A Prophecy for the Church in America [Ecumenical]

Standing on my head ^ | February 17, 2012 | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

[NYer]

A prophet is not necessarily someone who has a supernatural vision of the future. He may simply be a person who can see certain trends in the present, understand the underlying issues and therefore attempt to predict how things may go in the future.

Here are some trends I see in the American Church and how I see the future developing. The first thing is the disintegration of denominationalism. It used to be that the different Protestant groups were distinct in their theology and their style of worship. There were boundaries. You pretty much knew what to expect in a Southern Baptist Church, a Methodist Church, Lutheran, Presbyterian or Episcopal. There were clear distinctions theologically and culturally and historically.

The boundaries are disappearing fast. In all Protestant churches there is a kind of post-modern pick and mix attitude. The old distinctive markers are falling and a new experimental attitude is taking place. So a relative of mine, a young Baptist minister, enthusiastically claims to "read all those guys" meaning that he avidly reads Anglican, Catholic, Baptist, Independent and classical Lutheran and Methodist theologians. He and his generation are also open to all sorts of worship styles. Their attitude is shared by the younger generation of Evangelicals in all denominations. People are no longer Methodist or Presbyterian or Baptist for life and for clear theological reasons. Instead they gravitate to a church that suits them and their lifestyle. Utilitarianism and market forces reign supreme.

The two trends within the Protestant churches seem to be toward free "mega church" type worship which conforms to the trends in society or a reaction against that to move toward "liturgy". So a neighbor who goes to a conservative Presbyterian church likes to tell me how "liturgical" they are. They observe Advent and Lent and Ash Wednesday. They light candles on the "altar" when they "celebrate communion" and every once in a while they have "Choral Evensong." Another friend tells me he goes to a Baptist Church that is "very liturgical."

I predict that the disintegration of denominationalism will continue and that trends within the Catholic Church will converge with what is happening within Protestantism to produce some very interesting and new configurations.

As the "cultural Catholics" who were leaders in the seventies and eighties continue to die off, their children will be less likely to practice the Catholic faith. As it becomes increasingly odd to be a "faithful Catholic" in our society--even leading to persecution and isolation, the Catholics without any backbone will simply stop being Catholics. If they did not have enough faith and courage to send their children to Catholic school and take the teachings of the church seriously, then if hardship comes, they will melt away.

At the same time the Catholics who remain will have the fervor and dedication of the faithful Protestants who have been moving in a liturgical direction. These Protestants are looking not only for liturgy, but for the historic church--the apostolic church. They will be increasingly attracted to the Catholic faith and as they Catholic church population shifts in a more committed direction they will feel more at home there.

This is where the new Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter may play a very crucial role. As an increasing number of Protestants explore the liturgical and historical church they will be looking for a church that is faithful to the Scriptures, faithful to the historic liturgy, faithful to the magisterium and ready to show forth a committed, radical kind of Catholicism fully committed to the new Evangelization.

The short version: two vibrant forms of Christianity will emerge in the United States--a free flowing, relevant and 'cool' kind of personalistic Pentecostalism and a renewed and revitalized and young Catholicism. The others will fade away.

But I may be wrong. I'm not really a prophet...

[cloudmountain]

There are and always have been two kinds of churches. Ones where the Holy Spirit resides and those where He does not.

Father Dwight Longenecker notwithstanding, YOU got it right. The Holy Spirit always has been with the Church, is now and always will be. Where HE is, there is where I want to be.

Where the Holy Spirit isn't, well, those are just Sunday-populated buildings.

[cloudmountain]

Your never going to purify the Church, however, what we believe about the purity of the Catholic Church is that doctrinally the Church led by the Holy Spirit will not teach error. Its doctrines are sound and truthful. Which doesnt exactly prevent a priest from telling you bunk. But that bunk will disagree with the ‘teachings of the Church’, its doctrine!
If you can find another church like this, then you have a winner.

You've got it right.
Jesus KNEW who Judas Iscariot was and what he would do. I think that Judas was part of the template that Jesus showed us. HE chose 12 apostles and ONE was bad. That tells us that we will be finding our men of the cloth flawed sometimes.

Popes don't err when it comes to doctrine and morality. That is the Holy Spirit working. The other stuff? Well, that is humanity working.
My opinion.

[ex-snook]

"Popes don't err when it comes to doctrine and morality. That is the Holy Spirit working. The other stuff? Well, that is humanity working."

Amen. No matter what they did as sinners, they did not corrupt God's teachings. David was no bargain either and Peter had his moments. God picked people to spread his message, warts and all.

[Biggirl]

I do believe you will see more folks coming from what used to be missionary countries coming to witness for the Lord in the USA once again. It is as a matter of fact is happening.

[D-fendr]

I wish I had more time.

I’m a late-in-life convert to the Catholic Church. I went through RCIA. One can approach the Church through this, without obligating to join the Church. Anyway, there are much better ways to answer your very good questions than in this medium.

I would suggest one thought. It seems some of your questions come under two headings: intercessory prayer and the Communion of Saints. I think it is likely you already believe and understand intercessory prayer; so, it is the Communion of Saints in the Catholic, and creedal, view that could, I believe, answer your objections in a very simple and acceptable way.

thanks for your posts...

[NYer]

I am truly moved by the sincerity of your post.

There are periods in the history of the Roman Catholic Church where the leadership has been very corrupt. It occurs today, on occasion, as well. I don't see where there is any mechanism for the laity to remove these corrupt bishops, cardinals, or popes.

While it is true that there have been some bad apples amongst the hierarchy, no pope has ever erred on doctrines of faith or morals! The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has "no spot, wrinkle or blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error? Individual clergy may commit sins, even popes commit sins because in the Church there are both "weeds and wheat" (Matthew 13:30).

Yet,.. if the member leaves the Catholic Church ( and the corruption under which they suffer) they are guilty of a mortal sin and in danger of eternal condemnation.

I can appreciate the consternation felt by catholics that reside in dioceses run by some of the more progressive bishops. That has been the situation here for 30+ years. Some leave, others go underground. In the course of my life, I have stepped away from the church several times and justified the decision with similar arguments. But as each liturgical season approached, there would be a tugging at my heart. At one time I even considered leaving the catholic church but a small interior voice would not allow it.

The diocese in which I reside is run by one of the worst (i.e. progressive) bishops in the US. Rather than flee, I recalled the bishop's message to us on the day of our Confirmation: "You are now soldiers of Christ!" Soldiers don't flee, they fight back. Reminded of our Lord's admonition to "seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you", I began with prayer and asked our Lord to guide me to "a holy priest, a reverent liturgy and a community in need of whatever God given gifts I had". Visiting a different parish each week, I continued that prayer. On my list, there were 2 Eastern Catholic Churches. On the day I visited the Maronite Catholic Church, our Lord let me know in no uncertain terms that here was the answer to that prayer. That was 8 years ago and I have been truly blessed by His response.

This type of threat ( separation from the “true” church and the “true” sacraments) seems to be almost cult-like mind control.

Cults lock their doors; the Catholic Church's doors are always open. According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (essentially a spiritual form of the the sin of polygamy)? No, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).

Should you feel more comfortable doing so, please feel free to freepmail me about your concerns and I will do my best to respond. We are entering the Season of Lent this week. This is a good time to retreat into daily prayer and ask our Lord for His guidance. Jesus, I trust in you!

[AnalogReigns]

Episcopal Churches that have become Roman Catholic...typically already were Roman Catholic in Mary rituals, praying to the saints, purgatory, praying for the dead, etc.

Within the Anglican (Episcopal) tradition VERY wide latitude was allowed for how Roman a church’s faith and practice could be. Some churches could very well be Lutheran, Presbyterian, (or almost Baptist) in how they worship, and their beliefs. Others are, for all practical purposes Roman Catholic without accepting the authority of the Pope (as with C.L. Lewis’ type Anglicanism, the papacy was always the sticking point).

These almost-Catholic Episcopalians/Anglicans are called “Anglo-Catholic” (and even with them, some just look very Catholic...without Catholic doctrines, while others...really are Catholic). Very Anglo-Catholic congregations in the Episcopal denomination in America are, and have always been a small minority.

Interestingly, in today’s break-away Anglican groups, the more Anglo-Catholic ones are the strongest holding out against female ordination. Their argument though is one based on Tradition (with a capitol “T”) not scripture (a la Catholics).

With these beliefs...the current (apostate) Episcopal Church has also basically pushed them out...

[wintertime]

I was unaware that there was such a wide latitude of religious practice in the Episcopal Church.

[AnalogReigns]

So called “non-denominationalism” is in itself a CONTINUATION in the extreme of denominationalism.

Why? Every so-called non-denominational or “Bible” church has its own distinct theology (or set of theologies) which at least the head pastor holds (and each assistant may well have a different theology too). This means the bigger and more “mega” such churches get, the less they cooperate with other churches—as their pastor, his personality, not a tried and tested approach to the Bible....dominates their beliefs.

Most such churches are baptistic in practice, and Zwinglian in assumptions... making them, historically speaking—at the edge of Protestantism (even if pretty well center in American evangelicalism).

Typically they substitute the modern/hyper-individualist SOLO scriptura (individual interpretation only, with NO respect for past Christian belief or traditions) for the classic Protestant/Reformation SOLA scriptura (yes, one letter “a” different) which respected past Christian belief and practice—but just put scripture—as discovered by the Church corporate...as the full and final authority. (yes, that is a seemingly subtle difference, but important).

What this means in practice is that when a mega-church pastor dies/retires or leaves (under a cloud or not) from such an “independent” church, that body finds it nearly impossible to replace him—as the Church’s essential beliefs ARE the founding pastor’s individual beliefs....

Classic Protestant groups however, rally around the Bible as their final authority—but while reading it in respect to generations of devout Christians who came before. Such confessional churches rely on a confession—an agreed upon summary of biblical truths, arranged in a systematic way. This actually builds MORE unity with other churches, as one can be in direct communion with many other churches (a denomination) and not be standing alone (or reliant on a pastor with a charismatic personality), mis-trustful of other churches....as so many so called “non-denominational” (hyper-individualist/divisive) churches are.

I’ve seen it happen more than once. Show me a “non-denominational” church, and I will show you a body with its own unique spin on the Bible, which really doesn’t give respect to either other equally biblically orthodox churches now, or the rich history of 2,000 years of the Church.

[Cvengr]

What this means in practice is that when a mega-church pastor dies/retires or leaves (under a cloud or not) from such an “independent” church, that body finds it nearly impossible to replace him—as the Church’s essential beliefs ARE the founding pastor’s individual beliefs....

Pretty good description of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church.

[AnalogReigns]

I was unaware that there was such a wide latitude of religious practice in the Episcopal Church.

Actually, in the last 20 or 30 years there's been a serious narrowing of acceptable religious practice within The (official) Episcopalian Church (TEC). More and more, if a pastor objects to the official Politically Correct line (female priests & bishops....as well as--much worse--active homosexual priests and bishops....) dictated from the NYC offices of TEC, they will be marginalized or even force to leave. In particular, they have squeezed out traditional conservative/orthodox Christians--either from the evangelical/biblical side (so called "low church) or (and especially) the Anglo-Catholic ("high church") side.

Very few Anglo-Catholic congregations remain Episcopal...

Over the last 20 or 30 years, membership of TEC has reduced by over 30%--and the average age of members today is somewhere over 60. TEC is literally dying.

[Cvengr]

“A Priest is someone who speaks to God about men, .... A Prophet is someone who speaks to men ... from God,... “

[AnalogReigns]

What this means in practice is that when a mega-church pastor dies/retires or leaves (under a cloud or not) from such an “independent” church, that body finds it nearly impossible to replace him—as the Church’s essential beliefs ARE the founding pastor’s individual beliefs....

Pretty good description of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church.

Interestingly, in a slow-motion, over the centuries, way....I think you are right.

Whenever the final authority goes to the Bible AND (some charismatic leader or traditional body or you-fill-in-the-blank)there are problems.

My main point was however that the hyper-individualism that non-denominationalism accommodates, and encourages--is more divisive to Christianity than old-fashioned denominationalism.

[Cvengr]

FWIW, I also perceive, in substance, the message of the article is occurring.

It troubles me that there has been a push in the recent past to unify Islam with RCC, if not explicitly, then at least by appearance. The recent moves in the Middle East from Africa to Indonesia appear to be an effort to unite Islam from Shia/Sunni differences.

While Catholicism expresses many outstanding doctrines, it also is one of the most visible worldly perceptions of Christianity. This makes it ripe for targeting by the Adversary, to encroach and attempt to counterfeit from within.

IMHO, our first priority is to remain in faith through Christ in all things and let His Will prevail.