Posted on 02/19/2012 7:10:38 PM PST by RnMomof7
CC
Come to think of it, just about every protestant denomination requires you to be baptised as well. It appears to me that you just as much to disagree about with your fellow protestants as you do with the Catholic Church.
"They cant hear me. How do you propose that they can hear me while in heaven? How do you propose that one saint can hear the millions of prayers from Catholics across the globe all happening at the same time? Do the angels deliver the prayers one by one? How many angels and how much time do you suppose that requires? Even if Heaven exists outside of space and time, and so timing has no meaning... certainly, even in heaven, they would be quite busy."
No offense meant, but I find this part of your post quite ludicrous. This is a akin to how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Those glorified in heaven don't face the limits a physical being on earth. You worldview has no correlation whatsoever to that of the saints. The angels don't have to commute back and forth from heaven carrying prayers one at a time. They don't get tired. It doesn't keep them busy. Our fallen perspective is nothing compared to that of the glorified saints.
You make a few other points which I'll address later, if I have time.
Sure you will. You posted to this thread, so you have a dog in the fight. And, you still cannot read the text. Thommas said the text does not say the assembly that Christ was going to "build" was Peter. You smeared the edges to make it come out right, a common malady of the RCCs. They need all kinds of props...other than Jesus. The believers in Christ don't need Rome's trappings. I surely hope you are a brother in Christ, but that trust in Rome is what we are trying to disabused you of.
Problem is; that deposit of faith wasn't deposited by God...You can't mangle, twist and pervert the scriptures like your religion does and convince or dupe born again bible believing Christians into believing that the Holy Spirit has anything to do with your religion...Other than to condemn it...
It's pretty good hype tho for those who don't and never will darken the pages of God's Holy word, the Scriptures...
I doubt that...How can you understand the game when it's clear that you never even read the instructions...
Scripture is very clear that Jesus established a Church with binding authority and that it's heirarchical in nature. Nowhere does it state that the apostles were to put together a how-to manual for future generations. I understand the need of some folks to debate which is the true Church Christ established. But to claim that he didn't establish a Church with authority is simply not scriptural. And Paul tells Timothy (1 Tm 3:15) that the Church (not scripture alone) is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth."
If you bother to diagram that sentence, it's clear that God is the pillar and ground of the truth...
But no, scripture is clear that the 'church' is a called out local assembly of believers...If you study the word church in the scriptures, it will remove all doubt from an honest person...
BTW: Good to see you back!
As a former sola scriptura Christian, I respectfully disagree. There is much that has to be taken loosely or ignored entirely. Real Presence, confession, anointing of the sick, and forbidding remarriage are just a few that come to mind.
Go in peace, My brother in Christ
Sounds like good advice :) I wish peace to all on this thread as well. The Lord prayed that we'd all be one. May it one day be so.
I really have no desire to enter this fever swamp but your claim is untrue. Completely and utterly false. See for example:
http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/glossary.shtml#s
I tend towards the Humpty-Dumpty explanation as well.
1 Peter 2:1-8
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the wordthe catechism, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the LordPeter.
As Living Stones
4 And coming to Himme, Peter as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrificessacraments acceptable to God through Jesus ChristMary, Queen of Heaven. 6 For this is contained in Scriptureoral traditions:
BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIMPETER WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone and his name is Peter,
8 and,
A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE;
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the wordRome, and to this doom they were also appointed.
"Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church." --Bishop Fulton Sheen.
You've been shown many times on this forum that what you think of the Church and what the Church actually is are two entirely different things. I have no interest in mixing it up with you today. I'll simply note that you are wrong...
“Come to think of it, just about every protestant denomination requires you to be baptised as well. It appears to me that you just as much to disagree about with your fellow protestants as you do with the Catholic Church.”
It is you who is ignorant here. To be baptized is not a necessary requirement for salvation, and it is not preached anywhere that I know that it is required for salvation. For Catholics, if you are not baptized, even a young child, you go to limbo. Even if you are baptized, you can still wind up in purgatory to burn away your sins that Jesus, apparently, did not handle on His own. If you do not go to mass, you are also in danger of a mortal sin. But if you wear a brown scapular, or if you do this or do that, or if you say a hail mary... well, only good things can happen, right?
But Christ does not require it.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
“No offense meant, but I find this part of your post quite ludicrous. This is a akin to how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Those glorified in heaven don’t face the limits a physical being on earth. You worldview has no correlation whatsoever to that of the saints. The angels don’t have to commute back and forth from heaven carrying prayers one at a time. They don’t get tired. It doesn’t keep them busy. Our fallen perspective is nothing compared to that of the glorified saints.
You make a few other points which I’ll address later, if I have time.”
Only God is omnipresent, and omniscient. A human soul does not possess these abilities, even in an exalted state, but you assume that they do in order to satisfy Roman tradition.
This thread has helped me make a decision. I was considering whether to donate to FR. After reading the bigotry here and on other threads, I’ve decided not to. I’m all for good-willed discussion. But threads like this are intended to promote bigotry. It isn’t just hatred toward Catholics. The same sentiments are expressed toward LDS and muslims on other threads. A site that condones bigotry isn’t one I’m comfortable donating to. Or wasting more time reading. Oh well ... back to your regularly scheduled Catholic bashing.
Apollo5600, “It is you who is ignorant here.”
My rebuttal is quite simple. You and I are here debating this topic, each trying to convince the other of the other’s error. Certainly you are not saying that a true believer can never be in error about proper interpretation, are you? In fact, I would guess that you would even concede that all of us have an imperfect understanding of Scripture at times. Jesus, on the other hand, never had such an imperfect understanding. While we might without full understanding yet reap the benefits of our Lords perfection and sacrifice, that does NOT mean that we ourselves are perfect interpreters.
So a true believer never errors?
That’s silly. I assume you realize that the “Word” that you reference is not limited to the words of the Bible. Rather it is the English translation of the Greek logos. See the beginning of johns gospel. If you really believe he was only referring to the Bible when he referred to the Word/logos, that is a pitifully cramped and misleading interpretation.
God the Holy Spirit never errors.
Choose to accept Him through faith in Christ or not.
It’s a simple question that you can’t answer truthfully without compromising your deeply cherished beliefs. People go to great lengths with wild contorted explanations for something that should be (and is) pretty simple. God never intended for salvation to be beyond the understanding or reach of any human being.
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