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Missing the Missalís Mass of Potential (New Translation Comments) [Catholic Caucus]
CE.com ^ | December 16th, 2011 | Louie Verrecchio

Posted on 12/16/2011 7:45:36 PM PST by Salvation

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Some bishops and priests need to grow up -- my opinion.

If, we in the pews are happy, what's to be gained by all this needless discussion.

Bite the bullet and do it! Then thank God, because you will notice a change in yourselves, dear priests.

1 posted on 12/16/2011 7:45:53 PM PST by Salvation
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2 posted on 12/16/2011 8:01:04 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Your comments?


3 posted on 12/16/2011 8:03:08 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Old joke:

Q: What’s the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist?

A: You can negotiate with a terrorist ...


4 posted on 12/16/2011 8:11:57 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Salvation

Some folks simply need to be informed as to “why” the changes were made.

These translations are “formal”, whereas the prior translations were not.
Previously, they were only intend to “convey the intent”.

These formal translations are richer in meaning and content.

To be better informed, you may be interested in the Magnificat, Roman Missal Companion - $4

>http://www.magnificat.com/romanmissal/roman_missal_companion.asp<


5 posted on 12/16/2011 8:17:36 PM PST by G Larry ("I dream of a day when a man is judged by the content of his Character.")
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To: ArrogantBustard

LOL!


6 posted on 12/16/2011 8:23:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: G Larry

Good recommendation.


7 posted on 12/16/2011 8:24:39 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
It's all gnat droppings in pepper.
The crux of the Mass is the Transubstantiation. We have the privelege of taking in the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. Who cares if there is an extra word or two and we say "and with your spirit" instead of "and also with you"???

People are fixating on the WRONG THING. I wish people would just let it go. It's like the tax people who change the rules, regulations and forms for paying taxes. I just send the papers to the accountant, pay the taxes and get on with it.
Bells and whistles.

Now, aren't you glad you asked? :o):o)

8 posted on 12/16/2011 8:25:38 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Salvation

I noticed the word “consubstantial” last Sunday and was puzzled. Surely this is not an everyday English word. Surely, for something this significant, every word was chosen, discussed and agreed upon before publication.

My mother disagrees. She thinks that the Missal is meant to elevate our vocabulary and words like these are welcome. I love her dearly but disagree.


9 posted on 12/16/2011 8:37:28 PM PST by cicero2k
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To: cloudmountain

You are a riot. Thanks for your comments.


10 posted on 12/16/2011 8:39:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: cicero2k

Father Jeremy Driscoll of Mount Angel (close to where I live) gave a talk about the Vox Clara committee that he was on.

Tell your mom that Father Jeremy said we would notice three things.

Higher English register — we are no longer Catholic dummies.

Longer sentences — congruent with the Latin.

A greater adhesion to the Latin — your mom can take out her old 1962 Missal and the prayers are practically the same.

BTw.

Con = with in Latin
substantial = substance in Latin

So the phrase means that Christ (is with) has the same substance as God the Father.


11 posted on 12/16/2011 8:43:03 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: cicero2k

Is consubstantial less understandable than “one in being”? That’s not a phrase I have ever used outside of Mass.

I went over the new prayers with my 6th grade CCD students and we spent a few minutes on that word. I think they understand it now and 10 years from now they won’t remember it any other way.


12 posted on 12/16/2011 8:54:47 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Salvation
I am a simple woman. There were no altar girls when I grew up and now we women can participate in the Mass by being lectors and Eucharistic ministers. We can also be sacristans. How fortunate we are, I think, to be able to do these things.

Why do so many people cavil at some word changes? I had the chance to go to the Holy Land and we saw the Upper Room where the very first Mass was held. I got to see Calvary, Christ's Tomb...and we heard Mass there too. With those things on my mind WHY would I worry about some simple syntax changes?

Life is TOO SHORT to sweat the small stuff.

Ya know what I mean, jellybean?

13 posted on 12/16/2011 9:09:38 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: G Larry
These translations are “formal”, whereas the prior translations were not.

Previously, they were only intend to “convey the intent”.

Strictly speaking, the prior translations were intended to obscure and contradict the intent of the liturgy, not convey it. That's why the old hippies are so peeved now. That darned hierarchy in Rome is shoe-horning the meaning of the Mass back into it, undoing all their hard work of softening the Mass and making it meaningless.

Was that Bishop Troutman being referred to? That old heretic should protest the changes by taking a vow of silence. It would be a penance for him, alas, but not for us.

14 posted on 12/16/2011 9:34:31 PM PST by SamuraiScot
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To: Salvation

The worst thing about turning the altar around is that we now get to see the priest’s face, all the time. At first I thought it a good idea. The priest could share with us all what was going on. But it soon the priest became the “star”of the drama. Less about HIM, than him. So like any actor, he couldn’t resist interpreting his role. Deadly if he lacks a compelling personality. Dangerous if he does.


15 posted on 12/16/2011 9:36:18 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Salvation

“Again HE took the cup, gave it to his disciples...’’ It’s worked for 2,000 years just as Jesus said it, correct? It’s all I ever needed to hear. Why the navel-gazing and endless debate? My memory isn’t always the best at my age but didn’t OUR LORD speak of the ‘’prattling of many tongues ‘’ meaning those who would confuse or distort HIS message? I agree with ‘’cloudmountain’’. ‘’gnat droppings(I like that.)


16 posted on 12/16/2011 9:37:59 PM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Salvation; cicero2k
Consubstantial is also the key word in the Creed. It is the Latin translation of the Greek word devised by the Council of Nicaea to distinguish the teaching of the Church from that of the archpriest Arius.
It is a technical term, criticized by Arius and his friends because it is not in the Bible. It is a shibboleth. If you say it, you are a Catholic; if you don't, you are an Arian. And if you are an Arian, you do not believe that Jesus was truly God, but a highly exalted creature of God.
17 posted on 12/16/2011 9:44:29 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: jmacusa

It never was a cup it was a chalice.


18 posted on 12/16/2011 9:45:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Ah, hate to disagree with you Salvation but every Mass I go to it’s ‘’cup’’. The definition of the word ‘’chalice’’ is ‘’a drinking cup’’.


19 posted on 12/16/2011 9:52:43 PM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
Remember the line about more accurate to the Latin. The 'cup' that Christ would have used was a two-handled chalice. So they are being true to the history -- higher language -- and Latin accuracy.

 
 

20 posted on 12/16/2011 9:58:46 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jmacusa

The reason is that words have meaning. The first meaning of chalice is, of course, cup, from the Latin “calix.” But during the middle ages, it acquired a special meaning: a cup for the Eucharistic wine.

In other words, in using “cup” with the general meaning, the translators ignored the special meaning. Not just “a” cup, but a cup used as a sacred vessel. When a priest is ordained, he is given his own chalice. This is a symbol of his office. It is sacred, and therefore normally made of precious metals.

Now how has this worked out in practice this “demotion” of chalice to cup? I have seen priests using glass or even wood for the chalice. Getting closer to Jesus, being simply like him? Or just de-emphasizing the purpose of the “cup.” A bit like using coca-cola instead of wine, or a saltine cracker for the host. Now you are downnplaying the doctrine of transubstantiation, of the Real Presence.
It happens. It happened during the reformation, it happened after Vatican II, when iconaclasts take matter into their hands.


21 posted on 12/16/2011 9:58:50 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS

Thanks, Robby!


22 posted on 12/16/2011 10:00:29 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

I can send you the link to Father Jeremy’s talks if you wish. Just FReepmail me.


23 posted on 12/16/2011 10:15:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ArrogantBustard

ROFL!! Nice!! LOL!!


24 posted on 12/17/2011 1:19:27 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation

If the priests are so attached to the old text that they cannot pray with the new, they’re too attached to the text and not attached enough to prayer.


25 posted on 12/17/2011 1:26:26 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Salvation

I am very thankful that my parish priest has a wonderful sense of humor in regards to the recent English changes. When last Sunday when he did the monthly children’s mass and was asking the kids questions, he said that he needs a person who knows a little theology. LOL :)=^..^=


26 posted on 12/17/2011 3:31:12 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: RobbyS

RobbyS,
you’ve brought up one of the most important points here, the one, as another put it, that gets all the aging hippies’ codwallopers in a bunch. The old phrase: Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. As we pray, so we believe. As we believe, so we live. The changes to the translation of the Novus Ordo reflect a more accurate, more reverent, more Catholic statement of belief. The fourth grade terminology of the previous translation, whatever the motives, couldn’t convey as well. When the language used at Mass does not give reverence where it is due, this is likely to encourage people to hold less reverence during Mass, and where it is being held. Language matters, and whatever the genuine motive, the outcome, these last forty years, in part, of reduced care for where they are, in the presence of the Lord, and what they are doing, have hurt people, whether they recognize it or not. At the very least, the changes put us on par with the rest of the world in use of language.

One of the places I have been for Mass has a monsignor who is very advanced in years. Where he had previously spent probably forty or so of his years saying the Novus Ordo to the point of complete comfort with it, he now uses the new Roman Missal, paying greater attention to every word. While he isn’t one of those who had the propensity to, um, “improvise,” he’s making sure he does the red and says the black, probably more than in years past. This is a Good Thing, for him, and for his parish, and for the folks attending periodically there, such as myself.

