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Polygamy and me: Growing up Mormon
Vancouver Sun ^ | Dec. 16, 2011 | Maggie Rayner

Posted on 12/17/2011 11:15:37 AM PST by Colofornian

When my family lived in Richmond, a group of Mormon fundamentalists from Bountiful, near Creston, visited our mainstream Mormon congregation extolling the practice of polygamy, also called the principle or plural marriage. They were looking for wives to add to their collections. They targeted families who had young girls.

My oldest sister at 16, with blond hair, blue eyes and a blossoming body, was a magnet for the young men and 19-year-old missionaries of the Church. One Sunday after Sunday school, I watched an older man from Bountiful rush over in the parking lot to open our station wagon door for her. He left the wife he had with him struggling to open their car door on her own, a baby on her hip, a diaper bag over her shoulder, and two toddlers clinging to her legs. I was 10 years old. I giggled at his ardour, finding his behaviour ridiculous, while a queasiness roiled in my stomach.

My parents weren’t swayed by the arguments to take up a polygamous lifestyle and my two sisters and I were saved from the principle.

Even so, my mother explained, “Polygamy is a hardship for men.” This did not make any sense to me.

My mother told me Joseph Smith introduced polygamy in the 1830s, soon after he founded the Mormon Church, because of the shortage of men and the abundance of women. “There were a lot of widows and older women immigrants, that worked as housekeepers and servants, joining the Church,” she said, “It was practical for the men to take more than one wife to ensure the older women were taken care of.”

Joseph Smith started the new church in Palmyra, N.Y., naming it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which came to be known as the Mormons. A charismatic and compelling young leader, when he spoke, people listened. Smith claimed to receive visions from God who told him what to do.

My mother, a devout Mormon, accepted the principle as being ordained by God using Smith as his messenger, yet was relieved that she didn’t have to practise it herself. At least not here on Earth. When the Church congregation moved to Salt Lake City to escape persecution for their beliefs and the consequences of their violent activities, the leaders renounced plural marriage in 1890, to adhere to the law and gain statehood for Utah.

The renunciation of polygamy split the membership in two. The mainstream Mormons publicly agreed to stop the practice, although the last plural marriage recorded in the Covenant House where the marriages took place was nearly 30 years later. My great-grandfather, one of the mainstream Mormons who immigrated to Cardston, Alta., had a wife who lived on one side of town, and another who lived on the other side. Neither wife was happy sharing a husband.

Mormon fundamentalists refused to comply with the leaders’ direction and continued to live the principle. The Church hired a public relations firm to distance themselves politically from any association with the Mormon fundamentalists.

The Church’s current position on polygamy, not widely known among younger Mormons, let alone non-members, is that God suspended the practice and temporarily disallowed plural marriage to spare the membership legal and political problems. The president in Salt Lake City, considered a living prophet by members today, could, at any time, give the word, and Latter-day Saint men would once more be called upon to marry multiple wives.

My parents believed the Mormon scriptures written by Joseph Smith, which promised that if they remained devout, dedicated their lives and money to the Church, after they died they would become a god and goddess together and rule over many worlds. My father, however, would be given additional eternal wives. My mother often quoted Smith on the afterlife, as if trying to prepare herself: “Seven women will cling to the coat tails of one man.”

Personally, I believed what my mother told me about polygamy was a crock. For one thing, in the 1800s there were more men than women available to participate in plural marriage. The women chosen as plural wives were young and desirable, not older women in need of care. The wives, and the child labour force they birthed, built and worked the homesteads and ranches that were the foundation for the wealthy corporate and political empire the Mormons would become.

Husbands tended to be away recruiting new members for the Church and courting other women, only visiting each wife long enough to ensure another child. If a wife were a favourite, her husband might allocate more time with her.

While I was growing up, the books I read were censored, limited to Church-approved literature. My parents dedicated themselves to breaking my child’s spirit to accept their beliefs. The friendships I was permitted and the activities I could pursue were all closely monitored. They were unsuccessful. While I was physically present at the services and activities I was forced to attend under fear of punishment, my mind refused to be taken prisoner.

When I left home and had the freedom to question, and seek out history books not sanctioned by the Church, I read with astonishment, and a growing sadness for my mother’s and father’s gullibility, of the chronological events surrounding the introduction of plural marriage.

Smith, while married to his first wife Emma, impregnated a 16-year-old serving girl he was having an affair with. He received a special “revelation” from God sanctioning polygamy, which gave him permission to secretly wed her as his second wife in 1833, an illegal act. When Emma protested, Joseph received another special revelation from God, advising Emma if she didn’t agree to the marriage, and give it her blessing, she would be damned for eternity.

Smith shared these revelations with his trusted Church leaders who began the practice in secret, long before the principle of plural marriage was introduced to the general membership. Marrying multiple wives, and wife swapping, went on among the men in leadership positions. Smith took 33 wives in 10 years, 11 of them married to other men at the time. If any of the women were reluctant to accept his proposal, he used the threat of eternal damnation to gain their compliance.

Dissension occurred among the general membership when they became aware of the secret behaviour of their Church leaders with the female members. When the leaders encouraged them to begin the practice of plural marriage themselves, only about a quarter of them complied.

After reading the sequence of events, I didn’t have to be a Rhodes scholar or a Harvard graduate to find Smith’s revelations regarding polygamy suspect.

Former members and I, no longer in the Mormon fold, speculated, “Do you think Joseph Smith and the second president of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young, who had 55 wives, were sex addicts?” Historically, men in positions of leadership, with power and influence, have felt a certain entitlement to, well, more. Many developed an insatiable hunger for power and sex that led to the corruption of their initial ideals.

My mother wouldn’t have known what a sex addict was or how to recognize one. While she was growing up, there was little, if any, information available about sexuality. The anatomically correct names used to describe intimate parts of the body weren’t common knowledge. Frank discussion of carnal desire or marital relations did not take place. She told me the intimacies of married life came as a surprise to her on their three-day honeymoon in Calgary, after she married my father in the Cardston temple.

I can’t, as a result, fault my mother for believing Smith was following godly direction rather than earthly appetites. She simply didn’t have the knowledge or experience to make informed decisions on what she was taught, and therefore believed, without question.

Whether the same can be said for my father, I don’t know. He held the highest level of priesthood conferred, only on men, by the Mormon Church, and the respected position of a bishop with his own congregation. He never discussed the practice of polygamy with me. I do know, however, that under Mormon doctrine, as a man, he would always be on the more favourable side of the religion.

Maggie Rayner lives in Vancouver.


TOPICS: Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: flds; inman; lds; mormon; polygamy
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From the article: My mother, a devout Mormon, accepted the principle as being ordained by God using Smith as his messenger, yet was relieved that she didn’t have to practise it herself. At least not here on Earth...The Church’s current position on polygamy, not widely known among younger Mormons, let alone non-members, is that God suspended the practice and temporarily disallowed plural marriage to spare the membership legal and political problems. The president in Salt Lake City, considered a living prophet by members today, could, at any time, give the word, and Latter-day Saint men would once more be called upon to marry multiple wives.

Yup. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie taught in the book Mormon Doctrine -- republished in the 1970s by the Lds church, that the Mormon god(s) would at the very least re-introduce polygamy when the Mormon jesus returned.

From the article: My parents believed the Mormon scriptures written by Joseph Smith, which promised that if they remained devout, dedicated their lives and money to the Church, after they died they would become a god and goddess together and rule over many worlds. My father, however, would be given additional eternal wives. My mother often quoted Smith on the afterlife, as if trying to prepare herself: “Seven women will cling to the coat tails of one man.”

In Mormonism, Mormon males serve as a "substitute" of sorts for Jesus Christ as "the Way" (John 14:6).

