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Frenchman, 71, Takes Catholic Church to Court After it Refuses to Nullify His Baptism
The Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 1/30/12

Posted on 01/31/2012 6:49:05 AM PST by marshmallow

An elderly French man is fighting to make a formal break with the Catholic Church, in a case that could have far-reaching effects.

Rene LeBouvier, 71, has taken the church to court over its refusal to let him nullify his baptism after losing his faith in the religion.

Though he was raised in a community where Catholicism dominated every walk of life, Rene changed his views in the 1970s after spending time with 'free thinkers'.

As he didn't believe in God anymore, the pensioner thought it would be more honest to leave the church and wrote to his diocese and asked to be un-baptised in 2000.

Ten years later, LeBouvier wanted to go further.

Paedophile scandals and the pope preaching against condoms in AIDS-racked Africa, helped strengthen LeBouvier's opposition to the religion.

He called the pope's position on Africa "criminal."

Again, he asked the church to strike him from baptism records, but when the priest told him it wasn't possible, he took the church to court.

French law states that citizens have the right to leave organisations if they wish and, last October, a judge in Normandy ruled in his favour.

However, the diocese has since appealed and the case is pending.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Theology
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1 posted on 01/31/2012 6:49:08 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

does that even exist?

...

I’d say he has already nullified it himself through his beliefs and actions. It’s not something the church can do.


2 posted on 01/31/2012 6:51:30 AM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: marshmallow
If he truly did not believe in God, the baptism would not matter to him.
3 posted on 01/31/2012 6:52:42 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

I agree. His baptism was probably nullified along time ago(if you are arminian) or was never valid to begin with(if you’re calvanist) :-)


4 posted on 01/31/2012 6:54:48 AM PST by MachIV
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To: marshmallow

Don’t worry, Rene. At age 71, you will soon find that God has nullified your membership in the Holy Christian Church, the one visible only to God. That is the church membership that counts.


5 posted on 01/31/2012 6:55:26 AM PST by txrefugee
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To: marshmallow

Baptism is permanent. Sin CAN be eliminated...and/or it CAN be MORTAL.


6 posted on 01/31/2012 6:57:09 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: marshmallow

If he doesn’t believe in God why would he need to uncheck this box? Sounds more like he has a vendetta.


7 posted on 01/31/2012 6:59:31 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marshmallow

A ‘free thinker’ that wants his Baptism nullified...lol. You can’t make this stuff up.


8 posted on 01/31/2012 7:00:15 AM PST by ILS21R (Never give up.)
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To: marshmallow

If you want to leave, leave ... but you have no right to erase history.


9 posted on 01/31/2012 7:00:28 AM PST by NonValueAdded (Limbaugh: Tim Tebow miracle: "He had atheists praying to God that he would lose.")
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To: marshmallow

This is hilarious. The Church can not nullify Baptism. When its done, it’s done. She may ex-communicate. But there is no such thing as nullifying baptism. Moreover, Baptism is not even a Catholic-only doctrine. The Church will accept the baptisms of other denominations, as long as they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord. There’s no way to undo it.


10 posted on 01/31/2012 7:04:36 AM PST by ichabod1 (Mr. Gingrich)
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To: marshmallow
Monsieur is very confused.

I suppose as a freethinker, he doesn't acknowledge the existence of anything he can't see -- i.e. spiritual matters.

But baptism is not a legal matter that can be undone by the courts, as he seeks to do. It is a spiritual mark, with a permanent effect on the soul. It is indelible, as indelible as priestly ordination.

And expunging the record of it is counterproductive. Suppose at age 75 or 80 he changes his mind -- he cannot be rebaptized because it is indelible and permanent, and then there would be no record of it, so . . . .

All he is doing is trying to tamper with the recordkeeping.

11 posted on 01/31/2012 7:15:54 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: MrEdd
If he truly did not believe in God, the baptism would not matter to him.

exactly. Doesn't his complaint sort of validate what he's trying to nullify? It's like, "God, I know you dont exist!"

12 posted on 01/31/2012 7:17:44 AM PST by the invisib1e hand (religion + guns = liberty.)
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To: MrEdd

Yeah, he’s probably mad at God because it isn’t a Utopian world. Don’t we all wish we could undo some things but reality is reality and if it happened who but God can take it back? He can renounce it, wish it didn’t happen, call his parents and the church all kinds of names but what’s done is done.


13 posted on 01/31/2012 7:25:09 AM PST by tiki
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To: marshmallow
Does France have a church tax like Germany? From what I understand, if you are Catholic or Lutheran you have a hard time getting out of the German church tax.
14 posted on 01/31/2012 7:29:15 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Herman Cain: possibly the escapee most dangerous to the Democrats since Frederick Douglass.)
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To: MrEdd
If he truly did not believe in God, the baptism would not matter to him.

Precisely. He is mad at God.

I once let a girl do my astrology horoscope, but I don't spend my days trying to go back in time 30 years and have it undone.

15 posted on 01/31/2012 7:33:13 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: marshmallow

If he does not want to be listed as a baptized Catholic why should the diocese insist on keeping his name on the records?


16 posted on 01/31/2012 7:34:04 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: marshmallow

This guy is stupid. You can divorce your spouse, but you cannot erase the fact that you “married” officially on a given date. One can leave a church/denomination but the same cannot erase the fact that you were baptized on a given date in the past.

Annullments to a marraige can be granted within a short period of time and thus “undue” a marriage, but even here, one was still married on a given date as a historical fact. You can’t just “erase” the fact that it occured.


17 posted on 01/31/2012 7:36:44 AM PST by Nevadan
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To: count-your-change

The baptism happened. If he doesn’t want to be Christian anymore, fine. But that doesn’t mean the baptism didn’t happen.


18 posted on 01/31/2012 7:43:42 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: count-your-change
why should the diocese insist on keeping his name on the records?

It is an historical record. Should also the government be forced to delete a record of birth? Should a hotel be forced to delete names from their register as if the persons never stayed there?

This is Orwellian.

19 posted on 01/31/2012 7:49:07 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

That is true but not at all relevant to what I asked so I’ll say again,

Why should the diocese insist? Even when they lost at court?


20 posted on 01/31/2012 7:49:46 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ichabod1

I guess baptism leaving an “indelible mark” on your soul means nothing to him.


21 posted on 01/31/2012 7:50:16 AM PST by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: count-your-change

Because the diocese shouldn’t have to play let’s pretend games. Unless they’re more fun let’s pretend games at least


22 posted on 01/31/2012 7:54:05 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: marshmallow

I can do it from here. Uh, you’re unbaptized. There you go Frenchie.


23 posted on 01/31/2012 7:54:13 AM PST by lp boonie (Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment)
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To: count-your-change

I guess that particular denomination looks at membership the same way the Bloods and Crips do.

Once you’re a member, you’re ALWAYS a member. No outs.


24 posted on 01/31/2012 7:54:16 AM PST by Responsibility2nd (Newt or else. What part of "Join or Die" don't you understand?)
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To: GeronL

Makes you wonder, no? Insisting on humans nullifying something you’ve stated by your actions is a nullity. Sort of, “Hey, God! I don’t believe in You! Now let me go!”.

Hunh?


25 posted on 01/31/2012 7:57:28 AM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

The man is asking that he no longer be on record as a baptized Catholic (as is his right for his own reasons) so what’s with the “pretend” comment?

He won at court, he has a right to sever any connections with a particular group and the diocese is insisting no.

Seems pretty straight forward, now doesn’t it?


26 posted on 01/31/2012 8:02:29 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: marshmallow

Europe is going broke, but the French Courts apparently have the time to entertain this nitwit. The extent to which the legal profession will debase itself is amazing. In a sane world the judge would have told him: “go away, the adults have serious matters to consider.”


27 posted on 01/31/2012 8:05:11 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: count-your-change

No one has said he sever ties to any group here.


28 posted on 01/31/2012 8:05:36 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

Well no one said “he sever ties to any group here” because it makes no grammatical sense. However, it’s more germane to add that no one said that the man can’t sever ties with whatever group he wants.


29 posted on 01/31/2012 8:09:17 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: ichabod1
The Church will accept the baptisms of other denominations, as long as they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord.

I thought it had to be a Trinitarian baptism. Modalists need not apply.

30 posted on 01/31/2012 8:13:07 AM PST by Gamecock (I am so thankful for [the] active obedience of Christ. No hope without it. JGM)
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To: MrEdd
If he truly did not believe in God, the baptism would not matter to him.

Well put.
It really demonstrates how angry and hurt he was and is. There's no remedy for him in this world. He's made his choice. Only God can help and mend him.

31 posted on 01/31/2012 8:17:08 AM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Jeff Chandler
Isn't the real conflict over whether he will be carried on the records as a member of the Catholic church or not?

Isn't that why Catholics don't want Mormons claiming dead Catholics have been baptized into the Mormon church?

32 posted on 01/31/2012 8:24:31 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Being baptized a Christian doesn’t make you a lifelong anything.


33 posted on 01/31/2012 8:28:57 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Responsibility2nd

Beginning to sound that way.


34 posted on 01/31/2012 8:31:24 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: marshmallow

This man can be, and I am sure already has been, removed from the parishioner roll. To insist that he be removed from the baptismal record is to foolishly attempt to rewrite history through court order. He was baptized, and no judge can change that without a time machine.


35 posted on 01/31/2012 8:31:42 AM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: marshmallow

I hope all the people who say they were baptized and formerly Catholics read this thread.

They are still Catholics — you don’t undo a baptism by your own will.

It is a church matter, not a civil matter, since a person is baptism “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

That mark of a Catholic baptism is always with someone and they will have to account for their doings throughout life at the moment of their death.


36 posted on 01/31/2012 8:37:50 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ichabod1

Not all baptisms in my understanding.


37 posted on 01/31/2012 8:43:43 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: count-your-change
Isn't the real conflict over whether he will be carried on the records as a member of the Catholic church or not?

No, he is asking to have his Baptism nullified. There is no process to accomplish this in the Church. A Baptism is an act—once a Baptism is performed, it cannot be unperformed. It is an historic fact.

