Skip to comments."What will happen to Catholics and others . . . ?"
Posted on 01/08/2012 12:46:11 PM PST by bkopto
One of my superstar former students, writing about his experience at one of our nation's premier law schools, sent me a note after reading my MOJ post on marriage, religious liberty, and the "grand bargain." Here is the text, with names removed to protect the innocent:
I had a first-hand experience with this reality in law school. One of my constitutional law professors taught the section of our course relating to same-sex marriage under the "inevitability" banner. I met with him in office hours later to talk to him about something else, but I brought up a question that I have been wrestling with: if the SSM advocates are right and opposition to SSM becomes analogous to racism in our society, what will happen to Catholics and others whose views on SSM cannot and will not change? Are they to be excluded from public office, political and judicial appointments, or places of trust and responsibility within private institutions (e.g., law firm partnerships)? I posed the question to him because I was curious to hear his response, since he is generally a kind and reasonable person who seemed open to other viewpoints.
His response was very disappointing, and it shook my confidence in him. He responded to me by saying something along the lines of: "Well, they [Catholics and others] will either have to change their views or be treated in the same way that white supremacists and the segregationist Senators were treated. They were excluded from the judiciary entirely for decades because of the South's views on race."
He evinced no sympathy for the traditional marriage position or those who hold it. They were to be relegated to the ash heap of history. He said all of this to me knowing full well (because I had foolishly just told him) that I was a Catholic who opposed SSM.
Is anyone prepared to say that the view expressed by the professor is merely a fringe opinion in the contemporary academy? Is anyone prepared to say that it is the view of only a small minority, or a minority at all, in what University of Virginia sociologist Jonathan Haidt calls the liberal tribal-moral community of contemporary academia? Would anyone deny that there is a significant element in the elite sector of the culture---an element with real power over the lives and careers of people like my former student---that wishes to penalize or discriminate against those who refuse in conscience to yield to the liberal orthodoxy on issues of sex and marriage? Consider the professor's own words. He made no effort to hide his goals and intentions. On the contrary, he made it abundantly clear that Catholics and others who persist in their dissent are to be treated the way we treat white supremacists. They are to be stigmatized, subjected to discrimination, and denied the right to hold certain offices.
And this professor, as my student observed, is a "generally a kind and reasonable person who seems open to other viewpoints." What are we to expect, then, from those who are even less "open to other viewpoints"?
Just......unreal and “nightmarish”...
Pray for our nation.
I occasionally read these stories written by people unfamiliar with college culture. This is not exclusive to elite law schools or elite universities more generally. These sorts of views and this culture is pervasive at colleges throughout the US and in such nations as Australia. It has been pervasive for a couple of decades, at least.
It may seem implausible to people outside academia but, I assure you, it is deeply rooted and pervasive. For years, it has excluded alternative views.
Newt mentioned a piece of this last night.
Christians are under fire. Catholic Orphanages are being closed, soon Catholic Hospitals will be closed because they refuse abortions. Soon Catholic Doctors may face law suits for refusing to kill a fetus.
This is all just a part of what the ACLU , Atheists,Liberals and Obama have in store for us.
Freedom of religion is why this country exists today and it’s going away fast.
Ask the Professor what would happen if he expressed such views in an Islamic country. Then ask him if there is any distinction of what he would suggest to do to the Catholics versus what the Islamists would do to him.
This is either a country of Christians who will stand or it will be a totalitarian nightmare.
Freedom is a gift from God. Cut your ties to God and you will lose your freedom. I never saw it as plainly until recent years but it becomes more plain and more clear every day.
Christianity, as currently professed, is committed to egalitarianism, thus it cannot effectively resist sodomite demands. Christianity is being hoisted on its own petard.
you’ve got to beware of giving government the power to exclude nthe “bad”. One day you might find that you are one of them
Excellent point. But somehow the Islamists will allowed to hold their views on marriage and sexuality without persecution while Christians will not.
Is it! Christianity is, in fact, very exclusive. Not about gender, race, or even orientation, but about your relationship with Christ.
“This is either a country of Christians who will stand or it will be a totalitarian nightmare.
“Freedom is a gift from God. Cut your ties to God and you will lose your freedom. I never saw it as plainly until recent years but it becomes more plain and more clear every day.”
Indeed. Religious liberty is quickly becoming a thing of the past sadly.
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And how. I recently had an icon of mine taken down in a VA clinical room. The explanation given was that it was a Freedom of Religion issue. I remarked, “explain to me how taking down a religious item is Freedom of Religion”. It all revolved around ‘lest someone be offended...” type argument.
So, I said, “So in order to have freedom of religion, you must suppress religious expression?” Silence. The icon stayed down. I have not returned.
They (we) will be discriminated against, ‘re-educated’, held without trial or evidence, and eventually killed if they (we) don’t submit.
I have pretty much come the realization that I will either be killed or imprisoned by my own government because of my Christian faith. But I will go down fighting.
But the truth is that the Anglicans have been ordaining practicing homosexuals for years and has even elevated them to the level of Bishop.
There was a piece on 60 minutes about a year ago in which the Baptists have ordained women and are officiating at same sex unions.
The seeds for a second American revolution are being planted.
“what can Catholics expect?”
Jesus told all Christians what to expect in John 16:2.
“They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.”
That’s what you signed up for when you became a Christian. Wanna quit?
....Or we WILL see a second American revolution happen, it is not a of “if”, but “when”.
It is unconstitutional to acknowledge SSM as a “right”. It is absurd. It is unnatural and against God’s Laws and against Moral Law-—which comes from Natural Law Theory—the Basis of our Constitution. Right Reason-—means based on Logic, Reason and Science. Biology decries—putting body parts in incompatible holes-—and it can’t sanction such stupid acts and behaviors. It denies natural rights of offspring and destroys the idea of Duty-—inherent in Just Law and the reason for any social contracts.
Their is NO REASONING in laws which find “Rights” is stupid, dysfunctional and unnatural behaviors. All twin studies PROVE that it is learned behavior-—just as the orientation to rape babies or bestiality. We are not born with “urges” to defile body parts and the law (and media) should never glorify this evil act.
Sodomy is evil. They are forcing the laws to conform to other than “the laws of nature” into a pathetical illogical, unscientific laws-—TOTALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL. God is the Standard of Right and Wrong in our legal system-—all Jurisprudence proves that and states it in cases throughout our history. The idea of Supra Positive Law is from our Constitution—and it will always state that sodomy is evil and unconstitutional to establish as a “right”. Utter stupidity and evil.
Some Baptists may have done so but there is no such thing as THE Baptists. Baptist churches are by definition autonomous so any Baptist church can be as liberal or conservative as it wants to be. That’s why you can find Baptists all over the spectrum from to the left of Jesse Jackson all the way to the right of the late Jerry Falwell.
This process is already well along the way. Right now seminars are being put on by my state’s bar association to “educate” all lawyers about the same-sex union act that went into effect on 1/1, and what our responsibilities now are as lawyers to recognize this “civil right.”
I am expecting a second American revolution to happen in my lifetime.
At this exact moment, they are the very small minority, but as professors continue to teach lies to our youth, it will be spread quickly. God will not be mocked, and His Justice will be enacted. God help us during these times of darkness.
That would be the third American Revolution. The second, the Southern secession, failed, and we have been an empire ever since.
I remember the controversy when the Christian Scientists refused to subject their children to chemo
As a note, please do not lump together "Baptists" as being monolithic in doctrine as is the Roman Catholic manifestation. There are many kinds of (ana)baptists, whose only complete uniformity in practices is that they are (1) not paedobaptisers and (2) they are immersionists.
One subgroup, the independent, fundamental, Bible-believing New Testament immersionist confessors never has contemplated a polity of women or Sodomite pastors; nor of marriages of the plural or same-sex variety (and usually not of the remarriage adultery sort, either).
>>Freedom of religion is why this country exists today and its going away fast.<<
With the exception of the special privileges that Islam, the anti-religion, enjoys in this country.
Begging your pardon, Christanity has ever been egalitarian in individual worth, but not in gender, role, and function. Furthermore, Biblical conduct has never recognized unnatural diversions as conduct acceptable to The God.
we will eventually be ostracized, and same-sex unions will likely be the mechanism used, primarily.
Laws and regulation are useful to the left as a means of correcting what they deem as either irrational or inappropriate behavior. But they do not apply to the left. And the usefulness of championing SSM is not so much doing of right, in light of the left’s love of “moral relativism,” but precisely because it may be employed to destroy the traditional family, and thus, American society as a whole.
Not to mention how pervasive political correctness is in the corporate world. I spent many years quietly enduring exposure to “inclusiveness” and “diversity” gabble at company meetings. I’m sure many here have. That PC garbage will ensure that at least some relatively malleable folks, or those ill-equipped with the facts may feel that SSM isn’t “so bad.”
For the momentum to be stopped, among other things, the regime would have to change, with the new one being a literal 180º from the current one. Every head office would have to have a mandate to immediately rework this garbage, out of the system. And that doesn’t take into account existing laws, or the time between now and the election. I don’t bet. If I did, it’d be very tempting to say that it’s a bet that the admin will move like lightning to get it done by election time. Not so much the oppression of we who oppose it, yet, but implementation of a national SSM law, or at least a bill.
I think we’ll see this happen. And I think the second-class citizen treatment will happen, too. Look at it this way. MF Global went down Oct. 31. No one arrested. Customers funds frozen, and liable, perhaps, to clawback. Corzine walks through a soft testimony. No laws enforced. BK misfiled so creditors come first, not customers. If the administration’s friends and fund-raisers can be this blatant, where is the impetus for them to stop? It may not be immediate, but it will be soon. Pray.
I am an old Christian believer - On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking stand - from the chorus of an old hymn. I have known and talked to many ministers of various denominations including some Catholic priests. If I were forced to use only one word to describe them, I would say non confrontational. They have forgotten Martin Luther’s famous “here I stand” saying before the Diet at Worms.
“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand, May God help me. Amen”.
**.” What are we to expect, then, from those who are even less “open to other viewpoints”?**
I don’t think the professor would like God’s answer to him on this!
Most people will do what ever the authority tells them to. That is the aspect of human nature most conservatives and all libertarians don’t realize.
See you in the catacombs.
"Mass" used in a double sense.
Yes, this is very true.
I’m a survivor of academia. Originally an agnostic. Became Christian at university and this attitude is very pervasive.
University becomes a 4 year never-ending slog of being told that you are wrong, that you are stupid for believing what you do, etc.
And this student shouldn’t be surprised. Catholics were and have been oppressed in the US before. This attitude is why I refuse to go into the teaching profession where I am from (as they require teachers to teach SSM), and have relocated to TX.
I’m glad to see this kid waking up to hatred and bigotry. We need more young conservatives to wake up and realize what’s truly going on.
And as Paul himself said - “expel the immoral brother”.
It is true. I know of other Baptists who are doing the same.
And I like Baptists. Arguing they are not ‘true’ Baptists is wrong. You should be condemning them for abadoning Christ.
kind, reasonable and LOST. It’s not enough to be kind and reasonable. Must have truth.
Also expect to be denied Internet access early on when one’s bookmarks are found to contain URLs pointing to Christian sites, or, horror of horrors, to a web site name with Christ or Blessed Virgin Mary in the title. My frequent visits to http://ageofmary.com/ will put me on the DHS most wanted list.
Whether someone agrees with the Catholic Church or not, anyone with an IQ higher than the recommended tire pressure on the sidewall of their auto tires should see that the Catholic Church and the way the government tries to bind and/or regulate the Catholic Church is the canary in the coal mine and has been ever since the number of Catholic in this country grew beyond about 10% of the population. Given that fact, anyone who ignores the current open government assault on the Catholic Church is ignoring what will be coming their way as well once the precedent is established against the Catholic Church in this country.
The democrat fascist party has had a long term, multi-generational goal, of excluding Catholics from politics as well as from any and all government jobs including the military. All you have to do is read about the attacks on the Catholic Church back in the eighteen seventies when the Catholic Church warned that public schools would lead to a Godless, secular society, to see the exact same attacks are being used today with only the definition of "the public good" having been changed to suit the relativistic humanism now in vogue among gullible dolts and ruling nobles. Back then, the fascist democrat party was quite successful in keeping the popular alternative of a voucher type system from being enacted and in doing so placed public schools squarely under the control of politicians rather than parents. If that isnt convincing enough, read about the number of democrat elected officials who signed the KKK pledge to never hire a Catholic, Jew, or Negro, for a government job when they were running for office in the nineteen twenties riding another wave of only slightly modified lies to mislead that generation of the gullible into believing that no Jew and no Catholic should ever be in an elected office. Those that the fascist party makes sure are ostricised the fascist party then promises it will save them from that status of being outsiders.
The fact that these days there are so many non-Catholic denominations just means that there are no longer other Christian voting blocs the fascists think they have to accommodate or crush. The democrat fascist party has never changed a single one of its goals. Those goals have always been the elimination of Christianity, the creation of a ruling nobility that either owns or otherwise absolutely controls the rest of the population and ever since the Darwin, the creation of a superior race by implementing eugenics solutions dictated by the ruling nobility. Class, Race, antisemitism, and anti-Catholicism, have been the standard weapons of the democrat fascist party for as long as that party has existed. So far, theyve orchestrated those weapons well enough that theyve been the ruling majority at least since WWII due to their ability to first ostracize and then promise inclusion to those very same groups they intend to eventually be shed of. The democrat party has never and will never define the common good as anything that is in any way compatible with the Bill of Rights, and yet, the democrat fascist party still exists.
Where are the patriots who used to exist in such numbers that they instilled fear in elected officials when someone even suggested ignoring the Constitution? Where are the mass rallies against Obama and his criminal behavior? Does the fascist party have a patent on mass demonstrations of the sort that Congress critters can't ignore? How is it that OWS is in the news but not a peep is heard from the millions who claim to be aghast at the way the current President ignores and defies the Constitution? Has playing the game become the goal or are there still large numbers of people who will not accept the end of our Constitution at the hands of a fascist nobility led by a foreign usurper?
PS - Sorry to be so verbose, but, when weve gone so far down the toilet that folks are considering the details of how the dictatorial fascist party lead by a narcissist will deny rights to Catholics who are protected by the First Amendment, I felt I needed to say a good bit in order to avoid saying something succinct and off color.
Looks like the battle lines are being drawn.
In the example of the revered law professor, Christians who haven't gotten the message by now will be lumped with "separatists and KKK". Except that in the old days, separatists and KKK had a (D) label, which was the path to political power in much of the Old South, and (more quietly), the Old North. Even today, modern liberalism owes much to racists in their closet. Like being a nazi, they have to let sleeping bad guys lie. But it's still a mark of distinction to support every commie from Marx to Putin.
As far as Christians go, some congregations sold out, or quietly swept it under the rug. Those that still oppose SSM and abortion are following the same beliefs they always had. The world just changed underneath their feet, but they didn't cause that.
Interestingly, Islam holds the same views, but for some strange reason won't even merit a disapproving glance, much less the promise to make them something less than second-class citizens.
Nicely said. The left will try to play “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” but it will backfire when those jihadists decide that the opportune time has come. But the left looks for anything that helps it’s goals, while paying scant attention to afterward.
The awful words of OBL, who represented that which the left wishes to ally with said: “Our talks with the infidel West and our conflict with them ultimately revolve around one issueone that demands our total support, with power and determination, with one voiceand it is: Does islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in islam:  either willing submission [conversion]; or  payment of the jizya, through physical, though not spiritual, submission to the authority of islam; or  the sword for it is not right to let him [an infidel] live. The matter is summed up for every person alive: Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of islam, or die.”
That WILL bite them in the hindquarters.
Yes, the slippery slope which we are constantly berated for mentioning and told it is “scare tactics”.
I and I would bet, many others here knew from the beginning that this issue would be used to silence Christians and that the left would persecute those who oppose it.
I and I would bet, many others here also knew that eventually it would be considered discrimination and then illegal for churches to refuse to recognize and officiate same sex “marriage”.
It is coming.
Christians must learn to FIGHT this oppression!
Know the Constitution, Know your Faith!
The “falling away” is real.
Many years ago, I had a beginning law course professor who would joke about firing up furnaces when pressed on what should happen to people who resisted the government schools’ socialization process.