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Which Came First: The Church or the New Testament?
Orthodoxinfo.com ^ | by Fr. James Bernstein

Posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:29 PM PST by rzman21

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To: MarDav

Sorry for double-posting.


141 posted on 12/31/2011 8:14:51 AM PST by MarDav
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To: SkyDancer

Then there is no need for the Church either.

Let’s just have each go his own way and follow Christ however they wish.


142 posted on 12/31/2011 8:52:31 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: SkyDancer

Then there is no need for the Church either.

Let’s just have each go his own way and follow Christ however they wish.


143 posted on 12/31/2011 8:52:31 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: BenKenobi

Well church is the people not some building. Gathering together to worship Yashua is good. My contention is what is the need for all the pomp and ritual. Some people require or need something like that. Some don’t.


144 posted on 12/31/2011 9:00:20 AM PST by SkyDancer ("If You Want To Learn To Love Better, You Should Start With A Friend Who You Hate")
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To: SkyDancer

Informal get togethers work for 5-10 people.

But 500 people? How are you going to get them together successfully without some form of organization?


145 posted on 12/31/2011 9:07:53 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: BenKenobi
And how can the Joel OSteens get their ego fix without the massive indoor caverns to echo their voice? ... The point the poster made is quite valid, namely that the Church is not the buildings or the organizations, it is the ekklesia, the family within whom God has placed His Spirit. The Bible message is ‘forsake not the gathering together of yourselves, but it says nothing about ‘build a big edifice to show how faithful you are’. The poor in spirit soul who begged the funds from believers to build ‘the crystal cathedral’ out in California was destined for fail, bigtime, because he even openly stated they needed to build this great glass edifice so in future generations folks might ask ‘what did these people believe; who were they?’ It took very little spiritual discernment to know that man had an agenda which was ‘doing it for God’ in order to pat himself on the back. It could not succeed any more than the Roman Coliseum could have God's blessing.
146 posted on 12/31/2011 9:48:04 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: knarf
Why are you so intent on debate?Well it is a discussion thread. I might as well ask why you are so intent on avoiding debate/ discussion? Is your faith that weak that it can't hold up to public scrutiny, is it so poor that the light of examination will cause it to wither?

Mea maxima culpa should I offend your delicate sense of heirarchy because I refuse to look laterally, rather down and ask, "Father, forgive me, a sinner" ... and He does.

In light of this discussion this comment makes absolutely no sense. Let me know if you wish to clarify or if this is just a red herring to divert.

During election cycles, we get the obligatory Mormon threads, and America under attack gets the occasional Islam threads.

Catholics seem obsessed with promoting and arguing their positions continually, and those threads always ask or propose positions that non-Catholic believers could easily take a stand against.

I surmise the Catholics in Jim's living room love a fight .. a Crusade, if you will ... and I have learned over the years, non reaction angers you the most.

actually the only thing that "angers" me is the willful ignorance of several of the anti-Catholics on the list. Seriously how many times do we have to hear "You Catholics all worship Mary" after being repeatedly told that we honor her and very clearly explaining the difference and why we do hold her in high esteem?

It is actually fun to watch your pseudo intellectualism (Gnostics still live!) deteriorate when debate always brings you to animosity against the non-Catholic. Now, I was taught the word and meaning of Catholic meant universal ... but only, apparently, if one subscribes to Catholicism.

Yes in lower case for that is correct, but in upper case it does refer to the Catholic Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, if you don't believe me go to dictionary.com.

The reason i was calling on your debate technique is that it is the liberals that resort to emotional arguments and as conservatives we should be above that

147 posted on 12/31/2011 9:48:04 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: rzman21

Thank you again for your recent posts. It is good to have robust and well argued Orthodox presence on this forum.


148 posted on 12/31/2011 9:52:14 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MHGinTN
The Bible message is ‘forsake not the gathering together of yourselves, but it says nothing about ‘build a big edifice to show how faithful you are’.

Exactly...good point and needs to be remembered.

149 posted on 12/31/2011 10:01:16 AM PST by caww
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To: MHGinTN

And, as future ages will note, the Cathedral is now Catholic.

It would be nice to get back the other buildings that have been stolen as well. If the buildings mean nothing, then why were they taken away from us? From the folks that worked to put them together?

It seems to me that the buildings do mean something to you - a rejection of what you stand for and must be torn down in order that we might worship God more perfectly.

But that’s not your call to make. You are free to do as you wish, to worship God in the manner in which you feel is best. But, if you believe that scripture justifies your position, you’ll have to take it up with the 7th ecumenical council, which came to the conclusion that we may honor God through art and other depictions of the Saints.


150 posted on 12/31/2011 10:02:52 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: johngrace

Some reason why a link wouldn’t have worked to this huge post? Why is it catholics have to run volumes across the threads? Do they really think people stop to read someone elses writings when they are looking for dialogue with the poster?


151 posted on 12/31/2011 10:04:08 AM PST by caww
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To: MHGinTN

And yet despite all the attempts to destroy the Church through the centuries, she remains a beacon of Gospel light.

All sorts of man-made organizations will come and go, have come and gone; yet the Church that has her earthly headquarters in Rome and the bishop of Rome as her leader remains and shall remain until the end.


152 posted on 12/31/2011 10:09:31 AM PST by Notwithstanding (1998 ACU ratings: Newt=100%, Paul=88%, Santorum=84% [the last year all were in Congress])
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To: rzman21

I have watched recently a number of programs which posed questions regarding the NT, such as, who wrote the gospels, when were they written and which were chosen and which were rejected.

One program discounted the nativity stories and said that the authors contrived some things in order to boost their claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

So, whom do we trust? How do we know that what we have is what God wants us to have? Like the author, I was intrigued by the fact that so many books were excluded and how the eventual canon was declared.

I found my questions answered and so place my trust in the Church. I trust the authority that Scripture says Christ gave His Church.


153 posted on 12/31/2011 10:37:06 AM PST by Jvette
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To: BenKenobi

Do you always make such inane leaps of reasoning when you find you’re lost in the discussion? I have stated not one thing about tearing down edifices. That they are built for someone or some org to pat oneself on the back for doing this great thing for God is waht I addressed. So, because you too seem to need to frame my posts in a fashion you can attack, Have Nice Day.


154 posted on 12/31/2011 10:55:01 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: rzman21

This will of course be rejected by those who think the last thing that Jesus did before the Ascension was to hand several bound copies of the King James Version of the Bible (with all of His quotes in red text) to the Apostles to use as their only reference to His teachings.


155 posted on 12/31/2011 11:07:17 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: BenKenobi
But 500 people? How are you going to get them together successfully without some form of organization?

Brush arbors sufficed in the frontier era of this nation.

156 posted on 12/31/2011 11:08:08 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: annalex; rzman21
Thank you again for your recent posts. It is good to have robust and well argued Orthodox presence on this forum.

But, it doesn't appear that our new FRiend actually is Eastern Orthodox.

157 posted on 12/31/2011 11:10:56 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

Have you attended one?

I have, it’s not shall we say, *lacking* in formal structure.

I don’t see anything wrong with a formal liturgy. Some choose to meet in a house, others in a church that was built 500 years ago. I personally prefer the house, as I enjoy spending time with my friends, but there is nothing wrong with the alternatives.


158 posted on 12/31/2011 11:15:38 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: MHGinTN

So you -aren’t- an iconoclast? Okay. Sure sounded like it to me.

Again those same edifices are perfectly fine. You may not like them, but there’s nothing in scripture which bars them from being built.

“That they are built for someone or some org to pat oneself on the back for doing this great thing for God”

Most of the really big ones took generations to finish. So the one that decided to begin the project wasn’t the one to even see it completed. So I’m not quite sure where the personal edification comes in.

Sure, Crystal Cathedral is an exception to this, which, hence the irony of it becoming Catholic. God can take what was done for the wrong reasons and use it to good ends.

Anyways, apologies then. Blessings to you and yours.


159 posted on 12/31/2011 11:22:12 AM PST by BenKenobi (You know, you really need to break free of that Catholic mindset.- metmom)
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To: RegulatorCountry; rzman21
Both this and the previous post that I noticed, A Defense of the Holy Icons are from Orthodox sources.

By the way, Rzman, if you made more Orthodox apologia posts like that, send me a link. I am putting them on my profile page for future reference.

160 posted on 12/31/2011 11:23:42 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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