Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Lutherans May Voice Opposition To Marriage Amendment { ELCA }
WCCO-5 Minneapolis ^ | 2/17/12

Posted on 02/17/2012 9:45:54 AM PST by SmithL

Lutherans in Minnesota plan to officially voice their opposition to the proposed state constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage.

Close to 1,000 Lutheran representatives will vote on the issue on Friday at the annual assembly.

The resolution says the amendment would prevent one group of committed couples and families from having the same rights and protections afforded to all others.

In 2009, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America assembly in Minneapolis passed a policy that moved toward a more accepting response to same-gender relationships.

The assembly also passed resolutions that allowed for congregations to support leaders within the ELCA in committed same-gender partnerships.


TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: elca; homosexualagenda; lutheran; minnesota
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-58 next last

1 posted on 02/17/2012 9:46:05 AM PST by SmithL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SmithL

Not true Lutherans.


2 posted on 02/17/2012 9:48:12 AM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lightman

Well, there’s a surprise.


3 posted on 02/17/2012 9:49:49 AM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

Why don’t they just voice opposition by voting “no,” instead of trying to take ANY voice away from those who want to vote “yes?”


4 posted on 02/17/2012 10:10:58 AM PST by fwdude
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

So last night I read the book of Jude for the first time. It is a word for word literal description of what is happening to our churches in america.

Both my church (UMC) and this lutheran sect.


5 posted on 02/17/2012 10:11:28 AM PST by SpringtoLiberty (Liberty is on the march!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ReformationFan
Absolutely correct.

Not only are they not true Lutherans, they aren't even Christians. And yes, I can say this with authoritative certainty.

6 posted on 02/17/2012 10:12:40 AM PST by fwdude
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SmithL; lightman
The ELCA is to Lutheranism as Bizarro is to Superman.


7 posted on 02/17/2012 10:15:34 AM PST by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ReformationFan

agreed..


8 posted on 02/17/2012 10:22:24 AM PST by brivette
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran (EL C S*A) Ping!

* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.

Christ is in our midst!

9 posted on 02/17/2012 10:44:47 AM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran (EL C S*A) Ping!

* as of August 19, AD 2009, a liberal protestant SECT, not part of the holy, catholic and apostolic CHURCH.

Christ is in our midst!

10 posted on 02/17/2012 10:47:53 AM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson
E xtremely
L ibertine
C ult of
A ntinomianism

11 posted on 02/17/2012 10:49:35 AM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: lightman

My acronym for them has been either the Extremely Liberal Church in America or the Ex-Lutheran Church in America.


12 posted on 02/17/2012 10:56:17 AM PST by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: lightman

My acronym for them has been either the Extremely Liberal Church in America or the Ex-Lutheran Church in America.


13 posted on 02/17/2012 10:56:50 AM PST by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: ReformationFan

The Lutheran Church was totally destroyed by Hitler and the 3rd Reich. They were becoming secularized even before Hitler hit the scene-—the humanism destroyed many of the Christian Churches and was noted by Bonhoeffer who in America in the 30’s, said; many of the “churches” in America were so devoid of the “Word of God” that they couldn’t call themselves Christian—and it wasn’t going to be long before these churches became “temples for Baal”.

Bonhoeffer praised some of the fundamental Christian Churches though—but the Riverside and Union —ones financed and pastor propped up with billions from John D. Rockefeller taught Secularism in the 30’s—Fosdick was all over Time magazine as “brilliant” theologian when he was Satan’s mouthpiece. The Progressive/Marxists were trying to destroy Christianity then too—it started in the schools—propaganda—and pushing Atheist worldview in Children in the 30’s by the socialist Dewey and the Communists (and terrorists) who were writing curricula. Worldview is formed in childhood-—either you are a godless person—or you believe that Natural Rights come from God. America
s foundational philosophy is God-—given Natural Rights. We need to keep God in America or we loose all rights-—and the Hitler’s and zeroes know that.

The Lutherans KNOW that there is NO RIGHT TO SODOMY—it is irrational and stupid—and is Satanistic-—sodomy is the worship of hedonism and demeans human beings-—and continued practice of the acts is the slippery slope to the Hitler SA BRownshirts-—vile homosexuals who sodomized the Hitler Youth and seduced many into the homosexual lifestyle through their German “boy scout” groups founded by homosexuals so they could have orgies with boys in the woods. Like Afghanistan’s culture and that of the Ancient Greeks where women are also breeders only and boys for recreation.

These “Lutherans” are evil-—anyone who claims their is a “right” to vile acts and claim it shows “love” is sick. It is nihilism.

-—you have a Satanic temple exactly what Bonhoeffer predicted before he was killed by Hitler because he didn’t allow God to be taken out of his Christian Church.


14 posted on 02/17/2012 11:08:17 AM PST by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

Well I am convicted that those so called Christians who favor same sex marriage —I’d wager anything but my salvation that they cannot show me a single verse of Scripture that endorses homosexual unions.If they can show where in the Holy Writ that Moses, Jesus, or the Apostle Paul ever endorsed same sex unions. The way I read Scripture Moses,Followed by Jesus of Nazareth ,when He was doing His earthy Ministry, and the Apostle Paul after being converted on the road to persecute the followers of Christ.All three followed the same model for “marriage” and it was the union of one man and one woman.Jesus taught anything else was fornication and /or adultery.grounds for divorce.


15 posted on 02/17/2012 11:35:38 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: savagesusie; Charles Henrickson
Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS) might disagree with you. In the US the two main Lutheran demominations are LCMS (Missouri Synod), mainly German tradition and conservative and ELCA, more Scandinavian, and quite liberal. This bunch is ELCA. (There's a funny episode of Cheers wherein Woody gets married, but his marriage is shortly torn apart by religous contraversy. He's LCMS, she's ELCA.

Charles is a former ECLA, so maybe he can fill you in on the difference.

A big problem for the European Church is that churchs have long been supported by the state. The Nazis were careful to subsidize Protestant churchs, which made them subordinate to it. Bonhoeffer, and others, led unauthorized "confessing" churchs that opposed the Nazis, but came into conflict with it. The Roman Church lived in an uneasy relationship with the Nazis. Many Roman clerics were sent to Dachau, and Hitler intended to settle scores with the Catholics after the War.

16 posted on 02/17/2012 11:45:34 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Ceterum autem censeo, Obama delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

Most of the mainstream Protestant Churches are not going to be helpful in the culture war. That’s one reason the Catholic Church is in the crosshairs of the regime now.


17 posted on 02/17/2012 12:24:18 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SmithL
Every time the ELCA passes one of these apostate resolutions, the Missouri Synod picks up more congregations who vote to come on over, mmm, mmm, mmm.

I look at the glass half full, LOL.

Leni

18 posted on 02/17/2012 12:41:14 PM PST by MinuteGal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: StonyBurk

They assert that King David had more than feelings for Absalom and even insinuate that there might be more to Jesus’ relationship with St. John in that he is termed “the beloved Disciple”.

Blasphemy! Anathema!


19 posted on 02/17/2012 12:41:33 PM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

20 posted on 02/17/2012 12:55:52 PM PST by massmike (Massachusetts:Stopped hanging witches;started electing Kennedys.Coincidence?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lightman

Since King David and Absalom were father and son, does that mean the ELCA believes in and supports homosexual incest as well according to that theory of “interpretation”(better called projection)?


21 posted on 02/17/2012 1:32:10 PM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: MinuteGal

Back in 2009, I thought that’s what would happen, but I really haven’t seen that come about. A few individuals, including myself, have crossed the Missouri, but I don’t think that the LCMS’s numbers have increased all that much. I’d be delighted if you had some numbers to prove me wrong.

For many former ELCA members, the issues of women clergy and close communion are deal-breakers with the LCMS.


22 posted on 02/17/2012 1:55:28 PM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: lightman; Charles Henrickson; Cletus.D.Yokel

Larry decided to spend a day at the track. Checking out the paddock, he noticed a priest laying his hands on a horse’s head and saying a prayer. He immediately went and placed a bet on the horse, which came in first.

Going back to the paddock before the next race, he again saw the same priest lay his hands on another horse and again say a prayer. Larry ran to the window and again bet on that horse. The horse also came in first.

Returning to the paddock, Larry saw the priest approach another horse. But this time he not only placed his hands on the horse’s head, but on his withers and fore-legs. Larry again ran to the betting window and bet all he had on the horse. The horse came in last.

Larry went into the paddock and, finding the priest, asked him how it was this horse placed last when the other two had finished first. The priest said “You protestants never could tell the difference between a ‘blessing’ and ‘Last Rites’”!

Told at a banquet last night by a Catholic buddy, who this Lutheran really appreciates for his jokes...


