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Last Temptation of Castro: Get Religion [To be Received Back into Church During Papal Visit]
Cranmer ^ | 2/4/12

Posted on 02/05/2012 2:58:27 PM PST by marshmallow

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To: metmom
If that were the case, then every murder, every rape, every lie, would also be happening concurrently outside of time, to be experienced in the same way as Christ’s dying.

We view it this way but God knows it all in one NOW

Besides, it’s not His DYING that saves us and sets us free, it’s His death and resurrection. So if Jesus is forever dying, then He hasn’t risen and can’t save because death hasn’t been defeated.

This is all one NOW with GOD -The Death and Resurrection and Heaven,etc.. is all one eternal NOW with God.

I gave it the "ole college try" to help you understand,for some reason you can't seem to grasp what outside of time and eternal is

I wish you a Blessed evening!

701 posted on 02/14/2012 5:17:46 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi

It’s impossible to fully know it of course, but not that difficult to understand it in a much more limited way as you have ably described. One analogy I like is of time unrolling like a jelly roll while God sees the whole jelly roll at once.

I’ve heard contemplatives say the closest a mere human can come to a similar experience is to live in the ever-present now, with consciousness fully in the present moment, then the next and the next...

thanks for your posts...


702 posted on 02/14/2012 6:02:32 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; metmom

Thanks, dear friend.

How does someone explain that Elijah was saved and sent to heaven and listed in Scripture as coming before the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ in our concept of time while knowing that Christ’s Sacrifice is what saves us?

The only answer is that God is outside of time and Christ is God


703 posted on 02/14/2012 7:19:37 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi

And, as you point out, inside time would also - by definition - mean finite.

As theology goes, this is elementary...


704 posted on 02/14/2012 9:39:08 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: stfassisi
How does someone explain that Elijah was saved and sent to heaven and listed in Scripture as coming before the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ in our concept of time while knowing that Christ’s Sacrifice is what saves us? The only answer is that God is outside of time and Christ is God

Then by that reasoning, God is always dying and always dead.

705 posted on 02/15/2012 6:43:52 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Within that one eternal NOW is pre ,pre existing and finished events and does not follow that the pre ,preexisting is continued.

Try thinking of it as watching a movie,everything that occurs is inside the movie is known after you have watched the movie- only God’s movie is never ending


706 posted on 02/15/2012 7:21:48 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: metmom

Dear Sister,

Here is a few things I dug up for you from Saint Thomas Aquinas that might help you....

Our intellect, in understanding anything, reaches out to infinity; a sign whereof is this, that, given any finite quantity, our intellect can think of something greater. But this direction of our intellect to the infinite would be in vain, if there were not something intelligible that is infinite. There must therefore be some infinite intelligible reality, which is necessarily the greatest of realities; and this we call God.

An effect cannot reach beyond its cause: now our understanding cannot come but of God, who is the First Cause. If then our understanding can conceive something greater than any finite being, the conclusion remains that God is not finite

Every agent shows greater power in action, the further from actuality is the potentiality which it reduces to actuality, as there is need of greater power to warm water than to warm air. But that which is not at all, is infinitely distant from actuality, and is not in any way in potentiality: therefore if the world was made a fact from being previously no fact at all, the power of the Maker must be infinite. This argument avails to prove the infinity of the divine power even to the mind of those who assume the eternity of the world. For they acknowledge God to be the cause of the substantial being of the world, although they think that substance to have been from eternity, saying that the eternal God is the cause of an ever-existing world in the same way that a foot would be the cause of an everlasting foot-print, if it had been from eternity stamped on the dust. Still, even accepting the position thus defined, it follows that the power of God is infinite. For whether He produced things in time, according to us, or from eternity, according to them, there can be nothing in the world of reality that He has not produced, seeing that He is the universal principle of being; and thus He has brought things to be, without presupposition of any matter or potentiality. Now the measure of active power must be taken according to the measure of potentiality or passivity; for the greater the pre-existing or preconceived passivity, the greater the active power required to reduce it to complete actuality. The conclusion remains that, as finite power in producing an effect is conditioned on the potentiality of matter, the power of God, not being conditioned on any potentiality, is not finite, but infinite, and so is His essence infinite. To this truth Holy Scripture bears witness: Great is the Lord and exceedingly to he praised, and of his greatness there is no end (Ps. cxliv, 3).

and...

That God knows infinite things*
BY knowing Himself as the cause of things, He knows things other than Himself . But He is the cause of infinite things, if beings are infinite, for He is the cause of all things that are.*

2. God knows His own power perfectly . But power cannot be perfectly known, unless all the objects to which it extends are known, since according to that extent the amount of the power may be said to be determined. But His power being infinite extends to things infinite, and therefore also His knowledge.

3. If the knowledge of God extends to all things that in any sort of way are, He must not only know actual being, but also potential being. But in the physical world there is potential infinity, though not actual infinity, as the Philosopher proves. God therefore knows infinite things, in the way that unity, which is the principle of number, would know infinite species of number if it knew whatever is in its potentiality: for unity is in promise and potency every number.*

4. God in His essence, as in a sort of exemplar medium, knows other things. But as He is a being of infinite perfection, there can be modelled upon Him infinite copies with finite perfections, because no one of these copies, nor any number of them put together, can come up to the perfection of their exemplar; and thus there always remains some new way for any copy taken to imitate Him.

10. The infinite defies knowledge in so far as it defies counting. To count the parts of the infinite is an intrinsic impossibility, as involving a contradiction. To know a thing by enumeration of its parts is characteristic of a mind that knows part after part successively, not of a mind that comprehends the several parts together. Since then the divine mind knows all things together without succession, it has no more difficulty in knowing things infinite than in knowing things finite.

11. All quantity consists in a certain multiplication of parts; and therefore number is the first of quantities.* Where then plurality makes no difference, no difference can be made there by anything that follows upon quantity. But in God’s knowledge many things are known in one, not by many different presentations, but by that one species, or presentation, which is the essence of God. Hence a multitude of things is known by God all at once; and thus plurality makes no difference in God’s knowledge: neither then does infinity, which follows upon quantity.

In accordance with this is what is said in Psalm cxlvi: And of his wisdom there is no telling.

From what has been said it is clear why our mind does not know the infinite as the divine mind does. Our mind differs from the divine mind in four respects; and they make all the difference. The first is that our mind is simply finite, the divine mind infinite. The second is that as our mind knows different things by different impressions, it cannot extend to an infinity of things, as the divine mind can. The third results in this way, that as our mind is cognisant of different things by different impressions, it cannot be actually cognisant of a multitude of things at the same time;* and thus it could not know an infinity of things except by counting them in succession, which is not the case with the divine mind, which discerns many things at once as seen by one presentation. The fourth thing is that the divine mind is cognisant of things that are and of things that are not (Chap. LXVI).

It is also clear how the saying of the Philosopher, that the infinite, as infinite, is unknowable, is in no opposition with the opinion now put forth: because the notion of infinity attaches to quantity; consequently, for infinite to be known as infinite, it would have to be known by the measurement of its parts, for that is the proper way of knowing quantity: but God does not know the infinite in that way. Hence, so to say, God does not know the infinite inasmuch as it is infinite, but inasmuch as, to His knowledge, it is as though it were finite.*

It is to be observed however that God does not know an infinity of things with the ‘knowledge of vision,’ because infinite things neither actually are, nor have been, nor shall be, since, according to the Catholic faith, there are not infinite generations either in point of time past or in point of time to come. But He does know an infinity of things with the ‘knowledge of simple understanding’: for He knows infinite things that neither are, nor have been, nor shall be, and yet are in the power of the creature;* and He also knows infinite things that are in His own power, which neither are, nor shall be, nor have been. Hence to the question of the knowledge of particular things it may be replied by denial of the major: for particular things are not infinite: if however they were, God would none the less know them.


707 posted on 02/15/2012 9:46:04 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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