Posted on 01/30/2012 9:31:42 AM PST by Colofornian
And I 'wonder' if Truth and FACTS are valued by MORMONs.
Next time; I'll remember to put SATAN in the To: box as well; so that it will not be INDIVIDUAL.
‘Any’...
‘Some’...
VAGUE references that avoid the INDIVIDUAL nomenclature.
THIS way they can impune with safety.
Right; RM??
Truth is all I am interested in.
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
HMMM...
How does one KNOW if the 'mormon' is DEVOUT or not?
By how they follow their own SCRIPTURES?
By how they KEEP THEIR VOWS TO GOD?
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
Mormons don’t care about the truth...the people who need the truth are the millions they seduce. They think lies are a service to God of they trick even one of you into accepting the poison that they drink...taught this, it’s not a sin to lie if the truth lets a convert go. Expect them to respomd to truth and reason about their cult much as an alcoholic would respond to truth and reason about cheap liquor. Tell the truth, inform the innocent, give the people who prefer poison the right of their choices without their seducing the innocent into sharing their fate. Ex-lds.
Funny picture and funny “creepiness” to it.
If you’re proposing that the Mormons ‘corrected’ FOUR THOUSAND ERRORS that were originally put to pen by Joseph Smith then that’s quite a comment all on its own, don’t you think?
Considering THE following?
I would say so!!
Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.
|
....... The Ministry of Truth, Winston's place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below. The Ministry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further. The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels - with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child's spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary. Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston's job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. When his day's work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify. In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston's arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building. As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconscious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames. What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs. There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed. And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who co-ordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence. |
x
Problem is they never saw the plates - their ‘story’ relates to visions. Why have ‘visions’ Norm, if there were real plates in existence. Testimony also exists that Smith never even used the plates anyway, that the ‘translation’ came from his peep stone, with the ‘plates’ secured elsewhere. The “witnesses” didn't see the “plates” at the same time either. Simple fact is that these same impeccable ‘witnesses’ were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself.
Let us also not forget these same witnesses claimed other mormon splinter “prophets” were the true prophets as well as testifying to a greater revelation from them than smith.
Their testimony in the front of the bom is nothing different that the ‘testimonies’ commonly placed on the various snake oil cures of the same period.
The three witnesses said they saw the plates, saw the angel, and heard the voice of God commanding them to bear witness. People use the word ‘vision’ in relation to this experience to try and explain it away as being invalid.
Obviously something supernatural was taking place, something out of the ordinary. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Did Peter, James and John really see Elijah and Moses visit Jesus in the Mount of Transfiguration — or is that experience invalid because it was a ‘vision’.
As you read the testimonies of David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, they are as certain of the reality of what they experienced as were Peter, James and John.
Sorry to break it to you Norm, 'vision' was in the words used. For example Martin Harris stated "I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. . . . . In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71)
Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were third cousins and they shared the practice of folk occultism with the rest of their family consisting of peep stones and divining rods. Young spoke in regards to Cowdrey saying "One of the Quorum of the Twelve — a young man full of faith and good works, prayed and the vision of his mind was opened, and the angel of God came and laid the plates before him, and he saw and handled them, and saw the angel." (Journal of Discourses 1860, 7:164)
"“What of the prophet's story about gold plates, and what about his witnesses? Given Brodie's assumptions, was there not deception here, if not collusion? Brodie maintains that the Prophet exercised some mysterious influence upon the witnesses which caused them to see the plates, thus making Joseph Smith once more the perpetrator of a religious fraud. The evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only, for Stephen Burnett in a letter written in 1838, a few weeks after the event, described Martin Harris' testimony to this effect: ‘When I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David . . . " (Mormon historian Marvin S. Hill, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought). Hill also stated- "Burnett reported Harris saying that he had ‘hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." (ibid).
The record is clear - even to mormon historians, they had 'visions' Norm - mormon historian words, not mine. IF the plates were tangible - there would be no need of 'visionary' verbage - let alone "seeing through a mountain".
Obviously something supernatural was taking place, something out of the ordinary. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Just for grins and giggles, lets say something "supernatural" happened - what proof is that it was from "god" Norm - it easily could have been a satanic counterfit. Then again, it proves they had a VISION and didn't actually see physical, tangible plates.
Did Peter, James and John really see Elijah and Moses visit Jesus in the Mount of Transfiguration — or is that experience invalid because it was a ‘vision’.
Did Peter, James or John produce a contradictory account(s) of the event as we have in the bom three witnesses? Were Peter, James and John practicioners of occultic folk magic? People don't need to have a vision or see through a 'spiritual eye' to look at physical objects Norm.
As you read the testimonies of David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, they are as certain of the reality of what they experienced as were Peter, James and John.
Sorry Norm, once again, they repeatedly referred in other testimony as it not being a physical reality, but a visionary experience. Really Norm, why would Smith take them into the deep woods to have an reputed angel show them the plates, when those very same plates were buried in his barn for safe keeping? Here are the words they are recorded as using Norm -
'While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates'
'I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state'
'he only saw the plates with a spiritual eye'
'a visionary experience'
never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination'
'as shown in the vision'
"I did not see them as I do that pencil case, yet I saw them with the eyes of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me - though at the time, they were covered with a cloth"
What kind of 'reality' is that Norm. No, the fundamental basis - real, physical plates alledgedly buried in a barn versus the experience of Peter, James and John are not compatable - nor is the 'testimony' of the bom witnesses credible. Since their testimony has no basis in physical fact, it proves nothing.
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