I am in complete agreement with those who would like to see this as a first step, on a road to greater reverence and tradition in general Catholic life, whether that means Mass eventually returning to the Traditional Latin Mass (my stated preference), or a vernacular version of same. This first step is one I didn’t think I’d live to see. The modernist crowd WILL LOSE, if for no other reason than the FACT that there ARE eternal Truths, much to their dismay. And while this broad brush may not cover all in the category of displeasure over the third translation, I say, good, if they don’t like it. They’ll get used to it, and hopefully, one day, see why they were wrong, and realize the errors of their ways.


27 posted on 12/17/2011 4:27:39 AM PST by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: Salvation

I think most of the disciples would have said “cup” rather than “chalice.” Especially the one on whom the Church was built.
Pretty sure Jesus would not have cared then and does not now, what you call it, as long as you get the ox out of the ditch.


28 posted on 12/17/2011 5:13:19 AM PST by Lady Lucky
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To: RobbyS
The reason is that words have meaning. The first meaning of chalice is, of course, cup, from the Latin “calix.” But during the middle ages, it acquired a special meaning: a cup for the Eucharistic wine. In other words, in using “cup” with the general meaning, the translators ignored the special meaning. Not just “a” cup, but a cup used as a sacred vessel. When a priest is ordained, he is given his own chalice. This is a symbol of his office. It is sacred, and therefore normally made of precious metals.

Exactly. The liberals might use 'mug', or Dixie cup. What's the difference, eh?

29 posted on 12/17/2011 5:34:26 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Mad Dawg
If the priests are so attached to the old text that they cannot pray with the new, they’re too attached to the text and not attached enough to prayer.

You're just saying this because it's true.

30 posted on 12/17/2011 5:35:19 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: cloudmountain
Life is TOO SHORT to sweat the small stuff.

Both too short, and too long, if you get my drift.

I wasn't upset about the old version, and I'm not upset about the new. Also not upset about Spanish (Spain-type, Mexican, or South American) or Vietnamese, or anything at all, really.

That said, I like the vocabulary of the new translation. It Pays to Enrich Your Word Power, and free SAT review is not to be sneezed at.

31 posted on 12/17/2011 6:43:05 AM PST by Tax-chick (Just let the people vote.)
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To: Salvation

Christ gave us the sacrament of Communion at The Last Supper, a humble repast above a modest inn and a simple meal of bread and wine. You mean to tell me HE would have had something as expensive looking at what is in that photo?


32 posted on 12/17/2011 7:16:28 AM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: sayuncledave

Truer words could not be better said.

The one really big test to come will be come Christmas Eve/Christmas Day when the Catholics who are better known as the “C,E,A, and P” Catholics who come at best a few times a year will either notice the change for the better and return or be caught a bit on the “flat-footed side” of NOT being prepared. Time will tell.


33 posted on 12/17/2011 7:18:43 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: sayuncledave

“I am in complete agreement with those who would like to see this as a first step, on a road to greater reverence and tradition in general Catholic life, whether that means Mass eventually returning to the Traditional Latin Mass (my stated preference), or a vernacular version of same. This first step is one I didn’t think I’d live to see. The modernist crowd WILL LOSE, if for no other reason than the FACT that there ARE eternal Truths, much to their dismay. And while this broad brush may not cover all in the category of displeasure over the third translation, I say, good, if they don’t like it. They’ll get used to it, and hopefully, one day, see why they were wrong, and realize the errors of their ways.”

We can only HOPE and PRAY that what you said in the end of your posting will come to past in the course of time.


34 posted on 12/17/2011 7:21:38 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: jmacusa

If the last Supper was a Passover meal it wouldn’t have been just bread and wine, would it?


35 posted on 12/17/2011 8:49:16 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Mad Dawg

As A Catholic of the ‘’old school’’ this is how it was always explained to me. The bread and wine representing the body and blood of Christ. These were after all simple, rather poor Hebrew men of the 1st.AD. Perhaps in reality maybe a fish or two, some dates and other fruits common to that time and place.


36 posted on 12/17/2011 8:57:43 AM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa; Mad Dawg

Jesus and the Apostles were guests of someone for the Passover meal (which includes a whole roast lamb and several cups of wine, among other fixed menu items). Surely the householder would have brought out his family’s best Seder setting. It might have been very nice - the good inherited silver - or might have been basic, if the family had fallen on hard times and pawned the good stuff.

However, the fact that the person owned a house with “a large upper room, well-furnished,” as the Gospel says, suggests the former more than the latter. Although Jesus lived as a mendicant during his public ministry, he was a guest of the well-off numerous times; he was provided for “out of their own resources” by various women of Galilee; and the Apostles had their own funds (carried by Judas Iscariot).