23 posted on 02/17/2012 2:14:16 PM PST by bcsco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS) might disagree with you. In the US the two main Lutheran demominations are LCMS (Missouri Synod), mainly German tradition and conservative and ELCA, more Scandinavian, and quite liberal. This bunch is ELCA. . . . Charles is a former ELCA. . . .

Former ELCA predecessor body. My grandparents emigrated from Sweden, so I started out in the old Augustana Synod. But when I was a kid, a lot of the Swedes were moving out to the suburbs of Chicago, we stayed in the city, and our little Augustana congregation disbanded. The closest Lutheran church was LCMS. That's how a Swede ended up in the Missouri Synod with all those Germans.

24 posted on 02/17/2012 3:08:58 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SmithL; MinuteGal
Every time the ELCA passes one of these apostate resolutions, the Missouri Synod picks up more congregations who vote to come on over. . . .

Back in 2009, I thought that’s what would happen, but I really haven’t seen that come about. A few individuals, including myself, have crossed the Missouri, but I don’t think that the LCMS’s numbers have increased all that much.

You are correct. It's been a trickle and not a torrent.

For many former ELCA members, the issues of women clergy and close communion are deal-breakers with the LCMS.

Those are the two primary issues where many ex-ELCA would still be too liberal to join the LCMS.

25 posted on 02/17/2012 3:12:52 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

Not MY kind of Lutheran!!!! More and more I find myself wanting to eschew the word “Lutheran” altogether—if nothing else but to prevent anyone from confusing ELCA with LCMS again.

By the way, did any catch the name of one of the witnesses re: HHS birth control mandates?

Rev. Matthew Harrison, president of the LCMS.

Meanwhile, the ELCA already pays for contraceptives and abortions for their church workers.

LCMS for the win!


26 posted on 02/17/2012 3:47:40 PM PST by Conservaliberty (25 and conservative. I guess I have no heart, Oh, well, makes shooting the bad guys easier.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fwdude

“Not only are they not true Lutherans, they aren’t even Christians. And yes, I can say this with authoritative certainty.”


Absolutely you can. As an organization, the ELCA is truly heathen. They have had series of sermons at their seminaries claiming that there was no need for Christ to rise from the dead, they deny that the bible is the true word of God. If they are not already non-christian then all they need to do is deny trinitarian theology and they will no longer fit the definition of Christian per the Athanasian creed. The leaders of the ELCA are steadily working on their millstones.

Still, just as there are ‘catholics’ who support gay marriage, some members of the ELCA oppose most of what their church is doing. Not every single ELCA member is non-christian, but they need to get out lest their faith be threatened more and more.

I do not condemn all individual constituents of the ELCA, but you are absolutely right in saying that the ELCA is a non-christian body. Your authoritative certainty comes from the bible.


27 posted on 02/17/2012 3:56:15 PM PST by Conservaliberty (25 and conservative. I guess I have no heart, Oh, well, makes shooting the bad guys easier.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

“Lutherans in Minnesota plan to officially voice their opposition to the proposed state constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage.”

This was from a radio station, WCCO, well known in the Twin Cities.

Isn’t it interesting how news organizations are ready to investigate exhaustively stories involving certain kinds of people and ideas and others they simply take at their word. I grew up in the Twin Cities, listening to ‘CCO every morning for the weather, school closings, etc. To see that now they are willing to accept as truth whatever the ELCA tells them is truth ... sad.

“Lutherans” defending same-sex marriage is as logical as Jews, gypsies, JW’s, and Masons being in favor of the National Socialist Democratic Workers Party (NSDAP/Nazi). They aren’t Lutheran, they are post-Lutheran, post-Christian ELCA acolytes of pagan altars.


28 posted on 02/17/2012 6:51:32 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar; Conservaliberty

I saw a different slant, in the Chicago Tribune, in Nov. 2007. The article stated that a lesbian was ordained, in an ELCA church. The article stated, “Although the ELCA ordains gays, other Lutheran groups, Missouri Synod and Wisconsin synod, don’t ordain gays, because they follow scripture.”


29 posted on 02/17/2012 7:58:46 PM PST by PhilCollins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson

I think it’s good if the ex-ELCAers aren’t going into the LCMS, at least not without completely discarding their liberal views supporting women’s ordination. I’m a PCA layman and I wouldn’t want former PCUSAers who join the PCA to bring their liberal views on that issue with them. It would only disrupt the churches they’re joining.


30 posted on 02/17/2012 9:03:09 PM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Charles Henrickson

Excellent cartoon!(I’m a Calvinistic Superman fan). I would add to your analogy what the PCUSA is to Presbyterianism.


31 posted on 02/17/2012 9:06:46 PM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SpringtoLiberty

“So last night I read the book of Jude for the first time. It is a word for word literal description of what is happening to our churches in america.”

Indeed.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=ESVUK

Jude 1
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
Greeting

1 Jude, a servant[a] of Jesus Christ and brother of James,

To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for[b] Jesus Christ:

2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Judgement on False Teachers

3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[d] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgement, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. 11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. 12 These are hidden reefs[e] at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved for ever.

14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgement on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favouritism to gain advantage.

A Call to Persevere

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They[f] said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment[g] stained by the flesh.

Doxology

24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen.


32 posted on 02/17/2012 9:10:45 PM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SmithL; lightman
[ELCA]Lutherans in Minnesota plan to officially voice their opposition to the proposed state constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage.

Since the majority of Minnesotans favor traditional marriage, seeing the apostate ELCA come out against it will probably drive more people out of Babylon Central. Let us give thanks for that.

Minnesota leads the nation in the number of congregations that have emigrated. Everything the ELCA can do to increase that lead is all right by me.

33 posted on 02/17/2012 9:15:27 PM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

I am so glad to be out of the ELCA. I’ve found a very good home in the Church of the Nazarene.


34 posted on 02/17/2012 9:50:53 PM PST by MarilynBr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ReformationFan

One of the reasons that the ELCA is so extremely liberal is the inclusion of former LCMS “progressive” dissidents. The most radical of the ELCA predecessor bodies was the AELC, which had split off from the LCMS following Seminex. Thanks to a constitutional quota system, the AELC contingent had disproportionate influence in the ELCA’s policies which set the Synod on a direct course for the shoals it now finds itself on.


35 posted on 02/17/2012 10:26:17 PM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: rhema; lightman
No big surprise:

Minneapolis-area Lutherans oppose marriage amendment

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/139536313.html

36 posted on 02/17/2012 10:30:12 PM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: PhilCollins

I like that slant, if slant it can be called. I like it because it has the virtue of being both true and scriptural.


37 posted on 02/18/2012 9:42:13 AM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

I’m not so sure that the AELC added that much more radicalism. The former LCA was just as radical and 30 times larger - at least on paper.

On the other hand, the impetus that led the Seminex crowd out of the LC-MS to form the AELC was the best ecclesiastical enema the Lutheran church ever received.


38 posted on 02/18/2012 9:52:37 AM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: ReformationFan

How long before image of Obama is on the ELCA altars?


39 posted on 02/18/2012 9:53:32 AM PST by huskerjim
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar

I grew up LCA. I still remember confirmation classes and my pastor telling us not to show excitement by saying “Jumpin’ Jiminey!” since it was too much like Gemini, a false god.

The LCA certainly became a lot more liberal, but nowhere near as radical as the AELC. It was the quotas that gave AELC equal voice with the larger ALC and LCA bodies. And make no mistake, the quotas were always intended to make the new ELCA a lot more liberal than the ALC or LCA had been.


40 posted on 02/18/2012 10:50:28 AM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: SmithL; lightman; Honorary Serb; hinckley buzzard
"What we've heard today is the Lutheran Church is about welcome, " said Lauren Morse-Wendt . . .

Is it mandatory that every ELCA spokeswoman or administrator have a hyphenated last name?

So let's see, Lauren Morse-Wendt or Martin Luther?

". . . Here then we have these two, the faith and the Gospel, that these and nothing else are to be preached throughout Christendom. Let us now see who are to be the preachers and who the learners. The preachers are to be angels, that is, God's messengers, who are to lead a heavenly life, are to be constantly engaged with God's Word that they under no circumstances preach the doctrines of men. It is a most incongruous thing thing to be God's messenger and not to further God's message. Angelus means a messenger, and Luke calls him God's messenger (Angelus Domini). The message also is of more importance than the messenger's life. If he leads a wicked life, he only injures himself, but if he brings a false message in the place of God's message, he leads astray and injures every one that hears him, and causes idolatry among the people in that they accept lies for the truth, honor men instead of God, and pray to the devil instead of God.

"There is no more terrible plague, misfortune or cause for distress upon earth than a preacher who does not preach God's Word; of whom, alas, the world today is full, and yet they think they are pious and do good when indeed their whole work is nothing but murdering souls, blaspheming God and setting up idolatry, so that it would be much better for them if they were robbers, murderers, and the worst scoundrels, for then they would know that they are doing wickedly. But now they go along under spiritual names and show . . . and are at the same time ravening wolves in sheeps' clothing, and it would be well if no one ever heard their preaching."

Christmas Day Sermon [Sermons of Martin Luther, Volume 1: Sermons on Gospel Texts for Advent, Christmas, and Epiphany]

41 posted on 02/18/2012 12:32:19 PM PST by rhema ("Break the conventions; keep the commandments." -- G. K. Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

SmithL, I’m not trying to start a fight with you. However, you must realize that the former LCA was already a severely compromised group in 1962 when it was formed from four other “Lutheran” groups. Your experience would very much have depended on which of these four your home congregation would have sprung from, because some were more theologically conservative than others.

To be noted, however, is that the largest of the four bodies was called the United Lutheran Church in America, which was itself a merger group formed from the General Synod, the General Council, and the General Synod of the South. The name you want to look for in history here is Samuel Simon Schmucker (1799-1873), who drank deeply from the theological well that sprang from the so-called Enlightenment (when it comes to theology, Endarkenment would be a better term). He is, in many ways, the spiritual godfather of the LCA and today’s ELCA. He was not Lutheran in his theology, and the ULCA, then LCA, and now ELCA has been paying an ever and ever higher price since then on account of the theological tares he sowed among the wheat of sound confessional Lutheran theology.

The other Lutheran groups, the LC-MS, the WELS, and the ELS have a completely different history and theological foundations.


42 posted on 02/18/2012 12:46:36 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: SmithL

Bingo.

“Gospel Reductionism” = Seminex deceptionism.


43 posted on 02/18/2012 1:15:41 PM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar

We’re in no danger of fighting about any of this. I came from the ULCA, way back when, and agree with your conclusions about that branch. My only point is that the quota system used in creating the “New” Lutheran Church gave the AELC more voice than it should have had.


44 posted on 02/18/2012 1:57:33 PM PST by SmithL (If you reward certain behavior, don't be surprised when you see more of that behavior)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: huskerjim

You mean he’s not there already? The ELCA must be “racist” ;)


45 posted on 02/18/2012 2:47:22 PM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: rhema; lightman

....Is it mandatory that every ELCA spokeswoman or administrator have a hyphenated last name?...

Yes!

And a hyphenated name SHOUTS “feminist from the 1970s”!!!! (That even applies to “hypenates” who were born in 1980 or later!)

he 1970s were a cultural desert that America has NEVER recovered from! When we do recover, by God’s grace we may become great again!!!!


46 posted on 02/18/2012 3:07:37 PM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Belteshazzar; lightman; SmithL

The heritage of the ULCA/LCA (of which I was once a member) not only includes Samuel Simon Schmucker (1799-1873) but also Charles Porterfield Krauth (1823–1883).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Porterfield_Krauth

Pretty different, isn’t he? And I’m speaking as one who was mentored by pastors who graduated from the OLD Philadelphia Seminary (before it too became radical/liberal), of which Krauth was an early leader. Krauth’s influence eclipsed that of Schmucker in the ULCA/LCA, which after all held to the Augsburg Confession and the doctrine of the Real Presence, and other Lutheran touchstones that Schmucker denied, and ended up with an Orthodox-inflenced liturgy.

The plain fact is that faithful, conservative Lutherans from every church body that formed the ELCA blame the others for the eventual sorry fall of American Lutheranism. ALC people blame the LCA “Eastern establishment”, LCA people blame those “soft Minnesota liberal pietists” of the ALC, and nearly everybody blames Seminex!!!!

With much more justification, many people blame that organizing committee for the ELCA back in the late 1980s, infiltrated by stealth gaysbian activists like Barbara Lundblad, as well as by the quota and “inclusive language” crowds.

Hopefully, those of us who have gone on to become Orthodox or Roman Catholic have moved beyond the blame game. (That’s part of spiritual growth, after all.) We see that nearly ALL American and European Protestantism has experienced the same cultural, theological, and spiritual rot as the ELCA. Therefore, there is something much deeper going on, which the Lutheran “blame game” cannot address.


47 posted on 02/18/2012 3:34:29 PM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Honorary Serb
Krauth’s influence eclipsed that of Schmucker in the ULCA/LCA, which after all held to theUNALTERED Augsburg Confession and the doctrine of the Real Presence,

Fixed it.

Otherwise, perfect! The key issue of UAC vs. Altered is the Real Presence.

48 posted on 02/18/2012 3:42:03 PM PST by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Honorary Serb

You are quite correct in regard to Charles Porterfield Krauth. I have his magnum opus, The Conservative Reformation and its Theology, and have read it closely cover to cover. He was a faithful and fine theologian and pastor. However, that is beside the point. When the General Synod (the heritage of Schmucker) and the General Council (the heritage of Krauth) were joined (after the death of both), what communion did error have with truth? In other words, why did confession of truth wed itself to faulty and heretical confession? What always happens when a little leaven is added to the lump? That is why I didn’t mention Krauth or any others. Schmucker’s theology is the leaven, the leaven of false doctrine. It is the same leaven - he was NOT Lutheran! - that has leavened all the mainline protestant groups in the U.S.A.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy suffer cultural rot as well; and they have their own kind of leaven ... and they do have it! As an aside I went to a function (celebrity speaker) at a local Catholic parish a few weeks ago. Hundreds of people silently (and thus approvingly) tolerated the rot he spewed and took in the leaven he delved out. And the priest just smiled like an idiot and let it go on.

There is, perhaps, something even deeper than you realize going on here!

And if you want to talk about the non-denominational and charismatic groups, well, they simply threw out the whole lump and started anew ... but not until adding their own leaven.

The truth is that wherever Christ builds His church, Antichrist always grabs space in the pews, and then in time some pulpits, and then, when he is able, altars as well. It was no different in the Old Testament church, just read the prophets. And if you think it is different in the time of the New Testament, then you are not reading what is right in front of you in the text of it.

Swimming the Tiber or the Bosphorus is no protection.


49 posted on 02/18/2012 4:05:09 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: lightman; Honorary Serb; xone

“Otherwise, perfect! The key issue of UAC vs. Altered is the Real Presence.”

True enough. However, the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord’s Supper 1) is not the only issue; and 2) it is just the doctrine the devil most likes to use to separate the Good Shepherd from His sheep because it comprehends so many other doctrines, and thus its right confession either confirms or compromises those many other doctrines; and 3) the AC was followed by, most importantly, the Formula of Concord. If one does not confess without reservation the Formula, one’s confession of the AC is pretty much meaningless. In the same way, if one holds to the Apostles Creed, but balks at the Nicene and Athanasian, one does not really hold to the Apostles either.

Or to put it still more simply, one can confess that “Jesus is Lord” till one is blue in the face, and it will do you no good if the Jesus you confess is not the Jesus the Holy Scriptures testify to.

The ULCA/LCA was fatally flawed from the beginning, because Schmuckerism - even the word is unpleasant to the eye and the ear! - was not explicitly and in all points thoroughly rejected. Or, to put it another way, the ULCA/LCA was the American recension of the Prussian Unionism, i.e., the forced union of Luther with Calvin.

“When error is admitted into the Church, it will be found that the stages of its progress are always three. It begins by asking TOLERATION. Its friends say to the majority: You need not be afraid of us; we are few, and weak; only let us alone; we shall not disturb the faith of the others. The Church has her standards of doctrine; of course we shall never interfere with them; we only ask for ourselves to be spared interference with our private opinions. Indulged in this for a time, error goes on to assert EQUAL RIGHTS. Truth and error are two balancing forces. The Church shall do nothing which looks like deciding between them; that would be partiality. It is bigotry to assert any superior right for the truth. We are to agree to differ, and any favoring of the truth, because it is truth, is partisanship. What the friends of truth and error hold in common is fundamental. Anything on which they differ is ipso facto non-essential. Anybody who makes account of such a thing is a disturber of the peace of the church. Truth and error are two coordinate powers, and the great secret of church-statesmanship is to preserve the balance between them. From this point error soon goes on to its natural end, which is to assert SUPREMACY.”
- Charles Porterfield Krauth, The Conservative Reformation and its Theology, Augsburg Publishing House, Minneapolis, MN, First Edition 1963, pp. 195-196.

There is much here for every Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist/Arminian, Baptist, Pentecostal, or Non-Denominational (as if there could be such a thing) to meditate on. For the story is the same in each, the only difference being the words used to confuse the participants.


50 posted on 02/18/2012 4:41:37 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-58 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson