Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Nestorius on Mary as the Mother of God
Monachos ^ | Nestorius of Constantinople

Posted on 01/09/2012 10:38:02 PM PST by rzman21

Nestorius of Constantinople, Second epistle to Cyril of Alexandria WRITTEN BY NESTORIUS OF CONSTANTINOPLE

Nestorius sends greeting in the Lord to the most religious and reverend fellow-minister Cyril. I pass over the insults against us contained in your extraordinary letter. They will, I think, be cured by my patience and by the answer which events will offer in the course of time. On one matter, however, I cannot be silent, as silence would in that case be very dangerous. On that point, therefore avoiding longwindedness as far as I can, I shall attempt a brief discussion and try to be as free as possible from repelling obscurity and undigestible prolixity. I shall begin from the wise utterances of your reverence, setting them down word for word. What then are the words in which your remarkable teaching finds expression ?

“The holy and great synod states that the only begotten Son, begotten of God the Father according to nature, true God from true God, the light from the light, the one through whom the Father made all things, came down, became incarnate, became man, suffered, rose.”

These are the words of your reverence and you may recognise them. Now listen to what we say, which takes the form of a brotherly exhortation to piety of the type of which the great apostle Paul gave an example in addressing his beloved Timothy: “Attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. For by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers”. Tell me, what does “attend” mean? By reading in a superficial way the tradition of those holy men (you were guilty of a pardonable ignorance), you concluded that they said that the Word who is coeternal with the Father was passible. Please look more closely at their language and you will find out that that divine choir of fathers never said that the consubstantial godhead was capable of suffering, or that the whole being that was coeternal with the Father was recently born, or that it rose again, seeing that it had itself been the cause of resurrection of the destroyed temple. If you apply my words as fraternal medicine, I shall set the words of the holy fathers before you and shall free them from the slander against them and through them against the holy scriptures.

“I believe”, they say, “also in our Lord Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son”. See how they first lay as foundations “Lord” and “Jesus” and “Christ” and “only begotten” and “Son”, the names which belong jointly to the divinity and humanity. Then they build on that foundation the tradition of the incarnation and resurrection and passion. In this way, by prefixing the names which are common to each nature, they intend to avoid separating expressions applicable to sonship and lordship and at the same time escape the danger of destroying the distinctive character of the natures by absorbing them into the one title of “Son”. In this Paul was their teacher who, when he remembers the divine becoming man and then wishes to introduce the suffering, first mentions “Christ”, which, as I have just said, is the common name of both natures and then adds an expression which is appropriate to both of the natures. For what does he say ? “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus who though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”, and so on until, “he became obedient unto death, even death on a cross”. For when he was about to mention the death, to prevent anyone supposing that God the Word suffered, he says “Christ”, which is a title that expresses in one person both the impassible and the passible natures, in order that Christ might be called without impropriety both impassible and passible impassible in godhead, passible in the nature of his body.

I could say much on this subject and first of all that those holy fathers, when they discuss the economy, speak not of the generation but of the Son becoming man. But I recall the promise of brevity that I made at the beginning and that both restrains my discourse and moves me on to the second subject of your reverence. In that I applaud your division of natures into manhood and godhead and their conjunction in one person. I also applaud your statement that God the Word needed no second generation from a woman, and your confession that the godhead is incapable of suffering. Such statements are truly orthodox and equally opposed to the evil opinions of all heretics about the Lord’s natures. If the remainder was an attempt to introduce some hidden and incomprehensible wisdom to the ears of the readers, it is for your sharpness to decide. In my view these subsequent views seemed to subvert what came first. They suggested that he who had at the beginning been proclaimed as impassible and incapable of a second generation had somehow become capable of suffering and freshly created, as though what belonged to God the Word by nature had been destroyed by his conjunction with his temple or as though people considered it not enough that the sinless temple, which is inseparable from the divine nature, should have endured birth and death for sinners, or finally as though the Lord’s voice was not deserving of credence when it cried out to the Jews: “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. He did not say, “Destroy my godhead and in three days it will be raised up.”

Again I should like to expand on this but am restrained by the memory of my promise. I must speak therefore but with brevity. Holy scripture, wherever it recalls the Lord’s economy, speaks of the birth and suffering not of the godhead but of the humanity of Christ, so that the holy virgin is more accurately termed mother of Christ than mother of God. Hear these words that the gospels proclaim: “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham.” It is clear that God the Word was not the son of David. Listen to another witness if you will: “Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called the Christ. “ Consider a further piece of evidence: “Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, she was found to be with child of the holy Spirit.” But who would ever consider that the godhead of the only begotten was a creature of the Spirit? Why do we need to mention: “the mother of Jesus was there”? And again what of: “with Mary the mother of Jesus”; or “that which is conceived in her is of the holy Spirit”; and “Take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt”; and “concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh”? Again, scripture says when speaking of his passion: “God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh”; and again “Christ died for our sins” and “Christ having suffered in the flesh”; and “This is”, not “my godhead”, but “my body, broken for you”.

Ten thousand other expressions witness to the human race that they should not think that it was the godhead of the Son that was recently killed but the flesh which was joined to the nature of the godhead. (Hence also Christ calls himself the lord and son of David: “ ‘What do you think of the Christ ? Whose son is he ?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘How is it then that David inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, “The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand”?’”. He said this as being indeed son of David according to the flesh, but his Lord according to his godhead.) The body therefore is the temple of the deity of the Son, a temple which is united to it in a high and divine conjunction, so that the divine nature accepts what belongs to the body as its own. Such a confession is noble and worthy of the gospel traditions. But to use the expression “accept as its own” as a way of diminishing the properties of the conjoined flesh, birth, suffering and entombment, is a mark of those whose minds are led astray, my brother, by Greek thinking or are sick with the lunacy of Apollinarius and Arius or the other heresies or rather something more serious than these.

For it is necessary for such as are attracted by the name “propriety” to make God the Word share, because of this same propriety, in being fed on milk, in gradual growth, in terror at the time of his passion and in need of angelical assistance. I make no mention of circumcision and sacrifice and sweat and hunger, which all belong to the flesh and are adorable as having taken place for our sake. But it would be false to apply such ideas to the deity and would involve us in just accusation because of our calumny.

These are the traditions of the holy fathers. These are the precepts of the holy scriptures. In this way does someone write in a godly way about the divine mercy and power, “Practise these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. This is what Paul says to all. The care you take in labouring for those who have been scandalised is well taken and we are grateful to you both for the thought you devote to things divine and for the concern you have even for those who live here. But you should realise that you have been misled either by some here who have been deposed by the holy synod for Manichaeism or by clergy of your own persuasion. In fact the church daily progresses here and through the grace of Christ there is such an increase among the people that those who behold it cry out with the words of the prophet, “The earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the water covers the sea”. As for our sovereigns, they are in great joy as the light of doctrine is spread abroad and, to be brief, because of the state of all the heresies that fight against God and of the orthodoxy of the church, one might find that verse fulfilled “The house of Saul grew weaker and weaker and the house of David grew stronger and stronger”.

This is our advice from a brother to a brother. “If anyone is disposed to be contentious”, Paul will cry out through us to such a one, “we recognize no other practice, neither do the churches of God”. I and those with me greet all the brotherhood with you in Christ. May you remain strong and continue praying for us, most honoured and reverent lord.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-165 next last
Who agrees with this?
1 posted on 01/09/2012 10:38:08 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: rzman21

“Mother of Christ”...?

Straight from the source, excellent post. Thanks.


2 posted on 01/09/2012 10:50:04 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

I’m not aware of any organized body that fully agrees with Nestorius—since he was condemned as a heretic by the unified Church (East and West) during his lifetime. This was because he denied a union between God’s eternal nature and Jesus’ human nature was possible—as shown here. Logically then Jesus would have to be two persons, not one, God the eternal Son being one, Jesus the man being another. This deconstructs Jesus, making His human nature not simultaneously divine. This is not orthodoxy—and gave birth to a group called the Nestorians.

What is your point?


3 posted on 01/09/2012 10:53:55 PM PST by AnalogReigns (because REALITY is never digital...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

I thought it was an interesting article - a bit confusing but interesting. But don’t agree with it. Also wondering why you thought it warranted its own thread, rather than just keeping it in the thread you posted it to 10 minutes ago?