It can be renounced by an individual, and there was until recently a process to do that, Formal act of defection from the Catholic Church.

I don't see how a governmental agency can require a religious organization to create a new judicial process, let alone falsify a record.

38 posted on 01/31/2012 8:45:07 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

Then why not strike the fellow’s name? Put an X beside it and a note...what’s the big deal if he doesn’t want to be listed as a baptized Catholic anymore?

I wonder if France needs more atheist Catholics or what the reason is that his name can’t be removed or at least noted as no longer Catholic.


39 posted on 01/31/2012 8:49:12 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
..what’s the big deal if he doesn’t want to be listed as a baptized Catholic anymore?

Because it would be a lie.

Is that clear enough?

"Want" is irrelevant to the discussion.

On a certain day and at a certain hour, water was poured over him and certain words were said.

The Church record attests to that fact. Nothing will ever change that fact.

I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in this issue. If the record of a baptism could be struck from the record, then why not a marriage? That would be nice wouldn't it?

"Your Honor, I want the Church to formally erase the record of my marriage!"

Uh-huh..........like that's going to happen.

40 posted on 01/31/2012 9:01:20 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: jagusafr

some sort of mental disorder probably, happens to most leftists


41 posted on 01/31/2012 9:05:01 AM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: count-your-change
what’s the big deal if he doesn’t want to be listed as a baptized Catholic anymore?

Because he will always be Baptized. It cannot be undone. He can renounce his Church affiliation, be non-practicing, excommunicated, whatever, but he was Baptized and the only way to undo that is to travel back in time.

42 posted on 01/31/2012 9:11:05 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati)
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To: Jeff Chandler
I think that is exactly the conflict. To nullify an act doe not mean to reverse it as a historical event, laws are passed and then nullified but no one says the law was Un-passed or never passed as an event in history.

Striking the man's name would be no more falsifying records than a marriage annulment.

“I don't see how a governmental agency can require a religious organization to create a new judicial process, let alone falsify a record.”

There is no suggestion that either was asked of the diocese.

43 posted on 01/31/2012 9:13:35 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

There are probably a lot of people who wish to have their votes for Obama changed but it can’t happen. I guess they could always have a big red X tattoo’d on their forehead so as to warn others how stupid they were though.

AT least it would be of some use to society that way


44 posted on 01/31/2012 9:16:16 AM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: count-your-change

One more time.

There is no process to nullify a Baptism.

By its very nature, a Baptism cannot be nullified. It is an un-nullifiable event.

Baptism is forever. That is why the Church recognizes valid baptisms from other Christian denominations, and does not re-baptize converts who have been validly baptized.

The Church will not, can not change Her beliefs concerning the eternal nature of Baptism to accommodate an individual or comply with a governmental mandate.

You wanna quit, quit. But you will always have been baptized and the Church does not posses the authority to change that.


45 posted on 01/31/2012 9:30:08 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati)
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To: marshmallow
I think you're attempting to introduce the idea that someone might have to go through records with some WhiteOut or a gum eraser and physically destroy or remove what was written.

Instead of,
“Your Honor, I want the Church to formally erase the record of my marriage!”

It more appears to be,
“Your Honor, I want the Church to formally stop listing me as a married Catholic, particularly since I'm neither!”

46 posted on 01/31/2012 9:33:46 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ichabod1
The Church will accept the baptisms of other denominations, as long as they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Incorrect. Proper form and matter are required for the baptism to be valid.

47 posted on 01/31/2012 9:33:50 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Quit? Not possible, at least in the Salina diocese:

“Once a Catholic always a Catholic
Written by Fr. Randall Weber
Thursday, 25 June 2009 13:32
“Once a Catholic always a Catholic” is a common saying among Catholics. Is it true that once a person is baptized into the Catholic Church or received into it, he or she is always a Catholic? Speaking from a strictly canonical
point of view, the answer is yes. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, anyone who has ever been a legitimate member of the Catholic Church can never truly leave. Oh, he or she can become a non-practicing Catholic, a “bad” Catholic, or even an excommunicated Catholic, but never a non-Catholic or an ex-Catholic.” (see salinadiocese.org/vicar for the entire comment)

Going to the heart of matter, it's all about surrendering a claim on the individual. One can cease being a Christian but never cease being a Catholic.

48 posted on 01/31/2012 10:08:12 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham; Salvation

That’t true, you’re both right. I was speaking very generally to avoid going into details (which I would have had to look up.) When I was Confirmed into the Roman Catholic Church, my Episcopal Baptism was accepted as valid. Course, I was able to get the documentation from the church where it took place.


49 posted on 01/31/2012 10:29:16 AM PST by ichabod1 (Mr. Gingrich)
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To: count-your-change
what the reason is that his name can’t be removed or at least noted as no longer Catholic.

In America, if he votes Democrat, then many here will swear up and down that he is no longer a Catholic.

Evidently, to some Catholics, voting against the party they voted for, removes you from the rolls, maybe this guy should move to the United States, and vote for Obama.

50 posted on 01/31/2012 10:47:02 AM PST by ansel12 (Romney is unquestionably the weakest party front-runner in contemporary political history.)
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