From the article: When I left home and had the freedom to question, and seek out history books not sanctioned by the Church, I read with astonishment, and a growing sadness for my mother’s and father’s gullibility, of the chronological events surrounding the introduction of plural marriage. Smith, while married to his first wife Emma, impregnated a 16-year-old serving girl he was having an affair with. He received a special “revelation” from God sanctioning polygamy, which gave him permission to secretly wed her as his second wife in 1833, an illegal act. When Emma protested, Joseph received another special revelation from God, advising Emma if she didn’t agree to the marriage, and give it her blessing, she would be damned for eternity. Smith shared these revelations with his trusted Church leaders who began the practice in secret, long before the principle of plural marriage was introduced to the general membership. Marrying multiple wives, and wife swapping, went on among the men in leadership positions. Smith took 33 wives in 10 years, 11 of them married to other men at the time. If any of the women were reluctant to accept his proposal, he used the threat of eternal damnation to gain their compliance.

The 11 women still married to their husbands that Smith took as "wives" is common knowledge. What's surprising is how that doesn't phase contemporary Mormons. Even on threads like these, Mormons don't content that reality. They accept it. (IOW, they "sanction" it).

1 posted on 12/17/2011 11:15:40 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: Former members and I, no longer in the Mormon fold, speculated, “Do you think Joseph Smith and the second president of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young, who had 55 wives, were sex addicts?” Historically, men in positions of leadership, with power and influence, have felt a certain entitlement to, well, more. Many developed an insatiable hunger for power and sex that led to the corruption of their initial ideals. My mother wouldn’t have known what a sex addict was or how to recognize one.

So even this former Mormon recognized the signs of 19th century sex addiction as practiced by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other Mormon males. This was their "guarantee" of having sex every night. It ruled them inwardly.

2 posted on 12/17/2011 11:18:08 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: All
From the article: My mother told me Joseph Smith introduced polygamy in the 1830s, soon after he founded the Mormon Church, because of the shortage of men and the abundance of women. “There were a lot of widows and older women immigrants, that worked as housekeepers and servants, joining the Church,” she said, “It was practical for the men to take more than one wife to ensure the older women were taken care of.”...Personally, I believed what my mother told me about polygamy was a crock. For one thing, in the 1800s there were more men than women available to participate in plural marriage. The women chosen as plural wives were young and desirable, not older women in need of care. The wives, and the child labour force they birthed, built and worked the homesteads and ranches that were the foundation for the wealthy corporate and political empire the Mormons would become.

A crock? Yes. This former Mormon women discovered the "crock" stories her Mom had been told (lied to), simply passed on by rote. This former Mormon took the initiative to study for herself -- and found it was all false.

According to the Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 224-225: [LDS} "Apostle” John A. Widtsoe, who was born during the polygamy years (early 1870s) stated:

’We do not understand why the Lord commanded the practice of plural marriage.’ (Evidences and Reconciliations, 1960, p.393). One of the most popular explanations is that the church practiced polygamy because there was a surplus of women. The truth is, however, that there were less women than men. Apostle Widtsoe admitted that there was no surplus of women”: 'The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seems always to have been more males than females in the Church.’.. The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church. Indeed, the excess in Utah has usually been larger than for the whole United States, ... there was no surplus of women'” (Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, 1960, pp.390-92," as cited in Changing World, pp. 224-225).

3 posted on 12/17/2011 11:22:36 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

Must be awfully lonely on your island.


4 posted on 12/17/2011 11:39:07 AM PST by CARTOUCHE ( Civil War, the sequel, coming to a city near you. Watch for previews 11/2012)
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To: Colofornian

Theres some thing with Myth Romney.. he doesn’t question these things.

He tricks democrats into voting for him..
Mormon leadership has always been very “tricky”..
The whole religion is a “con”...


5 posted on 12/17/2011 11:44:59 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Colofornian
""""So even this former Mormon recognized the signs of 19th century sex addiction as practiced by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other Mormon males. This was their "guarantee" of having sex every night. It ruled them inwardly.""""""

The "Guarantee", as you called it, is right on. That is the only reason they started this practice. They recruited vulnerable young women, poor, without a family to care for them, widowed young, some prostitutes I'm sure, and most of all illiterate.

How anyone would allow anyone to use the brain that G_d gave them, over to such a cult religion. Not allowed to think for themselves.

I thank the Lord that I had the parents I had, dad always told us "G_D gave you a brain, use it.", meaning don't let anyone else do your thinking for you.

Today, there is no excuse for remaining in the Mormon cult, the FACTS are out there, the testimonies of Exmo's, the truths of all the criminal activity and murders done by the LDS. There is no excuse, to remain in it is a deliberate consensual defiance of the one true G_D, and HE will not be mocked, guaranteed.

LDS. come out, you have no freedom if you are not allowed to think and everything is a SECRET.

6 posted on 12/17/2011 11:54:43 AM PST by annieokie
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To: Colofornian

I don’t think he was a sex addict, but simply a normal horn dog like the rest of us men who conned his way into reviving an ancient practice that goes back thousands and thousands of years.


7 posted on 12/17/2011 11:59:12 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: CARTOUCHE

Why? Because I don’t have 27 or 56 spouses?


8 posted on 12/17/2011 12:00:18 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: CARTOUCHE
Must be awfully lonely on your island.

How can you see with your head stuck in the sand?
9 posted on 12/17/2011 12:01:13 PM PST by SoConPubbie
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To: hosepipe

The one “Mormon” issue that the press will NOT make an issue out of (unless they are desperate) if Romney is nominated will be polygamy—largely because it appeals to their libertinistic tendencies. However, if he is nominated the American public will receive a non-stop education on the dark and “zany” sides of Mormonism.


10 posted on 12/17/2011 12:01:20 PM PST by newheart (Newt's a loose cannon, but at least he knows who the real target is.)
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To: Colofornian

Question: If Romney becomes president, will he fight for polygamy? Just look the other way when it brought up in a court (and it WILL come up)?

Hummmm. Sister wives, baby.


11 posted on 12/17/2011 12:07:52 PM PST by Reagan69 (I supported Sarah Palin and all I got was a lousy DVD !)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
I don’t think he was a sex addict, but simply a normal horn dog like the rest of us men who conned his way...

Conned? Yes.

Do "normal horn dog...men" con 14 yo girls into having sex with them as they are already married?

Sorry. Yes, it happens. No, not very "normally."

Click on link below to hear a teen girl in a YouTube "representation" of Helen Mar Kimball, a 14 yo that Joseph Smith conned into having sex with him. Helen Mar's father was asked by Joseph Smith to give up his first wife to Smith. Heber C. Kimball, instead, traded his 14 yo daughter to Smith.

Joseph Smith's 14 year old bride Helen Mar Kimball 100

"Normal horn dog...men" don't promise a "celestial kingdom" to 14 yo girls and their family to get them to sleep with them. Sex addicts and pedophiles do.

12 posted on 12/17/2011 12:12:54 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

“I don’t think he was a sex addict, but simply a normal horn dog like the rest of us men who conned his way into reviving an ancient practice that goes back thousands and thousands of years.”

Haw! That’s what I always thought. Thanks for lightening things up on a Saturday around the here!


13 posted on 12/17/2011 12:14:18 PM PST by ngat
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To: hosepipe

Theres some thing with Myth Romney.. he doesn’t question these things.

DAMN straight!!


14 posted on 12/17/2011 12:14:39 PM PST by Segovia
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To: Reagan69; hosepipe; Segovia; All
Question: If Romney becomes president, will he fight for polygamy? Just look the other way when it brought up in a court (and it WILL come up)?

Just posted: Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy]

If you go to this link -- and then click on the Web page upon which it's based -- you can scroll down to section: "Mitt Romney and Polygamy"...then go to articles linked even from there.

15 posted on 12/17/2011 12:47:41 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

We have a winner! What, after all, kept the “church” from simply tithing for the upkeep of these women or having them work at jobs to support themselves?


16 posted on 12/17/2011 12:47:46 PM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Colofornian

Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God ... or our God is wrong, and you need to find a new religion.

You can either play stupid or deal with it!


17 posted on 12/17/2011 12:52:39 PM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
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To: Colofornian

Am I the only one who sees a disturbing similarity between Mormons and Muslims re. the domination of women and polygamy being explained as ‘good’ for women?
Any religion that has harems at its core is too creepy and disturbing, IMO.