4 posted on 01/09/2012 11:16:25 PM PST by 21twelve
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

What sith the Scriptures?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” (John 1:1-2)

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotton of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconcilation. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconcilation.” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19)

“But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were made under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake to unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High;”

We could sum it all up with: “He that gets the Son gets it all!”

“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and He that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” (1 John 5:11-12)


5 posted on 01/10/2012 3:00:32 AM PST by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnalogReigns; rzman21; 21twelve; Iscool; Uri’el-2012
AnalogI’m not aware of any organized body that fully agrees with Nestorius

Nestorius publicly challenged the long-used title Theotokos (Bringer forth of God) for the Virgin Mary. He suggested that the title denied Christ's full humanity, arguing instead that Jesus had two natures, the divine Logos and the human Jesus. As such he proposed Christotokos (Bringer forth of Christ) as a more suitable title for Mary.

This would be similar to the philosophies propounded by iscool or Uri'el.

and we see a lot of these views pushed on FreeRepublic...

6 posted on 01/10/2012 4:54:16 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: rzman21


Mother of God of Jerusalem

Post an open thread honoring the Mother of God and watch who comes out.

7 posted on 01/10/2012 5:24:46 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Iscool; Uri’el-2012; rzman21

So that would make iscool and Uri’el semi-Nestorians?


8 posted on 01/10/2012 5:28:25 AM PST by mas cerveza por favor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: mas cerveza por favor; rzman21

it depends, most would say “have no clue, just irrationally hate orthodoxy”


9 posted on 01/10/2012 5:50:00 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
This would be similar to the philosophies propounded by iscool or Uri'el.

Ten thousand other expressions witness to the human race that they should not think that it was the godhead of the Son that was recently killed but the flesh which was joined to the nature of the godhead. (Hence also Christ calls himself the lord and son of David: “ ‘What do you think of the Christ ? Whose son is he ?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘How is it then that David inspired by the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, “The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand”?’”. He said this as being indeed son of David according to the flesh, but his Lord according to his godhead.) The body therefore is the temple of the deity of the Son, a temple which is united to it in a high and divine conjunction, so that the divine nature accepts what belongs to the body as its own.

First off, it makes absolutely no difference what a person thinks or believes about it...It doesn't affect a person's salvation one way or the other...

But yes, I believe Nestorius' position is the biblical one...

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

'Form' can be translated as nature...Verse 6 says Jesus had the nature of God while verse 7 says Jesus also had the nature of a servant and ultimately, the flesh...

But regardless, are you contending as Nestorius accused that the God-head died??? Is the God-head separable enough that one part of it can die???

I don't think so...But one thing is for sure and that is that Jesus had a human, corrupt body in the flesh...It could die obviously...It could and did age with time...

THAT body died...And then it was changed...It apparently was still a physical body to a degree, or when called upon to be a physical body, it certainly isn't the old corruptible flesh that Jesus was born with...

Whatever the physical Jesus was before he died is not at all the same physical Jesus that resurrected...

But I am satisfied that Nestorius had a good understanding of the scriptures when he wrote on the subject...Jesus temporarily had a human body and it was supernaturally somehow joined to the divinity of the God-head...I don't need to know how or why...

10 posted on 01/10/2012 6:04:17 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

Yet he was condemmed as being a heretic.


11 posted on 01/10/2012 6:18:02 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; metmom; RnMomof7; caww; Mr Rogers; one Lord one faith one baptism; smvoice; ...
Iscool: .Jesus temporarily had a human body and it was supernaturally somehow joined to the divinity of the God-head

Iscool: Whatever the physical Jesus was before he died is not at all the same physical Jesus that resurrected.

ok, thank you for sharing your views.

12 posted on 01/10/2012 6:53:23 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: rzman21; Cronos
Here is a list of heresy links on FR -- some more insight into the Nestorian heresy.

