Skip to comments.Obama Administration Picks a Fight With Catholics
Posted on 01/23/2012 6:52:25 AM PST by marshmallow
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No, actually, you had that fairly nicely defined for you upthread. The definition was offered in standard American English ... I should think that you would have had no trouble understanding it.
Please try again.
Sebelius, who often sat down to dine with Tiller the Killer, is a disgrace to the Catholic Church.
She should have been excommunicated years ago.
Already addressed above. The Vatican offers no statistics for who holds Catholic teaching as true.
Let's keep it as simple as possible and go one step at a time.
Statement: A person's religious beliefs will influence the way a person votes in an election.
It’s an indelible, invisible mark, silly!
Look inside your belly button. ;)
Don’t confuse a conservative activist who wants to win elections with being anti-Catholic.
I think that breaking through this wall of pretense and group think, and chauvinistic pride of conservative Catholics, when they take on any effort to openly discuss or even mention, the voting of 22%, or 4% of our population, or whatever the new claim ends up being as the other posters figure out what a Catholic is, is vital.
Until conservative Catholics know and acknowledge how their fellow Catholics vote, then it is sure hard for the conservative movement to conquer the Catholic voter. We need some help here.
We can’t figure out how to fix it, until people know it is broken, even here many people have been misled to think that the Catholic vote is a conservative, pro-life, anti-gay agenda vote, Republicans won’t learn differently if we don’t tell them the truth.
The fact that no one can answer this simple question honestly, shows why we cannot fix the Catholic vote.
So the Pope, and the Vatican do not count those people as Catholics?
Those non-Catholics are removed when the Pope or the Vatican offers numbers for the Catholic population?
So the number of Catholics claimed for America and the world is vastly, and falsely inflated?
The Pope would tell me up front that those people are not Catholics, that if they are listed as such by the Vatican, we need to update our numbers to keep things honest?
BTW, I assure you that I will not confuse an anti-Catholic for an honest conservative activist who wants to win elections.
So the answer is that the Pope does not accept those people as Catholic?
Your answer can be found in post #41 (IIRC). You seem to be having trouble understanding it. I’m not sure what the problem is; it was written in standard American English.
The fact that you "corrected" A.A. Cunningham's perfectly accurate statement so that it would look worse for Catholics makes me think you are one of the latter.
If I feel like doing a search, I will likely find much better examples of you selectively presenting data in ways that make Catholics look bad.
That does not help when trying to present an accurate account of the Catholic vote, nor does it help to make the Catholic vote become more conservative.
No it can’t, I am asking if the Pope, and the Vatican, counts the Catholics who you guys are personally labeling non-Catholic, as Catholic.
No point discussing matters with folks who cannot (or will not ... I’m not a mind reader) understand the clear answers they have been given.
I’m not interested in “statements” which someone wants to create, I was looking to learn if the Pope and Vatican counts those people as Catholics.
I am dazzled to find this so difficult to get answered, I thought he was a greater authority than individual Catholics and their personal decisions regarding who is counted among the Catholic population.
Most liberal or left-wing Catholics follow the Democrats in favoring abortion. The few who express qualms and concerns don't act on them.
The following is from the Catholic News Agency. You might find this interesting:
“Exit polls are reporting that more weekly churchgoing Catholics voted for John McCain than for President-elect Barack Obama, slightly favoring McCain by 50 percent to 49 percent.
Those who attend Mass on a weekly basis comprised 46 percent of the overall Catholic vote, while 54 percent of Catholics surveyed said they attend less than weekly. Among infrequent Mass goers, Obama was favored 58 to 40 percent.
The fact that practicing Catholics supported McCain over Obama runs contrary to assertions made by Fr. Thomas Reese S.J. and other commentators who used the category of Catholics who attend Mass less than weekly to suggest that the teaching of Catholic bishops was ignored by the faithful.
Overall, Catholics favored Obama 54 to 45 percent, according to an Edison Media Research exit poll conducted for CNA. In 2004 George W. Bush won the Catholic vote over John Kerry, 52 to 47 percent.”
