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Posted on 12/10/2011 2:11:27 PM PST by NYer
Lutheranism is dead, or at least soon will be and it wants to take the Catholic Church with it.
Herbert W. Chilstrom is former presiding bishop of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Chilstrom has written an open letter to the Bishops of Minnesota asking them to accept gay 'marriage' becuase gays are like blacks or something.
May I share a word with all of you who now lead the Roman Catholic community of faith in Minnesota?
First, I would go to the wall to defend your right to work for the adoption of the so-called marriage protection amendment. Having said that, I must tell you that I believe you are making a significant mistake.
Over my 35 years as an active and retired bishop I have come to know hundreds of gay and lesbian persons. I have yet to meet even one who is opposed to the marriage of one man and one woman. After all, they are the daughters and sons of such unions.
What they cannot understand is why church leaders would oppose their fundamental desire and right to be in partnership with someone they love and respect who happens to be of the same gender and sexual orientation. They don't understand why they should not enjoy all the rights and privileges their straight counterparts take for granted.
More than a half century ago Father Francis Gilligan spoke out for equality for African American citizens of Minnesota. Though many argued on the basis of the Bible that these neighbors were inferior to others, Gilligan fought tirelessly for justice for these brothers and sisters.
In our generation homosexual persons are subject to the same discrimination. Their detractors often use the Bible and tradition as weapons of choice.
What strikes me about this letter is how utterly juvenile it is in its thinking and how insulting it is to the Catholic position.
Chilstrom challenges the Bishops to "Let me put out a challenge to each of you brothers. Invite 15 gay and lesbian persons from your respective areas, one at a time, to spend two hours with you."
In Chilstrom's mind, the problem is that we don't know and therefore don't like gay people. If we just got to know them, then all these problems would go away. How utterly juvenile. We know them, we love them, that is why we can never support this behavior becuase it destroys them body and soul.
It is no wonder that Lutheranism is dying a milquetoast death.
Ping!
Lutheranism isn’t dead, just the ELCA wing.
That’s the looney alphabet Lutherans. No Synod I consider real Lutherans, I think their concerns are more spiritual and less political.
Another attack on protestants, IMO.
There will never be such a thing as a same sex marriage.
Oh: They may call it that, bit is doesn’t exist.
The same privileges, the same rights’ sure but it isn’t a marriage.
WHY??? Because you dumb SOB’s the parts don’t fit in the right places.
It’s just that simple.
Christianity interferes with worship of the State. It must be watered down and devalued until it is nothing more than a social club. This is the mission of the Left.
Lutheranism isn’t dying. Just the ELCU.
I thank God that when my denomination goes bad I can depend on the Holy Spirit to bring me to a healthy church home.
ELCA of course.
These misguided folks are NOT Lutherans. At one time, I, too was ELCA. Left them 20 years ago for the REAL Lutheran church—the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.
Implying that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is Lutheranism is just like me saying that Madonna is a good example of a Catholic.
LCMS and WELS are examples of true Lutheranism.
>>I thank God that when my denomination goes bad I can depend on the Holy Spirit to bring me to a healthy church home.
I’m a United Methodist and I ask God for guidance on that question every day. When do I stop working to preserve the UMC as one of Christ’s churches, and when do I admit defeat and move on?
If the Lutheran and Roman Catholic churches both DIED...
WOULD GOD BE DEAD?...
-or-
Is God some religions doofus?
Faithful Lutherans can reliably be found in increasing numbers in communions of the Missouri and Wisconsion synods, the North American Lutheran Church and the LCMC.
It is true, the ELCA is a dead church walking, and, like TEC, in its death throes it is flailing and lashing out in all directions. Quite a disgusting and sorrowful sight. The Catholic bishops will of course ignore and graciously refrain from comment on this bizarre and absurd embarrassment to all real Christians. They know what has transpired in ELCA and have established increasing distance as a result.
so did I, I once lived in Iowa btw.
The Church cannot condone a class of relationship that always lacking fecundity and if sexual must involve sodomy or.
It’s a bit much for this goofus to invite the Catholic bishops to spend quality time with men who insert their erections into other men’s rectums, and women who orally stimulate eachothers’ vaginas.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
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I love my father, my father loves me. Should we be allowed to marry?
And, If not, why not?
The Church cannot condone a class of relationship that always lacks fecundity and if sexual must involve sodomy.
It’s a bit much for this Lutheran goofus to invite the Catholic bishops to spend quality time with men who insert their erections into other men’s rectums, and women who orally stimulate eachothers’ vaginas.
Indeed. Or like saying the PCUSA is a good example of Presbyterianism. PCA and OPC are examples of true Presbyterianism.
An old college professor, a scholar and historian of the period, proud of his Lutheran religion in its origins, and well versed in the Lutheran-Catholic debate in those times, put things succinctly.
“Today Lutheranism has become little more than Luther-ism.”
He said it clings to the name, but its faith has died.
Check out everything you can about the National Council of Churches. They are NOT Christian churches. They are the left wing of the Democrat party.
• African Methodist Episcopal Church
• The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
• Alliance of Baptists
• American Baptist Churches in the USA
• Diocese of the Armenian Church of America
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
• Church of the Brethren
• The Coptic Orthodox Church in North America
• The Episcopal Church
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
• Friends United Meeting
• Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
• Hungarian Reformed Church in America
• International Council of Community Churches
• Korean Presbyterian Church in America
• Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
• Mar Thoma Church
• Moravian Church in America Northern Province and Southern Province
• National Baptist Convention of America
• National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc.
• National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
• Orthodox Church in America
• Patriarchal Parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
• Philadelphia Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
• Polish National Catholic Church of America
• Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
• Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
• Reformed Church in America
• Serbian Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. and Canada
• The Swedenborgian Church
• Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
• Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
• United Church of Christ
• The United Methodist Church •
“And the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.”
Indeed. We need to asking the liberals why they discriminate against incest and polygamy.
I would like to invite you to come worship with me and attend Bible classes at our LCMS church and then allege that the faith has died.
the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.
Ditto....
If two or three or four or more people or living creatures *love* each other why not?
Exactly.
Homosexuality is not like race. Race is an immutable condition.
Are there conservative Methodist denominations? How about the Free Methodist Church? I don’t know very much about them but a former pastor of mine attended a Free Methodist college back in the 1960s and 1970s and said they were very conservative at that time.
[ “And the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.” ]
WHO?.. the ekklisia “the called out ones”.. Jn ch 10..
Jesus called them out of the sheep pen(s)...
History shows some just would not come out tho.. pity.. (Rev.)
Some just luv that old sheep pen.. maybe its the smell of spiritual urine.. (or something)..
You know Buddism, christian religion, Judaism, Islam.. same thing..
Even the Moose Hall is a kind of sheep pen.. or the Masons even Scientology..
For how long Bishop? The Gay married couples will be designing their own offspring.
ELCA deserves the attack. And I am Lutheran (not ELCA). We have been trying for decades to get them (their leadership) to drop their unorthodox views and come back to orthodoxy. Letters, meetings, discussions. It has gone nowhere.
The gentle touch has not worked for twenty years. They have become more adamant and stubborn and hard-hearted. They are losing congregations to other denominations.
Christianity is not democracy. We don’t get to twist words around and ignore others in order to create theology that never was there and is opposed to what God’s Word actually says.
Ohhh....... we can go one better than that.
About half a century ago, we invited (I use the term loosely) a whole bunch of homosexual men to join the priesthood and spend their entire lives with us. They sodomized the catechism classes, ran amok among the altar boys and cost the Church billions of dollars in settlements.
Sorry.......what was it you were saying, again?
And no nominally "Lutheran" denomination more richly deserves such an end.
If the old Swedes who made up the church I attended as a youngster could have seen what its merger into the ELCA - and subsequent apostasy - have wrought, they'd have gone into mufti as Norwegians and started attending the Missouri Synod services at the north end of town.
Mr. niteowl77
UMC has great people, but led astray by left wing leaders. I left 30 years ago. I don’t know why but left wingers rise to the top of these churches.
How does your local congegration determine who will be the pastor?
By popular vote.
Not from us Catholics...
“Christianity is not democracy. We don’t get to twist words around and ignore others in order to create theology that never was there and is opposed to what God’s Word actually says.”
And Rome looks on. :)
Sir, I agree wholeheartedly. The way the Lutheran church is designed is the source of this problem.
When these issues come up... I always wonder what Luther would think. What would he say and would his authority settle the matter for these ELCA Lutherans?
I’m an under-educated lapsed and relapsed cradle and cultural Catholic. The old German guy with the funny hat who appears at the window calls marriage a Sacrament, and like the cooking time for spaghetti it has to be just so: al dente (Man, woman, open to life, faithful, loving and a real pain in the butt when the dog in me wishes to wander).
I’d have lots of complaints, but I have to obey. ORTHODOXY. Obedience.
For me it’s simple... But I wonder about these ELCA Lutherans.
I imagine the poor old guy who started Lutheranism coming out with either a juicy German word three kilometers long... or a real short one ending in “eck”...
Why do these ELCA Lutherans call themselves Lutherans if what they now demand of their religion would’ve surely caused poor old Luther a conniption?
Why do they bother? Why cling to Christianity if they can’t obey even the simplest precepts?
John Calvin was not a Calvinist!
Martin Luther was not a Luthern!
SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!
“......they were first called Christians in Antioch” (Acts 11:26)
“Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian....” (Acts 26:28)
“Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed: but let him glorify God on this behalf.” (1 Peter 4:16)
That’s what I was going to say. There are Lutherans who still believe that the Bible is God’s Word and that the One who created us knows more about how we work than we do ourselves. There are even people within the ELCA who believe that; they just can’t get their leadership to give up on second-guessing Scripture.
I would give a word of caution to both the ELCA and the Catholic Church: if anybody preaches a Gospel other than the one preached by the Apostles - those who were with Jesus and received the approval of those who were with Jesus - then they are putting man’s understanding above God’s Word. The ELCA would say that men who are “enlightened” can reason their way around what Scripture says; the Catholic Church might say that men who are successors of Peter can. But it’s the same thing; one just counts on the academic credentials of the preacher and the other on the lineage.
Of course, there are things that have to be interpreted. I understand that. And the questions aren’t always easy or clear. But the goal always has to be to understand what God is saying through the Scriptures - not what we wish he would have said, or what we would have said if we were God (which, if we were to live by it, would be idolatry).
Ruth and Naomi took care of each other. There is no command against taking care of each other. But homosexual sex is forbidden in both the Old and New Testaments. If legal marriage was about simply taking care of each other - if that was the vested government interest in marriage - then mothers and fathers would be able to marry sons and daughters, sisters marry sisters, etc because they are committed to take care of them, live together, etc. But this ELCA pastor is not talking about gay and lesbian people being able to be roommates, take care of each other, or anything like that. He’s specifically talking about the ability to have the government recognize the couple as having a sexual, domestic relationship.
His argument is that if homosexuals desire it, it must be good. Anybody who knows the genuine Lutheran (Book of Concord) teachings on sin (especially original sin) would recognize that this is not Lutheranism at all. It is moral relativism. The harshest condemnation of Israel in the Old Testament was when it was stated that “Everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” And the New Testament has tons of places where it talks about the desires of the flesh and how we are not to satisfy those desires but are to be living sacrifices who have died and risen with Christ. Paul addresses some by saying that some of them were homosexual offenders but have been washed and redeemed from that futile way of life. Just like those who were adulterers or gossips have been redeemed from that when they “put on Christ”.
There are whole swaths of Lutheran doctrine that are being butchered by this so-called “Lutheran”.
“ELCA deserves the attack. And I am Lutheran (not ELCA). We have been trying for decades to get them (their leadership) to drop their unorthodox views and come back to orthodoxy. Letters, meetings, discussions. It has gone nowhere.
“The gentle touch has not worked for twenty years. They have become more adamant and stubborn and hard-hearted. They are losing congregations to other denominations.”
It’s wise to leave those false churches. As Christ said:
“And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6:11&version=NKJV
That verse shows that Jesus was not the meek and mild, passive hippy type that the left, Hollyweird and popular media like to extol.
I’ve spent hundreds of hours with gay males. That’s one of many reasons I’m steadfastly opposed to gay marriage. It makes no sense, demeans marriage and child-rearing, and is a failure from the word “go.”
That is a difficult question. I really feel for you. Keep in mind that we never give up on people. Even when we have to part ways with them we still love them and pray for them but recognize that only God can bring a person to faith. And He has tools that we don’t have. Sometimes real life knocks people in the head. Or bright lights from Heaven.
More from the ELCA.
Don't confuse the ELCA with Lutheranism. There's little resemblance.
Hot on the heels of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America’s decision to allow the appointment of non-celibate gays to the clergy, another prominent Christian denomination has decided this week to allow practicing drunkards in the pulpit.
Meeting in Las Vegas, leaders of the Evangelical Lukewarm Christians in Apostasy (ELCA-Not the Lutherans) voted in favor of giving their local congregations the authority to choose ministers or lay leaders who may be in “lifelong, monogamous relationships with alcohol.”
Said the denomination’s president, Ben Halifax, “Since the Lutheran ELCA has courageously decided to ignore the condemnation of homosexuals in 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, we figured it was time for our own denomination to ignore the verses’ reference to drunkards and immediately loosen our outdated and unloving restrictions on boozehounds.”
A motion to also include the acceptance of clerical fornicators, adulterers, idolators, thieves, revilers, and swindlers was tabled until next year’s meeting. . . .
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