Nestorius on Mary as the Mother of God (Ecumenical)
The Day Nestorius Rocked the Church and an Empire
How Quickly Catholic Heresy Took Over the Church (Immediately)
Hilaire Belloc’s “The Great Heresies” now available in EPUB format
Chapter 6: The Modern Phase [The Great Heresies]
Chapter 5: What Was The Reformation? [The Great Heresies]
Chapter 4: The Albigensian Attack [The Great Heresies]
Chapter 3: The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed [The Great Heresies]
Chapter 2: The Arian Heresy [The Great Heresies
Chapter 1: Scheme Of This Book [The Great Heresies]

Introduction: Heresy [The Great Heresies]
The Great Heresies
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Succumbs to Heresy
The Bishop Discovers Heresy?
From Orthodox to Heresy: The Secularizing of Catholic Universities
Progressivism/Liberalism is Heresy [Excellent read & reference]
Is heresy better than schism? [Ecumenical]
Modernism: The Modernist Heresy
THE GREAT HERESIES-THE MODERN PHASE

The Protestant Heresy
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene
Americanism, Then and Now: Our Pet Heresy (encyclical of Pope Leo XIII)
Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times
The Plain Truth About The Baptist Bride Heresy
Balthasar, Hell, and Heresy: An Exchange (is it compatable with the Catholic faith?)
Know Your Heresies
The Rev. John Piper: an interesting look at "heresy vs. schism"
Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy
Heresy
Arian Heresy Still Tempts, Says Cardinal Bertone (Mentions Pelagianism As Well)

Catholic Discussion] Church group stays faithful (to heresy!)
An overview of modern anti-Trinitarian heresies
Where heresy and dissent abound [Minnesota]
Gnostic Gospels - the heresy entitled "Gnosticism."
Christian mavericks find affirmation in ancient heresies
The So-Called ‘Gospel’ of Judas: Unmasking an Ancient Heresy
Benedict XVI Heresies and Errors
Donatism (Know your heresies)
The Heresy of Mohammed (Chapter 4, The Great Heresies)
Father & Son Catholic Writers Tag-Team Old & New Heresies

13 posted on 01/10/2012 8:22:27 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

As one Biblical scholar said to me, “No real heresy ever dies.”

He was right, you can still find folks who would find Nestorius’ heresy as supporting their YOPIS theology.


14 posted on 01/10/2012 9:00:42 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnalogReigns

You are right that orthodox Christians of all sects reject the heresy of Nestorious. The point I believe is that the title of Theotokos or Mother of God, which is given to Mary was given to refute the Nestorian heresy not to claim she was the Mother of the God the Father, first person of the Holy Trinity.


15 posted on 01/10/2012 9:08:58 AM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AnalogReigns
I’m not aware of any organized body that fully agrees with Nestorius

Well, the "Assyrian Church of the East" is a historically Nestorian body. Whether they "fully agree" or ever fully agreed with Nestorius is certainly debatable.

16 posted on 01/10/2012 9:15:04 AM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; Iscool; Uri’el-2012; Religion Moderator

Sounds like that’s making it personal to me by bringing in names and topics cross threads.


17 posted on 01/10/2012 12:19:40 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: lastchance
The point I believe is that the title of Theotokos or Mother of God, which is given to Mary was given to refute the Nestorian heresy not to claim she was the Mother of the God the Father, first person of the Holy Trinity.

And yet that's what is says.

Saying that she is the mother of Christ in no way denies either Jesus' humanity nor His divinity. It simply and accurately states a fact, which calling Mary the mother of God does not because it can be so easily misinterpreted.

18 posted on 01/10/2012 12:23:50 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Cronos

A mention of one Freeper’s understanding of another Freeper’s belief is not making the thread “about” him as long as the thread can stay on the issues. If the mention is inflammatory - certain or likely to incite a flamewar - then it is not tolerable.


19 posted on 01/10/2012 12:25:33 PM PST by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: metmom

Only by those who are confused by the Hypostatic Union, that Christ is one person with two natures; being fully human and fully divine. Nestorious rejected that Mary was the mother of the Incarnate Word and asserted she was the mother of Jesus’s humanity only. This is from the
Christians and Apologetics Research Ministry.

“Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius, who was born in Syria and died in 451 AD, who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople and he repudiated the Marian title “Mother of God.” He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.

Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.

The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.”

So the title Mother of Christ was indeed used to deny that Christ was fully divine and fully human in one person. The reason the titles Theotokos and Mother of God are rejected now is because of hyper anti Catholicism, not from any sound Christological precept.


