Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Polygamous family launches challenge of Utah law
FoxNews/AP ^ | Dec. 19, 2011

Posted on 12/30/2011 5:23:14 AM PST by Colofornian

Edited on 12/30/2011 5:44:11 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

SALT LAKE CITY Reality TV stars Kody Brown and his four wives say they just want one thing: to be left alone.

As authorities investigate them for bigamy, the TLC "Sister Wives" family is asking a federal judge to overturn part of Utah's bigamy law because it bans them from living together and criminalizes sexual relationships between unmarried consenting adults.


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apostolicunited; beyondgaymarriage; flds; inman; islam; mormon; polygamy; sharia
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-163 next last
From the article: "What they are asking for is the right to structure their own lives, their own family, according to their faith and their beliefs," said Jonathan Turley, their attorney...

Well why not have multiple men and women all marry each other -- if 'self-structuring' a "family" is of such import? (Hey, why not include the family dog or dogs?)

Ah. Look what Joseph Smith has wrought!

From the article: While all states outlaw bigamy, some like Utah have laws that both prohibit having more than one marriage license at a time and also ban adults from living together and having a sexual relationship. The family — Kody, Meri, Janelle, Christine and Robyn, plus 17 children — fled Utah for the Las Vegas suburbs in January after authorities launched a bigamy investigation. No charges have been filed. Utah state attorneys say a bigamy prosecution isn't likely and that the lawsuit should be dismissed...Despite the ban in every state, Mormon fundamentalists still continue the practice, most of them in Utah, where bigamy is a third-degree felony...

Bottom line: Mormon authorities look the other way on these laws...is it because of the mainstream Mormon church's "past-present-future" practice of polygamy? (Past: U.S. Polygamy; future: Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie said that when the Mormon jesus returned, polygamy would be re-instituted; Supposedly "present": Mormons believe that their polygamous leaders from the past are living polygamous families now in another sphere...and even current Mormons who marry more than one spouse allegedly "for eternity" become eternal polygamists, they say, upon death).

1 posted on 12/30/2011 5:23:22 AM PST by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Ah. Look what Joseph Smith has wrought!
>>Correction:What Lawrence v. Texas hath wrought!

Thank you gay America.


2 posted on 12/30/2011 5:29:35 AM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
2011 has been another banner FREEPER year for discussing polygamy.

This 200-plus reply thread is but one example: Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy] -- and links to one of the most thorough Web sites on Mormon polygamy from the past.

A Sampling of Other threads on polygamy in 2011 (not comprehensive):
* Mark 12:25 and Marriage in Heaven [Mormonism/Anti-Christian]
* Celestial Marriage & Eternal Exaltation / Redefining Celestial Marriage [Mormonism/Anti-Christian]
* Celestial Marriage: Key to Exaltation [Mormonism/Anti/Chistian]
* Eternal Marriage/Eternal Progression [Mormonism/Anti-Christian]
* Polygamy: Will You Have to Share Your Husband With Other Women?
* The Pharisee, the Temple and Polygamy [Wanna multiply eternal spouses? If Lds, rituals still occur!]
* Only for Eternity [Mainstream Mormon Ecclesiastical Polygamy...Supposedly Still Practiced!]
* Polygamy and me: Growing up Mormon
* Mormons Teach Polygamy is Divine [one-minute YouTube clip]

3 posted on 12/30/2011 5:30:30 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

I am an atheist, and told a Catholic friend of mine a little about the LDS beliefs from an objective online souce. She was kind of shocked. She used to think “They believe Jesus Christ is the son of God” and that was pretty much all she needed to hear.

Not trying to stir up either Christians or Mormons, but from what I can see, it seems some of the beliefs that would repel Catholics and Protestants are not exactly being publicized. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong and I acknowledge I may be, but don’t LDS beliefs say that God is a man who elevated to Godhood, and when they die Mormons believe they, too, will be just as much gods as the Christian God? Also, it seems Joseph Smith ‘corrected’ a lot of the King James version of the Bible, though I’m not sure what the differences in these beliefs are.

I have no issue with politicians of any faith running for office. But we’ve already got one president helped by the media to cover up his decades of belief, and I’d like to have all the facts on whoever’s running for the most powerful office in the land.


4 posted on 12/30/2011 5:31:39 AM PST by Darkwolf377 (Is it really time to go?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rzman21
>>Correction:What Lawrence v. Texas hath wrought!

Lawrence v. Texas didn't formulate the worldviews that built the U.S. polygamous foundations as practiced in the Apostolic United Brethren or the fLDS or the LDS. Joseph Smith did that.

5 posted on 12/30/2011 5:33:36 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377
I mean, correct me if I’m wrong and I acknowledge I may be, but don’t LDS beliefs say that God is a man who elevated to Godhood, and when they die Mormons believe they, too, will be just as much gods as the Christian God?

Yes on both counts. This is CURRENT Mormon teaching.

Also, it seems Joseph Smith ‘corrected’ a lot of the King James version of the Bible, though I’m not sure what the differences in these beliefs are.

Also, yes. It's called the "JST" version. The Lds don't have copyrights to it...because Joseph's first wife, Emma, retained that when Smith died. Emma never went West with the Brighamite Mormons. Hence, she and her sons helped jumpstart the RLDS church, which has the copyright.

6 posted on 12/30/2011 5:36:57 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Thank you for your help. I don’t know much about the LDS, but the more I look into it the, uh, odder it seems to me.


7 posted on 12/30/2011 5:42:59 AM PST by Darkwolf377 (Is it really time to go?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

“Thank you gay America.”

Thank activist judges with NO sense of morality.

Vote Gingrich!


8 posted on 12/30/2011 5:43:54 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Reality TV stars Kody Brown and his four wives say they just want one thing: to be left alone.

Should have thought of that BEFORE you aired you, not normal lifestyle on television. You can not have a controversial TV show, and be left alone.

9 posted on 12/30/2011 5:54:56 AM PST by DYngbld (I have read the back of the Book and we WIN!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

But Lawrence v. Texas setup the legal framework for undoing Reynolds v. U.S. and Mormon Church v. U.S., which banned polygamy in the 19th century.


10 posted on 12/30/2011 6:28:58 AM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Lawrence v. Texas has enabled the evil of homosexuality, and by extension, it will enable the evil of polygamy.


11 posted on 12/30/2011 7:26:23 AM PST by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
How consenting adults order their lives, as long as no force or fraud is involved, or direct harm comes to others, is absolutely none of the Governments business.

Nor is it any of yours.

12 posted on 12/30/2011 7:30:37 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; Religion Moderator
How consenting adults order their lives, as long as no force or fraud is involved, or direct harm comes to others, is absolutely none of the Governments business. Nor is it any of yours.

#1...If you were consistent with your own view, you would stay off commenting on threads like these. After all, it would be "none of YOUR business," either.

Since you can't stay consistent with your own worldview (you "make it your business" to tell others it's none of their business), why don't you go export your double-standard nonsense elsewhere? Or just go back to lurking?

#2...Such a position in effect endorses three guys marrying each other. This is a pro-family Web site. If you embrace that, you might as well "zot" yourself before somebody else does it for you.

#3...Your position would be much easier to handle economically in our society if we didn't have (a) DEAD-BEAT DADS; AND (b) Government welfare economically rescuing all those strange "family" configurations when most of them dissolve or deteriorate...

IOW, as a taxpayer who funds that "safety net" -- and as a government that "bails out" these individual configurations when they fail...I have a "say" and the government has a "say."

If the govt wasn't so financially invested (welfare), it would have to take a more "hands-off" approach. It doesn't. It has a vested interest in not having to bail out configurations that fail at higher rates.

That's social reality. Deal with it

(Now go be worldview-consistent and go mind YOUR OWN business and stay out of the government's and the taxpayers' business)

13 posted on 12/30/2011 7:47:25 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

This was the next step, once homosexual “marriage” is normalized polygamy was not far behind. I wonder when we will have challenges centering around polyandry, I mean what are we going to do with those extra men after all.


14 posted on 12/30/2011 8:08:30 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
This is also a pro-Freedom, limited Government website Skippy. I'm free to comment on any thread I choose to, and I chose to comment on this one.

Deal with it.

Your hatred of all things Mormon notwithstanding.

You posted a thread on a legal matter pending before the Courts. I commented on it. The fact that you don't like my opinion and can't use anything other than blind hatred to back up your own is irrelevant.

Since this isn't a Religous Caucus I'm free to comment.

It is my well considered opinion that consenting adults who aren't stealing Government funds or directly harming anyone else should be able to order their living arrangements any way they choose. That's called "freedom".

You seem to have a real problem with that. Perhaps it's you who's on the wrong website.

Just sayin'....

15 posted on 12/30/2011 8:09:39 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
SALT LAKE CITY – Reality TV stars Kody Brown and his four wives say they just want one thing: to be left alone.

How much you want to bet that these women are getting food stamps...... and other government goodies....

16 posted on 12/30/2011 8:16:44 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
How consenting adults order their lives,

When they start popping out illegitimate children that carry on their disfunction and become a burden to society, i.e. collecting food stamps and government health care, it becomes my business.

17 posted on 12/30/2011 8:20:49 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
Your hatred of all things Mormon notwithstanding.

Mormonism is anti Christianity, wise up.

This is also a pro-Freedom, limited Government website Skippy.

Hey Skippy, when was the last time you've read Jim Robinson's statement regarding Mormonism?

It is my well considered opinion that consenting adults who aren't stealing Government funds

Again, do some research before opening your trap. Polygamists often get food stamps and other government aid. Look up the Warren Jeff's cult.

18 posted on 12/30/2011 8:27:40 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; Colofornian
How consenting adults order their lives, as long as no force or fraud is involved, or direct harm comes to others, is absolutely none of the Governments business.

Nor is it any of yours.

The FLDS fiasco showed that there is plenty of fraud involved in plural marriages, it's just difficult to prove. Most if not all of those plural wives were receiving lots of federal and state benefits because they were legally unmarried mothers with no income. A man with 6 wives and 12-15 children by them has a whole heap of welfare checks and food stamps, plus medical benefits galore. All of that makes it "my business".

The Dugger family down in Arkansas with one wife and one husband and 20 or so kids is none of my business because they receive no tax payer dollars.

Aside from that angle, immorality is a concern for me. I'm against it for our country as a whole. Take a look around you at what our country has degenerated to. It can all be traced to disobedience to God's laws. Yes, it's my business.

It says right on F.R.s home page what this site is about, God, family, country, conservatism. The very reasons I'm here, to express opinions about these things.

19 posted on 12/30/2011 8:46:27 AM PST by Graybeard58 (No Obama, No Romney, No Paul, No Huntsman. We can do better than that!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: dragonblustar
Hey Skippy, when was the last time you've read Jim Robinson's statement regarding Mormonism?

I haven't read it. It wouldn't alter my opinion on this matter anyway.

Polygamists often get food stamps and other government aid.

Are the people in this article getting it? If so, prove it. If not, it isn't relevant and my opinion still stands.

Thanks for the input, Scooter.

20 posted on 12/30/2011 8:47:40 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

If this issue is not your business, why are you commenting on it then, just ignore the post?


21 posted on 12/30/2011 9:01:00 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Graybeard58
A man with 6 wives and 12-15 children by them has a whole heap of welfare checks and food stamps, plus medical benefits galore.

Do you have any evidence that this particular group is receiving any of those benefits?

My solution, of course, would be to end those 'benefits' entirely. But that's for another thread I suppose.

22 posted on 12/30/2011 9:05:32 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; Colofornian; Jim Robinson
Since this isn't a Religous Caucus I'm free to comment.

BUT...it is the Religion Forum and your view is not the view of the website owner.

"The sign on the door says Free Republic is a God, Country, Family, Life & Liberty site. And we seek to attract like-minded individuals. Those who campaign against us on our deeply-held traditional Christian conservative views are not like-minded and therefore not welcome.

146 posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2011 10:49:34 AM by Jim Robinson

It is my well considered opinion that consenting adults who aren't stealing Government funds or directly harming anyone else should be able to order their living arrangements any way they choose. That's called "freedom".
You seem to have a real problem with that. Perhaps it's you who's on the wrong website.

Perhaps it's you who should rethink that comment.

23 posted on 12/30/2011 9:09:55 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Holy, Holy, Holy..."God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: svcw
If this issue is not your business, why are you commenting on it then, just ignore the post?

Because a lot of very misguided people seem to think it is their business. These people aren't harming anyone. And there's no evidence of any fraud on their part.

They simply want to be left alone to live their lives the way they choose. They're neither picking my pocket nor breaking my leg.

Then there's that pesky part of the 1st Amendment which says "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof" to deal with. When you figure a way around that, you let me know.

24 posted on 12/30/2011 9:11:12 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
This is also a pro-Freedom, limited Government website Skippy. I'm free to comment on any thread I choose to, and I chose to comment on this one.

Nobody's going to pre-restrict your comments.

Go ahead. Spell it out. Say that you don't see anything wrong with three guys marrying.

You posted a thread on a legal matter pending before the Courts. I commented on it. The fact that you don't like my opinion...Since this isn't a Religous Caucus I'm free to comment

Don't confuse what I said in my #1 & #3 points with #2 -- this being a pro-family site.

When I told you to "mind your own business" -- that wasn't "handcuffs" on whether or not you could comment (external boundaries). I was merely saying that you should be consistent with your own internal worldview.

Since you go around lecturing others to mind their own business...it's obvious that's a standard of yours.

Live it.
Embody that within your posts then.
Mind your own business, then...
Despite the various freedoms you have, internally place restraints on yourself and live your standard by example.
If that's what you believe, then live it.

Otherwise, if you can't or won't, then just stop being a hypocrite about it. You can't be consistent by...in one post telling others to mind their own business and then in every post launch into others' business...

Don't you get it? Or are you the only one in this thread that doesn't understand you don't apply your own worldview to yourself? How you expect others to behave is not a standard you apply to yourself.

Are you so clueless about that?

You haven't been able to stop posting about...
...my posting business...
...or the government running their business...
...or other taxpayers' speaking out about the business of accountability for their funds.

And here I thought you told me we're all to just mind our own business -- and not get involved in the business of others!

So are you a "mind your own business" person or not? If you are, don't just preach it then; live it.

So go mind your own business then and inwardly restrain intruding upon others' business.

Another example: You want to superimpose certain emotions and actions I supposedly have...But if you're a true "mind your own business" guy, then who even cares what your commentary is about your neighbors...? 'Cause all your commentary shows is that you can't mind your own business, after all...can you?

In fact, you're making it your business to judge your neighbors.

Wow! Here you went from your first post advocating a "who cares?" approach to judging distinct family configurations in the way our neighbors live; and in each post, you can't stop falling over yourself to comment an "I care" approach to distinct word configurations re: what your neighbors post.

If you don't think we should judge "family" configurations embodied by people, then why the h*ll should you be caring about word configurations embodied by others?

Could you be any more inconsistent?

I'm not sure how you could communicate a more two-faced, hypocritical, double-standard approach to life.

25 posted on 12/30/2011 9:19:17 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
Well, the law on polygamy and polyandry where set on paper along time ago, at the present there is no way around it, it is illegal.

Now in the future will it change, yes.

So what we have regardless of your personal feelings people breaking the law. In general nobody cares unless children are harmed or these people are taking taxpayer monies.

Because these women are not legally married they are eligible to receive welfare, and apparently they are in most cases, based on your previous comments that is your issue.

Personally I just don't get it. Most of the men I know can barley deal with one wife, why would they want more.

26 posted on 12/30/2011 9:24:11 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: svcw
In general nobody cares unless children are harmed or these people are taking taxpayer monies.

Apparently a whole bunch of people care even if no taxpayer monies are involved. Just scroll up the thread for proof. And these women may be eligible for some kind of welfare. I don't know. But there's no proof that there getting it. At least no one has been able to provide any.

Personally I agree with you that polygamy is one of those "self punishing" sort of things. But that doesn't mean I think it's the business of Government to tell consenting adults, at the point of a gun btw, that they can't order their lives the way they choose to.

These people aren't harming anyone. No one here is being forced to join this relationship and there is no fraud involved that I can see. Therefore I think the Government should butt out.

L

27 posted on 12/30/2011 9:30:31 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

I have a double mind about this issue.
In a secular argument I do not care.
In a spiritual argument I am offend by the bastardization of the meaning of marriage. Marriage is between one man and one woman, it is an earthly representation of Christ and His bride, the church.
There are many links to polygamists families receiving aid, however the way the government reveals the statistics, it looks like gobble gook. I don’t have the mind set to go through it today.
There are dozens of studies that show these families have long term harm on children.
Bottom line it is at the present time illegal.


28 posted on 12/30/2011 9:56:25 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377

Your understanding is essentially correct regarding mormon concept of becoming ‘gods’. They are working hard to put that aspect under a dozen layers of obfuscation, but it is the core of their beliefs and one of the principle reasons for their exclusive temples.

this is just the tip of the lds iceberg


29 posted on 12/30/2011 10:00:11 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: svcw
Bottom line it is at the present time illegal.

It is presently illegal for insurance companies to compete across State lines, too. That doesn't mean I agree with that law any more than I agree with the law in question here.

30 posted on 12/30/2011 10:00:19 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
Because a lot of very misguided people seem to think it is their business.

And you didn't want to be left out.

31 posted on 12/30/2011 10:03:14 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Lurker
They simply want to be left alone to live their lives the way they choose. They're neither picking my pocket nor breaking my leg.

So say the gay rights thug - and by extension the pedophiles. but keep your head in the sand, polygamy will be picking your pocket by more welfare babies. Perhaps this guy is able to pay for them all - but we can't even pay for the current polygamy of men getting multiple women pregnant without marriage - now you want that behavior to be legal. You may have preferred the broken leg before its over.

32 posted on 12/30/2011 10:06:53 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

I guess you missed the multiple times I included the phrase “consenting adults”. Reading comprehension isnt your strong suit I see.


33 posted on 12/30/2011 10:09:32 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

No, I understood fully. Now your capability to see the broader issue isn’t your strong suit then. You may bleat “consenting adult” till you are blue in the face. It doesn’t negate the drive to lower the age of consent for pedo’s nor does it address the quasi polygamy in our nation. Head in the sand - give them the ok to procreate to their hearts content - and let the gov’t pick up the tab - thats how it is working today, no reason to believe otherwise in the future.


34 posted on 12/30/2011 10:14:45 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377; Colofornian; Elsie

If nothing else good comes out of having Romney as the GOP candidate, the MSM anal probe of him will hopefully open the eyes of many, who just like me 2 years ago, thought that Mormons were just another type of Christian.

After seeing the dark underside of the LDS enterprise over the last two years, with its codified and practical distinctions between men (first class) and women (second class), as well as its preference of power over love, I have come to believe that Mormonism, Inc., is little more than Islam in Christian’s clothing.


35 posted on 12/30/2011 10:22:00 AM PST by freedomlover (Make sure you're in love - before you move in the heavy stuff)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla
and let the gov’t pick up the tab - thats how it is working today

You obviously missed my plainly stated objections to this as well. Now why don't you scroll back up the thread and re-read all of my comments. That should only take you a day or two. Then get back to me.

no reason to believe otherwise in the future.

Ah, I see defeatism is another quality you possess. How charming. You must be loads of fun at parties.

36 posted on 12/30/2011 10:27:31 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

Um...Mormons were practicing Polygamy and wanting it to be legalized over a century before Lawrence v. Texas.

Polygamy is a foundational doctrine of Mormonism, which is ironic since Smith lied about it for years while practicing it at the same time.


37 posted on 12/30/2011 10:28:30 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

I think you miss the point. Lawrence v. Texas removed the legal justification keeping for the STATE to legalize polygamy.


38 posted on 12/30/2011 10:31:14 AM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377

You are correct on both counts. AFA, not publicizing doctrines, when I was training to be a Mormon missionary, I was told specifically to LIE about certain teachings (or change the subject or dissemble) because it might make people less likely to join.

Mormons tell the public one thing,(like they believe Jesus is the Son of God), but don’t tell them the rest of the story (like he is literally through sexual intercourse the son of God (and Mary who is one of God’s polygamous wives).

I’ve posted this before but will do so again here. It is an example of how the LDS twist and lie about their teachings to make it more palatable...

As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these. It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church.

Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things. A typical exchange could go like this...

non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”

LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.

non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”

LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.

Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”.

Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We saw it on this a thread the other day even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children.

Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.

Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html
“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.

Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.

Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.

Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2786065/posts?page=72#72


39 posted on 12/30/2011 10:38:08 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; Darkwolf377; mrreaganaut

The Lds don’t have copyrights to it...because Joseph’s first wife, Emma, retained that when Smith died. Emma never went West with the Brighamite Mormons. Hence, she and her sons helped jumpstart the RLDS church, which has the copyright.

- - - - - -
The LDS claim that, but MrR and I have discussed it and the JST is now in the public domain, the LDS could use it if they wanted to, in its entirety.


40 posted on 12/30/2011 10:40:26 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

Objections overruled by reality lurker. you may not like reality, but that is where we live. It is apparent that it will take professional help for you to understand reality.

My view is realistic - you’ve already surrendered and are going as far as to endorse it.


41 posted on 12/30/2011 10:45:22 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

But there is fraud involved, welfare fraud. over 80% of polygamous wives are on welfare. And allowing them to marry won’t change that, they are proud that they ‘bleed the beast’ (US Gov’t).


42 posted on 12/30/2011 10:51:15 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

They do steal government funds and the children ARE directly hurt. Ever hear of the “Lost Boys” of Utah? Ever met a woman who escaped polygamy? Ever met someone who was forced into marriage at 14 to a 60 yr old man? Ever been to Hilldale/Colorado City?

Because I have. Polygamy needs to be eradicated and the law needs to be enforced.


43 posted on 12/30/2011 10:57:09 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; Colofornian; dragonblustar

The welfare angle of polygamy has been proven over and over and over again. Sometimes that is all they prosecute on (esp in Utah where they turn a blind eye).

And it is relevant because it takes your opinion and proves it invalid since you claimed polygamy doesn’t hurt anyone or doesn’t involve fraud.

BTW, no one said you couldn’t comment, we just proved your comments asinine.


44 posted on 12/30/2011 11:09:45 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

Interesting. I hadn’t heard that.


45 posted on 12/30/2011 11:10:53 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
over 80% of polygamous wives are on welfare.

Can you prove that these people are on welfare of any kind?

And the solution to the problem is to end welfare not tell consenting adults who they can live with.

46 posted on 12/30/2011 11:12:00 AM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; Godzilla
I guess you missed the multiple times I included the phrase “consenting adults”.

(As in three homosexual guys "marrying" each other..."congrats," Lurker...you've been able to advocate that on FR without yet being zotted...pro-homosexual lurker-voyeur troll alert)

47 posted on 12/30/2011 11:14:28 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Lurker; reaganaut; svcw; Godzilla
And the solution to the problem is to end welfare not tell consenting adults who they can live with.

#1...Exactly how many anti-welfare threads have you posted, Lurker? (Or perhaps you could fill us in on all the anti-welfare activity you've done offline)

#2...Lurker, if you really want to start getting into the business of telling welfare recipients to get off welfare, aren't you breaking your staple pet doctrinnaire position of "Thou shalt mind thine own business?"

Aren't you guilty of breaking thine own commandment..? Aren't you minding the business of too many welfare recipients?

Aren't you supposed to be just sticking to your own business, per your own standard? (Or is that standard gone for good...gone with the wind because you couldn't abide by it?)

48 posted on 12/30/2011 11:21:05 AM PST by Colofornian (Martyrs don't die in shootouts! Sacrificial lambs aren't armed! J. Smith fired 2 weapons as he died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

Every time one of these cases comes up there is evidence of fraud. You have your head in the sand. Unless of course you are a polygamist.


49 posted on 12/30/2011 11:35:29 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Lurker

Then there’s that pesky part of the 1st Amendment which says “nor prohibit the free exercise thereof” to deal with.
- - - - - - -
You are forgetting something. There are laws which do limit certain aspects of religious observance, murder, trade and possession of body parts, cannibalism, and yes Polygamy have all be outlawed.

Do you support murder because it might be a religious requirement?


50 posted on 12/30/2011 11:38:47 AM PST by reaganaut (Mormonism is all about glory to self not Glory to God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-163 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson