Posted on 12/27/2011 5:04:12 AM PST by Cronos
by Rusty Miller
We believe the book of Revelation to be a prophecy regarding the coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. But when there is so much disagreement about this in the religious world, how do we prove such?
First, the book would have meant something to its readers. Note that in the letters to the churches (ch. 2-3), two of the churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia) are comforted regarding their persecution by the Jews, whom Jesus calls ""a synagogue of Satan"" (2:9; 3:9). These churches would have been comforted by the coming judgment on Jerusalem. When Jerusalem is destroyed, with it go all the records, genealogies and traditions of Judaism, and the churches would cease suffering at their hands.
In addition, perhaps the best evidence in favor of linking the book to Jerusalem's destruction is found in the descriptions of the book itself. When we couple the words of prophecy with the words of history, it is sometimes uncanny how similar they sound. Let us examine just a few key passages.
In Revelation 6, we find the opening of the first six seals. In the first, a rider on a white horse, symbolizing conquest, and in the second, a rider on a red horse, symbolizing war (bloodshed) ride out through the land. As often follows conquest and war, the third seal features ""a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine'"" (6:5-6). As the war against Jerusalem was waged, the Roman siege lines cut off all supplies to the city, and the infighting among various factions of the Jews caused much of the surplus food to be destroyed. Josephus even describes the horrid tale of a woman who roasted and ate her own child, concluding "". . . So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die; and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries"" (Jewish Wars, Book 6, Ch. 3).
In Revelation 8, the seven trumpets begin to sound, and here, the descriptions get even more uncannily like the historical record. The first trumpet brings forth hail and fire (v. 7). The armies of the Roman general Vespasian, dispatched by Nero to quell the Jewish rebellion, were equipped with what Josephus calls engines (catapults) which are used to launch arrows, darts, stones and flaming arrows and darts. The result, in the battle for Galilee (the first line of Jewish defense), was ""That Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood"" (Ibid, Book 3, Ch. 4).
The second trumpet sounds, and the terror visits the sea vv. 8-9), and shortly after Vespasian's victory at Galilee, he came to destroy the pirate ships of Joppa. He forces them out to sea, where they are met by a violent storm, which Josephus describes: ""The greatest part of them were carried away by the waves, and dashed to pieces against the abrupt parts of the rocks, insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies; for the Romans came upon those that were carried to the shore, and destroyed them; and the number of the bodies that were thus thrown out of the sea was four thousand and two hundred"" (Ibid, Book 3, Ch. 9).
Perhaps the most convincing arguments for Jerusalem as the topic of Revelation are found in chapter 11. The chapter begins with John being told to measure the temple (v. 1) and this temple is in ""the holy city"" (v.2). These are clear references to Jerusalem, for that is where the temple was. This also helps in dating the book before the destruction of AD 70, for in that destruction, the temple was destroyed. Imagine John being told to measure something which his 1st century readers all understood was no longer in existence! Chapter 11 continues with the story of the two witnesses of God, and their deaths at the hand of the beast, after which John records, ""And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is mystically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified"" (v. 8). First, in both Deuteronomy (32:28-33) and in Isaiah (1:10), God refers to the Jewish people, and Jerusalem in particular, as Sodom, and Ezekiel 23 links Israel to her harlotries in Egypt. So, there is precedent for John's use of these names to describe what had once been the city of God. But if there is any doubt where this evil takes place, John clears it up with his reference to the city ""where also their Lord was crucified."" Jesus was not crucified in Rome, or in Berlin, or in Moscow, or in Washington, D.C. Our Lord was crucified in Jerusalem, and this is the city God has prepared for destruction in the book of Revelation.
Finally, when all the destruction is done, what happens? A new city appears, to take the place of the old harlot which had been destroyed by God's wrath. ""And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband"" (Rev. 21:2). When God is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem, He replaces her with a new city, which He also calls Jerusalem. This new Jerusalem is everything the first was not: pure, spotless, without unbelievers and the immoral. God destroyed the old Jerusalem to make way for the new one.
These are but a few of the references to the destruction of Jerusalem found in Revelation, but they are sufficient to cause us to understand that this is what John's book discusses. We urge you to examine other passages in the book, particularly in tandem with the historical record of Josephus. In such a way, you can obtain a better understanding of this challenging book.
I totally disagree with your view on this matter. For example Rev 21:4: “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Obviously, this hasn’t happened yet.
There are references to killing off a fourth of the population of earth, the beast having authority over the earth, etc. Clearly John is writing about more than one city.
I would say that Mark 13:1-2 is about the destruction of Jerusalem.
If Revelation was written after 70 BCE, then it’s not much of a prophesy, is it? So, when was it written?
If Revelation was written after 70 CE, then it’s not much of a prophesy, is it? So, when was it written?
Fair enough. I disagree with yours too :)
read my post 9 to you.
-- yup, this was against the interpretation that all of what John said The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass -- the things DID come to pass -- Christ does not tease the 1st century Christians persecuted by Nero Caesar.
Do you consider Daniel a Christian? He and all that passed through this flesh age that returned to the Maker that sent them were offered 'salvation' while Christ was in the tomb. At least that is what Peter 'bound' in his writings. AND IF we are to read Daniel's words as Divinely inspired then the ONE who had him (Daniel) pen those words, surely knew that what He had Daniel write down would be 'happening' and when. The mere fact that Daniel was told to go his way because what Daniel had written down would NOT take place until the end. The end is not yet here and not all of what Daniel penned has taken place.
I think it boils down to the object of what is worshiped, and then interpretations get dreamed up plumbing Scriptures to build a doctrine. Christ Himself when asked what would be the *sign* of His return listed out in specifics what would take place. What John does is while taken in Spirit yet forward describe what had taken place, what would take place and declares the Victor.
So even on the 'first' day of the Day of the Lord there are 7 churches, NOT one, and each church is warned as to their doctrinal standing and opportunity as time passes to get in 'good' standing before that 'DAY' of the Lord.
The so called OLD Testament is filled with the same warnings, by the usage of the phrase of things like 'in that day' all describing what the children would be doing leading up to the LORD's return.
How one knows this without question is by what Paul was inspired to write in ICorinthians 10 in particular verse 11 Now *all* these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition, (warning) upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. This by necessity would mean actual literal events not shelved off into being allegories. There are of course allegories, such as the Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil found in Genesis, but the majority of things recorded in the so called OLD did in fact take place.
The so call OLD is our script for what are those 'signs' that Christ elaborated when asked what would be the sign of His return, and Daniel's words are part of that 'warning' as to what would be again before and to the last day of this FLESH age. How many times was Nero Caesar mentioned in the 'WORD'?
What a joke.
How can you say “They” have a right to “their land” when your theology SCREAMS that God is “finished” with them?
Site any Biblical source that gives the Jews the eternal, unconditional right to the land and you will see yourself undermining your own theology.
Note -- many folks mistakenly mix up Revelation with Daniel with the writings of Paul. Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled in Antiochus IV and his desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the restoration of the Jewish Kingdom by the Maccabees, while Paul's is about the future.Revelation is purely about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. It is complete.
I'll get this read, sometime soon.
There are many ways to parse the same data, and Daniel and John’s Apocalypse are not the only biblical texts that discuss eschatology. I’d point you to Vos’ Pauline Eschatology for a start at that.
My own position (pretty standard Reformed protestant amillennialism, see my FR page for the standard references and rant) doesn’t require an early date for Revelation, and I don’t tend to participate much when it comes up on FR.
The preterist position (which you are arguing) requires an early date, and you end up needing a lot of exegetical special pleading to make it work.
It also confuses certain parties in the debate, who can’t seem to distinguish any position outside their camp. Which is ironic, given how they pride themselves on “rightly dividing” this or that.
Revelation is purely about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. It is complete.
"It's end will come with a flood"
Considered in the history of redemption, the siege and overthrow of Jerusalem and the destruction of the physical temple were indeed a tribulation "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."
Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled in Antiochus IV and his desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem
Oh? Don't count the years like a 19th century lawyer or engineer. Look at the numbers like a Jew soaked in Old Testament history and texts would. Seventy weeks takes you to the tenth jubilee out. It's a sabbatical pattern. You might find this an interesting read.
Who said that God is "finished" with them? You are the one making anti-semitic statements like Mrs. Z: "Jews need to be out of Israel (which shouldn't exist anyway)... and Mrs. Z: Jews.." should all “disappear” -"
Revelation is clear about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
It was destroyed, historical FACT.
The Israelies now have possession of Jerusalem and Israel - FACT, no matter how much you may dislike our Jewish friends, I support their control of this land.
Daniel was about that period, Revelation is about matters "at hand in the 1st century" -- about the fall of Jerusalem and the persecutions of Nero.
Don't mix up these -- as I said in post 1 Note -- many folks mistakenly mix up Revelation with Daniel with the writings of Paul. Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled in Antiochus IV and his desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the restoration of the Jewish Kingdom by the Maccabees, while Paul's is about the future.
Revelation is purely about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. It is complete.
Have you ever read the book of Jeremiah? Jeremiah was told to tell the House of Judah they were going into captivity to the king of Babylon, and the 'temple' would be destroyed. Regardless of who fought when and where. AND God told Daniel to go his way, that the words he penned were for the end of this age. Even Christ Himself quotes Daniel when listing the signs that would be taking place 'trumpeting' the count down to His return.
Revelation was written after 70 AD so no way no how is it talking about what Titus did. AND it is far from being completed. Paul knew the so called OLD better than any of the other New Testament writers, which is why he had the credibility to say what happened to them was recorded in the OLD was and is our script as to what would be replayed.
Before one word of the New Testament got put on animal skins or plant material Christ said But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (Mark 13:23) Christ quoted time and again the prophets making their writings one and the same as the gospel.
Daniel was in Babylon when the House of Judah was sent into captivity. And it was the king of Babylon that sacked Jerusalem. BUT king Neb converted and even wrote a portion of Daniel after he grazed on green grass for a period of time. I think it is man's traditions that for self serving purposes elevates Antiochus IV to be the entity that Daniel is describing.
There are a lot of things discussed in rev that don,t seem to have any thing to do with a.d seventy, for instance the thousand years in which the people who were in the first resurrection would reign with Christ.
the 1000 bit is also 10 cube — a symbol for eternity.
For the Jews, the Temple was a mini-version of the world. So the destruction of the temple was the destruction of the World
The Jews have come back since the 1800s - Aliya started then, under the Turks
And Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since 1948. I don't care if no one else "recognized" it - Israel is a de jure and de facto separate country and it has the full right to recognize its own capital.
The US congress in the 1990s recognized it and now President Trump has signed that recognition of the US in 2018 (one year after the Russkies did, by the by)
My opinion is that it was written in the 60s AD, under the persecution of Nero. Because there is no evidence for persecution under Domitian in the later years of the 1st century.
That’s false - the fact of the destruction of the SECOND temple doesn’t negate the fact of the glorious rebirth and continuous existence of Israel under God’s protection.
Yep.
How about those chains the devil is wearing. Pretty cool that they can stretch from LA to DC, then over to Beijing when needed.
Any way. If you cannot (which you can't), then Revelation is not yet complete.
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