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Baptism Now Saves
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/baptism-now-saves/ ^ | 02-20-12 | Bill Randles

Posted on 02/19/2012 4:28:52 PM PST by pastorbillrandles

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(Mark 16:16)

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:(I Peter 3:20-21)

Today in our local church, we celebrate the hopeful end of a long draught… the first baptism in more than a year and a half. True, our two baptisms amount to a “cloud the size of a man’s hand” but we humbly rejoice! As it is written,”despise not the day of small beginnings”.

In contemplating baptism, I have been meditating on the scriptures above. In what sense could it be said that “baptism now saves us”? I know that it is faith in Jesus’ blood that has procured the pardon and status of righteousness that I needed in order to “flee the wrath” of a righteous and holy God!

The Christian author Watchman Nee, an early but profound influence on my discipleship is helpful here. In the book “Love Not The World” , Nee points out that the word “salvation” is used not in a general but in a specific sense.

Nee points out that every detail of our sinful and God estranged existence has been answered to by the work of God in Christ. For example, because of our spiritual death, God gives eternal life. Sin has ruined the old creation, but God makes a new creation. Since man is under a just but severe condemnation, through Jesus, God offers man justification by faith. Redemption is multi-faceted.

Another facet of man’s ruin is the fact that he has been born and raised, in this world. The term “the world” , in the new testament usually refers to God estranged humanity as it has organized itself, independently of and to the exclusion of the only true God. It is the greek word “Cosmos”, meaning ‘the order” or “adornment”.

Thus salvation is not so much a personal question of sins forgiven or of hell avoided. It is to be seen rather in terms of a system from which we come out. When I am saved, I make my exodus out of one whole world and my entry into another. I am saved now out of that whole organized realm which Satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God.(Watchman Nee,”Love Not The World”,Christian Literature Crusade)

The Word of God says of the World;

* It is already under a judgment- Jesus said, Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.(John 12:31) The sentence has already been passed, the world is already judged by God , the Lord is uncompromising in his resolution. As in the days of Noah, the execution of the sentence hangs over the world like a cloud, the day of Divine vengeance draws near!

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright(Psalm 11:5-7)

* The real ruler of the world is Satan- In the scripture above, Jesus referred to ‘the prince of this world’, who would be cast down, at the judgment of this world. Jesus would later proclaim that in the coming of Judas ,’the prince of this world comes….’. Who was he referring to? Satan, the real ‘god’ of this age, and the mind behind the ‘world system’.John, the Lord’s apostle warned us that “the whole world lies in the wicked one’s power”.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (I John 5:19 NASB)

* The world hates Christ- If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you ( John 15: 17-18)

Don’t let the world deceive you with it’s platitudes about Jesus as a ‘good man’ or a philosopher, the world hates the real Jesus of the Bible. He offends them because he tells them that they aren’t right, and that they need to be saved, and worse yet, that they can’t even save themselves!

The world has crafted another christianity that is more to their liking, but it is anti-christ.They hate the real Christ and would crucify him again if given a chance.That is why the world has always persecuted christians wherever possible.

* The love of the world and the love of the Father are mutually exclusive - John reveals this truth to us, in this admonition of his epistle;

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (I John 2:15)

Therefore we are “saved” out of this world! In this sense do Peter and Mark proclaim that “baptism saves”, or that “he that believes and is baptized will be saved”. In baptism, we are stepping over the line of demarcation, exiting the doomed world, even as Noah did , through the water.

Remember that Israel never really left Egypt until she crossed the Red Sea. Egypt went in with her, but never came out the other side as she did. There is no real leaving of the ties of this world, without a valid new testament baptism whenever possible.

Two brothers, left the World today, calling upon Jesus! They went from one Kingdom to another, they crossed the Red Sea! They passed through the flood of Judgment into the Kingdom of Light! They justified God! Hallelujah!!


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: baptism; cosmos; jesus; world
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1 posted on 02/19/2012 4:29:05 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles

Water does not save. Faith does. The Gospel is 1 Cor 15: 1-4. Death, burial and resurrection. That SAVES!! Nothing else. Water does not.


2 posted on 02/19/2012 4:48:03 PM PST by RetiredArmy (POLITICIANS: Promise the moon. Deliver the shaft.)
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To: pastorbillrandles

So many contortions to come toward the Catholic truth; Baptism saves because we are Baptized in God’s Name (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). We are no longer sinners condemned but children redeemed into God’s Holy Family through the sacrifice of the New Covenant, Christ. See my profile for more on the subject.

I’d write more but I don’t have time right now. That’s fundamental truth right there, though.


3 posted on 02/19/2012 5:00:04 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: RetiredArmy
Water does not save. Faith does. The Gospel is 1 Cor 15: 1-4. Death, burial and resurrection. That SAVES!! Nothing else. Water does not.

You should try the actual Gospels... I recommend John 3:5.

4 posted on 02/19/2012 5:04:21 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pastorbillrandles

NO it doesn’t.

It’s used for putting out fires, washing clothes and drinking.

I’ll read later.


5 posted on 02/19/2012 5:48:16 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: RetiredArmy

You wrote:

“Water does not save. Faith does.”

Grace saves. Baptism is grace.

“Death, burial and resurrection. That SAVES!! Nothing else. Water does not.”

I guess you never read Romans 6:4.


6 posted on 02/19/2012 5:53:26 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: Vendome

It’s used for putting out fires, washing clothes and drinking.

So, it(water) saves our house when it is burning, saves us from wearing filthy clothes, and saves us from dying of thirst. Just a thought, it just might help us in our journey to eternity also.


7 posted on 02/19/2012 5:57:57 PM PST by taterjay
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To: vladimir998; RetiredArmy
What about Romans 6:4 leads you to believe that Paul is speaking of water baptism? How are we "baptized into Jesus Christ"? Rom. 6:3.

"For BY ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body...." 1 Cor. 12:13. It is the HOLY SPIRIT, in this age of grace, who baptizes us into Christ, not baptism by water.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph. 4:4-6.

There is ONE BAPTISM. We are baptized BY the Holy Spirit INTO Christ during this age of grace.

Now, if you can make ONE BAPTISM into two, spiritual AND water, then something is contrary to God's Word.

8 posted on 02/19/2012 6:13:21 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

You wrote:

“What about Romans 6:4 leads you to believe that Paul is speaking of water baptism? How are we “baptized into Jesus Christ”? Rom. 6:3.”

It is sacramental. That’s the whole point.

“”For BY ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body....” 1 Cor. 12:13. It is the HOLY SPIRIT, in this age of grace, who baptizes us into Christ, not baptism by water.”

The Holy Spirit acts through water Baptism - just as Christ knew would happen. John 3:5.

“There is ONE BAPTISM. We are baptized BY the Holy Spirit INTO Christ during this age of grace.”

Yes, through water Baptism. John 3:5.

“Now, if you can make ONE BAPTISM into two, spiritual AND water, then something is contrary to God’s Word.”

There is only one Baptism - it is of water and the Spirit just as Christ said.


9 posted on 02/19/2012 6:19:13 PM PST by vladimir998
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To: smvoice
What about Romans 6:4 leads you to believe that Paul is speaking of water baptism?

*******************************************

And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"
(Acts 8:36)

"Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
(Acts 10:47)
10 posted on 02/19/2012 6:23:48 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands
"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius..and I baptized also the household of Stephanas besides I know not whither I baptized any other. For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL..." 1 Cor. 1:14,16,17.

Hmmm. something DIFFERENT appears to be happening here. Baptism is NOT part of the gospel Paul is preaching. Water baptism, that is. As it was in Acts 8 and Acts 10, and Acts 1, and Matt. Mark, Luke and John.

Acts is a transitional Book. From Law to Grace. From a Kingdom of Believers to a Body of Believers. From Peter and the 11 to Paul. From water baptism to baptism BY the Holy Spirit INTO the Body of Christ.

11 posted on 02/19/2012 6:38:15 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: pastorbillrandles

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It is a public statement of that internal belief and faith. Historically it was in baptism that repentance and faith in Christ were proclaimed. Recognized as the first Christian act.

To understand the interpretation of baptism and its importance in your Christian walk, you have to know the historical background of it. It did not begin with the first century church, or at the time of Jesus. Undeniably some form of water immersion was required in Judaism going back to the Levitical cleansings of the Old Testament. It was Jews, not Christians John was baptizing, prior to Jesus stepping into the water.

Jesus’ baptism may be viewed as a complement and fulfillment of John the Baptist’s work. John declared to the crowds that he baptized in water, but the Messiah to come would baptize the people in the Holy Spirit and in fire

Baptism was an integral part of the overall experience of becoming a Christian in the earliest periods of the church. It was associated with being united with Christ.

I am in my 50’s and a Christian, but have never been baptized by water. But I have complete confidence that if I passed away tonight, Jesus would welcome me home. His dying on the cross for me is sufficient. When he said “It is Finished” that is what he meant.


12 posted on 02/19/2012 6:42:36 PM PST by NavyCanDo
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To: smvoice

I’ll deal with the question of Holy Spirit baptism at a later time. For now, I Corinthians 1:17—

It is sometimes claimed that Paul rejected any role of baptism in salvation when he wrote to the Corinthians in I Corinthians 1:17. He says in this passage:

“For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom,lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.”

I should be pointed out that Paul is not saying that he had not been authorized to baptize, or that baptism had no place in his ministry. Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ. When Christ gave the “Great Commission” to the original twelve apostles, he commanded them to baptize (Matthew 28:19-20). Paul himself did personally baptize some people:

“...I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...I did baptize also the household of Stephanus...” (I Corinthians 1:14,16)

One needs to realize that I Corinthians 1:17 is an idiomatic phrase. The words “not” and “but” are used in other places in a similar way. For example, in John 12:44 we read,

“And Jesus cried out and said, `He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.’”

Jesus is not saying that those who do believe in him do not believe in him. He is simply emphasizing that those who believe in him are not believing in him only, but also (or even especially) in God the Father.

In a similar case, in John 6:27, Jesus says,

“Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life...”

Jesus is not trying to tell the people that they should give up their jobs and no longer work for their food. In II Thessalonians 3:10 we are told just the opposite. Jesus is simply trying to impress upon the people that they should work not only for physical food, but also (or even especially) for spiritual food.

In I Corinthians 1:17, Paul was trying to tell the Corinthians that his primary purpose as an apostle was not to be the one who conducted the physical act of baptism. His primary purpose was to preach the gospel. His efforts would be successful regardless of whether he, or others, did the actual baptizing. He was sent not only to baptize, but also (or even especially) to preach the gospel.

Finally, I Corinthians 1:17 should be viewed in light of the context. Starting with verse ten, we read,

“I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, `I belong to Paul,’ or `I belong to Apollos,’ or `I belong to Cephas,’ or `I belong to Christ.’ Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius; lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanus. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)” (I Corinthians 1:10-16)

There was division in the church at Corinth. People divided themselves into groups, at least partly, it seems, on the basis of who taught and baptized them. It is in this context that he says that he was glad that he had baptized only a few, and that he was not sent to baptize. Paul did not say that he was glad that only a few had been baptized, but that he was glad that he had personally done the baptizing in only a few instances.


13 posted on 02/19/2012 6:44:50 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: vladimir998

Baptism is not grace. It is an outward act that shows an inward change. It is the individual’s

1) Belief - but not only belief as the demons believe and tremble.

plus

2) Repentance - a turning away from their sin

plus

3) Grace - Acceptance of Jesus as their lord and savior enables God’s grace to free us from sin

The thief that died with Jesus on the cross was not baptized, yet he went to paradise. It is not the act itself that saves. But it is an outward expression and a declaration to the world of the inward change.


14 posted on 02/19/2012 6:58:38 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

In a discussion of this sort, there are various issues to be dealt with. I will try to address things one at a time. For now, let me address the question of the thief on the cross:

One of the examples often given to support the view that baptism is not for the remission of sins is the example of the thief on the cross. This incident is recorded in Luke 23:39-43:

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, `Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!’ But the other rebuked him, saying, `Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.’ And he said, `Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.’ And he said to him, `Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’”

This is given as an example of salvation without baptism. Two points need to be made, however. First of all, none of us can know whether the thief had been baptized before or not. John the Baptist had been baptizing a few years earlier. Matthew 3:5-6 says:

“Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan...”

Who can say that the thief was not one of these?

Whether the thief was baptized or not, though, is just a side issue in the argument. The main point is that the thief lived and died under the Old Covenant. Today we live under the New Covenant—the New Testament. Under the Old Testament law, people were commanded to offer animal sacrifices and do a variety of other things that we are not required to do today. Likewise we are commanded to do things today that those under the Old Covenant were not commanded to do. Failure to distinguish between the authority of the two covenants can cause a wide variety of religious error (e.g., sabbath day worship). People need to realize that the Old Covenant is not in effect today as a legal system.

“...by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross...” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“...having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:13-14)

The Old Covenant with its written code was taken away with Christ’s death on the cross. The book of Hebrews speaks at length about the authority of the Old Covenant being replaced by that of the New:

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: `The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying “Know the Lord,” for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.’

“In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:7-13)

“When he said above, `Thou hast neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings’ (these are offered according to the law), then he added, `Lo, I have come to do thy will.’ He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Hebrews 10:8-10)

The Old Testament is not our authority in religion for today. Likewise, the New Testament was not the authority for those living in Old Testament times. The New Testament did not go into effect until after the death of Jesus.

Today, if a person makes out a will, or testament, that will does not go into effect until after the person dies. For example, if I make out a will and promise to leave John Doe $100, the will does not go into effect until after I am dead.

“For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.” (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Mr. Doe could not legally come wrest his money from me before my death.

Not only is the death of a person necessary for a will to go into effect, but there is usually a brief period during which the will is probated. For example, if I will John Doe $100, and he hears on the news that I have died, he cannot come over and break into my house and start looking for the money. Likewise, the church came into being, and the New Testament came into force, on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

The thief on the cross may well have been a case of salvation apart from baptism. But that has no more relevance for us today than the story of Abraham, or of Moses, or of David. They were not baptized either, but they did not live under the New Covenant. Zaccheus is sometimes given as a case of salvation apart from baptism, but the same situation applies there. He was not living under the New Covenant.


15 posted on 02/19/2012 7:08:20 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: NavyCanDo

Baptism is essential unto salvation.

Can you show me one instance in the book of Acts where one was saved without Baptism? From the example of Christ being baptized, to the Great Commission, to the Acts of the Apostles, to the letters to Rome and Corinth and on and on... Baptism is there. It is essential.

I know what you’re thinking. Baptism is a work. And we are not saved by works. But look, Baptism is no more a “work” than is confessing or believing. In all the different teachings on salvation, there is no more item mentioned more than baptism. If you combine all the things necessary for salvation, baptism leads the list of things to do.

Do not put it off. Be truly born again “of water and the
Spirit”, and make your own personal death, burial and resurrection.


16 posted on 02/19/2012 7:25:34 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This mean Liberals and/or Libertarians (Same Thing) NO LIBS.))
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands
But that has no more relevance for us today than the story of Abraham, or of Moses, or of David

I consider that to be very much what is wrong with much of Christianity today. It is an attitude of taking scissors to the Bible. It is the belief that we can ignore parts of the Bible and rely on our own wisdom instead of the Word.

Further, Jesus often quote scripture (Old Testament) so we know it is relevant. To assume otherwise would be to assume that your understanding of God, and his plan for mankind is greater than Jesus. A very dangerous position in my opinion.

17 posted on 02/19/2012 7:26:12 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: RetiredArmy

I never said it did, did you actually read the article? By th way the title comes from I peter.All I am trying to do is give the understanding of what Peter is saying, and Mark.


18 posted on 02/19/2012 7:27:50 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: smvoice

There is ONE baptism. That is by the Holy Spirit. I can toss you in the lake a hundred times, but it will not save you. It takes the work of the Cross. Death, burial and resurrection to save. Not being dunked in the water. Simple as that.


19 posted on 02/19/2012 7:30:46 PM PST by RetiredArmy (POLITICIANS: Promise the moon. Deliver the shaft.)
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To: Vendome
I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Your argument is with Peter, not me
20 posted on 02/19/2012 7:30:46 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: RetiredArmy

Amen, RetiredArmy. AMEN


21 posted on 02/19/2012 7:32:26 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: pgyanke

The four gospels are to Jews. Not to Gentiles. Grace is through God’s free gift. That is through the Cross and ONLY through the Cross. 1 Cor 15: 1-4 is the Gospel. Paul makes that plain. I won’t argue the point with you. You have your belief and I have mine. Mine are in the Cross. The Death, Burial and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ and His free gift of salvation and grace. I put my faith in that. Not in doing a public profession of faith by being dunked in the water, which I was by the way, but that was only AFTER I accepted the Gift, Believed in HIM and the Cross of Salvation.


22 posted on 02/19/2012 7:34:00 PM PST by RetiredArmy (POLITICIANS: Promise the moon. Deliver the shaft.)
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To: RetiredArmy

Who ever said that being dunked in a lake would save you? Obviously the cross of Jesus is the only grounds for salvation. I doubt you read the article.


23 posted on 02/19/2012 7:36:06 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: taxcontrol

I love the Old Testament. There are incredible amounts of great insights and comfort to be gained from it.

But it is for our learning, not for our law. We are under the New Covenant today.

Not taking scissors to the Bible also means not ignoring Scripture that says that the Old Covenant has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15; Hebrews 10:9), cancelled (Colossians 2:14), and is obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13).


24 posted on 02/19/2012 7:38:05 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: smvoice

Are you one of those who do not believe the gospels apply directly to you?


25 posted on 02/19/2012 7:39:29 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles

I’ve read it all pastorbillrandles. I have read it for over 55 years. I study it every night. I spend a minimum of three hours daily in the Book and His Word. You are judging what you do not know anything about. I put my faith in Jesus Christ and the Cross. My argument is that water baptism does not save anyone. Only faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross. You can go argue you beliefs elsewhere. You are not going to change my mind about my beliefs. They are in Christ. His cross. His death, burial and resurrection. Good day to you.


26 posted on 02/19/2012 7:39:47 PM PST by RetiredArmy (POLITICIANS: Promise the moon. Deliver the shaft.)
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To: pastorbillrandles

Which gospel?


27 posted on 02/19/2012 7:46:19 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: RetiredArmy
I am not trying to changie your mind about your beliefs, I only asked if you actually read the article before you commented on it. I commend you for 55 years of "reading it all" but that wasn't what I was talking about. You don't really have a problem with me, all I am doing is quoting the Apostle Peter-The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Sir you don't have to send me off elsewhere to "argue my beliefs", I am a strong contender with you that Christ's death and resurrection, is the only way to be saved. I am merely quoting one of his disciples.
28 posted on 02/19/2012 7:46:55 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: smvoice

the four gospels, Matthew,Mark,Luke and John- did you not say the gospels are for Jews only? perhaps I misread you.


29 posted on 02/19/2012 7:48:30 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: RetiredArmy

nor did I judge you sir, I asked if you read my article, not if yu read the Bible. We could have a better conversation if we would not be so defensive.


30 posted on 02/19/2012 7:52:37 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: RetiredArmy
I'm not going to go revival on you here. I will take a moment, though, to point out one simple point of fact...

The four gospels are to Jews. Not to Gentiles.

Actually...

Matthew wrote to the Jews.
Mark was targeted toward the Romans.
Luke seems to have targeted the Greeks.
John wrote to a gentile, universal, Christian audience.

31 posted on 02/19/2012 7:52:45 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: smvoice

Hey sorry it was retiredarmy that said that not you- forgive me


32 posted on 02/19/2012 7:54:08 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands

Yet you would disregard as irrelevant one of the powerful examples of God’s love, mercy and grace, given to one who did not deserve it. An act so important, that God who inspired the word, made sure that as one of Jesus’ last acts on this earth was recorded for all believers to see.


33 posted on 02/19/2012 7:56:40 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: pastorbillrandles

Baptism (by water) is simply an outward act of an already inward transformation.


34 posted on 02/19/2012 8:01:48 PM PST by sigzero
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To: pastorbillrandles
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I PREACHED unto you, which also YE HAVE RECEIVED, and wherein YE STAND, by which also YE ARE SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures; and that HE WAS BURIED, and that HE ROSE AGAIN the third day according to the scriptures." 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

This is the gospel that saves. It is found in 1 Corinthians. Not in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.

As far as the four gospels of Matt. Mark, Luke and John, they are a record of Christ's earthly ministry. "But he answered her and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." And, Jesus commanded the twelve to "go NOT into the way of the Gentiles" Matt. 10:5. Now He said these things for a reason. How do you answer this?

35 posted on 02/19/2012 8:02:55 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: RetiredArmy

“Only faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Is that all that is necessary for salvation? I understand you reject the commands and examples to be baptized. Do you also reject the commands and examples to believe? How about the commands and examples to confess with thy mouth? How about repentance? How about hearing the word in the first place.

You seem to cut out a lot of fundamentals.


36 posted on 02/19/2012 8:06:01 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This mean Liberals and/or Libertarians (Same Thing) NO LIBS.))
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To: taxcontrol

Irrelevant? Not at all. But its relevance does not include using it as an example that baptism is not for the remission of sins today.

God told Noah to build an ark of gopher wood. That has relevance. But its relevance doesn’t mean that we should build one as well. There were various sacrificies offered under the Old Covenant. These are relevant today, but their relevance does include our following that example. We are under the New Covenant.


37 posted on 02/19/2012 8:10:31 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands
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To: NavyCanDo

NavyCanDo wrote:
“I am in my 50’s and a Christian, but have never been baptized by water. But I have complete confidence that if I passed away tonight, Jesus would welcome me home. His dying on the cross for me is sufficient. When he said “It is Finished” that is what he meant.”

I’m sorry, but I am truly having trouble understanding your thinking. Whereas I too have complete confidence in John 19:30, “It is finished,” I also have complete confidence in Matthew 28:18ff., wherein Christ tells me that disciples are made through baptism and being taught to observe all that He commanded. Do you simply dismiss Matthew 28:18ff? Did not the same One, who alone is Lord and Savior, say both things?


38 posted on 02/19/2012 8:15:47 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: smvoice
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name John 20:30-31
39 posted on 02/19/2012 8:16:36 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: RetiredArmy
There is ONE baptism. That is by the Holy Spirit. I can toss you in the lake a hundred times, but it will not save you. It takes the work of the Cross. Death, burial and resurrection to save. Not being dunked in the water. Simple as that.

That is the Baptism John The Baptist spoke of. It is the blood Baptism of Jesus Christ the Baptism that comes the second of salvation by surrendering your soul too Christ. That alone is the Baptism that removes sin and saves. One may sense it or may not but it happens.

It took me a year maybe longer before I was Baptized. Big church and lots of people and I was about 12 or 13. My dad accepted Christ at about age 16 and didn't get baptized till in his 20's sometime. He accepted Christ walking on one of his favorite hunting spots. He sat down with a pocket NT and signed the profession of faith in the back of it and left it where he sat. GOD works in each person different as too where he leads them and in the time frames of steps they take.

Too anyone who feels they should be Baptized yes they should do so as it is The Holy Spirit likely leading the way. The same as going before the church in public profession. If the spirit says do it then Obey. These calls do not necessarily happen within minutes, days, weeks, or sometimes years of each other. For man to push someone into it when the Spirit has not lead them there is wrong. It accomplishes nothing.

40 posted on 02/19/2012 8:19:08 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: sigzero

True but it is much more than that...including the command of our Lord, the justification of God(Luke 7), among other things. All I have done in the title of my article was to quote the Apostle Peter,


41 posted on 02/19/2012 8:19:13 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles
??? That's your answer as to why Christ said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel? And commanded His disciples to go not into the way of the Gentiles?

What about the scripture you gave me would make me believe that I, as a Gentile, would have "life through his name" during His earthly ministry?

42 posted on 02/19/2012 8:31:16 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: All
Folks, this thread is the reason Christ gave us a Church with the authority to interpret and teach Scripture. Each post here is an authoritative take on the meaning of Scripture... and nearly all are at odds. By what right and authority do you settle such disputes? Dumb question... you don't. You simply make a new church to follow your particular view of Scripture. No one could convincingly argue that this is unity of faith, as Christ prayed for us.

I pray for the day you all come home to your Mother.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

43 posted on 02/19/2012 9:05:55 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: smvoice

No, That is John’s answer as to why he wrote his gospel, not just to the Jews but to all of us. Thank you Jesus for the gospels.


44 posted on 02/19/2012 9:17:37 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: smvoice

**”I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius..and I baptized also the household of Stephanas besides I know not whither I baptized any other. For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL...” 1 Cor. 1:14,16,17. Hmmm. something DIFFERENT appears to be happening here.**

So Paul openly admits to baptizing souls in Corinth, but then says that God sent him not to baptize. Nothing is different from what happened in Acts chaps 2,8,10,and 19. He was admonishing some souls that were boasting of the name of the great preachers that had baptized them instead of the name of who was crucified for them. He also baptized at least a dozen in Ephesus. He later wrote an epistle to the saints (already born again) at Ephesus. That what all of the epistles are; letters to those souls in already established churches, instructing them on how to serve God.

**Acts is a transitional Book.**

Acts is the historical record of the beginning of the church, what it taught, and places it spread to. Jesus Christ commanded “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in HIS NAME among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM.” (Luke 24:47) This command is initially enacted in Acts 2, with Peter’s sermon culminating with verses 38 and 39.


45 posted on 02/19/2012 9:46:15 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: pastorbillrandles
1 Peter 3:20,21 (NAS)

20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is making an analogy between the great flood and baptism . It seems to me that he is using the outward action of baptism as a symbol of inward belief. This is why he mediately clarifies what he means when he says "now baptism saves you."

Where Peter writes "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" he is describing the physical/outward action of baptism. Its not the physical act of baptism but the "appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" that saves. The physical act of baptism is the outward expression of the inward belief.

So rather than confuse us as to whether or not water baptism is required for salvation, this scripture should help us gain a better understanding of what salvation is. As Nee put it:

"Thus salvation is not so much a personal question of sins forgiven or of hell avoided. It is to be seen rather in terms of a system from which we come out. When I am saved, I make my exodus out of one whole world and my entry into another. I am saved now out of that whole organized realm which Satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God."(Watchman Nee,”Love Not The World”,Christian Literature Crusade)

This is just my understanding of 1 Peter 3:21. I think we are in agreement on this but to be honest, its a little hard to understand exactly what you believe based on this article.

46 posted on 02/19/2012 9:56:13 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: pgyanke
Folks, this thread is the reason Christ gave us a Church with the authority to interpret and teach Scripture.

So, I can try to understand scripture for myself and risk being wrong or I can accept the Roman interpretation and not run any risk of being wrong but rather have complete assurance of being wrong. I'll take my chances where I at least have a chance.

47 posted on 02/19/2012 10:07:51 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: Tramonto
Thanks Tramonto, and I agree that Peter is making an analogy of the great flood and of baptism. As Noah was saved out of "the world that was" in his day, the person who puts their faith in Jesus is saved out of "the world" , which is as doomed as Noah's ever was.

from the article-I know that it is faith in Jesus’ blood that has procured the pardon and status of righteousness that I needed in order to “flee the wrath” of a righteous and holy God! What is hard about understanding that? That is what I believe about the gospel.

There need be no confusion, for neither Peter nor any apostle, and certainly not my article, made water baptism a requirement for salvation. The article is a Meditation on what Peter meant when he said that Baptism saves, and what Mark meant when he said "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved".

The conclusion? That the use of the word "saves" or "saved" refers to the christian's exodus out of this world. I didn't intend it, but this sure stimulated a good discussion! Thanks-

48 posted on 02/19/2012 11:15:39 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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To: pastorbillrandles

No pastor, I don’t believe that is correct, in the literal sense.

Perhaps your article says as much.

I was in a hurry to get to a party and just wanted to make a note that would remind me this article is important.

I am going to read your article with an open mind but, I assume you are of the Protestant faith as only a Mormon or Catholic believe in the literal Baptism completing your salvation and membership into their church or doctrines.

I have no argument with the Catholic faith. I don’t believe their requirements for salvation must include Baptism. But that is a small issue for me.

Mormonism, with it’s polytheistic, transhuman ascendancy is a totally irrelevant religion for its obvious self indulgent arrogance.

I will read your article and attempt to reply without a Concordance and from memory as best as possible.


49 posted on 02/20/2012 12:39:07 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: pastorbillrandles

So just quickly I thought of the answers to your reply.

I Peter 3:21 wasn’t a bad attempt but when I started to consider why and how we are saved, I also had to consider the context of the quote and could it be supported anywhere else.

On the latter it cannot, at least in the context of your concern.

The salient or key issue is how does one achieve salvation or arrive at it.

The 1st thought I had was of the three great parables in Mathew 13 “Pearl of Great Price”. I am sure you know it well, almost any Christian will be familiar with it.

We cannot commit any act to obtain salvation, it is given by God through Jesus Christ.

If we buy, barter or commit to anything extra then salvation would cease being a gift of God.

In fact, Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins with his life and we have been told there is but one 0thing we can do to receive his salvation:

The only act we can commit is the change in spirit and with humility come before God and accept his gift.

That’s it. No other act is required and no other act can be used as value to God for your salvation lest Jesus Christ’s act means nothing and our salvation is not true.

No Pastor, my baptism is an outward expression and witness to others of my changed spirit. The act of baptism is to show others I have literally been washed, died of my old life and risen in my new life.


50 posted on 02/20/2012 12:58:53 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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