20 posted on 01/10/2012 12:33:18 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: lastchance
All of the Protestant Reformers referred to Mary as the Mother of God. The Council of Chalcedon decreed the following regarding Jesus's Divinity and Humanity. We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεὸν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcedonian_Definition The Anti-Chalcedonians like the Copts, Syriacs, Armenians, Ethiopians, and the Malankaras share a common belief even though they reject the terminology for historical reasons. The Coptic Pope Shenouda III goes into depth regarding the teachings of the Council of Ephesus against Nestorianism. http://st-takla.org/Feastes-&-Special-Events/Virgin-Mary-Fast/Saint-Mary-Fast_Virgin-Life-Hymns-mp3s-02-Pope-Shenouda-Virgin-Mary-Book.html
21 posted on 01/10/2012 1:22:58 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

Mary was the mother of Jesus. You either believe Jesus was both God and man or you don’t. I believe.


22 posted on 01/10/2012 1:34:47 PM PST by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lastchance

The whole premise for changing the name seems faulty. The answer would better of have been to insure that correct teaching of the nature of who the Christ is would be instead of changing a title from one that is accurate and precise to one that is less so.

If the concern is heresy, I can’t see that changing the term to one less accurate would help that situation as opposed to the potential that it has to lead into MORE heresy.


23 posted on 01/10/2012 1:56:11 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: lastchance; metmom; Cronos; rzman21

the reason the title “Mother of God” is rejected today:

1. the historical orthodox Catholic Faith is not understood
2. the devil hates The Church
3. people reject the divinity of Jesus
4. people hate the fact that Christians have always loved and honored Mary.
5. people fail to realize the title says more about Jesus than Mary

pick one or all, but for me and my household, we will stick with the 2,000 year old Christian Faith as taught by the Church.


24 posted on 01/10/2012 2:54:02 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: metmom

You are right, Mother of God should not have been changed to Mother of Christ.

I may have not explained it well. Mother of God was the accepted title tell Nestorious began teaching his heresy, it was he who insisted on the title Mother of Christ.

Mother of God and Theotokos is very precise and is in complete agreement with orthodox Christology.


25 posted on 01/10/2012 2:58:38 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib

How do those who follow Sola Scriptura and who don’t have a Confession or Article of Faith decide what is or is not heresy?


26 posted on 01/10/2012 3:00:15 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: lastchance

The following is the Common Christological Declaration between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East, formerly referred to colloquially as the “Nestorian Church.”

COMMON CHRISTOLOGICAL DECLARATION
BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST

His Holiness John Paul II, Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Catholic Church, and His Holiness Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, give thanks to God who has prompted them to this new brotherly meeting.

Both of them consider this meeting as a basic step on the way towards the full communion to be restored between their Churches. They can indeed, from now on, proclaim together before the world their common faith in the mystery of the Incarnation.

***

As heirs and guardians of the faith received from the Apostles as formulated by our common Fathers in the Nicene Creed, we confess one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten of the Father from all eternity who, in the fullness of time, came down from heaven and became man for our salvation. The Word of God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul, with which he was indissolubly united from the moment of his conception.

Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting “one and another”, the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration.

Christ therefore is not an “ ordinary man” whom God adopted in order to reside in him and inspire him, as in the righteous ones and the prophets. But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity. The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour”. In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”. We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety.

This is the unique faith that we profess in the mystery of Christ. The controversies of the past led to anathemas, bearing on persons and on formulas. The Lord’s Spirit permits us to understand better today that the divisions brought about in this way were due in large part to misunderstandings.

Whatever our Christological divergences have been, we experience ourselves united today in the confession of the same faith in the Son of God who became man so that we might become children of God by his grace. We wish from now on to witness together to this faith in the One who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, proclaiming it in appropriate ways to our contemporaries, so that the world may believe in the Gospel of salvation.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html


27 posted on 01/10/2012 3:16:08 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

Thanks, It was my understanding that the Oriental Orthodox rejected the Council of Chalcedon. Is this document clarifying that the disagreement was a matter of language used and not of the theology behind that language?

Do the Oriental Orthodox now teach that Christ has one nature? That they do not in fact believe in monophysitism?


28 posted on 01/10/2012 3:43:22 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: lastchance

The Oriental Orthodox say Jesus has One Nature, but what they mean by it amounts to what all Chalcedonian Christians believe.

There have been numerous Christological declarations between Rome, the Eastern Orthodox, and the various Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions to that effect.

Some more militant OOs accuse Chalcedonians of being “Nestorians”, though.


29 posted on 01/10/2012 3:48:14 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

It is my understanding that they believe the humanity and divinity of Jesus are perfectly joined in one nature, The Logos or Incarnate Word. Not that they reject either His humanity or His Divinity.


30 posted on 01/10/2012 4:15:00 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: lastchance

Your assumption about the Oriental Orthodox would be correct. I’ve spent a lot of time among them, especially with the Copts.


31 posted on 01/10/2012 4:20:35 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Cronos; mas cerveza por favor; Iscool; Uri’el-2012
Exactly, metmom. The topic got lost when I encountered this GOSSIP .... So that would make iscool and Uri’el semi-Nestorians? by mas cerveza por favor....it depends, most would say “have no clue, just irrationally hate orthodoxy” by Cronos....
32 posted on 01/10/2012 4:38:04 PM PST by presently no screen name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl

By the Catholic church or the scriptures???


33 posted on 01/10/2012 5:09:13 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: ex-snook
You either believe Jesus was both God and man or you don’t. I believe.

You either believe that God preexisted all humanity, created all people, and was preceded by no other being, or you don't. I believe.

34 posted on 01/10/2012 5:34:54 PM PST by Brass Lamp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Iscool; presently no screen name

Pardon my simplicity here, but if Mary was the Mother of God, wouldn’t that mean that Mary had actually generated a member of the Trinity? And that He was a created being?


35 posted on 01/10/2012 5:37:30 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: smvoice

no.

it means what Christians have always believed, Jesus Christ is God.


36 posted on 01/10/2012 5:41:32 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Brass Lamp

I should add ‘And you either believe that the God of miracles can escape a paradox which would trap a human, or you don’t. I believe.’


37 posted on 01/10/2012 5:42:27 PM PST by Brass Lamp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: one Lord one faith one baptism; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ...
pick one or all, but for me and my household, we will stick with the 2,000 year old Christian Faith as taught by the Church.

Fine. You serve your church. I'll serve the living God.

Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

38 posted on 01/10/2012 6:24:14 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; Iscool; presently no screen name

*Mother of God* says that God had a mother,

*Mother of Christ* says that Christ had a mother.

Sheesh, arguing over a title given to a human being that has no warrant. Mary should be, *Oh yeah. That Jewish girl who had the privilege of carrying the Messiah.* Nobody needs any more titles than that considering that we’re not to be respecters of persons.


39 posted on 01/10/2012 6:44:09 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; Iscool; presently no screen name
Pardon my simplicity here, but if Mary was the Mother of God, wouldn’t that mean that Mary had actually generated a member of the Trinity? And that He was a created being?

It more than implies that Mary generated His divinity.

40 posted on 01/10/2012 6:51:29 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Religion Moderator

Here are the rules as posted (my copy and paste) on the Religion Moderator's profile page.

Ecumenic[al] threads.

Who can post? Anyone

What can be posted? Articles that are reasonably not antagonistic. Reply posts must never be antagonistic.

What will be pulled? Antagonistic reply posts. If the article is inappropriate for an ecumenic discussion, the tag will be changed to open.

Who will be booted? Antagonists

 


41 posted on 01/10/2012 6:59:44 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: metmom
>> Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”<<

It’s interesting to note that the “gods of that amorites” were the same gods of the Babylon which included Baal with the same symbols and images that the CC uses which are the sunburst, the “wagon wheel” design” etc.

42 posted on 01/10/2012 7:10:00 PM PST by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; metmom

She gave flesh to Jesus The Word. And The Word became flesh. And The Word was with God from the beginning - so she didn’t give birth to God. And name Him, Jesus, is who she birth.

Who could take credit for giving LIFE to our born again spirit?


43 posted on 01/10/2012 7:56:03 PM PST by presently no screen name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: metmom

LOL, Christians know you serve the Lord by living the Faith believed by Christians universally for 2,000 years.
Christians know the Church is the Body of Christ on earth.

why do unbelievers always try to seperate Christ from His Body, as if you can have one without the other?


