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Why Mitt Romneys Mormonism Might Matter
The Catholic Review ^ | Jan. 16, 2011 | Matt Palmer

Posted on 01/16/2012 11:13:52 AM PST by MDJohnPaul

Most Christians across the world believe Christ will come again to judge the living and the dead. Mormons believe that Jesus did come again already… to America.

And that, to me, is what’s interesting about Romney as a candidate.

A Mormon’s account of North American history is fundamentally different from most Christians, but virtually every other faith and anyone else. In Mormon history, North America was the site of an appearance of Jesus Christ, which is no small thing. It differs from historians’ and archeologists’ own research.

Jesus came here to create his church and it was restored by, as Mormons see it, prophet Joseph Smith. America is an exceptional place because of this unique historical event, according to Mormons.

Of course, many people will point out that many Catholics in North America and beyond believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary has appeared in Mexico, Lourdes and Fatima. There are also several other unconfirmed sightings. That’s always worthy of discussion.

Romney isn’t running for Historian in Chief. He’s running to be President of the United States. The land’s history is taught to children in classrooms across the country. Does it matter that Romney, as a Mormon, believes in a history that includes the assertion that Jesus Christ lived here and continued his teachings? That, without question, is different from the mainstream. Does he need to disavow it? No. Should he explain why these historical events are true if he believes them. Possibly.

(Excerpt) Read more at reviewpalmer.wordpress.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: religion; romney; wehatemormons
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To: reaganaut

Really folks!

With all of the ABOVE on the record; they NOW want to be known as CHRISTIANs, too?

What’s wrong with THIS picture??


51 posted on 01/16/2012 3:01:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: azishot
They do teach that a resurrected Christ appeared in Central America and preached the sermon on the mount to the native peoples, who came here from Isreal on a boat.

With a HOLE in the bottom!

52 posted on 01/16/2012 3:03:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: azishot
Then they got in a big fight and completely exterminated one another.


 
MORMON
Chapter 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired. 

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!

20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.

21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.


 
 
Mormon 8:2
And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.


53 posted on 01/16/2012 3:06:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: italianquaker
In normal times maybe but mr obama being a muslim didnt hurt him

But THAT info was NOT broadcast from the rooftops; was it!

55 posted on 01/16/2012 3:09:30 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Salvation

I had a couple of ladies ask me this last week if Romney was a Christian. I answered, “No!” and they looked so stunned.

Then I explained that he was a Mormon and believe in many gods and a prophet that lived in the 1800s. They had no idea that Mormonism was not Christian.

They left convinced that they would not vote for him for President.


56 posted on 01/16/2012 3:11:40 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DeerJerkyDave
What archaeological evidence is there that Jesus even existed in the old world?

The meteor that made THIS has not been found, either...


57 posted on 01/16/2012 3:12:47 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39
The mishies also fail to report that according to mormonism, Jesus had to work his way up to Godhood.

 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


58 posted on 01/16/2012 3:14:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

No McCain was too busy shutting it down and apologizing for mr obamas middle name


59 posted on 01/16/2012 3:15:35 PM PST by italianquaker ( Mr Obama inherited an AAA rating and made it AA, thnx Resident Zero)
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To: alloysteel
The Utes had a grudging admiration of the LDS as a whole, and sometimes spoke of them in a kidding manner (”Those Mormons can pray water into flowing uphill”), but there was no great underlying tension by either side.


 

Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

60 posted on 01/16/2012 3:16:40 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Salvation
I answered, “Mo!” and they looked so stunned.

Well; I can definitely see why!! ;^)

61 posted on 01/16/2012 3:19:16 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Salvation

Two here; two there - pretty soon you’ll have a lot!


62 posted on 01/16/2012 3:20:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Salvation

A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money.


63 posted on 01/16/2012 3:21:23 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

That’s why I reposted it. I told them “NO”!

(Hate those typos)

:))


64 posted on 01/16/2012 3:29:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: svcw
What is your point here?

My point is that you asked for evidence that mormons vote conservatively. And I showed you evidence that the state of Utah, which is heavily mormon, voted for Perot over Clinton when given the chance (and overwhelmingly voted for Bush).

But, as always, you cannot ever allow even the tiniest bit of positive information about mormons past you, so you dodge and change the topic.

65 posted on 01/16/2012 4:15:23 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: alloysteel
Spend some time at this site and get back to me.
66 posted on 01/16/2012 4:16:51 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (When GOP wants to guarantee a loss, they pick from MA: Dukakis, Kerry and now Romney.)
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To: SENTINEL
20 years later we have Reid telling BYU that E.T. Benson "led the church down the wrong path" WITH SALT LAKE'S BLESSING !

A minor correction. This story about Reid's speech gets a lot of play here. The truth is that the "Benson led the church down the wrong path" was not part of the speech. It was a statement made by Reid at a press conference after the speech.

67 posted on 01/16/2012 4:20:46 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: Elsie; italianquaker
In normal times maybe but mr obama being a muslim didnt hurt him

Shows the power of the MSM.

Baraq was either a Muzzie OR a disciple of Rev. Wright's Temple of Hate.

Take your pick.

68 posted on 01/16/2012 4:29:20 PM PST by nascarnation (DEFEAT BARAQ 2012 DEPORT BARAQ 2013)
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To: T. P. Pole

As always..
So the choices came down to between Bush and Clinton and Utah went for Bush. Sorry that actual only means when the choice can down to between Bush and Clinton the State of Utah went for Bush.
When the choices in 2008 where between many candidates in the primary mormons voted for Romney at 94%, as did all other high lds population states.
The bottom line is that lds do not elect conservatives on a mass voting block as evidenced by who they do elect.
My premise still stands that the lds voting block is not as conservative as they are portrayed.
Oh, as a side note, I have a huge section of my lds family in Nevada who are actively involved in politics including holding some offices, every single one of them - democrat, and we know who they elect there.
I’ll give you a positive, Romney always wears a nicely pressed white shirt.


69 posted on 01/16/2012 4:38:02 PM PST by svcw (For the new year: you better toughen up, if you are going to continue to be stupid.)
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To: DeerJerkyDave
What archaeological evidence is there that Jesus even existed in the old world? None. There is some historical evidence in the form of the Christian authored New Testament.

Skeptics have often pointed out that no archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ has been discovered. And they are correct, at least perhaps up until the present. A recent incredible discovery may put to rest that criticism.

A secondary issue must first be considered. Is it reasonable to expect such artifacts or inscriptions? After all, the man Jesus was not a prominent governmental leader. He was essentially an itinerant preacher, with few possessions, and eventually suffered the death of a common outlaw. Would the Romans have recorded His life or death with an inscription or statue? Certainly not.

Actually, Jewish archaeological evidence of the entire period is rather sparse. There are the remains of large and extensive Roman cities, and adequate inscriptions of leaders, including Herod, Pilate and Festus. There are also influential Jews such as Caiaphas, but almost nothing can be found recording the lives of ordinary individuals. And remember that in A.D. 70 Jerusalem was totally destroyed by Titus. What may still exist is buried under the thriving modern city. Certainly the odds are against an artifact's survival.

The scarcity of archaeological artifacts can be contrasted, however, with the wealth of historical evidence for Christ. Soon the apostles had written letters detailing Christ's life and teachings, to be followed by the writings of Paul all widely copied and circulated, within the lifetime of eyewitnesses. The Roman historian Josephus mentioned Christ several times while relating noteworthy civic events, including the execution of one named "James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ/Messiah" referring evidently to Jesus' brother James, leader of the early church and author of the New Testament book bearing his name.

The new artifact is an ossuary, a medium-sized box in which human bones were placed for permanent burial after the flesh had all decayed away. This practice was employed for only a brief period of time from about B.C. 20 to A.D. 70. The box is made of a soft, chalky, limestone, common to the area. The contents have long since vanished.

Most remarkably, an inscription has been etched into the side which reads, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" in the Aramaic script of the time. Careful studies, including scrutiny under a scanning electron microscope show the inscription to be genuine. The patina, or oxidized surface equally covers both box and the interior of the etched letters. The recognized expert on such matters, Dr. Andre Lemaire, concludes: "I am pleased to report that in my judgment it is genuinely ancient and not a fake."

All three names used were common in that era, but seldom was the deceased's brother mentioned, unless that brother was noteworthy. To have all three listed, in correct Biblical relationship certainly supports the possibility of this being the ossuary of the Biblical James.

With or without the ossuary or other archeological evidence, we can still be confident that the events are true. The Christian faith is a reasonable faith, well grounded in the facts of history, and the Bible is an entirely accurate document. On its teachings we can base our lives and eternal destiny.

http://www.icr.org/article/531/

70 posted on 01/16/2012 4:57:34 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Elsie; reaganaut; SENTINEL; greyfoxx39

Many thanks to all of you for your responses. I’ve been reading these threads for quite a while now. Living in AZ I thought I’d heard it all (about mormons, that is). However, these threads have been a real eye-opener. On occasion, one guy and his kids have offered to help clean up our yard. I always wonder if they’re doing it for themselves....that grace after all you can do thing or are they just being neighborly?

Then there are the ones that lied and deceived us back in the 80’s. Their business dealings were questionable...at least with us.

Thanks for the truth. I really mean it. We have to deal with someone like B0 who has a made up past AND someone like mitt who practices a made up religion. We need a break...


71 posted on 01/16/2012 6:07:56 PM PST by azishot
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To: azishot

I always wonder if they’re doing it for themselves....that grace after all you can do thing or are they just being neighborly?

- - - - -
They are doing it to make the LDS church look good and to get you interested in it. Really that is the main reason.

Regarding business dealings with the LDS, my mother says that in all the years she and my stepfather had the jewelry store the only bad checks they got were from a couple of Mormons.


72 posted on 01/16/2012 6:27:44 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
They are doing it to make the LDS church look good and to get you interested in it. Really that is the main reason.

Interested? Not gonna happen.

73 posted on 01/16/2012 6:36:03 PM PST by azishot
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To: Salvation

Good job!


74 posted on 01/16/2012 7:04:15 PM PST by reaganaut (If Romney is a conservative then I’m the frickin Angel Moroni.)
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To: azishot

They don’t know that, or even think they can get you to change your mind.

It is part of their ‘every member a missionary’ pattern and also makes ‘the Church’ look good.

It is how I was introduced to it.


75 posted on 01/16/2012 7:06:16 PM PST by reaganaut (If Romney is a conservative then I’m the frickin Angel Moroni.)
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To: T. P. Pole
The truth is that the "Benson led the church down the wrong path" was not part of the speech. It was a statement made by Reid at a press conference after the speech.

Thank GOD you've cleared THAT up!

76 posted on 01/16/2012 7:31:23 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: azishot
Welcome. I live in AZ too, and have lived in one of the small mormon-dominated towns up North.

Glad to have you with us.

77 posted on 01/16/2012 8:54:52 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (When GOP wants to guarantee a loss, they pick from MA: Dukakis, Kerry and now Romney.)
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To: Honorary Serb

Pray for the unity of Christians!


78 posted on 01/17/2012 3:41:13 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Honorary Serb

It also continues, the Church, in the west, going back to Christ and the Apostles with the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember that Blessed John Paul II said about the Churches of the east and west being like two “lungs”.


79 posted on 01/17/2012 4:55:42 AM PST by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Biggirl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tirUy13Q_L8

This video (the first of a series of three) was produced by an Orthodox brother from the Antiochian Archdiocese. His family is descended from Zacchaeus, whose story is told in the Gospel according to Luke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacchaeus

We Orthodox shall celebrate Zacchaeus Sunday—the first Sunday in pre-Lent—at the end of the month.

The title of the series is: “The Eastern ORTHODOX Church is the ONLY TRUE and Apostolic CHURCH.”

It’s a lot easier to view these videos than to read lots of books, or even one book. (There are some good ones around.) But either way shows the true path to Christian unity.


80 posted on 01/17/2012 6:26:49 AM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: boatbums
Boatbums, thanks for the response. I agree that historical evidence exists for Jesus, but there is no archaeological evidence. I am familiar with the ossuary referenced in your article. The Discovery channel even ran a documentary on it a few years back. Since then it is has been found to be most likely a fake. The owner of the box is currently being charged with 44 counts of forgery, fraud and deception, including for the inscription on the ossuary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ossuary
81 posted on 01/17/2012 6:48:38 PM PST by DeerJerkyDave
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To: DeerJerkyDave
Thanks for your comments. I wasn't sure if the "ossuary" find had been verified or not, the website I linked did not say. As far as there being archaeological evidence, I guess I would need to know what kind of evidence is being asked for. If you mean actual sites described in the New Testament and artifacts attesting to him specifically, I can say that archeology HAS discovered physical places, cities, buildings and sites spoken of in Scripture that can be definitely placed to the time of Christ. Such as:

The evidence for Jesus starts with the place of his birth in Bethlehem. The Church of the Nativity is generally considered a credible historical site, with the traditional cave of Christ’s birth being marked by the ornate Star of Bethlehem. Terraced hills containing shepherds’ flocks still encircle the small city.

On the Sea of Galilee, Christ’s childhood town of Nazareth is still active today. In addition, ancient harbors matching the biblical record have been located in recent drought cycles. In fact, a first century Galilean fishing boat was recently unearthed from the mud and preserved. Although we have no idea who the boat belonged to, it matches the biblical record for the vessels used by Christ’s disciples.

Capernaum, a town often visited by Jesus, is widely excavated and protected. Specific sites of interest include the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit and delivered the sermon on the bread of life, and the house of Peter where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others.

Other archaeological sites involved in Christ’s ministry include Chorazin (where Jesus taught in the synagogue), Kursi (the swine miracle), Tabgha (loaves and fishes), the Mount of Beatitudes (Sermon on the Mount), Caesarea Philippi (Peter's confession), and Jacob's well where Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman.

In Jerusalem, we still see the foundations for the Jewish Temple Mount built by Herod the Great. Other remarkable sites in Jerusalem include the "Southern Steps" where Jesus and his followers entered the Temple, the Pool of Bethesda where Jesus healed a crippled man, and the recently uncovered Pool of Siloam where Jesus healed a blind man.

The evidence for Jesus in the events leading to his crucifixion starts across the Kidron Valley from Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives. There, we can walk through ancient olive trees to the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus prayed before his capture. Then, we can look back across the Kidron Valley to the Golden Gate where Christ entered Jerusalem for his trial, scourging and death.

Elsewhere, we find more evidence for Jesus and the leaders presiding over his trial and crucifixion, including an inscription that mentions the Roman procurator of the time, Pontius Pilate, and the actual bones of the Jewish High Priest of the time, Caiaphas, preserved in an ornate ossuary (bone box). The evidence continues throughout Jerusalem where we can stand in the judgment place of Pontius Pilate called Gabbatha, and then walk the Via Dolorosa where Christ carried his own cross to Calvary. The huge Church of the Holy Sepulchre is considered by most scholars to be a reliable historical site covering the locations of the crucifixion and burial of Christ. Incredibly, a 2,000-year-old heel bone pierced by an iron nail was recently discovered in a Jerusalem graveyard that sheds more light on the practice of crucifixion by the first century Romans.

(http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/evidence-for-jesus.htm

But, let's remember that this occurred over two thousand years ago so we do not know either what other evidence existed at one time nor what additional evidence may still be found. Cities get built upon other cities all over the world. I personally have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus existed on earth and that he still exists, not only in the hearts of Christians but is seated at the right hand of Almighty God right now and he will be coming back soon. If you have a chance, go look at that link, it is really interesting.

82 posted on 01/17/2012 10:37:18 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
I glanced around that website. It is interesting, but again it just demonstrates that some of the sites mentioned in the Bible actually exist. On the other hand archaeology and the Bible don't always agree. If you search around on the Internet you can find plenty of examples of it. For example here is an article from the New York Times titled, "The Bible, as History, Flunks New Archaeological Tests; Hotly Debated Studies Cast Doubt on Many Familiar Stories."

And whether Jesus actually existed there is no archaeological evidence for it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that scientific evidence shouldn't be the primary basis of one's spiritual belief in the Bible and Christ. Jesus says to Thomas that it is better to believe and not see. I'm not saying that scientific evidence is meaningless. It helps as supporting evidence to demonstrate plausibility. But the primary evidence for the truth of the Bible and Jesus needs to be written into the heart of the individual by God through the power of Holy Ghost. Our physical senses and the wisdom of the world are fallible. Truth given to individuals directly from God is infallible.
83 posted on 01/18/2012 11:21:43 AM PST by DeerJerkyDave
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