18 posted on 12/17/2011 12:54:53 PM PST by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: teppe
Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God

Reality check #1: Jews discarded polygamy a couple of millenia ago.

Reality check #2: What God allows, and what he ordains and approves of, are two different things. Notice that Abraham was forced to expel Hagar and Ishmael, and God doesn't even even recognize Ishmael as Abraham's son: "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love ..." Gn 22:2 That means that God didn't recognize Abraham and Hagar's relationship as a marriage, because God doesn't recognize Ishmael as Abraham's legitimate offspring.

Reality check #3: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, Jessica, Bethany, and Allison.

Reality check #4: Polygamy was unknown among Jews, among Greeks, and among Romans in NT times, and has never been endorsed or permitted by the Christian church. It's not a matter of some mythical "apostasy"; it was never permitted in the first place. Even serial polygamy (a/k/a divorce and remarriage) was not permitted.

19 posted on 12/17/2011 1:09:19 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: Colofornian

I didn’t know there was a 14 year old girl involved. That’s a separate issue for sure, but the promise of a “celestial kingdom” is all part of the con.

How many wives over 16 or 18, or whatever the acceptable age of consent was at that time, did Mr. Smith have? Were they all 14 when he bedded them?


20 posted on 12/17/2011 1:09:28 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Colofornian

I don’t discount Myth because hes a Mormon...

Its because he made a career out of tricking democrats..
and is now trying to trick republicans..

Hes a political “grifter”..


21 posted on 12/17/2011 1:11:44 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Colofornian

We’ve have a homosexual Muslim Communist illegal alien as president. I guess it’s ok for a Mormon cultist, Satanist, pedophile, or other kind of freak.


22 posted on 12/17/2011 1:11:57 PM PST by Dogbert41 (Israel is real:))
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To: teppe
Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

The Bible makes NO mention of Isaac being a "polygamist." (Joseph Smith made it up when he made up D&C 132 to convince his wife, Emma, that his extra bed-partners was God-ordained)

Jacob? He became a polygamist via deception. Now if you think deception is the route to institute another form of marriage upon, no wonder you've embraced deception across the board.

Abraham? (see next post)

23 posted on 12/17/2011 1:44:59 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: teppe; Campion
Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

So. Was Abram a polygamist? No.

Q. Why not?
A. Concubines were not considered "wives." And the only one who ever references Hagar as a "wife" is Sarai/Sarah. (But we never know if Abram slept with Hagar even more than once).

Q. Who continues to deem Hagar a servant/slave after sleeping with Abram?
A. …Abram,
…Sarai,
…the Angel of the Lord (who some say is the pre-incarnated Son of God),
…Moses (Gen. 25),
…even the apostle Paul (Gal. 4:21-31),
…and Hagar herself.

Sarai labels Hagar as a gift as a "wife" to Abram, but I question if a woman has the authority to "consent" on behalf of a slave.
Hagar was considered a slave both "before" and "after" sleeping with Abram. Why does the "before" matter? Just as a minor cannot "consent" to sex, a slave is in no better situation to "consent" to--or deny--her master's commands for sex. And in this case, the command didn't come from her husband, Abram; it came from her mistress (female word for "master"), Sarai (Sarai is twice referenced as "mistress"--Gen. 16:4,8).

Why does the "after" matter?

Because it shows she didn't become a "transformed" person--from slave to wifely status! Gen. 16:6,8,9; 21:11; 25:12; and Gal. 4:21-31 all are still referencing her as either a "slave" (twice in 21:11), "servant," or one who was told by the Angel to submit to her mistress (female word for "master"). By Gen. 25, Abraham is married to Keturah with no mention of Hagar (25:1) and is then buried with Sarah (25:10).

So, to summarize: If we were to call all the key witnesses to the stand, and hear what they have to say:

Q Hagar, after Sarai gave you to Abram and Ishmael was conceived, did you still acknowledge Sarai as your "mistress" in your conversation with the Angel of the Lord? [female master]
A Yes. (Gen. 16:8)

Q Sarai, when you were in your early nineties when Isaac was a toddler, how did you characterize Hagar?
A I told Abraham, Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son, Isaac. (Gen. 21:10)

Q Abraham, after Sarah gave you Hagar and you slept with her, how did you characterize Hagar?
A I told Sarah, as mistress (master) of her servant, Your servant is in your hands. Do with her whatever you think best. (Gen. 16:6)

Q When Sarah began to mistreat her servant, Hagar, did you intervene like what we might expect a husband to do?
A No. Hagar was Sarah's servant.

Q Angel of the Lord, when you called to Hagar after she conceived Ishmael, how did you reference her?
A Servant of Sarai (Gen. 16:8)

Q And when you conversed with Hagar, did you, Angel of the Lord, acknowledge that she was released from her servant role to Sarai?
A No. In fact, I told her Go back to your mistress and submit to her. (Gen. 16:9)

Q Moses, since you wrote Genesis, how did you identify Hagar in her last reference of that book? Did you link her to Abraham?
A No. I identified her as "Sarah's maidservant" (Gen. 25:12).

Q So in that same passage, you link Ishmael to Abraham, but you link Hagar only to Sarah?
A Yes.

Q Apostle, Paul How did the Holy Spirit lead you to interpret the Old Covenant as expressed through Abraham?
A For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother...Now you brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? 'Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.' Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (Gal. 4:21-31)

24 posted on 12/17/2011 1:46:28 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
I didn’t know there was a 14 year old girl involved. That’s a separate issue for sure, but the promise of a “celestial kingdom” is all part of the con. How many wives over 16 or 18...

Smith conned a 14 yo, 2 16 yo, and 3 17 yo into "marrying" him...

Half of these six he did in the same month -- showing how much into "girls" he was as a man in his late 30s!

25 posted on 12/17/2011 1:49:24 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

No my Christian Friend. Because your efforts should be in uplifiting spiritual pursuits, not denigrating others that have no power over you or your life’s path. Proselytize those who have not heard. There is strength in well-doing and well-spaeaking of others. Pulling at threads in your carpet has laid it bare. Give it up and move on.


26 posted on 12/17/2011 2:03:53 PM PST by CARTOUCHE ( Civil War, the sequel, coming to a city near you. Watch for previews 11/2012)
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To: Colofornian

It is a irrational “religion”.

Their argument basically is that they have to have sex with widows, etc., to care for them. Stupid and irrational. The idea that polygamy doesn’t reduce the dignity and worth of women-—is ridiculous. One=One..... When 4 = 1 the worth of the one is equal to four......hmmmmm Conditioning children of polygamous relationships to believe women have less worth than men.

This concept has taken Christianity thousands of years to destroy. The elevation of Mary as Mother of God was the real beginning of giving worth to women in all the pagan societies where all women were slaves or suffering polygamous societies and cruelly treated like cattle. In poygamous islam—women are still treated like dogs. All history shows those societies encourage incest, pederasty, pedophilia, —all sorts of unnatural destructive lifestyles.


27 posted on 12/17/2011 2:21:08 PM PST by savagesusie
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To: CARTOUCHE
No my Christian Friend. Because your efforts should be in uplifiting spiritual pursuits, not denigrating others that have no power over you or your life’s path. Proselytize those who have not heard.

On the contrary, according to the Apostle Paul, we should also make an effort to watch out for false teachings (Romans 16:17); to silence them (Titus 1:11); to refute them (2 Corinthians 10:5-6); and to expel the false teachers from the church (Galatians 4:30). The Scriptures are just as concerned with maintaining the integrity of the church, as with proselytizing those yet outside of it.

28 posted on 12/17/2011 2:29:59 PM PST by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: CARTOUCHE
Because your efforts should be in uplifiting spiritual pursuits, not denigrating others that have no power over you or your life’s path.

You don't know my "offline" activities. Therefore, you "judge" thru a single window.

Proselytize those who have not heard.

You know the apostle Paul concluded this (he didn't use the word "proselytize") in a verse toward the end of his letter to Christians at Rome. So I respect this suggestion of yours.

But imagine had you "lectured" Paul because you didn't like the fact that every time -- in his earlier years -- that he entered into a community, he entered a synagogue...and often argued, debated with the religious people there.

Just read Acts 13-19. Especially Acts, 17, 18. It's all there.

I guess you can scold the apostle when he gets to heaven about the priorities he exercised. Per your "mission CONTROL" priorities, he should have just skipped all of what he did in the "Acts" period of his life and just moved on to his goal later in life, eh?

29 posted on 12/17/2011 2:33:32 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

Were the mothers of these girls that gullible?


30 posted on 12/17/2011 3:21:48 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: teppe
There is no “our Chrisitan God”. To be one of his you must be Christian. As a practicing Mormon, you are not under that banner. It is up to you to change that.
31 posted on 12/17/2011 3:53:02 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian

And why not? Paul had no right to enter a synagogue uninvited. Would you “crash” a ‘Mormon” temple to argue with those there that believe they are worshipping Jesus whether you think they are wrong or not? I think you’ll find that there are probably many LDS folks that post hereabout on FR and they probably understand that for whatever reason you couldn’t cut it so you cut out. But, they don’t lambaste you or your decision to leave the LDS faith. To showcase some apostate polygamists as evidence of something or other in support of your cause is zany :=)


32 posted on 12/17/2011 3:59:43 PM PST by CARTOUCHE ( Civil War, the sequel, coming to a city near you. Watch for previews 11/2012)
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To: CARTOUCHE; Colofornian
A very Mormon reply...

Colo, being told by a Mormon you couldn't cut it in the LDS should be high praise, especially for you discernment and intellect...

33 posted on 12/17/2011 4:31:15 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: CARTOUCHE
Proselytize those who have not heard.

LOL OH MY!

You are kidding, right?

A Mormon saying such?


34 posted on 12/17/2011 4:35:03 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian
 

Polygamy: How it all got Started


 
 
 
Joe: Hey Emma!   Guess what!?
 
Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?
 
Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.
 
Emma: WHAT!?   You ding bat!  Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says?   After all; YOU are the one that translated it!
 
Joe: Books; schmooks.   All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!
 
 
Emma:      "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"
 
 
Joe: Silly Woman!  You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 
...and the rest is HISTORY...
 

 
 
 
 
 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

Or even HERE:
 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.



 
 
Emma: That's IT!   I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!
 
Joe:  DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!!   Wait!!!   I hear a voice again!!!
 
 


 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.


35 posted on 12/17/2011 6:03:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
The Church’s current position on polygamy, not widely known among younger Mormons, let alone non-members, is that God suspended the practice and temporarily disallowed plural marriage to spare the membership legal and political problems.

Oh???

Then there SHOULD be something quite definitely trumps the following:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


36 posted on 12/17/2011 6:06:36 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
...there SHOULD be something quite definitely trumps...

Does THIS appear to do it?

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President


37 posted on 12/17/2011 6:07:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CARTOUCHE; ejonesie22
I think you’ll find that there are probably many LDS folks that post hereabout on FR and they probably understand that for whatever reason you couldn’t cut it so you cut out. But, they don’t lambaste you or your decision to leave the LDS faith

False assumption.

(Better get a new rock urim & thummim or somethin').

I'm not ex-Mormon; never was a Mormon; though I am a descendent of Mormons.

But, they don’t lambaste you or your decision to leave the LDS faith.

This shows your complete ignorance of how Mormons regard non-Mormons (Gentiles).

Mormon missionaries talk about a "universal apostasy." Yes, Mormons who leave Mormonism are deemed "apostates"; but so are those Christians who never were Mormon...Christians descended from Christians are part of the so-called "universal apostasy." We're all "apostates" to the Mormons...even the founding fathers of our country were deemed by Smith & Co. as "apostates."

To showcase some apostate polygamists...

Even more ignorance CARTOUCHE. Even though Mormonism regards so many as "apostates," in the true narrow sense of the word there are much fewer "Mormon apostates." And the fLDS alive now were never part of the official LDS church; therefore, they were never among the mainstream Mormons for them to be kicked out.

And why not? Paul had no right to enter a synagogue uninvited. Would you “crash” a ‘Mormon” temple to argue with those there that believe they are worshipping Jesus whether you think they are wrong or not?

#1 Paul simply went into the synagogues (doesn't say whether he was invited all the time or not);
#2 My posts are a LOT less intrusive than a Mormon missionary ringing my doorbell! (There's no knocking on everybody's computer each time I post!)

38 posted on 12/17/2011 6:10:14 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian
Does THIS appear to do it?

Well; to give our MORMON friends here on FR something to explain; perhaps the FULLER explanation will shed some light instead of all this heat...


NOTHING was changed in the MORMONic scriptures.

Here - read for yourself - just SEE if 'GOD' told them to change ANYTHING about their belief.


 

 
 
 
 
 
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 




President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.







 

EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place
if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.
(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
 
 
 

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.
 
(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 

 
 
 
 
What kind of  'Leadership' is THIS???
 
compared to...
 
 
 
 
Hebrews 11:35-40
 35.  Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
 36.  Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
 37.  They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
 38.  the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 
 
 
or compared to...
 

Acts 4:19.  But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.
 


 
So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!
 
Well; it DID last about 47 years!
 



 
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President

39 posted on 12/17/2011 6:10:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CARTOUCHE
Must be awfully lonely on your island.

Must be rough; coming onto FR and finding all of these historical FACTS about MORMONism; and then being unable to respond with rational responces.

40 posted on 12/17/2011 6:12:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: annieokie
...the FACTS are out there...

and the facts are in HERE!

41 posted on 12/17/2011 6:13:52 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: teppe
Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God ... or our God is wrong, and you need to find a new religion.

Or your premise is wrong and you need to try it on those who are logically challenged:


42 posted on 12/17/2011 6:17:17 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: ClearBlueSky
...a disturbing similarity between Mormons and Muslims...

HMMmmm...

 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




43 posted on 12/17/2011 6:18:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: teppe
What God allows, and what he ordains and approves of, are two different things.

True dat!

GOD has 'allowed' ABORTION to MURDER 1 of 4 children before birth in this country.

MORMONism's GOD will allow the same if you ask him right.

44 posted on 12/17/2011 6:20:14 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Dogbert41
We’ve have a homosexual Muslim Communist illegal alien as president.

I'm a MORMON ...
 
 
 

http://www.affirmation.org/

45 posted on 12/17/2011 6:21:22 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CARTOUCHE
No my Christian Friend. Because your efforts should be in uplifiting spiritual pursuits, not denigrating others that have no power over you or your life’s path.

Sorry; but the BIBLE states just the opposite of your claim:

 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



46 posted on 12/17/2011 6:23:42 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Indeed they are, yet the brainwashed blind will never look.


47 posted on 12/17/2011 6:23:53 PM PST by annieokie
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To: CARTOUCHE
Would you “crash” a ‘Mormon” temple to argue with those there that believe they are worshipping Jesus whether you think they are wrong or not?

MORMONs on FR got busted because they were trying to use the CAUCUS area as a speaking platform to denigrate CHRISTIANITY. A place where we would NOT be able to respond: just like their secret Temples.


NOW on FR, BOTH sides can speak their piece out in the open and may the TRUTH win out.

48 posted on 12/17/2011 6:27:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: annieokie

Aye; but by NOT ‘looking’, a person runs the chance of crashing into something solid that WILL get their attention!


49 posted on 12/17/2011 6:30:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

There ya go honey. Just as I suspected. Your purpose here is not to further conservatism but to divide and conquer in whatever way you think will work. So how much is the DNC paying you?

I’d think with all that has happened in the past 3 years of Obamunism that you’d want as many allies to storm his castle as possible. Apparently you have a plan that excludes Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anyone else that does hoe to your straight and narrow garden rows. He sighs deeply.


50 posted on 12/17/2011 6:37:50 PM PST by CARTOUCHE ( Civil War, the sequel, coming to a city near you. Watch for previews 11/2012)
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