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It May Look Good on Paper [Mormonism]
New York Times ^ | January 30, 2012 | Ian Williams

Posted on 02/27/2012 9:00:39 AM PST by greyfoxx39

..................Some of us who have experienced the Mormon life firsthand would rather choose a messy, colorful America.

While it's easy to be seduced by a church known for its practicality, its financial acumen and its commitment to both self-betterment and worldly outreach, I wouldn't buy the underwear just yet. Everything comes with a caveat.

-SNIP-

Mormons typically create their perfect world not by embracing the future, but by fetishizing the past. The very qualities America might want — prudence, thrift, even contentment — come at a price. The Mormon way is steadfastly patriarchal; women can't hold the priesthood, and are encouraged to be as procreative as possible. Their rigid concept of "family" owes more to the early 1950s than the 20-teens.

-SNIP-

A culture that walks in such tidy lockstep has the advantage of homogeneity, and will always look good on paper. It certainly works for my many cousins, whom I love. But some of us who have experienced the Mormon life firsthand would rather choose a messy, colorful America lurching forward without so many confines — every day and twice on Sunday.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: inman; lockstep; mormon; romney
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Millions and millions of dollars are spent on TV and radio ads, hundreds and hundreds of mormon propaganda websites provide a doctored version of mormon doctrine ( LDS Church vehemently denies the Trinity), videos are available "telling the story of Christ from a mormon viewpoint", 52,000 missionaries are out worldwide every day telling Christians their faith is false.

All this propaganda is aimed a swelling church rolls..and church coffers and is aimed at garnering more and more power for the mormon church.

A mormon in the White House would mean the virtual possession and control of the "holy grail" by a small minority (less than 2%) of US citizens.

No thanks.

1 posted on 02/27/2012 9:00:50 AM PST by greyfoxx39
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; Tennessee Nana; ...

Ping


2 posted on 02/27/2012 9:06:34 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If mormonism is Christianity, then "off" is a TV channel.)
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To: greyfoxx39

i posted this on another thread...so call me a spammer, i don’t care

it bears repeating

You would think that Utah, whose population is between 2/3 to 3/4 LDS depending on who you ask, should be one of our most peaceful, family oriented states in America, with such a preponderance of pious people in it.

Think Again...

UTAH’S 1998-2008 REVIEW (see below):

CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT
In 2005, Utah had 32,203 total referrals for child abuse and neglect. Of those, 21,052 reports were referred for investigation. 7
In 2005, 8,173 children were substantiated or indicated as abused or neglected in Utah, a rate of 17.7 per 1,000 children, and representing a 3.4% decrease from 2004. Of these children, 20.7% were neglected, 14.7% were physically abused, and 19.3% were sexually abused. 8
In 2005, 10 children died as a result of abuse or neglect in Utah. 9
In 2005, 2,285 children in Utah lived apart from their families in out-of-home care, compared with 2,108 children in 2004. In 2005, 22.5% of the children living apart from their families were age 5 or younger, and 27.4% were 16 or older. 10
Of the children in out-of-home care in 2005, 63.5% were white, 4.7% black, 22.5% Hispanic, 5.7% American Indian/Alaskan Native, and 3.5% children of other races and ethnicities. 11
*****************************************************************************************************************
Divorces per 1,000 Population Utah-4.60 MA-2.40 NY -3.20 NJ-3.0

Murder per 100,000 Pop. Utah-3.90 NH-1.70 IO-1.70 ND-0.90

Rape per 100,000 Pop. Utah-42.70 NY -23.70 CA-33.40 VA-27.20

*Source US Census Bureau

Antidepressant drugs are prescribed in Utah more often than in any other state, at a rate nearly twice the national average. Other states with high antidepressant use were Maine and Oregon. Utah’s rate of antidepressant use was twice the rate of California and nearly three times the rates in New York and New Jersey, the study showed. Few here question the veracity of the study, which was a tabulation of prescription orders, said Dr. Curtis Canning, president of the Utah Psychiatric Assn. “In the LDS church, there is a social expectation and women suppression with the males dominating the females who are expected to put on a mask, say ‘Yes’ to everything that comes at her and hide the misery and pain. It’s called the ‘Mother of Zion’ syndrome. The study did not break down drug use by sex. But according to statistics from the National Institute of Mental Health, about twice as many women as men suffer from depressive disorders.

Discussion of the issue inevitably falls along Utah’s traditional fault lines. Some suggest that Utah’s unique Mormon culture—70% of the state’s population belongs to the church—requires perfection and the public presentation of a happy face, whatever may be happening privately. The argument goes that women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are beset by particular pressures and are not encouraged to acknowledge their struggles or suppression. “Look around, you can easily find people who take them. I think it’s the cultural environment,” said Helen Wright, whose three grown children also take antidepressants. “Most men here would just as soon their wives take pills than bother to delve into the problems, and maybe find out they might have something to do with the problems.” Utah also leads the nation in the use of narcotic painkillers such as codeine and morphine-based drugs, the study found. “It’s like HappyValley here,” Cindy Mann said, describing the SaltLakeValley. “It’s a scary place sometimes. People don’t talk about their problems. Everything is always rosy. That’s how we got ourselves into this mess—we’re good at ignoring things.”

Salt Lake Tribune, Nov 23, 1998—A9

FBI Report: Crime Falls Nationally, But Climbs Again in Utah

As the nation celebrates a six-year decrease in serious crime, Utah’s crime rate went up—again.

An FBI report released Sunday showed that serious violent and property crimes went down 3 percent nationally. But crime in Utah went up 3.8 percent in 1997, continuing a four-year-trend.

Not only is the state’s crime rate climbing, but more Utahns on average are victims of crime.

Nationally, an average of 4,923 out of 100,000 are affected by crime. In Utah, the number is 5,661 people— 13 percent higher than the national rate.

Utah was one of 15 states whose crime rates increased in 1997.

Florida had the highest rate at 7,272 crimes per 100,000 people. West Virginia was lowest with 2,469 crimes per 100,000 people. . .

In Salt lake City, 11,969 people out of 100,000 were victims of crime in 1997. . .

Report details scope of home violence
Utah’s rate of females murdered by males tops the national average

Salt lake Tribune, Feb 17, 2004
“...The 2004 Utah Domestic Violence Annual Report, created by the state Domestic Violence Cabinet Council...In 2001, the report notes, Utah’s rate of females murdered by males in one-on-one incidents was 23% higher than the corresponding national rate.”

Utah: Salt Lake City

Nearly half of the 131 women killed between 1994 and 1999 in Utah were slain by husbands or boyfriends, according to a report released by state health department officials. They urged judges, prosecutors and clergy to pay more attention to the signs of domestic violence and to intervene before it escalates. USA Today

The New York Times clearly illustrates a recurring problem within the Mormon Church–child abuse. Child abuse is consistently higher in Utah than in the nation as a whole. It is a blight on Mormonism. Utah social workers have been quoted as being “blackly pessimistic” about the problem in their state.

All of this flies in the face of the projected image of Mormonism as a society which places the family at the highest level of its concern.

Of course Mormon authorities love children and want what’s best for them. The failure of Mormonism stems from its hidebound structure. This is the religion of polygamy, patriarchy, and Blood Atonement. Such a culture simply doesn’t have the ability to wave a wand of psychobabble over the Church and make everything right. Mormon social problems are systemic.

One of the worst areas of offense in Mormonism is uncovered in the following article. This story is repeated over and over again as the good old boys have their way with women and children in the ashes of Brigham Young’s Mormonism


Sex Abuse Lawsuit Is Settled By Mormons for $3 Million

By Gustav Niebuhr
New York Times Sep. 5, 2001, A-14

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disclosed yesterday that it would pay $3 million to settle a suit by an Oregon man who said he was sexually abused as a child by a church member. The suit said Mormon officials had known well in advance of that abuse that the accused man had also faced child molesting allegations before.

The case is unusual not only because the church disclosed the amount of the settlement, in advance of news conferences by the plaintiffs’ lawyers today, but also because it centers on alleged abuse by a man who held no ministerial or leadership role. That man died in 1995.

In an interview, Von G. Keetch, a Salt Lake City lawyer representing the church, said it strongly believed that the case ‘’lacked merit’’ and had settled only out of concern that the litigation, already a decade old, could continue for years more, at high cost.

Mr. Keetch said the decision was made after a number of rulings against the church by a county judge presiding over the case in Portland. Among the rulings were that the church could be held liable for the conduct of one member against another, and that the plaintiff could argue that the abuser was a clergyman because he held the title of high priest, which the church describes as a common lay designation.

The settlement follows by two weeks the disclosure of another settlement by a religious institution in a sexual abuse case. In that instance, two Roman Catholic dioceses in Southern California said they had paid $5.2 million to a man who maintained that as a high school student a decade ago, he was molested by a priest.

The Oregon suit was filed in December 1998 by a Portland man, Jeremiah Scott, who eventually sought $1.5 billion in damages from the church. He accused its authorities of withholding knowledge from his family that another member, Franklyn Curtis, had previously been accused of molesting children.

His lawyer, David Slader, said Mr. Scott was abused in 1991, the year he turned 11, after his mother invited Mr. Curtis to live with the family. Mr. Curtis, who was 88 and had been living in a group home, was a member of the same congregation as the Scotts.

Before bringing Mr. Curtis into her home, Mr. Slader said, Mrs. Scott sought advice from a local Mormon bishop, who advised the family against it because it would be too much work, but who did not inform them of the earlier accusations.

Mr. Slader noted that Mr. Curtis had been previously excommunicated after being accused of molesting children. But when he came to live with the Scotts, his membership had been restored and he held the title of high priest. He had not been criminally charged with abuse at that point, but later pleaded guilty to molesting Mr. Scott, Mr. Slader said.

‘’It’s the institution that knew,’’ Mr. Slader said, referring to church authorities. ‘’A church,’’ he added, ‘’owes a very, very special and high duty to the children of its parishioners, the children whose souls it has taken responsibility for.’’

Mr. Keetch, the lawyer for the church, quoted the bishop who advised the Scotts as saying in a deposition that he had known of no abuse accusations against Mr. Curtis. Mr. Keetch said Mr. Curtis had been excommunicated in the 1980’s in Pennsylvania, where he lived before moving back to Oregon. The decision to excommunicate, Mr. Keetch said, followed another Oregon bishop’s notifying church authorities in Pennsylvania that Mr. Curtis had been accused of having ‘’inappropriately touched a child’’ in an Oregon congregation different from the one where he and the Scotts were later members together. To have excommunicated Mr. Curtis over his conduct would indicate it WAS a serious offense and that it was known to the church who keep meticulous records on every member.

Mr. Curtis was readmitted to membership ‘’after a fairly lengthy period of repentance,’’ Mr. Keetch said, but never had any supervisory position over Mr. Scott and in fact had no leadership position at all. According to the church, the title of high priest is bestowed on Mormon men in good standing over the age of 40.

Mr. Keetch said he believed there was ‘’no church that does more either to protect children or to provide assistance to children’’ who have been abused.— This is a TOTAL LIE! The LDS leadership as the attitude that “right or wrong we have the final say” as quoted by Oscar McKonkie Jr. attorney for Gordon Hinckley and that women and children have no rights –as indicative by the belief and current practice of polygamy and polygamous sealings in the LDS temples of men to multiple wives in cases of divorce or death.

Utah Rape Statistics—2003

Rape Crime in Utah Well Above National Average

A federal report shows that one in five adult women in Utah—or a total of 157,000 women in the state—has been forcibly raped at least once in her lifetime. The report comes from the South Carolina-based National Violence Against Women Prevention Research Center, giving Utah the top spot in the continental United States for its estimated percentage of rape victims. “Our findings clearly demonstrate the fact that Utah has a substantial rape problem,” said the report from the research group, which was established and is partly funded by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

“I was shocked to see this,” said Jamee Roberts, executive director of the Salt Lake City-based RapeRecoveryCenter. “I knew we were bad; I had no idea we were this bad. We should be hanging our heads in shame.” She added that the numbers are reliable and can be trusted. Only Alaska (20.9% of its women raped versus 20.6% in Utah compared to 13.4% of all women nationally) has a higher rate in the United States. The estimates are said to be conservative because they do not include the cases of women who have experienced attempted rape; rapes where the women were unconscious or impaired by drugs or alcohol; or statutory rape where there was no force. (Salt LakeTribune, 7/12/03)

Utah has highest rate of “Food Insecurity”
Child poverty rate up
Utah leads nation in bankruptcy

Excerpted from:
Salt LakeTribune
11-24-03 B1

“Job growth reported in media, but where is it? Utahns wonder”

According to the Utah Department of Agriculture, Utah has the highest rate of “food insecurity”–a measure that reports the number of people who worry where there next meal is coming from–in the nation.

The US Census Bureau reports that the overall poverty rate in Utah jumped 1.1 percent between 2001 and 2002. Utah was one of eight states the Census Bureau found had a “significant change” in its poverty rate.

Movement of the state’s child poverty rate was even more staggering. In 2002, Utah’s child poverty rate jumped 4.3 percent, according to the Census Bureau. Only Massachusetts had a more dramatic increase in the number of children living in poverty…

Utah’s foreclosure rate is almost double that of the national average. The only alternative [for some people] to save their home is] filing for bankruptcy–another inauspicious category in which Utah leads the nation.

Utah is No 1 in Mortgage Fraud!

Utah has dismal rate of mortgage fraud. SLC is ranked No. 1 in early payment defaults

A company that monitors mortgage fraud activity nationwide has ranked the Salt Lake City metropolitan area as the worst in the country for potentially fraudulent home loans in default.

More than a third of the software programs installed in Utah homes and businesses are illegal copies, providing the state with the highest piracy rate in the country, a new study shows.

Tuesday, October 30, 2001 USA Today

Utah:Salt Lake City – Sate officials said that domestic violence cases are climbing in Utah, unlike those in the nation overall. A U.S. Justice Department report showed that domestic violence against women in the USA fell by 41% between 1993 and 1999. Nearly 5,000 women and children stayed at Utah shelters last year, a 32% hike from 1999, according the Division of Child and Family Services.

UTAH’S CHILDREN 2008
Utah’s Children At a Glance

State Population 1 2,550,063
Population, Children Under 18 2 742,556
State Poverty Rate 3 9.3%
Poverty Rate, Children Under 18 4 12.6%
Poverty Rate, Children Ages 5-17 5 11.5%
Poverty Rate, Children Under 5 6 13.8%
All statistics are for 2006.

CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT
In 2005, Utah had 32,203 total referrals for child abuse and neglect. Of those, 21,052 reports were referred for investigation. 7
In 2005, 8,173 children were substantiated or indicated as abused or neglected in Utah, a rate of 17.7 per 1,000 children, and representing a 3.4% decrease from 2004. Of these children, 20.7% were neglected, 14.7% were physically abused, and 19.3% were sexually abused. 8
In 2005, 10 children died as a result of abuse or neglect in Utah. 9
In 2005, 2,285 children in Utah lived apart from their families in out-of-home care, compared with 2,108 children in 2004. In 2005, 22.5% of the children living apart from their families were age 5 or younger, and 27.4% were 16 or older. 10
Of the children in out-of-home care in 2005, 63.5% were white, 4.7% black, 22.5% Hispanic, 5.7% American Indian/Alaskan Native, and 3.5% children of other races and ethnicities.
****************************************************************


3 posted on 02/27/2012 9:15:45 AM PST by AnTiw1
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To: greyfoxx39

While I am not a Mormon and do not wish to be, the NYT criticizing them for their successful lifestyle is kind of empty when you look at the kind of sick, perverted, and demented lifestyles the NYT actually approves of.


4 posted on 02/27/2012 9:15:45 AM PST by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
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To: greyfoxx39

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.

They do NOT teach the truth about Jesus.

5 posted on 02/27/2012 9:15:56 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: greyfoxx39
This article from the New York Times is disgusting.

It is bigotry.

It is the same sort of stuff that used to be said about Catholics.

btw -- I am neither Catholic nor Mormon.

6 posted on 02/27/2012 9:17:46 AM PST by chs68
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To: MeganC
"While I am not a Mormon and do not wish to be, the NYT criticizing them for their successful lifestyle is kind of empty when you look at the kind of sick, perverted, and demented lifestyles the NYT actually approves of."

BINGO!

7 posted on 02/27/2012 9:19:45 AM PST by chs68
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To: chs68

When the NYSlimes does the same sort of article on the religion of peace then I will think about paying some attention to them.


8 posted on 02/27/2012 9:23:17 AM PST by Rytas
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To: greyfoxx39
Messiah: Behold The Lamb Of God

From the BYU website: "In a day when many scholars have reduced Christ to a historical or purely figurative being, this seven-part documentary series stands to affirm His divinity by reconciling the historical Christ with the Christ of religious tradition....Hardly, when according to the Prophet and leader of the mormon church it was all told from a Latter-day Saint perspective.

blasphemy Pictures, Images and Photos

Premortal Savior – Episode 1

Premortal Savior!

9 posted on 02/27/2012 9:30:59 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If mormonism is Christianity, then "off" is a TV channel.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how Catholics would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.”


10 posted on 02/27/2012 9:31:27 AM PST by SaxxonWoods (....The days are long, but the years are short.....)
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To: SaxxonWoods
I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how Catholics would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.”

Just scan the Religion Forum for Catholic threads. This is not one of them.

11 posted on 02/27/2012 9:33:17 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If mormonism is Christianity, then "off" is a TV channel.)
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To: AnTiw1

Copied and saved. Thank you.


12 posted on 02/27/2012 9:38:37 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If mormonism is Christianity, then "off" is a TV channel.)
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To: chs68
It is bigotry.

It is the same sort of stuff that used to be said about Catholics.

Is it bigotry or are you ignorant on the subject?

btw -- I am neither Catholic nor Mormon.

Well, that explains it. You'd better study up then.

13 posted on 02/27/2012 9:46:25 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: SaxxonWoods
I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how Catholics would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.”

How is the bread magical? Does it repel evil and bring good fortune like the Mormon undies? Does eating the bread help make you a god?

What is the purpose of the bread compared to the nature of the magic undies?

14 posted on 02/27/2012 9:51:15 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: SaxxonWoods

’ I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how Catholics would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.” ‘

i have not heard of supernatural powers associated with the consumption of the host from any Catholics in my recollection

as an ex-mormon i’ve heard plenty about the supernatural properties of temple garments, or ‘magic underwear’

went looking for corroboration and found a message board where mormons and ex-mormons were discussing “lds urban legends”...magic underwear stories, among others

enjoy

Mormons are fond of spreading “faith-promoting rumors.” Members so badly want for the church to be true, in the absence of any evidence they are prone to grab on to anything that might help promote that belief. Then that rumor gets repeated and embellished to the point where most actually believe it to be true. Here are my top ten, yours may differ.

1- The Smithsonian Institute uses the Book of Mormon in its research.
This one started over a hundred years ago and just won’t die. Periodically the Smithsonian Institute (and the National Geographical Society) sends notices to the church saying “please, please tell your people to stop calling us. We have never found any connection with your book and any archeology discovered in the Americas.”

2- Polygamy was needed in the early church because there was an overabundance of single women who needed husbands.
Not so! A check of every census record of Illinois and Utah, from 1840 through 1900 reveals that (like all western frontier locations) men outnumbered the women by a good margin.

3- The LDS church has no paid ministry.
This in true only at the local level through the stake presidency. The top 85 or 90 leaders (General Authorities) do quite well. They receive a salary, allowances, and also are paid as board members for the vast number of church-owned corporations. In the early history of the church, Joseph had a revelation that God desired “he should not labor” and in an act of nepotism, he named his dad the “patriarch,” authorizing him to charge a dollar a blessing. (today’s patriarchs receive no compensation)

4- The LDS church is the fastest growing church in the world.
It’s certainly fast growing, but if you are talking raw numbers, the Catholic church is probably growing fifty times as fast, simply from the birth rate alone. If you are talking percentages, the Assembly of God in Brazil went from almost zero to ten million in only four years! It took the LDS over 160 years to reach that level.

5- The reason the original LDS temple ceremony and the Masonic ritual were virtually identical was that they were both the original ceremonies of Solomon’s Temple.
Completely untrue! Secret ceremonies weren’t practiced in Solomon’s Temple, it was open. Masonic leaders will explain that when Masonry originated in the 16th century, few people could read or write, so it designed a ritual of skits and symbolism to convey its message, as was done in Solomon’s time. Within a few days after he became a Master Mason, Joseph simply copied the same ceremony for the Mormon Church.

6- The church name, “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,” is divinely inspired.
If it is, God sure fumbled around a good while before doling out a little inspiration. The original church name in 1830 was “Church of Christ.” In 1834 it was changed to “Church of the Latter Day Saints.” Then four years later, in 1838 it was again changed to its present name.

7- Joseph Smith made a great prophecy in 1842, the Rocky Mountain prophecy, by predicting the Mormons would come to the Rocky Mountains and become a mighty people.
Church historian Dean Jessee produced the original manuscript from History of the Church showing the authorship was in 1845, after Smith’s death. Then years later, after the Saints were in Utah, someone penciled “Rocky Mountains” into the document. Jessee was chastised for revealing this historical tidbit.

8- After Joseph Smith was killed, the apostles knew Brigham Young was the successor by his “transformation” into the image of Joseph.
All the apostles were requested to keep diaries, which are now historical documents. On this Aug. 8, 1844 meeting not a single one recorded it. It didn’t pop up as a folk legend until about twenty years later.

9- In the first year of the Mormon settlement in Utah, a plague of locusts (Mormon crickets) threatened to wipe out their crops. God responded with a “miracle”, sending an army of seagulls to devour the insects.
This one is true — however the miracle part is somewhat embellished. The locusts have a seven-year hibernation cycle, and unfortunately the early settlers hit it on the end of the seventh year. For mutual protection, they had made the mistake of planting all their fields together. Therefore, the locust attack was concentrated in one spot in the valley. And the seagulls, which by their fossil remains have been at the Great Salt Lake for over 2,000 years, simply enjoyed their every-seven-year feast. They still do — only now it’s spread over thousands of square miles. (2001 was a bad year, 2008 is next).

10- And for the last one, I want to collectively group thousands of “magic underwear” tales. You’ve got to hear some of these! When any TBM survives any accident, calamity, or near miss, the reason is always attributed to his/her wearing the holy drawers.
The reality is that safety records, medical records, and the observations of safety experts, paramedics and hospital emergency room personnel all show that Mormons have the same percentages of accidents per capita, and the same injury/death ratios as anybody else in the general population. But the imagined protection continues to make good fodder for monthly Testimony Meetings.

Subject: Re: Top Ten Mormon Urban Legends
Date: Aug 09 16:35
Author: notamo
Mail Address:


I’m not Mormon. What’s with the underwear?

Subject: Mormons wear secret, magic underwear.
Date: Aug 09 23:05
Author: Cheryl


They think it protects them from harm. It’s sounds strange because it is strange, but true!!!!!

Subject: Notamo....magic undies...
Date: Aug 09 17:28
Author: LAMANWASRIGHT


Magic undies are Mormon’s sacred undergarments, which are white, usually cotton or other material and are extremely unnattractive. They are long enough to keep women from wearing miniskirts, and cover enough arm skin to keep Mormon men and women from showing too much sexy arm. No joke.

They recieve these garments after going through a very amusing Temple ceremony. In different parts of the garments, there are symbols sewn into them, and each symbol means something sacred. Mormons are not allowed to talk about the ceremony outside the Temple, not even about the symbols. But many exmo’s here have been through the temple and I’m sure they would be glad to tell you alot more. I hope someone here provides you with links to pictures of the garmies for a good laugh!

LWR

Subject: Re: Top Ten Mormon Urban Legends
Date: Aug 09 17:29
Author: Percy
Mail Address:


There was a story going around several years ago that a tornado went through an area and wrecked many homes but a ward building was left standing.

There is also a story about two missionaries killed and shortly afterwards (1950’s I think) twin tornados came through the town and destroyed many buildings and killed alot of people. It was God’s revenge.

Subject: 30 more “urban” legends
Date: Aug 09 18:07
Author: PRAVDA
Mail Address:


My list:

1-Abraham wrote his biography upon papyrus and JS translated it into the Book of Abraham.

2-Ancient Inhabitants of the Americas, descendent of Jews wrote their stories in golden plates and JS translated them into the Book of Mormon.

3-There was a religious revival in Manchester, New York in 1820

4-Joseph Smith was a young man confused about religion. One day he went to pray and God and Jesus appeared to him and made him a prophet.

5-Angels and prophets came down from heaven in droves to instruct young Joseph in the prophetic arts.

6-Joseph was a man of unquestionable character and great faith.

7-The witnesses of the Book of Mormon saw actual golden plates with their physical eyes and touched them uncovered at the same time they were looking at them.

8-The witnesses of the Book of Mormon never denied their testimonies.

9-Professor Anton validated Joseph Smith’s translation of the Book of Mormon.

10-Joseph Looked at the plates while he translated them and dictated their contents to Oliver Cowdery, who sat next to him behind a curtain, to keep him from seeing the plates.

11-The BoM predicts Columbus’ discovery (or insert here any other alleged “prediction” — hindsight is not prophecy)

12-The mormons were persecuted for opposing slavery.

13-Brigham Young was firm, but overall a nice guy.

14-Mormon Prophets have always been law-abiding citizens.

15-The church had nothing to do with MMM.

16-The three nephites roam the earth (insert collection of sightings here)

17-The spirits of the dead visit temples (insert collection of sightings here)

18-The dead help the living find their genealogy (insert testimonials here)

19-Jesus talks to the modern prophet in the temple face to face.

20-Whom the Lord Calls, the Lord qualifies.

21-Bigfoot is Cain

22-God shall not be mocked.

23-Apostates leave the church either because they’ve been offended or because they aren’t “valiant enough” to keep the commandments.

24-There is proof out there that the Book of Mormon is true (i.e. Stela 5 of Izapa).

25-Qetzalcoatl was really Jesus.

26-BYU archaeologists have found evidence of the Book of Abraham.

27-The only “evidence” against the BoM is lack of artifacts.

28-The Pope and a few monks know that the LDS church is true because the Vatican vaults contain some of the missing books of the bible which clearly show that fact. They keep them hidden because if they came out it would mean the end of the Catholic church.

29-When the apostles get together they seek the spirit and all always agree, because they are inspired.

30-Jesus is coming back. He will come to the temple first

I could go on, but now that I think about it the whole church and anything that comes out of it isn’t much more than urban legends.

Subject: You left behind one of the ones most of us have seen
Date: Aug 10 02:26
Author: LarryD


How about “They are excommunicated. You want to stay away from them or you are going to be just like them.”

Is rationale somehowe infectious?

When we were exed, there was an article in the Church News by our favorite columnist GBH urging all members to not forget those who had be exed or disfellowship, but try to visit regularly to help them return to the fold.

It was 18 months later before we sae a member of the church in our home and it was only because she wanted me to do something for her personally at church. No danger getting infected with what we had!

Christ taugh forgiveness. When does that become an item of importance for Mormons?

Subject: Great Post! Here’s some more to add to your list...
Date: Aug 09 17:53
Author: Deconstructor
Mail Address:


- The Three Nephites
Lots of stories about these guys roaming around like Highlander.

- Jesus Visits the Temple Regularly to Talk with the Prophet
All the “temple lights were on last night” stories go under here.

- Priesthood Blessings
There’s at least as many stories about blessings as garments. Mormons use the same selective memory trick with blessings. If they live, it’s the priesthood, if they die, it was meant to be so you should be happy.

- The Spirit Helped My Find My Lost Keys/Purse/Wallet/Credit Card/ etc..
‘nuf said.

- We Met Each Other/Were a Family Before We Were Born
Remember the old “My Turn On Earth” and “Saturday’s Warrior” roadshow crap? Lots of urban legends about this.

- Indian Skin Turning White After Joining the Church
There were lots of stories about this during the 1950s and 60s. Even Kimball spread these stories around.

- America’s Founding Fathers are Mormons
There’s the story of the founding fathers all appearing to a prophet in the St. George temple and demanding thier temple work be done. There’s the Mormon leaders saying the Constitution was “inspired” and is “scripture.” Then there’s the new huge statue in Provo of Jefferson, Washington and Franklin all kneeling in prayer Mormon-style.

I could go on... there’s just so many. Mormons thrive on this drivel.

Subject: Re: Great Post! Here’s some more to add to your list...
Date: Aug 09 18:05
Author: Captain Entenille
Mail Address:


I considered the 3 Nephites and the curse of the Lamanite skin, but both of these are (screwy) doctrine, rather than faith-promoting rumors.

However, I didn’t think about Kimball’s “by golly, I think their skin is getting lighter” quote. A lot of TBMs were going around repeating this.

Good additions! several of these would be in my second ten.

Subject: Kimball was probably right...but for the wrong reasons...
Date: Aug 10 02:33
Author: LarryD


Lets choose people I know. The Navajos. Kids today are oftem lighter skinned than their parents seem to be. Not much secret as to why. Instreat of spending their youth outside under the hot southwest sun herding animals or working in the fields, the last few generations have been housed in airconditioned classrooms far away from the sun, or firmly planted infront of the television - also far away from the sun.
Less sun - less tan= lighter skin tone.
A no brainer

Subject: A couple of clarifications
Date: Aug 09 18:29
Author: bruises and all sick cattle
Mail Address:


Captain Entenille wrote:

3- The LDS church has no paid ministry.
.... The top 85 or 90 leaders (General Authorities) do quite well. They receive a salary, allowances, and also are paid as board members for the vast number of church-owned corporations. ....

Actually, the church removed all GAs from the boards of its corporations a few years ago. It’s not allowed anymore.

4- The LDS church is the fastest growing church in the world.
It’s certainly fast growing, but if you are talking raw numbers,

Actually, it’s not. The American Religious Indentification Survey (ARIS) showed that the church is hardly growing at all in the US, and practically all of that growth is “natural” growth, not conversion. The survey results also showed that as many people in the US are leaving mormonism as joining.

ARIS did not give figures for outside of the US, but it is known that retention in practically all foreign countries is negligible. Unit attendance figures (as low as they are) can make the retention seem higher, but a significant number of the attendees are “investigators” (and a lot of kids) who are not members and will never be. The LDS church’s membership numbers bear as much relationship to reality as Enron’s finances did.

9- In the first year of the Mormon settlement in Utah, a plague of locusts (Mormon crickets) threatened to wipe out their crops. God responded with a “miracle”, sending an army of seagulls to devour the insects.
This one is true — however the miracle part is somewhat embellished.

Actually, it’s not true. The seagull “miracle” wasn’t considered a miracle until years after the fact. At the time weather was considered as important a factor in crop loss as the crickets. Also, seagull intervention was not some large, global event, but was sporadic and localized. See Hartley’s “Mormons, Crickets and Gulls: A New Look at an Old Story” in The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past for more details.

Subject: What happened to the quail at winter quarters?
Date: Aug 10 02:36
Author: LarryD


These birds came into camp so tame they could be captured by hand and saved the saints from starvation
Could it have been they were frozen and seeking shelter in the wagons from the wind on the flat prarie?

Subject: the three nephites are everywhere!
Date: Aug 09 19:07
Author: Poker Face


Every helpful stranger who has ever shared a gas can with a mormon or otherwise fortuitously appeared to help a mormon in need has been attributed as one of the three freakin’ nephites.

This legend is the mormon equivalent of belief in faeries. It’s crazy.

PokerFace

Subject: Re: Top Ten Mormon Urban Legends
Date: Aug 09 19:23
Author: wonderman


Here’s one I heard a few years ago:

In one of the temples, a temple worker became aware of a large crowd gathering in the foyer. She assumed it was a busload of people just arriving to go through and went about her business. Then she observed two very large men dressed in armor and carrying swords who positioned themselves in the entryway so as not to allow the people inside the temple. The temple worker realized that the men were angels protecting the temple from a horde of demons.

I wondered, since both angels and demons are immortal, why would the angels bother to wear armor or carry swords?

Subject: Got to say something on this one....
Date: Aug 09 19:48
Author: A Voice form the past...
Mail Address:


First off, swords are the (near) universal symbol and weapon of truth, righteousness. I do not know why, but the human psyche is almost hard-wired that way. THe sword is a symbol of power, devine right for more human clutures than any other weapon. In fact, every culture that developed the sword has placed a special regard to its mystery and power.

Armor is also symbolic of spiritual protection.

And even though demons and angels may be immotral, it does not make them immutable. A demon can still be cut into little pieces, it would still hurt, and take a long time for the demon to pull itself together again, and even then, it could be ‘alive’ for the whole time. This based on the understanding of spirits and demons I have from my studies, I have limited first hand knowledge.

But, taking what this worker saw at face values (which is a big suspension of disbelief).... Why would a horde of demons be attracted to the Temple? Think about it for a moment, if the temple were so holy, then wouldn’t the very nature of the temple protect it from direct interaction by the demons. Demons being creatures of evil (by definition) cannot tolerate or abide good, and spiritual purity is actually painful to them (another truely universal axiom of the spirit realm, as understood by almost every culture of humans on earth). So, if they were trying to get in, then the temple could not be the ‘holiest place on earth’ now, could it?

Anyway, just some thoughts and information

Subject: The Empty Sea
Date: Aug 09 20:05
Author: al-marek


Uh, MTC.

While there (1984) I heard the following “faith-promoting” rumor:
A mercenary at the Empty Sea had had a dream that there were Nephite warriors guarding every door and window at the Empty Sea. Also, he saw legions of angels descending from above to guard the Clubhouse from hordes of demons. The demons were trying to destroy the Celestial Triangle (MTC-BYU-temple), but the legions of Nephite warriors kept them at bay. This mercenary related this dream to a visiting GA who “confirmed” that it was true.

And speaking of the Clubhouse:
Rumor is that the pres of the Provo Clubhouse lived near the Clubhouse. One night, at about 2 am, he got up for a drink of water. (There must have been a monster outside his room.) He noticed that the lights inside the Clubhouse were on. As he made preparations to dress and investigate, the phone rang. It was the profit of the cult, telling the Clubhouse pres that “the Lord” was in “His House”, you know, just looking around, and that the Clubhouse pres should just go back to bed.

al-marek

Subject: I heard that one too when I was in the Empty Sea
Date: Aug 10 02:57
Author: Buffalo Bill Shakespeare
Mail Address:

Subject: Cain
Date: Aug 09 19:58
Author: percy
Mail Address:


I remember my sister and I talking in great depth about Cain roaming the earth and wondering if he was in fact Bigfoot.
We also had long talks about the 3 nephites LOL

Oh gosh and I really believed all that.

Another thing I remember hearing over the years (and first told by missionaries who baptized me) is how UFO’s came to earth during the time of the pyramids but they weren’t aliens as we would think but from another of God’s planets and were more spiritually advanced than we are.
That most of the UFO sightings are connected with the doctrine and Kolob.

Does anyone else remember hearing that or did I just happen to run into whacko mormons all the time?

Subject: I’d almost forgotten about the UFO-Kolob connection.
Date: Aug 10 00:35
Author: JoeF
Mail Address:


I remember talk of all that nonsense now. Didn’t the line of thinking go something like, “They could buzz-bomb the planet, but direct contact was prohibited.” Or some such BS. If I hadn’t spent so many years preparing the sacrament - I’d say they must’ve put some mind-altering drug in it.

JoeF

Subject: The Holy Ghost will stop you from divulging temple secrets.
Date: Aug 09 20:21
Author: Sobriquet


My TBM mom was really big on this one. It cracks me up when I look back on how melodramatic she’d get when she’d catch herself starting to say too much.

We’d be sitting there talking about the temple, and she’d suddenly stop talking and put her hand over her mouth. When I’d ask her what’s wrong, she’d say, “The Spirit stopped me from talking,” or “The Holy Ghost made me mute because I was starting to tell you too much.” She was very dramatic about it.

I guess I shouldn’t think it’s funny because she was probably terrified that someone or something would soon be coming to slit her throat.

Actually, I’m pissed! Damn cult doing that to my mom!

Subject: RE: #10...could you tell me what study looked at Mormon injury/death ratios...
Date: Aug 09 21:33
Author: Sagan’s Choice
Mail Address:


Also, the “observations of safety experts, paramedics and hospital emergency room personnel” statement sounds pretty subjective. What is your information source?

Thanks

Subject: temple elevators
Date: Aug 09 22:32
Author: nonmemberfriend
Mail Address:


The rumor was, the salt lake temple was designed with these little rooms on each floor, one above the other through inspiration. Nobody knew WHY the little rooms existed. Years later, elevators were installed connecting all the rooms as vertical shafts, and then everyone KNEW god had that in mind the whole time and had inspired the design.

Similarly, the tabernacle rumor I heard was that the ceiling was designed with all these passageways and holes, and years later... WAALA! they were perfect for running electrical wires and lighting. God Again had inspired the architects.

Subject: The seagulls saved the crops, BUT...less than 5% of the journals that the church
Date: Aug 10 00:00
Author: SamIAm
Mail Address:


has from that time even mention seeing a single seagull on that day. But hey, look on the bright side, we here in Utah now have the most popular fowl found at trash dumps as our state bird!

Subject: Did you hear the legend of the unworthy temple attendees?
Date: Aug 10 01:51
Author: All ears
Mail Address:


There was the rumor of a group going into the temple to get their endowments. Allegedly, one of the workers stopped the procession and said, “There are two people here engaged in adultery. Please leave now.” No one moved. The worker repeated what he said. Finally, when no one would leave, he made a THREAT and said “There are two people here engaged in adultery and if they do not leave now I will call out their names!”

Then, quietly, two of the members in the procession left.

Subject: Here’s a treasure from the polygamists.
Date: Aug 10 02:08
Author: Troy


The ancient Nephites used dinosaurs as beasts of burden. These animals were particularly useful in the extensive mining operations of BofM times.

I affectionately refer to this as the Flintstonian Theory.

Subject: Starting an Exmo Urban Legend?
Date: Aug 10 02:12
Author: LarryD


In Item 6. you say “Within a few days after he became a Master Mason, Joseph simply copied the same ceremony for the Mormon Church.” If you look in the records of the Grand Masonic Lodge based in Springfirld at the time, you will discover that Joseph is with a very small group of men who never had to memorize all the Masonic ritual from which the LDS Nauvoo Temple ceremony was populated with. Joseph Smith was made a Master Mason by declaration of the Grand Master of the Illinois Grand Lodge on one of the Master’s visit to the region. Joseph, according to Masonic history soon was selling memberships in the Nauvoo Lodge that met above his store and neither requered men be vouched for, but only that they could pay tyhe initiation fees and dues. He corrupted Masonry.

After Smith’s death all lodges in the Nauvoo area were disfranchised and 1500 masons belong to them were then no longer Masons. The author of the Nauvoo Ceremonies was more likely Brigham or other high ranking “saints” as they also included in the ceremony a promise to avenge the death of Joseph! This was not removed until years later.

The men who attacked the Liberty Jail were most likely a contingent of Masons, or had some Masons among them, for the last thing Joseph was recorded as doing was to give part of the Masonic cry of distress. He only would have done that if there was another Mason at hand who would normally be then obligated to come to his aid.

Subject: You Missed Missionaries not being allowed to cross open water.
Date: Aug 10 02:18
Author: LarryD


Ask around. I ran into this one overseas.
The Mishes said they were not allowed to cross Hong Kong Bay on a ferry. Another group of Mishes said something to the effect they could not take a boat out into the Missouri .
Others here have details.

Subject: This whole thread is hysterical—AND SO TRUEl!! n’t
Date: Aug 10 02:57
Author: makesmyheadspin
Mail Address:


Captain Entenille (great handle, BTW!) started a fun thread about urban legands in the Morg that got too big and is now closed. I want to “resurrect” that thread and add to it:

* Garmie stories

We’ve all heard stories about accidents where the victims weren’t hurt where the garments covered them. Well, my favorite had to do with miners who were trapped in a collapse and whose bodies where unscathed where the garments had covered them.

But the clincher...they all died anyway! D’OH!! But their thighs and torsos weren’t burned like their extremities were. Well, whooptie doo! What a blessed miracle!!

* WWII stories

At work, I heard several people talking about some Kamakaze pilot who was involved in the Pearl Harbor attack who kept trying to bomb the temple in Hawaii, but kept losing track of it and turning around and around trying to get a fix on it until he finally gave up.

Have any of you heard of Kamakaze pilots who live to brag about their antics?

* 9/11 stories

E-mails were flying around the globe claiming that an entire mission should have been in the WTC for a conference that fateful morning but that every single mishie and leader was unexpectedly delayed. Only problem, it was all 100% bogus. Whoever started the story couldn’t even get basic facts like the name of the mission right or the fact that mishies never rented space in the WTC for conferences.

I could go on, but I’m getting very sleepy. It’s probably Heavenly Father trying to get me to stop maligning His one and only true church. Or maybe it’s just that I’ve been up for almost 20 straight hours. :)

Please keep the fun stories coming!

Subject: How about the stupid stories about blessings right before going to the doctor
Date: Aug 11 00:30
Author: opinionated
Mail Address:


and—voila!—the operation works. Praise the lard and the penishood, but don’t give the doc any credit.

Subject: Why would they bomb a temple? They wanted to take our military out.
Date: Aug 11 01:00
Author: GrandpaJim


Targets were ships, airfields, and related military facilities. Anything else was just collateral damage. I’ve read that most of the civilian causualties at Pearl Harbor were from our own anti-aircraft fire.

The Mormons who keep this story going have an exaggerated idea of how important the temple is in the larger scheme of things. No Japanese pilot would have wasted a single bullet on it.

Subject: A few of my favorites
Date: Aug 11 14:04
Author: EnochIpsen


I love missionary folklore

The missionaries took their clothes to the laundry to have them cleaned. The owner thought the garments were funny so he hung them in the store window. The laundry burned to the ground.

To my knowledge this has happened in Mexico, Tahiti, Hawaii, various South American countries and in the Bible Belt.

...

How about the missionaries in England that were bicycling down a country road. They stopped and decided to to confer the priesthood on a fencepost.

In one version, lightning struck them both dead. Obviously, there were no witnesses to see what happened so the story had to be modified.

Soon, the one who conferred the priesthood was killed while the one assisting was merely wounded so he could tell the story later on.

...

How about the missionaries in the MTC (or LTM depending on when you heard it) who got talking about Satan. Satan possesses one of the missionaries and, depending on the story, the branch president, mission president or president of the LTM is called and hurries right on over to cast the demons out.

...

Then again, there is the story of the missionaries in California who went to the Super Bowl. The mission president happened to be watching the game and the camera panned in on the missionaries who were then sent home.

While I was a missionary in Hawaii, the story was related to me that it was missionaries from my mission and even under my mission president. Instead of seeing them on TV, though, other members saw them there and reported to the president. He and the APs went to their apartment, packed their bags and met them at the airport with their tickets home.

...

Don’t forget about the small town in Central America that had one set of elders and one set of sisters. They got married and traded companions for their living arrangements. This went on for months before they were caught and excommunicated.

Enoch

Subject: The most annoying mo urban legend
Date: Aug 11 19:23
Author: James
Mail Address:


I’ve probably heard this stupid story at a dozen sacrament meetings. I’m sure everyone here knows it. “Free the birdies!”

Some 3 year old kid gets crushed under a garage door opener, the paramedics are called and revivce the kid. After the stay in the hospital the kid(who somehow manages to speak impeccable english for a 3 year old) tells his parents about being in a place where there were “birdies locked in cages” and how people were doing work to “free the birdies”. This was supposed to represent the temple and the birdies were the spirits waiting to have temple work done for them. Thats the gist of it. I think I purposely pushed most of this dumb story out of my mind so I’m a little sketchy on some parts. But I’m sure everyone here has heard it.

James

Subject: Guatemala in the version I heard
Date: Aug 11 20:05
Author: A_Grant
Mail Address:


Happened in an all Catholic village in Guatemala.
Difference is the Missionary cursed the Laundry in the name of G0d and pronounced it would suffer the punishment of God ans it burned down.

Subject: Hawaii Temple and Kamikaze Pilots
Date: Aug 12 00:03
Author: Marisa
Mail Address:


When I attended BYU-Hawaii many years ago, I had a religion professor who was rather liberal. He talked about the FPR of Kamikaze pilot(s) trying to bomb the temple. He said that much time had been invested by the Church in trying to track down the mystery pilots(s). They always managed to get one person away from the pilot, but never actually contacted the man. They finally concluded, in the words of my prof., that “It was a story that should have been true, but wasn’t.”

Subject: What about the priest who joined the church
Date: Aug 12 09:58
Author: nomomatt
Mail Address:


and was being tracked down by Vatican hired assasins? That one supposedly involved Brewerton, a Seventy. He publicly disavowed it. The same “letter” outlining this guy’s escape from the Vatican’s killers also said that if a cathedral had a red cross painted inside on the walls, the bishop there was authorized to order murders. All the dips**t missionaries in Argentina would look all around any Catholic church they saw for the red cross!!

Another dumb one that had to do with missonaries—in Argentina again—going to a lady’s home where she served them mate cocido-a kind of herbal tea. They finish their tea, and agree to return the next day. When they come back, she is astonished to see them. When they ask why she was so surprised, she instantly confesses to having put enough poison in their mate to have killed a horse.

And finally, missionaries in my mission Buenos Aires North, said that we would know when the second coming was inminent because missionaries would be allowed to carry handguns. Leaving aside the Freudian implications, this one came from an elder whose uncle was a GA. Guess it must be true then.

The old hitchhiker that a member of the church picks up who warns the member that they should have food storage/go to the temple/do their hometeaching/any other TBM activity. Shortly after that the hitchiker disappears from the front seat of the member’s car.

The macho legends like armed angels patrolling the perimeter of the MTC or giant Nephite warriors guarding the Mexico City temple from an armed mob.

That’s enough for now, makes my head hurt remembering all this crap.

Subject: Japan Didn’t Use Kamikaze Pilots at Pearl Harbor!
Date: Aug 13 01:38
Author: SL Cabbie
Mail Address:


They were conceived of later in the war, as a desperation tactic. And the targets hit in Pearl Harbor were military targets.

Hope everyone read my post a few months ago about the elder waterskiing in his garmies because lightening struck a little close to the group of teenagers he was chaperoning. I still have a hunch that one’s true.

Subject: Terrific! Every single one of those was told in my mission as well
Date: Aug 12 09:33
Author: kilgore


and all supposedly happened in various missions in the country. So you can add Italy to the list of places where all of those stories supposedly happened. Thanks for reminding me! :)

In my mission, the elders “brushed their feet” at the wicked laundry which, leading to its destruction, and I never heard the variation of the fencepost where both got killed (I guess it had already evolved by then).

Subject: Ecco! Io ho fatto la missione nella bella Italia!
Date: Aug 13 00:25
Author: Shiz


I did my time in 1983-1984 - Rome

You?

(I think I too have heard all these same FPR - with a touch of oregano and garlic!)

Subject: Re: Ecco! Io ho fatto la missione nella bella Italia!
Date: Aug 13 23:02
Author: kilgore


‘87-’89 Milano

Subject: Another legend from England...
Date: Aug 13 03:26
Author: Ramses
Mail Address:


where a missionary couple was so despaired in baptizing someone that they baptized a dog and weere subsequently killed.

Subject: The Super Bowl/Missionary Story
Date: Aug 12 00:21
Author: Marisa
Mail Address:


This one has been around in various incarnations for eons.
The version I heard, in the late 70’s, was about missionaries from Italy who snuck away to attend the 76 Olympics in Innsbruck, Austria. They were conveniently positioned right by the end of the ski run when Franz Klammer crossed the finish line to win the gold. They were supposedly in a picture on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
Their mission president saw the magazine, and they were tossed.
The person who told me said they were in his mission a year before he arrived.
I was so gullible that I believed it.

Subject: Re: Two missionaries get caught...
Date: Aug 12 10:10
Author: SD
Mail Address:


sitting on a buddha in Thailand to have their pictures taken. The Thai police arrest them and they spend six months in a Thai jail. No urban legend here. It really happened. I knew one of the guys and he’s the first to admit it was dumb shit, disrespectful thing to do.

Subject: I didn’t know they went to jail
Date: Aug 12 21:22
Author: EnochIpsen


but that one I do remember from the newspapers in here Salt Lake City. If I’m correct, it happened sometime after October, 1995.

Enoch

Subject: Wrong: I remember having seen the pic in a German news mag in the late 1970’s nt
Date: Aug 13 03:23
Author: Ramses
Mail Address:


Subject: Actor Dean Jagger (Brigham Young in the movie)......
Date: Aug 13 00:45
Author: Captain Entenille
Mail Address:


was so smitten with Mormonism, after making the movie he converted and went on a mission.

The cigar smoking Jagger spoofed this of course, but in spite of his denials, the rumor still circulates among the old timers, 60 years after the movie was made.

Subject: Jacqueline Bisset
Date: Aug 13 00:56
Author: Tyler


I had heard that the ultra sexy Jaqueline Bisset was taking the missionary discussions and was very near the blessed baptism.

The whole thing was called off when she had the torrid love scene with Rob Lowe in the early 80’s movie, “Class”. It was mentioned that she would be one who would wail and gnash her teeth during the second coming as she accepted then rejected the gospel

I felt so bad for her sinning soul!! LOL

Tyler

Subject: notice the common thread in all of them.....
Date: Aug 13 03:04
Author: sparkle
Mail Address:


almost all of these stories have the same theme of making a little human error and being “cursed” for it, usually at the hands of a glorious/righteous mormon. disgusting brain-washing propaganda bs!!!!!!!

Also they follow the elitist theme in mormonism.

Subject: The three Nephites
Date: Aug 13 09:59
Author: ExMoron
Mail Address:


(Larry, Moe, and Curly) saved many a lone farmer/rancher after some terrible accident, then disappeared. Ain’t it grand?

How about the night driver on some deserted, country road, that has Satan try to wrest the steering wheel out of his/her hands. Only the power of prayer/the priesthood saved them!! Really!!!

Subject: I don’t know about anyone else...
Date: Aug 13 10:15
Author: AprilZ76
Mail Address:


but I always heard about how Satan would try to “grab hold” of young men right before their missions. I even heard stories about young men being woke up with “someone’s” hands around their throats choking them so they couldn’t go carry out their sacred work on their mission. And what’s the deal with missionaries not being able to swim? I live in FL and I always felt sorry for the mishes down here that could go the the beach or the pool parties but weren’t allowed to swim. Is there a clear reason for that?

Subject: Mission Swimming and Toga Parties
Date: Aug 13 11:37
Author: Shiz
Mail Address:


Same in my mission (Italy) I missed all those great beaches, but a companion of mine did get a picture of him with four beautiful topless gals on the beach!

Anyways, about swimming: the real scoop is to minimize accidents and liabilities. Sorta scare them straight! Too many drown while swimming and I would gather that high energy 19 and 20 year old males are often, shall we say, reckless!

Subject: Mission Swimming and Toga Parties
Date: Aug 13 11:37
Author: Shiz
Mail Address:


Same in my mission (Italy) I missed all those great beaches, but a companion of mine did get a picture of him with four beautiful topless gals on the beach!

Anyways, about swimming: the real scoop is to minimize accidents and liabilities. Sorta scare them straight! Too many drown while swimming and I would gather that high energy 19 and 20 year old males are often, shall we say, reckless!

(source: exmormon.org)


15 posted on 02/27/2012 9:54:00 AM PST by AnTiw1
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To: greyfoxx39
Photobucket

Photobucket

16 posted on 02/27/2012 9:54:50 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: MeganC
While I am not a Mormon and do not wish to be, the NYT criticizing them for their successful lifestyle is kind of empty when you look at the kind of sick, perverted, and demented lifestyles the NYT actually approves of.

Thank you. Says what I was planning to say better than I would.

We may have disagreements with Mormons about theology and doctrine but their devotion to family and forsaking much of the world's temptations for greater family time is not faked and should be admired, not criticized.

17 posted on 02/27/2012 9:55:01 AM PST by OrangeHoof (Obama: The Dr. Kevorkian of the American economy.)
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To: dragonblustar; svcw

The “I’mnotamormonbut” bunch is busy today. IMO, all the INAMB’s are closet RomneyBots.


18 posted on 02/27/2012 9:55:15 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If mormonism is Christianity, then "off" is a TV channel.)
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To: dragonblustar
'extra planets for everyone...'

ROTFLMAO!!!

19 posted on 02/27/2012 10:00:33 AM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: greyfoxx39
IMO, all the INAMB’s are closet RomneyBots.

I agree.

I think zots should be in order...

20 posted on 02/27/2012 10:01:59 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: fishtank

I am not Mormon. Nevertheless, I am troubled by anyone questioning anyone else’s faith. It is, after all, FAITH. I certainly recognize that what I believe, I believe by faith. I cannot prove it (if I could, I would). Mormons cannot prove it. No religion can. To question what others believe only invites a response in kind.

All of that said, I believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the World (for those who will accept Him). And while I don’t have proof, among the best evidence of Christ’s divinity was His willingness to die when He could have avoided death by simply denying His divinity. Many of His apostles, who witnessed His resurrected person, suffered hideous deaths that they could have avoided by renouncing their faith. Had Christ not risen from the dead and appeared to them over many days, I cannot believe they would have willingly suffered as they did.

I’ll disagree with what the Mormons believe on some fronts, but I see no right or good in denying them their faith.


21 posted on 02/27/2012 10:08:31 AM PST by NCLaw441
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To: OrangeHoof

“We may have disagreements with Mormons about theology and doctrine but their devotion to family and forsaking much of the world’s temptations for greater family time is not faked and should be admired, not criticized.”

I agree. Our family adheres to a Christian lifestyle that sometimes appears similar to the Mormons. We home-school K-12, there’s no birth control or abortion (I’m expecting baby #4), I stay at home and hubby works, and there’s not a lot of TV allowed because even the commercials are a bad influence on children. I am sure I’d be condemned all over the place by the NYT for not being some urban skank who sleeps with everyone...but their condemnation is to me the highest form of praise.


22 posted on 02/27/2012 10:13:45 AM PST by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
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To: MeganC; greyfoxx39

WHAT ‘sucessful lifestyle’??!?

Mormons are under a lot of pressure to show the world (and other Mormons) that they live the perfect sucessful life. Behind closed doors is another matter entirely.

Mormons not only lie to outsiders, they lie to themselves as well. It is the only way they can maintain their ‘testimony’ of Mormonism.

Been there, done that.


23 posted on 02/27/2012 10:20:49 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: NCLaw441

i don’t see you telling people to be silent about the facts on any other religion...just this one

and frankly, i have no idea if you’re really a mormon or not...the first thing a mormon on fr does is say he’s not mormon

if there’s an advantage in a mormon lying about his faith, he is COMMANDED by lds doctrine, to lie...

when i was in the church, they explained that if someone questioned you on a matter that put the church in a bad light, you were instructed to lie, because if the church was negatively represented, it could prevent prospective converts from becoming lds, and it was a lesser sin to lie than to let a convert be lost to the church...

i corroborate...”Lying for the Lord”, source: MormonWiki

Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith’s denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by “anti-Mormons” and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley’s dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism’s history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. “Lying for the lord” is part of Mormonism’s larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators.

(source: mormonwiki.org)


24 posted on 02/27/2012 10:22:12 AM PST by AnTiw1
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To: chs68; greyfoxx39; AnTiw1; svcw; SZonian; SENTINEL

It isn’t bigotry, it is the absolute truth, and more.

Mormonism is not at all what it appears to be.

Read some of the posts here: www.exmormon.org

or listen to the stories of ex-Mormons on here. The article is correct.


25 posted on 02/27/2012 10:24:58 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: SaxxonWoods

Mormons say worse about the Catholics every single day. The only group they hate more are Evangelicals (which they call ‘reborns’ or ‘gracers’).


26 posted on 02/27/2012 10:28:16 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: OrangeHoof

but their devotion to family and forsaking much of the world’s temptations for greater family time is not faked and should be admired, not criticized.

- - - -
Actually it IS faked, and/or blackmailed spiritually.

Mormonism is NOT at all what it appears to be. Sadly, most people only find out once they bought into it.


27 posted on 02/27/2012 10:30:54 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

“WHAT ‘sucessful lifestyle’??!?”

Compared to the kinds of lifestyle the NYT approves of I’d say the majority of Mormons are vastly successful at raising families. They are NOT perfect and I know plenty of ex-Mormons in our church and would NEVER advise anyone to become a Mormon. That said, compare them to what the NYT approves of and the Mormons are, by far, successful.


28 posted on 02/27/2012 10:34:22 AM PST by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
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To: greyfoxx39
It May Look Good on Paper [Mormonism]

True dat!!




29 posted on 02/27/2012 10:42:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AnTiw1
Only a Hateful BIGOT would even THINK about posting such factual, non-faith building things!

--MormonDude('course we got spots! We're HUMAN; just like you!)





30 posted on 02/27/2012 10:45:10 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MeganC
While I am not a Mormon and do not wish to be, the NYT criticizing them for their successful lifestyle is kind of empty when you look at the kind of sick, perverted, and demented lifestyles the NYT actually approves of.

Just wait until they come after our THEOLOGY!!

--MormonDupe(It won't be pretty!)





31 posted on 02/27/2012 10:46:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: chs68
This article from the New York Times is disgusting.

It is bigotry.

Too bad you could NOT claim it to be UNTRUE!

32 posted on 02/27/2012 10:48:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Rytas
When the NYSlimes does the same sort of article on the religion of peace then I will think about paying some attention to them.

We all KNOW that MORMONism is the TRUE Religion of Peace!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

33 posted on 02/27/2012 10:49:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Just to be clear, I think their theology is nuts - right up there with Scientology - but I know what I see and when I see Mormon families I almost uniformly see polite, well-behaved, and literate children and that says a lot for them at least in that regard.


34 posted on 02/27/2012 10:50:03 AM PST by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
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To: SaxxonWoods
I’m not a Mormon but I wonder how Catholics ...both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon'... would like it if Mormons started talking about the “Magic Bread.”

--MormonDude(fixed)

35 posted on 02/27/2012 10:53:08 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut
Subject: Do many TBMs [Mormons] love the notion of a "forever family" more than they love the people in their real family? Date: Sep 26 21:30 2003 Author: Perry Noid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am increasingly troubled by the way that TBMs treat doubting members of their real families--especially the way they treat doubting spouses who are otherwise still loyal mates and good people, but just have for good reason lost faith in the organization known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormons talk about the importance of families incessantly. This emphasis on "family values" is really a big draw to a lot of potential converts who are looking for a nice, wholesome community of faith that will help their individual families to develop closer and more loving relationships. (The attraction to the "family values" touted by the Church is often probably more decisive than the Book of Mormon or any specific doctrines of the Church.) However, there is a dark, perverse aspect of Mormon family values, specifically in the way that the Church twists the family concept to promote blind loyalty to the Church above all else. Just as a politician may repeat the mantra "it's for the children" as a misleading label to promote the politician's own selfish interests with little regard for the welfare of real children, the Church uses it's concept of Forever Families? as a misleading label to promote the interests of the Church at the expense of the bonds of love and loyalty between individual members of real families. Perhaps the most pernicious aspect of Mormon "family values" is the way that the Church exploits the notion of eternal families ("Forever Families"). In Mormonism you are required to pass a worthiness test to become a member of a Forever Family?. And loyalty to the Church is the essence of the worthiness test. This is conditional love. This means that Mormon Forever Families? are not based on bonds of affection for particular individuals. They are based on the family as an administrative unit of the Church. Forever Families? consist of (1) a Father who is certified as a loyal member of the Church, (2) a mother who is certified as a loyal member of the Church, and (3) the kids who must prove their loyalty as adults in order to remain qualified members of the Forever Family?. The individuals who are assigned to particular roles in the Forever Family? are interchangeable parts. In a way, Mormons treat these different familial roles as Church "callings." If one of the family members proves to be disloyal to the Church, considerable pressure is felt to replace that member with a "worthy" person. Sadly, we see this happening quite often with people who post here on this board. When one spouse begins to doubt the Church, they are jeopardizing their position as a member of the Forever Family?. The TBM spouse will often threaten divorce unless the doubting spouse shapes up and renews the loyalty oath to the Church (which can be taken at a Temple near you, if you are certified by the Church as being worthy to enter.) When TBM spouses do this, they are essentially declaring to the world that they have no particular loyalty or love for the doubting spouse as a unique individual. The TBM spouse is declaring that they love the concept of the Forever Family? and if the doubting spouse is decertified by the Church and labeled as being "unworthy" of being in that Forever Family? unit, they can and will be replaced. When you replace affection for real, flesh and blood, unique individuals, with a love for the abstract concept of a Forever Family?, the way that so many TBM spouses do, as revealed when confronted with a doubting spouse, the family concept becomes meaningless. The family turns out to be little more than an administrative unit of the Church. Something like a Primary Presidency or Elders Quorum. Mormons ought to go one step further and, like the Moonies, let the church assign "worthy" spouses to each other and designate substitute spouses to step in if one of the spouses proves later to have defective loyalty to the Church. Too many TBMs love belonging to a Forever Family? more than they love any of the individuals who are in their real family. Subject: That's exactly it. Great thoughts Perry. Date: Sep 26 22:00 Author: TLC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Furthermore, the Forever Family? is used as a bargaining tool to extract obedience: "Do what you're told or you're not going to be with your family in the hereafter." To a kid, that's pretty heavy stuff to deal with. To most kids, the idea of being separated from their family is terrifying. I remember as kids traveling though Europe with my folks in what sometimes seemed like insufferably long journeys from one place to another. When us kids would misbehave or get too rowdy, my mom would stop the VW camper by the side of the road and threaten to drag us out and leave us there at the side of the road for the gypsies to come along and grab. It was such a scary thought that it immediately got us to shape up. I felt the same way when I was told that if I didn't obey the commandments, I wouldn't be able to be with my family in the next life. It's emotional blackmail and mormons have elevated it to an artform. All of this talk about families has nothing to do with families. It's about using a vulnerable part of our psyches to control us. Subject: You're right. Emotional blackmail has been elevated to an artform by Mormons. Date: Sep 27 09:21 Author: Perry Noid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a way, it's like the Church takes the love between family members and holds it hostage to ensure obedience to its demands. Then if that's not sufficient to keep individual members in line, the Church manipulates the TBM members of the family into pulling the trigger and terminating the love that's been held hostage all that time. Your story about your mother's threats to leave you for the gypsies reminds me of similar experiences I had when I was a kid (like threats to take me to the animal shelter and leave me there--of course I was too young at the time to realize that animal shelters wouldn't let frustrated mothers drop off their kids). In hindsight, I think my mother didn't think too much about what she was saying, because to adults the threat was so ludicrous as to be comical. And it did work, temporarily, to quiet me down I guess. But to a literal-minded little kid, such threats can be horrifying. Subject: good point. Every mormon marriage should begin with the question Date: Sep 26 22:02 Author: dialectic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you marrying me or the church?" Subject: Re: who would be asking that question? n/t Date: Sep 26 22:26 Author: dialectic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are three possibilities, but the first is almost not possible- 1. The church would teach this and incorporate it into the temple marriage interview 2. Parents would teach this to their children 3. The couples would ask it of each other I know I'm going to be discussing the issue with my children Subject: A perspective on this from developmental psychology. Date: Sep 26 23:02 Author: Faraway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "Families Forever" attracts people because of some intuitive truth there, but it's not the way that humans (egos) usually frame it. (I sense that the intuitive truth is that all people, even all beings, are fragments of one holy Family and that spiritual evolution brings us ever closer to realizing our Oneness. Individually, this takes the form of the same beings appearing together or in relationship in many conditions (or incarnations, if that suits you) in order to reach this realization.) Light on how the church interprets this idea can be seen in psychological models of the evolving self. Harvard psychologist Robert Kegan has a revealing book on this, "In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life" (1994), which states that schooling in general equips people psychologically to deal with life in the "traditional" societies of past centuries (monolithic truth, sacrifice for the community, entering into defined social roles, and sharing of a common 'adult' mindset). The demands of marriage, parenthood, work, and higher education, however, seem to contain a "hidden curriculum" requiring people to expand their thinking to fit modern & postmodern conditions of multiple roles for the individual, need for autonomy, and a diverse society. Kegan also considers families and marriages from the perspective of these different evolutionary stages (traditional, modern, postmodern). Briefly, the traditional view is that members must think and feel alike, sharing all perspective and values if there is to be the comforting sense of unity. Individualistic differentiation, in the form of thinking for oneself and critically examining inherited traditions, is threatening to the consensus of a traditional society (family, marriage). The modern emphasis on authenticity, autonomy, a separate and stable sense of self encourages people to define their own value systems, and in group interactions this calls sizing up situations, sticking to one's ideals, setting boundaries, honoring others likewise as independent individuals, tolerating differences, and compormising (marriages are often complementary unions). Although this appears to be a core "American" ideal, Kegan estimates that up to 70% of Americans don't make the transition to this stage. But beyond this, some individuals start to question their separate individuality and their self-authoring likewise as fictions, just as before they had questioned the inherited views. When this happens (only to a small number, and usually not until middle age), new possibilities of relationship open up. In marriages, for example, one sees oneself not as anything "set" but as a transforming being, aligned with one's partner in a convergence beyond what were before the defining differences. I see the Families Forever truth in this last, post-individual perspective, where people realize a deeper spiritual connectedness as their truer identity than their idiosyncratic differences (which are not threatening & which soften considerably as members come to recognize neglected aspects of themselves in others). The church view, in practice, appears staunchly traditional, and those who question & leave that traditional view appear to favor more of a live-and-let-live view of Family. Subject: Hmmm, I'll have to get that book. Date: Sep 27 10:40 Author: Stray Mutt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm particularly intrigued with the idea that institutions prepare us to live in the past, and that many people have a hard time making the transition to the kind of thinking necessary to live in the present. This might explain those who cling so tenaciously to tradition, systems, institutions and the idea of absolute, universal, unwavering truth. Subject: One of the most influential that I've read Date: Sep 27 11:23 Author: Faraway -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very readable, with so many extended examples of people confronted by transitional demands (e.g., are you completely honest with your children or do you fudge on honesty for their own good?--an example of how modern life presents ethical problems that education & socialization haven't covered). Kegan also writes extensively about that troublesome transition between egocentric, concrete thinking and empathetic, abstract thinking--adolescence. Adolescents really don't understand the new demands made on them across the board, since these are never explicitly explained, yet they are encountered in school, family, peer relationships, & work. Hence the turmoil of those years. In fact, he sees (with many examples) that many in our society who are labled sociopathic (mentally ill or delinquent) simply have not been able to make that transition. Subject: My mother can't see past the "forever family" to accept her real family Date: Sep 27 11:29 Author: spinner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the idea of the perfect forever family has done a severe disservice to my mother and kept her from ever enjoying her real family. I have a very successful family, all good people, all with college and some with advanced degrees. Nevertheless, my mother is constantly beset by the idea that her family is a failure. She thinks that to be successful, her family has to be some sanitized, cover of the Ensign eternal unit. Otherwise, she and we are failures. This unhealthy attitude has made her look at almost everything she has done as a failure, because every moment of life is not a big, glowing, slightly fuzzy image like they show in church videos. A good example of this happened a couple of years ago. I was 24 and living at home for a few months between undergrad and grad school. At the time, I no longer believed in the church, but was maintaining a fa硤e simply for the sake of domiciliary peace. Well, my mother (although she insisted she was not snooping) found some porn on my laptop. I will spare everyone the details of dollops of guilt that were piled on me, except for this one revealing comment. She said to me ?I thought that at least one of my sons was going to be pure,? meaning she had hoped for her sons to go into marriage having never seen a woman?s breast and that their first precious orgasm would be on their wedding night. It was clearly not enough that her oldest son, for instance, was temple married and extremely happy. He?d done things as a pre-missionary and this forever tainted everything after in her mind. He was no longer the church-approved husband, going over the threshold in a state of profound ignorance and holy purity, and in her mind this obviously forever stained his family. No Ensign covers for them! The point of this story is not to say my mother doesn?t love us; she does very much. Rather, it is to show how the idea of an eternal family is in many ways more important to her than her actual family. What she wants is a family where every moment could be an Ensign cover. She cannot see past the fact that we are not this idealized family to realize that we are, by and large, happy, fulfilled, successful and well-adjusted individuals. The ideal of an eternal family keeps her from really knowing and accepting her real family. Subject: Forever Families? are perfect, the members aren't. Date: Sep 27 12:26 Author: Stray Mutt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wait, that sounds familiar. Subject: (F-BOMB) This article fresh from Church News, 9/27/2003 is quite ironic Date: Sep 27 13:26 Author: Jezebel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and they seem not to have noticed anything is amiss. Missionary moments: School assignment On ... in the ... meetinghouse of the ... Stake, my mother, ..., my sisters ... and I, along with two friends, were baptized by Elders X and Y This marked the beginning of a modern-day pioneer legacy. It all began when I was assigned to give a report in school on any topic related to religion. I vividly remember feeling discouraged over this seemingly simple assignment when a newspaper article caught my eye. It was entitled, "Forever families." When I read those two words, my heart began pounding and my curiosity was overwhelming. These two words sounded so familiar even though the phrase was foreign to me. The article was written because the well-known Osmond Brothers were in town for a concert. Forever families was a concept taught in their religion. I knew I had found my topic. But as I researched the "Mormons" in various library books, I just wasn't satisfied. Mom suggested that I phone their church and ask them if they would help out with my report. Elders Z and W met me at my school. I will never forget the glow they had as they walked towards me. I recognized them although I had never seen a Mormon missionary in my life. [No kidding? They do look different don't they?] They brought such a warm and beautiful feeling with them which I now recognize as the Spirit. The elders actually gave my report by showing "Meet the Mormons" and held a question-and-answer period. [How convenient for you.] I knew I had found something very beautiful and I wanted so to share it with my family. We took the discussions, along with two girls from my religion class, and we accepted the gospel. After our baptism, our lives literally started over. We were disowned by family members because of our decision, but the light and joy the gospel brought to us far exceeded any and all trials. Although Mom has since passed away, she in her great love for missionary work is undoubtedly sharing the gospel on the other side. And so the legacy continues as our sons are now serving as well as preparing to serve full-time missions that they, too, may bring that same light that was brought to us over 30 years ago. ? [a girl] xxx Idaho Stake In other, plain words: F*CK THE FAMILY, WE PREFER THE CHURCH. So they preach "families forever", but in reality, they couldn't care less. Subject: Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt Date: Sep 27 13:46 Author: Merilynn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I finally told my mother last week that I thank God I no longer believe in eternal families, because I'd sure as hell hate to think I'm stuck in this one (my extended family) for eternity. They're all very, very truly brainwashed mormons, a fate I'm still not sure why I was lucky enough to be able to escape. They can all spout off the s@#t about how wonderful eternal families are. Yet we always did, and still do, nothing but backbite, slander and belittle each other, and when I think of it, that's the way it always was. My parents talk to each other with a "when am I going to be rid of you" attitude in their voices and the things they say to each other. Yet if you asked them, they can't wait to be together as a family for all eternity. I think people just like being able to say the words "Forever Family," but really don't like the notion of what it would actually mean. My children and I all getting out of the church has really been the catalyst in helping my immediate family start to heal from the damage the "forever families" theology reacked on us--from my marrying someone I wasn't compatible with just so I could get married in the holy temple of God and be a "forever family" to expecting my children to conform to certain rules to be accepted by their parents. I've made a lot of mistakes with my family but in learning what forgiveness is really all about, hopefully we'll be able to continue to grow close and accepting of each other. Hopefully we'll be able to just be loving, supportive and helpful to each other in this life and only have to worry about being part of the "Family of Man" for the eternities. Subject: Thanks Perry Noid for a solid intelligent thread that Date: Sep 27 16:40 Author: cricket -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hits right at the core of the cult. My family of two parents and seven children are all alive, but four of us siblings are dead to our parents because we have officially resigned membership in their "Families Are Forever Cult." Four of the siblings rarely if ever speak with the three siblings that are so busy in their ward callings and temple work they have forgotten that we exist. My daughter is marrying in Feb in the SLC temple and me, the worthless ol' exmo patriarch gets to stand outside in a blizzard whilst his princess gets brainwashed and "sealed" inside of that family destroying edifice. Oh what joy the gospel of Gordon brings. My ass! And Mormons just can't understand why the public in general thinks Mormons are oddballs. (source: exmormon.org)
36 posted on 02/27/2012 10:53:09 AM PST by AnTiw1
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To: AnTiw1

For what it’s worth, I have attended a United Methodist Church for the last 18 years or so, where I teach Sunday School (my adult class), serve on the stewardship committee and help lead our early Sunday morning service. (But I guess that could be part of my secret Mormon disguise.)

I’ll try to defend any person’s right to his own faith. And I have no problem with people describing anyone else’s religion, and drawing attention to any facts about it. I just have problems with calling people’s faith “wrong” as a factual matter when it is a matter of faith.

I leave open the question as to whether an adherent to any religion ACTUALLY believes what he says, but that, too, is not for me to question.

Even though I disagree with the tone of some of what has been said on this thread, I absolutely support the posters’ right to say it.


37 posted on 02/27/2012 10:56:00 AM PST by NCLaw441
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To: dragonblustar
I think zots should be in order...

NO!!

I need SOMEONE to address my replies to!

38 posted on 02/27/2012 10:56:38 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

I wouldn’t buy the underwear just yet. Everything comes with a caveat.
________________________________________

Yeah

ya gotta put that ugly itchy T-Shirty top UNDER your bra..


39 posted on 02/27/2012 10:58:17 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: NCLaw441
I am not Mormon. Nevertheless, I am troubled by anyone questioning anyone else’s faith.

And yet later in your reply you CLAIM to be a CHRISTIAN??

Oprah has REALLY ruined you!!!


Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
 
 
 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



40 posted on 02/27/2012 10:58:41 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: NCLaw441
To question what others believe only invites a response in kind.

Bring it!

I'm quite sure I can handle it!

41 posted on 02/27/2012 10:59:25 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MeganC
Can't - will NOT - disagree with you on this point.

MORMONism; however; is a hellish demonic plot straight from the Deceiver himself.


NIV Galatians 1:6-9
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even
if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
 
Even ANGELs from HEAVEN???
 
 
 
 
 
 
It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound.
When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.
One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!


 
NIV Galatians 1:6-9
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
ANYBODY???
 
 
 
Like this fine looking fellow???



2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12. And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 

42 posted on 02/27/2012 11:03:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MeganC
...and when I see Mormon families I almost uniformly see polite, well-behaved, and literate children and that says a lot for them at least in that regard.

We had a family in church a few years ago that was praised by one our long time ladies of the church with these words, "You have such well behaved children. They are a pleasure to be around!"

To which the 12 year old girl replied, "You'd be good too, if YOUR dad weighed 300 pounds!"

43 posted on 02/27/2012 11:07:15 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AnTiw1

Your paragrapher is broken...


44 posted on 02/27/2012 11:08:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: NCLaw441
I leave open the question as to whether an adherent to any religion ACTUALLY believes what he says, but that, too, is not for me to question.

At the PERSONAL level, you are right.

However; at the CORPORATE lervel, one can DEFINITELY determine what the Organization has written is according to what the Bible states.

45 posted on 02/27/2012 11:10:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AnTiw1
Lets see now. Seems there is another FAITH (as some want to call these cults), that also have the ability LIE about their FAITH if need be...............thinking, thinking, thinking, oh yeah!!!

ISLAM, think that is the one. Islam/Morman close realtives? hmmmm

46 posted on 02/27/2012 11:28:32 AM PST by annieokie
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To: NCLaw441

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.

They do NOT teach the truth about Jesus.

You said, "Nevertheless, I am troubled by anyone questioning anyone else’s faith. It is, after all, FAITH. I certainly recognize that what I believe, I believe by faith. I cannot prove it (if I could, I would). Mormons cannot prove it. No religion can. To question what others believe only invites a response in kind."

Unfortunately, this definition of faith has no objectivity, no certainty, and no reliance on truth, it is based only on feelings.

Faith in Christ is NOT so. He is a real, historical figure. His basic existence is an established fact. His miracles were documented by His followers, and His claims to Divinity earned Him a crucifixion death. All this is verified by history (see Josephus). The problem with the lds is that they have literally stolen the Name, and the Identity of Jesus Christ, and have constructed a completely false story for their religion.

The lds demands that their organization be accepted as a true Christian group.

No. That cannot happen. Truth is truth. The only charitable thing to do is to speak the Truth to individual mormons. They are in a burning house, and they need to be rescued. Letting them stay and burn is wrong.

47 posted on 02/27/2012 11:31:14 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Elsie
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahha<

sorry for the mis-spells. lol

48 posted on 02/27/2012 11:33:05 AM PST by annieokie
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To: AnTiw1
oh my eyes. Would love to re read this by paragraphs, lol.

You have some good articles, repost please.

49 posted on 02/27/2012 11:41:08 AM PST by annieokie
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To: NCLaw441
" For what it’s worth, I have attended a United Methodist Church for the last 18 years or so, where I teach Sunday School..."

and, for the record, do you also teach them to silence people who have escaped from cults, to ascribe bigotry to refugees relating their traumatic experiences, and shut down discussions of the doctrines and historical evidence of the damage done by this so-called "church"?

do you also silence ex-Moonies? ex-Scientoligists? ex-Muslims?

frankly, as aperson raised in this cult, ordained to the priesthood, president of their teacher's quorum and preparing for my mission when i left, the gall of a sunday School teacher posing as the defender of the rights of a cult so destructive, is nauseating, but not a bit surprising...

i don't give a damn what jersey you wear, sir, you are on the opposite line of scrimmage from the victims of this cult that know it just a bit more intimately than you...and we will not be silenced.

50 posted on 02/27/2012 11:45:52 AM PST by AnTiw1
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