Skip to comments.The Evangelical Covenant Order Of Presbyterians?
Posted on 02/02/2012 6:57:50 PM PST by Vinylly
I had just learned that our church in Seattle is leaving the Presbyterian Churches USA into a new organizing body called The Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians. Two of the largest churches in the Seattle area, also Presbyterians are sponsers this effort. I haven't been able to figure out from their website if The Fellowship of Presbyterians is the same organization. (www.fellowship-pres.org ) It is also rumored that this exudus from Presbyterian Churches USA was a rebellion aganinst their recent vote to allow gays to become ministers. But there is nothing in their website that mentions this. Does anyone have any outside information other then their own website about The Fellowship of Presbyterians or The Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians ?
Looks like they are the same.
This constant fissioning is not Christ's will for His Church. It is a terminal flaw in what is commonly called "protestantism" - one "protest" after another, all leading to the same result.
Give it up and come home.
So you’re suggesting we leave a Bible believing, Christ centered church to join the cult of Catholics? Where we chase after idolatry praying to Mary and other dead Christians, and spend our lives jumping through sacramental hoops for “the church”? Nah.
Any feel for how many congregations and people are making the jump?
So youre suggesting we leave a Bible believing, Christ centered church to join the cult of Catholics?Or you can stay with the cult you are in that ordains women, gays and celebrates queer marriage. As for that "Bible Believing" stuff, really?
Where we chase after idolatry praying to Mary and other dead Christians, ...
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, he will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen
Which church are you at?
The "Traditions" of the catholic church is not Christ's will
A wise counselor, the Holy Spirit, has been sent to guide you in all truth, correct?
Now, either that wise counselor is a fool and a liar, to guide however many presbyterian "churches" there are in all truth, with said truths being mutually incompatible, OR said counselor does not exist, OR your understanding (yes, you are testifying as to YOUR understanding, with no authority to distinguish YOURS from any of the thousands of other protestant "authorities" who differ with you and each other) - or YOUR understanding is defective.
Of these possibilities, you must see that the most probable is that it is not Christ or the Holy Spirit who are in error, but you yourself.
We Prysbyterians recite and believe in the Apostles Creed just as the Catholics do and have always been told the Catholic Church is the ‘Mother Church’. Our church is but one block away from St. James Cathedral. We work together in aiding the hungry and the homeless. There is no amnosity between us. ALL should work together as one body as Satan is strong and has invaded our churches. United, working together we will prevail. That is the word of God and is what Paul taught his congregations. Our form of worship may be different but we are of one faith.
Im not charismatic nor do I practice my faith in a liberal church....
Hail Mary full of grace...
pray for us sinners...
I believe in one God, 1
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible. 2
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, 3
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father; 4
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit
was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, 5
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. 6
He ascended into heaven and is seated
at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord,
the giver of life, who proceeds
from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
And one, holy, catholic
and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism 7
for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the 8 dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Here’s a guy who asks specifically about a particular evangelical Presbyterian group—not referring to Roman Catholicism at all, and you have to make it a Roman v. Protestant p*ssing match, complete with derisive cartoons?
Give me a break!
You’ll win no converts that way...
Since this is an "open" thread, any sort of derisive, nasty, vicious, vile, sewer behaviour is completely acceptable ... even laudatory ... so long as it carefully disguises itself as not being "personal".
That said ...
I actually agree with your objection ... likewise, I would hope that you might agree that when some Catholic brings up a topic regarding a particular Catholic group, Protestants trying to turn the thread into a Protestant vs Catholic foodfight complete with derisive cartoons is also objectionable.
I grew up in a large Presbyterian church which left the PCUSA in the ‘80s, joining the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) denomination. I also have a Masters of Theology degree from a very well respected evangelical Presbyterian seminary.
Looking at the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO) website above it appears ECO is very similar in that it is primarily made up of ex-PCUSA Churches. The EPC though, allows congregational freedom regarding women’s ordination, while the ECO “is fully committed to Gods equal call on women and men in ministry and leadership” (meaning, you must accept women pastors and elders or leave.....).
Hence this is a new Presbyterian denomination which is basically evangelical, and does not accept homosexual ordination, but....it is feminist.
I find that a hard row to hoe—to be a Bible believing Christian AND a feminist, as the New Testament clearly sets up men in Church leadership positions (12 male disciples for starters) plus the Apostle Paul said some pretty stern things prohibiting women to be in Church leadership over men.
Here’s short article from Ligonier Ministries (R.C.Sproul’s group), a solid evangelical Presbyterian group:
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
- 1 Timothy 2:11-12
Although it is hard to know everything the false teachers in Ephesus promoted, most commentators believe these instructors had many women followers (2 Tim. 3:6), including young widows who embraced the heretics asceticism, which included such things as avoiding certain foods and shunning remarriage (1 Tim. 4:15; 5:1115). Pauls words about jewelry (2:910) also indicate the presence of wealthy women who likely allowed churches to meet in their homes, the normal way the earliest Christians gathered for fellowship and teaching. These rich ladies probably let the errant elders infiltrate worship, and in turn they likely allowed the women to teach men.
Our look at 1 Timothy 2:1112 cannot ignore this setting, but we must not assume that the passages cultural context means that its teaching is invalid today. Many people disagree, saying that Paul forbade women to hold authority over men in the church only temporarily and that women may now serve as elders. To answer this position we must look at what else the Bible says on the subject. Paul also addresses women in public worship in 1 Corinthians 14:33b35, calling for their silence in a different context. This application of a similar principle in separate settings (Ephesus and Corinth) points to its universality. The universality of 1 Timothy 2:1112 is also grounded in principles inherent in creation, which we will investigate further tomorrow. None of these principles, however, supports male superiority, for the Bible knows no such thing.
What Paul says in todays passage is that women are barred from preaching and teaching in worship, not every kind of speaking. Paul assumes women will prophesy in Corinth (1 Cor. 11:45) and throughout Scripture women engage in speech acts in the worship service (like singing, see Ex. 15:2021; Col. 3:16). First Timothy 2:1112, then, is calling women to be attentive and not interruptive, prohibiting their ordination to the office of elder. Dr. R.C. Sproul writes, Paul is saying that women can be involved in all kinds of
ministry in the church but
the role of juridical authority or of governing authority is not to be held by women (Now Thats a Good Question, p. 346).
Dr. John MacArthur says, Paul is forbidding women from filling the office and role of the pastor or teacher. He is not prohibiting them from teaching in other appropriate conditions and circumstances (The MacArthur Bible Commentary, p. 1,783). All of us have been blessed by mothers, women missionaries and Sunday school teachers, and other females who have taught us the Word without being elders. Let us thank God for the many godly women in our lives.
(from: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/female-authority/ )
I agree with this, and the concept of sex-roles as a part of our gifting from God. Men and women are equally valuable...and neither is superior to the other, however, in the Church at least the Bible is clear that Christ-like male leadership is God’s way.
Looking at the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO) website above it appears ECO is very similar in that it is primarily made up of ex-PCUSA Churches. The EPC though, allows congregational freedom regarding womens ordination, while the ECO is fully committed to Gods equal call on women and men in ministry and leadership (meaning, you must accept women pastors and elders or leave.....).
Hence this is a new Presbyterian denomination which is basically evangelical, and does not accept homosexual ordination, but....it is feminist.
The PCUSA has been shedding people and groups for a while, as they successively reach different points beyond which they refuse to go. Anybody who's still in, has lived with female pastrixes for a long time. As I pointed out in the prior thread about the ECoP, anybody still there probably isn't very conservative.
Where will it end?
BTW, if you look at the ECOP website, it's easier to find employee insurance rates than what they believe.
To my way of thinking the EPC already has a solution for evangelical feminists who want female ordination: Just find a congregation which agrees, and you’re good. It’s a freedom-based solution, in that each congregation can follow its conscience on the issue of female leadership in the Church.
However that’s not good enough for the feminists....they want a denominational organization which enforces feminism onto their congregations...(while not (yet) enforcing homosexuality (give that another 20 years or so)). Hence the ECO.
Actually I have a relative who’s a female PCUSA pastrix. She’s conservative about everything else except this issue. She looked into the EPC but doesn’t like it....as something like 95% of EPC churches have exclusively male clergy. Since she considers it a justice/fairness issue (don’t they all!) she cannot abide by letting congregations decide for themselves. While she hates it...she’s still staying PCUSA.
I believe it is a fish or cut bait issue. One either obeys the Bible on the issue, and you do not ordain females....or you just have to ignore the verses I posted above in the Ligonier quotation, opening yourself to other liberal go-arounds (like the homosexual-ordination issue).
Every single one of the Mainlines which started ordaining women—had the homosexuals pounding on the door within 10 years.
The reverence and authority we give the holy Scriptures really does matter—whether we label ourselves “evangelical” or not.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
So Luther worshiped Mary as God? What evidence do you have of that?