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Following The Truth: What If Mary Said “No”? (Catholic or Open)
CE.com ^ | October 13th, 2009 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 12/23/2011 9:48:45 AM PST by Salvation

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To: vladimir998
God knows what we will choose, but He allows free will.

God could know, if he wanted to, but that doesn't imply that he does. For God's gift of free will to have meaning, he must be open to the possibility of being "surprised". If He were to make his decisions based upon knowledge of people's future actions, so as to ensure that nobody would ever have the power to do things that He would really dislike, then He would be substituting His own will for those of his people, and his gift would be meaningless.

51 posted on 12/23/2011 10:22:34 PM PST by supercat (Renounce Covetousness.)
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To: supercat
But asking Mary was merely a formality. Why? Because of the Immaculate Conception. Whoever said "yes" to His request must have been born without sin. Are you saying that God created a whole shelf full of sinless girls, just to increase His odds? Or did He, upon the refusal by one of them, go back in time and make the next candidate's conception immaculate? He is God, after all.

The paradox becomes less puzzling at this point. Mary, being humble and wise beyond her years, discerned His plan, recognized her part in it, and agreed--free will to the extent that she chose to accept His will, but no free will at all when you realize that it was against her nature not to. In other words, God had created a perfect creature who was programmed to carry out His plan. And being born without sin simply guaranteed that she could never be corrupted. Again, not really a choice.

52 posted on 12/24/2011 2:13:17 AM PST by giotto
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To: supercat

You wrote:

“God could know, if he wanted to, but that doesn’t imply that he does.”

God knows. He can only know. If He did not know, He would not be God.

“For God’s gift of free will to have meaning, he must be open to the possibility of being “surprised”.”

Completely false. His gift is to us, not Himself. Thus, His experience of our choices is irrelevant.

“If He were to make his decisions based upon knowledge of people’s future actions, so as to ensure that nobody would ever have the power to do things that He would really dislike, then He would be substituting His own will for those of his people, and his gift would be meaningless.”

No. God knows all. He still gives us free will. His knowledge of all has absolutely nothing to do with the extent of the gift He has given us.


53 posted on 12/24/2011 5:21:03 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
God knows. He can only know. If He did not know, He would not be God.

If God's knew everything that was going to happen "in advance", then the fact that any of it actually did happen would be meaningless.

Who is more powerful--you, or a deck of playing cards? If you sit down to play a game of Klondike Solitaire, is there any reason why you couldn't know and control the position of all the cards at the start? Would peeking at all the cards, and arranging them with the advantage of that knowledge, make the game more or less fun than it would be with the cards hidden?

Or, let me ask a biblical question: Could God destroy humanity with a flood starting December 26, 2011, and lasting forty days and forty nights? It would certainly be within His power to do so, as He has demonstrated once in the past. He could not do so, however, without rendering completely meaningless any promise He has ever made to mankind. His power is not limited in a "physical" sense, but it is nonetheless absolutely restrained.

54 posted on 12/24/2011 7:15:20 AM PST by supercat (Renounce Covetousness.)
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To: supercat

You wrote:

“If God’s knew everything that was going to happen “in advance”, then the fact that any of it actually did happen would be meaningless.”

Not to us.

“Who is more powerful—you, or a deck of playing cards? If you sit down to play a game of Klondike Solitaire, is there any reason why you couldn’t know and control the position of all the cards at the start?”

So, to you, we are merely cards that God is playing with? Would God send His Son to die on a cross for playing cards?

“Would peeking at all the cards, and arranging them with the advantage of that knowledge, make the game more or less fun than it would be with the cards hidden?”

So, this is about fun for God? I think your whole outlook is skewed if your statements are anything to go by.

“Or, let me ask a biblical question: Could God destroy humanity with a flood starting December 26, 2011, and lasting forty days and forty nights?”

He could, but won’t for He said He would not destroy the world with a flood again.

“It would certainly be within His power to do so, as He has demonstrated once in the past. He could not do so, however, without rendering completely meaningless any promise He has ever made to mankind. His power is not limited in a “physical” sense, but it is nonetheless absolutely restrained.”

That has nothing to do with His knowledge. He knows all. That doesn’t mean He does all.


55 posted on 12/24/2011 7:35:47 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Salvation; All

If Mary had said no, God would have had Gabriele ask another virgin. The Catholic Church would have done with her as they did with Mary. You would have this same article with her name every place Mary’s is and her graven images would not be worshipped just like the graven images of Mary aren’t.

May God lead us into His truth, BVB


56 posted on 12/24/2011 8:51:04 AM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: vladimir998

BTTT for that answer!


57 posted on 12/24/2011 9:59:25 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: vladimir998

Just as a matter of style points, I’m not sure using the most predictable clown here is the best example of free will ;)


58 posted on 12/24/2011 10:46:36 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: vladimir998
Not to us.

But in what way would we be meaningful to Him? If God knows exactly what anyone will do before the person does it, in what way would anyone's decisions be able to please or displease God? I would aver that God has a plan for this world, and things that facilitate the plan would please him more than things that would obstruct it.

So, to you, we are merely cards that God is playing with? Would God send His Son to die on a cross for playing cards?

No single analogy can cover every single aspect of God; any analogy is going to have its limitations. The playing card analogy is good, I think, for emphasizing that while a person could exercise complete authority over the cards, interacting with them from a standpoint of limited authority is often much more satisfying. The fact that a person playing cards wouldn't generally have any particular feelings for the cards he's using is simply a weakness in the analogy, and is not in any way meant to imply that God doesn't care about people.

So, this is about fun for God? I think your whole outlook is skewed if your statements are anything to go by.

The very notion of endeavoring to please God would seem rather meaningless if God was incapable of pleasure, would it not? Analogies have their limits, but I think the type of pleasure God is after would be one more associated with satisfaction than "fun". Something akin to the satisfaction a parent might feel when a son performs some challenging task that demonstrates his parents taught him well. The parents might have been capable of performing the task themselves, but only by letting the son do it could they receive the satisfaction. That has nothing to do with His knowledge. He knows all. That doesn’t mean He does all.

Suppose someone made a promise to someone else to help rescue the other person's house if it was ever flooded. Such an offer might seem generous. Suppose, however, that the person making the offer knew the house was going to be seized under eminent domain and flattened to make way for an roadway before there was any possibility of it flooding. Would that affect the level of generosity implicit in the offer?

A promise is only meaningful if there is some possibility of circumstances arising where it would compel action. To my mind, there would be a huge difference between a God who promised, without knowing what the future holds, that he would never again destroy mankind as he had done in Genesis, versus one who looked at the future and simply declared that he knew mankind would never again go so far off track as to merit destruction.

To my mind, any causal model which implies that everything that will ever happen is preordained is a causal model in which nobody has any moral accountability for anything. Some people try to claim that predestination does not contradict moral accountability, but any such models I've seen appear to hand-wave over the contradiction without resolving it. My view of God and the universe resolves the issue, by observing that God has a plan, and God knows what that plan is, but humans can decide of their own free will to either assist or fight it. In no sense are the individual actions of individual people preordained; individuals are fully morally accountable for their own actions.

59 posted on 12/24/2011 11:41:29 AM PST by supercat (Renounce Covetousness.)
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To: vladimir998

prove it. on the other thread.


60 posted on 12/24/2011 11:19:35 PM PST by 7MMmag
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To: 7MMmag

Already did prove it. Find the answer yourself.


61 posted on 12/25/2011 4:51:39 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
All you did was make opinionated claims, backed by wind, to which you then added attempt at insult.

Did you ever look at the links I provided to the quotes? How about the links to the humorous material another provided?

62 posted on 12/25/2011 11:43:30 AM PST by 7MMmag
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To: vladimir998

Take any reply to the other thread please.


63 posted on 12/25/2011 11:44:43 AM PST by 7MMmag
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To: 7MMmag

You wrote:

“All you did was make opinionated claims, backed by wind, to which you then added attempt at insult.”

No, actually I provided the only logically possible explanation.

“Did you ever look at the links I provided to the quotes?”

Maybe I did. Maybve I didn’t.

“How about the links to the humorous material another provided?”

Humorous material would have import in this matter? This was not a discussion about humor.


64 posted on 12/25/2011 11:58:30 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: 7MMmag

No.


65 posted on 12/25/2011 11:58:59 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

When it comes to helicopters, or bags of steel cut oats it does, in the context of the discussions here! lol.

66 posted on 12/25/2011 3:42:25 PM PST by 7MMmag (when the crusaders encountered Suliman, they lost, and the survivors trudged back home perplexed)
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To: 7MMmag

You wrote:

“When it comes to helicopters, or bags of steel cut oats it does, in the context of the discussions here! lol.”

Which just proves what I said: Humorous material would have import in this matter? This was not a discussion about humor.


67 posted on 12/25/2011 3:45:38 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: Salvation

Merry Christmas. I’ve not been on line much this weekend. Blessed New Year to everyone too.


68 posted on 12/26/2011 4:42:25 PM PST by floriduh voter ( Obamacare is to you as a can of RAID is to a bug. R A I D !)
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To: Salvation
Thanks for posting this head-scratcher. On the thread I ran across this post: "Well there was Mary’s Immaculate Conception. How would that be if Mary said no?" and that really did make me think (which is hard for me to do). Later, this post - "Questions of "free will" aside, a "no" from Mary would not have prevented the incarnation. God is much, much bigger than that." - at first made my skin crawl for the way it missed the point; no one believes Mary trumps God's will. This was a ridiculous straw man, even by Religion Forum standards.

But then, after holiday drinks (which is easy for me to do), it hit me how the two posts could be related. Of course a 'no' from Mary wouldn't mean God couldn't go through with the incarnation. However, maybe it would mean He wouldn't want to. Perhaps after removing Original Sin from His creation and then posing the question - perhaps a being without Original Sin who turned down God's request would not deserve salvation, nor certainly not the rest of her race who was born into Original Sin. Perhaps one is very, very dependent on the other.

69 posted on 12/28/2011 8:07:35 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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