If I had a fairy godmother who could grant me a wish, I would wish that every Catholic child in this nation could enjoy a thoroughly **Catholic **education that was conservative in every way (spiritually and politically) and also gave each student a solid foundation in the founding principles of our nation.
Freepers have told me that large Catholic families, who can not afford private Catholic schooling for all of their children, have joined with other Catholic families and simply hired a teacher. They are running independent Catholic one-room schools. Sounds like a good idea to me.
While, I am not Catholic, I am a graduate of Villanova University. There are issues with the Catholic faith that are not in agreement with mine, ...but....imagine how much stronger our nation would be if all Catholics were stronger in their faith, lived their faith, and voted according to those beliefs.
I know those break downs, but that is true of Jews, Protestants, and everyone else probably, but it is the kind of thing that is hard to use in any practical or meaningful way, the Jewish vote is what we are interested in, not the Orthodox, weekly attending, Jewish vote.
Let’s face it, even the weekly church attending Catholics are not exactly right wingers, the more useful category for political purposes is the category of Catholic, the collective Catholic political positions indicates what we need to know about the Catholic voter, Catholic upbringing, teaching, and culture is shaping the Catholic voter, there is something about the Catholic that we have not examined, and until we do, we cannot have hope of turning them into conservatives.
It is clear that the positive, inaccurate mantras we keep chanting about Catholicism and conservative values, are not accurate, because what they vote for generation after generation, is reality revealed, we need to examine this reality.
Gingrich is uniquely qualified to know what I am saying, and he is a strategical thinker, as a Catholic he may be able to figure out a key to turning them away from liberalism.
He woudl never insult Muslims like this. Never force Islam to do something against their religion.
he woudl go out of his way to make sure that their religion was given every grace that they needed to be comfortable and within their ‘religious’ vews
They don't ask the Pope, they don't ask the person's pastor, they don't ask to see a baptismal certificate, they don't ask to see church contribution records, they don't administer a doctrinal test, etc.
Out of self-identified Catholics in the U.S., what percentage actually attend Mass weekly? (I should point out that this is required to be a Catholic in good standing; it's not a "nice thing to do on a Sunday morning" like it is in a lot of denominations.) The percentage is probably in the low 40's. Now, if the other 55+ % can't be bothered to order their lives according to Catholic teaching enough to show up at Mass on Sunday, why should anyone think that Catholic teaching would have any relevance to their behavior in the voting booth? If they live like pagans, they're probably going to vote like pagans, right?
So it would be a fine thing if the Catholic Church could bring her disobedient sons and daughters back to the fervent practice of their faith, wherein they would learn to vote for candidates that uphold human life and traditional marriage, for starters. (Oh, and then there's that little gem from Pope Pius XI, "No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist".) Until then, Matthew 18:17 applies.
That usurper is not only ill-advised, he must be crazy. How big is the Roman Catholic voting block? I hope big enough that we can beat him despite Holder’s people and the collection of dead people who seem to vote Dem.
This is about the Catholic vote, period, 54% of Catholics voted for Obama, that is the reality except as seen by a handful of people who want to go into trying to excommunicate them because they want better polling data, using the most pure Catholics only for generic American political data.
You are right, they are removing these people from the Catholic church without asking the Pope, because I’m pretty sure that the Pope is still counting them as Catholics.
This idea of wanting to pretend there is no Catholic vote or jumping through hoops of pretense, and even trying to convince people that Catholics are not Catholics is bizarre and infantile.
No one else does all this angry game playing. Do we really have to remove the category of Catholic, and Jewish, and Protestant, and Evangelical, and atheist?
But I keep getting told by the Catholics here on FR that the Catholic church is TOTALLY against socialism/marxism/communism. That I'm making it all up....or stupid....or (fill in the blank).
No, it's been answered honestly. You don't like the answer but that's another issue.
What's your point here? That those counted as "Catholics" by the Church is larger than the number of those who actually sincerely hold its teaching as true? Uh......yeah. The Pope knows this. Everyone knows this. That's the whole point.
That's not because of dishonesty or because of a desire to inflate numbers.It's simply because there are a limited number of metrics for quantifying affiliation with a Church. Identifying those who sincerely hold its beliefs as true is simply not practical.
You'll note that the article is actually about Catholicism. Why might that be do you think? It's because Catholicism is ground zero in the culture war. Those who hold Catholic beliefs as true are in the front line of this fight. The rest will simply be blown away by the winds of persecution. So thanks for your concern about "fixing the Catholic vote" but we're way ahead of the curve.
Tell us again what your particular profession of faith has done to incur the displeasure of the Obama administration? Tell us again what piece of current government legislation is going to affect the way your church or group of believers does business on a daily basis? Tell us again what real pain the government has inflicted or is about to inflict on your church? Tell us again what Obama's plans will cost your church in terms of real estate and money?
Feel free to post any evidence that your profession is even a factor in this war and that you're actually something more than a mere naysayer on matters Catholic.
It sounds like you're agreeing with me, even though you refused to answer a direct question. Progress.
A person's religious beliefs will influence the way a person votes.
So they are Catholics, thanks, I’m glad that is settled, me and the Pope and everyone else all agreed on it but there were a few deniers on this thread.
I don’t think though that I would say that such a large Democrat voting block from a single church, doesn’t need our attempts to influence and persuade them to conservatism though.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.
True or false?
You can do it.
So persuade us. Go ahead. Teaching moment for you.
Put some concrete examples in front of us to show us poor Democrat Catholics how your church has embraced conservatism and is leading the way in the fight against Obama.
That would of course mean telling us your church and answering a direct question, both of which you have so far proved incapable of doing.
I don’t get the attitude.
The goal is for American conservative Catholics to start facing this problem, examine it, and come up with a way to confront it, and bring change, a change that they hopefully desire, or will once they realize what the voting reality is.
This whole conversation is about how Catholic belief leads to liberalism, where even the minority portion of Catholics who vote Republican are really only center right. Of course I see the influence of religious belief. The question is, can American, conservative, Catholics create change.
The deathists in the Obama administration, like in any other, are the enemy of Catholicism, and of God, whether they “pick a fight” or not.
fixed it for you
So help us.
You've most astutely diagnosed the problem. What's the solution?
You professed an interest in showing us the way to true conservatism. No need to be coy, now.
This whole conversation is about how Catholic belief leads to liberalism, where even the minority portion of Catholics who vote Republican are really only center right.
We're all Democrats in disguise. That's why Obama has now picked a monumental fight with us over contraception and abortion. It's because he's Democrat, too. Get it? Democrats attacking Democrats.
Of course I see the influence of religious belief.
It would be hard to dismiss it, wouldn't it?
Now answer the next question.
A person who accepts Catholic teaching on moral issues such as abortion is quite likely to vote differently from one who does not accept this teaching.
True or false?
The question is, can American, conservative, Catholics create change.
ROFL.......oh, you're way too late. Sorry.
Read the headline; Obama Administration Picks a Fight With Catholics.
That's right, Catholics. Read it and weep. The fight is already underway. We're in the trenches. Care to join us or will you continue to stand on the sidelines and whine?
I posed this question above and you ignored it but that won't stop me from asking again. If you know of any other church/denomination (including your own) which is currently about to embarque on such a confrontation with the government, feel free to post it, together with a link.
Given your professed desire to lead us all to conservatism, I imagine you'll be only too happy to provide us with some concrete examples.
BTW, there will be plenty of news on this issue over the coming weeks as the Catholic Church formulates its response to the Obama administration. I'll be posting these articles. You'll be rewarded for your professed interest in this issue with a special ping from me. You'll have a front row seat to our confrontation with the forces of liberalism/secularism/atheism. Won't that be fun?
Generally I would agree about giving the WP hits, and yes they did print an article critical of the Obama, but in some cases I think a hit is justified and sends a message. Who knows, they may get itinto their heads that critical articles are popular.
It's about group think. With both Democrats and Catholics. And they often DO merge. Democrats want big government to take care of everyone. No individual rights, other than those the Democrats in power decide is "acceptable to have". And approve as a "right." And what do the "faithful" of the democrat party do? Fall in line, swallow hook line and sinker whatever the leaders put out. Because if they don't, they may actually be forced to make it on their own, without depending on BIG GOVERNMENT to be their safety net. Same thing with the Catholic Church. No individual thinking, other than those that big Church in power decide is "acceptable to have." And approve as a "right." And all the Big Church "faithful" fall in line, and swallow hook line and singer whatever the leaders (Pope, Magesterium,etc) put out. Because if THEY don't, they may actually be forced to find out what God actually says, not what their Church says God says. They too want that "safety net" (which isn't a safety net at all) of Big Church to group under.
It's the very same situation. One is Big Government. The other is Big Church. Of COURSE they merge together, same mottos of "No worries. We'll take care of you. Just join our group, and follow our lead."
IT's all hunky dory until an issue comes up that threatens the power of the BIG. Who wins out? Big Government or Big Church? And what do people THINK will happen if they give up their individual liberty, rights, and brains to others to run for them? Eventually, SOMEONE has to be top MR. BIG.
"Render unto Caesar" meets "And the gates of Hell". Steel cage death match of epic proportions. Between allies, no less.
The irony of ironies is that your Church is ALSO a political system.
We're discussing the latter.
Yes. I know you are. But it’s the MERGER that has caused the CONFRONTATION. duh
We're the enemy because we're Democrats, too.
My die hard Catholic old lady neighbor is Democrat to the core and is planning on voting for obama even though she doesn't like him because of obamacare. She has friends who are in MA and think Romenycare is the best thing that ever happened to them.
She says she's as pro-life as they come but don't think the government has any business telling people what to do with their bodies.
Actually, it doesn’t really say that, there is clearly more to it than that, look at this thread, even with the conservatives here the goal is to defend, to fight the notion of even knowing the polling data on the Catholic vote, and these are supposed to be the conservative Catholics.
There is a reason why the Catholic is a base voter for the democrat party and always has been, and it involves Catholicism.
I would hope that someday conservative Catholics would have a spark go off, and at least ponder what makes Catholics liberal, and discuss what might need to be changed.
There is no reason for you to get personal and start stalking me, leave me off your ping list.
Your hostility on this thread is enough.
History, facts, the truth means nothing, circle the wagons and when conservatives try to look at a major component of the liberal voting block, shut down discussion or examination, close our arms, look that conservative in the eye and say, nope, never happened, I can’t see generations of voting data, it doesn’t exist, politics doesn’t apply here.
You have just given a perfect description of protestant theology when faced with such plain language as "This is My Body...This is My Blood"
What in the world does that have to do with Obama and the Catholic vote and conservative success in the voting booth and in defeating liberalism?
Bringing to your attention news of the Catholic Church's fight with Obama is "making it personal"?? ROFL...oh dear. You said you were all pumped up and wanted to tell us Catholics how to be conservatives. What happened? Not prepared to address any of the questions I raised above? Have you suddenly lost interest in this issue??........LOL!
As it so happens, you're not the only one with requests. I'd like a couple of things also. I'd like you to drop your ridiculous allegations about Catholicism. I'd like you to acknowledge that Catholics, not just one or two but lots of them, are actually in the forefront of the culture wars. Is that too much to ask? That's not too "hostile" or too "personal" for you is it?
Here's the deal. If you're not prepared to comply and insist on running around spouting your lies, I'll continue to present you with evidence to the contrary in the form of news articles which show you and everyone else exactly what the Church is doing to confront Obama. The article at the top of this thread is Exhibit "A" but there will be more.
It's your choice.
Your hostility on this thread is enough.
ROFL......did I force you in here? You could have left at any time if the .....*cough*......."hostility" was too much.
You haven't. You're still here yapping, so protestations of "hostility" ring a little hollow.
Still waiting for an answer to the issues I raised in #85. You made the statement that "Catholic beliefs lead to liberalism" (post # 82). Personally, I find that statement to be "hostile" so we're even.
“My die hard Catholic old lady neighbor is Democrat to the core and is planning on voting for obama even though she doesn’t like him because of obamacare.” Don’t people see where this is heading? Wait until they figure out that they are the expendable “useful idiots.” Wait until medical care is rationed.
This is terribly disheartening.
Have you talked with her? Shown her what Obamacare really is doing — like supporting abortions?