In summary, although it’s fine for us to have our own images of Jesus’s material circumstances and other aspects of His earthly life, those images ought to be consistent with the texts of the Gospels.


37 posted on 12/17/2011 9:12:06 AM PST by Tax-chick (Just let the people vote.)
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To: jmacusa

well, the synoptics present it as a Seder, FWIW.


38 posted on 12/17/2011 10:00:58 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Amen to your post. The new presidential prayers (Priest’s prayers) are so reverent, so prayerful.


39 posted on 12/17/2011 11:30:33 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: sayuncledave

**Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. As we pray, so we believe. As we believe, so we live.**

So right. And some of these disagreeing priests are showing their true colors. LOL!


40 posted on 12/17/2011 11:35:03 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Lady Lucky; AnAmericanMother

Are you a linguist?

Remember the three things happening with the new translation:

Higher linguistic register = chalice rather than cup
Greater adherance to the Latin
Longer sentence (the way Latin was written)


41 posted on 12/17/2011 11:37:15 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jmacusa

You never know. Remember he sent two disciples ahead to follow a MAN carrying a water jar. (Women, in those days, usually fetched the water.) Then they were to ask him if the Master could eat the Passover at his upper room.

Perhaps the man provided the chalice, the bread, the bitter herbs, the roast lamb......remember this was a Passover meal. Oh, can’t forget the wine! LOL!


42 posted on 12/17/2011 11:41:42 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jmacusa
For your information here are some links about a Passover meal with roast lamb (Commerating the Passover when the Israelites ate lamb, marked their doorposts and lintels with the blood of the lamb and ate the meal while ready to journey out of Egypt.)

A Christian Passover Seder for Holy Thursday (or tonight)
Seminarians experience a key Jewish rite [Seder Meal]
What every Christian needs to know about Passover [Passover starts this evening]
Christian seders draw concern

43 posted on 12/17/2011 11:46:09 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Mad Dawg
Thus we have the new words at Communion time (words (Lamb of God) that converted Scott Hahn, a Presbyterian)

"Behold the LAMB of God,
Behold HIM who takes away the sins of the world.
Blessed are those called to the supper of the LAMB."

44 posted on 12/17/2011 11:52:30 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for the info Salvation. It seems ironic in a way. The thread is talking about the new liturgy and it’s translations, words used, etc. and we’re doing pretty much the same thing. Yes of course The Last Supper was on the night Passover and being observant Jews Jesus and the 12 disciples would be partaking. I guess I’m just looking at it from the perspective of the Catholic teaching of the ‘’old school’’ nuns and priests of long ago who wanted us to focus on the meaning of it— that Jesus knew what he had to do, though he wished he didn’t have to(i.e ‘’the bitter cup’’). No doubt in every sense of history and tradition it would have been a traditional Hebrew Seder of that era.


45 posted on 12/17/2011 11:56:31 AM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

Yes, we have been doing much the same and it is a great conversation. Thanks.


46 posted on 12/17/2011 12:05:57 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

:-)


47 posted on 12/17/2011 12:12:10 PM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Salvation

The real problem is that many of the priests simply cannot read properly. The lectors when trained properly know how to read to the congregation quite well. It is the priests who have essentially memorized it all and now find themselves having to read the new translation to the congregation. They should have been reading it over quite a few times in advance of the change being made. Instead, they stand there in front of the congregation and demonstrate their inability to read out loud from a large print book. Some of these priests come across as first grade children reading from a Dick and Jane reader.


48 posted on 12/17/2011 12:42:12 PM PST by CdMGuy
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To: sayuncledave
Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi

This says so much in so few words. It works in reverse, too. If we live bad lives, we cease to believe, and we stop communicating with God. Sin cuts off the source of our existence, so we are dead men/women walking. Zombies in the true sense. I have always been pretty liberal in my opinions, but paradoxically, because I grew up in a Protestant environment, I never quite bought into the thinking of the Catholic modernizers. I admired Kueng until I took the time to read carefully one of his books, and thought to myself, not so fast. I find I have much more sympathy with Karl Barth and Bonhoeffer his disciple.Especially Bonhoeffer, a martyr to Christ. I hate those who lie about Pius XII. Don't they know that when Pacelli was negotiating with the Nazis, he had his legs cut out from under him by the German bishops who were fawning over Hitler? The German Church,like the philosophers kept being blindsided by Hitler.

49 posted on 12/17/2011 12:46:30 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: jmacusa

Well, John said it was NOT the passover meal. In any case, I have always thought, in any case, that it was something done after the meal, while they were all still seated at table. Something like: well, we have been following the old Law. Now I give you something new. something to remember me by, the first meal in the new kingdom.


50 posted on 12/17/2011 12:50:47 PM PST by RobbyS
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