44 posted on 01/10/2012 8:11:36 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; metmom

What post of metmom’s are you referring to as being antagonistic? I tried to follow your post - did someone ask for these rules? Your post isn’t clear enough so we can stay on target. Is it referring to those two deleted posts?

I’d like to see what is considered an antagonistic post - according to RF, not by you.

Thanks.


45 posted on 01/10/2012 8:17:26 PM PST by presently no screen name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: smvoice

Pardon my simplicity here, but if Mary was the Mother of God, wouldn’t that mean that Mary had actually generated a member of the Trinity? And that He was a created being?

>>No. She birthed Jesus’s humanity, which was inseparable from his divinity. He had a human soul that was united indivisibly, without alteration, co-mixture, or division.

The dogma of Mary as Theotokos affirms that she gave birth to God the Son and that he was full God and full Man from the moment of his conception by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Why this is so hard for you to accept baffles me.

I learned this dogma when I was a Lutheran. Every one of the first generation Protestant Reformers believed in this teaching.

John Calvin’s arguments about Mary’s role are indistinguishable from those employed by St. Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus against Nestorius.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom31.ix.viii.html#ix.viii-p22

The Lutheran Book of Concord says:
For how could the man, the son of Mary, in truth be called or be God, or the Son of God the Most High, if His humanity were not personally united with the Son of God, and He thus had realiter, that is, in deed and truth, nothing in common with Him except only the name of God?

12] 7. Hence we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not a mere man and no more, but the true Son of God; therefore she also is rightly called and truly is the mother of God.
http://bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php

And the decree of the Council of Chalcedon, as cited by Evagrius, lib. 2, cap 4, reads thus: “Following, then, the holy fathers, we confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and we all set forth with one voice that the same is perfect in deity and the same perfect in humanity; that the same is truly God and truly man, consisting of a rational soul and a body; that He is consubstantial with the Father as regards the deity, and that the same is consubstantial with us according to the humanity; that He is in all respects like us, excepting sin; that He was begotten before the world out of the Father according to the deity, but that the same person was in the last days born for us and for our salvation of Mary, the virgin and mother of God, according to the humanity; that one and the same Jesus Christ,
http://bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

Martin Luther
11. At last they so exalted the indulgence as to teach that if one had even committed a sin of lust with the Mother of God, it would be forgiven him through the indulgence.
http://bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php

The Reformed Tetrapolitan Confession of 1530 refers to Mary as the “Mother of God”.
http://bit.ly/y78Ge6

And John Calvin reproves a Calvinist Church in England for refusing to call Mary “Mother of God” as “ignorance.” Found on page 346 in the following link.
http://bit.ly/yFVhuc


46 posted on 01/10/2012 8:50:48 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: presently no screen name; CynicalBear; metmom; Salvation

you want antagonistic?

see post #42


47 posted on 01/10/2012 8:51:39 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

Once you throw out the Church and Tradition, it becomes an anything goes free-for-all.

Where does scripture condemn Arianism, Macedonianism, Applinarianism, Semi-Arianism, or pretty much any other Christological or Trinitarian heresy in the book?

If the judgment of scripture alone matters and that of the Church or the Church Fathers is irrelevant, than what authority do you have to condemn the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other group for that matter for how they read the Bible?

It seems to me to come down to a matter of taste otherwise.


48 posted on 01/10/2012 8:56:10 PM PST by rzman21
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: rzman21

“Where does scripture condemn Arianism, Macedonianism, Applinarianism, Semi-Arianism, or pretty much any other Christological or Trinitarian heresy in the book?”

If it isn’t revealed by God, then the majority vote of philosophers won’t prove it.

“If the judgment of scripture alone matters and that of the Church or the Church Fathers is irrelevant, than what authority do you have to condemn the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other group for that matter for how they read the Bible?”

By showing their beliefs conflict with scripture. For example, the Mormons believe there are thousands of Gods, and that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and that God the Father had sex with Mary. Do you suggest we need a church council’s vote to refute that?


49 posted on 01/10/2012 9:04:58 PM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: one Lord one faith one baptism; presently no screen name; CynicalBear
you want antagonistic? see post #42

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Which proves what?

50 posted on 01/10/2012 9:06:38 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-165 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson