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"Salvation" as defined by the Catholic Catechism
Catholic Catechism, - US Conference of Catholic Bishops ^ | Leap Day - 2-29-2012 | The Catholic Church

Posted on 02/29/2012 8:27:50 AM PST by fishtank

If you look up "salvation" in a Catholic Catechism, what does one find?

I'll show you....

Several years ago, I had an authoritative catechism that didn't even have a glossary entry for "salvation", but the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has a catechism that DOES have an entry for "salvation".

Let's see what they say:


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; catechism; salvation
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(Here's the glossary location:)

"SAINT: The "holy one" who leads a life in union with God through the grace of Christ and receives the reward of eternal life. The Church is called the communion of saints, of the holy ones (823, 946; cf. 828). See Canonization.

SALVATION: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone (169).

SANCTIFYING GRACE: The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us--of making us "perfect," holy, and Christlike (1999)."

(Here's paragraph #169)

http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt3.shtml#art1

169 "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."

1 posted on 02/29/2012 8:27:58 AM PST by fishtank
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To: fishtank

Link:

http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt3.shtml#art1


2 posted on 02/29/2012 8:29:01 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

I got saved by reading God’s Truth in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible:

Ephesians 2:8-9

“For by grace you are saved through faith,

and that not of yourselves,

for it is the gift of God;

Not of works, that no man may glory.”

“Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)”


3 posted on 02/29/2012 8:33:53 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Actually, I got saved by God.

By grace.

Through faith.


4 posted on 02/29/2012 8:34:45 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

841 to 848 is interesting.


5 posted on 02/29/2012 8:34:57 AM PST by Fido969
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To: Fido969

Oh yeah, let’s cut to the chase:

http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.shtml

“841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330

842
The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331

843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332

844
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338”


6 posted on 02/29/2012 8:41:01 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Fido969

Islam denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

7 posted on 02/29/2012 8:42:18 AM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank
Here you go, from the current Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Faith is a grace
153. When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood," but from "my Father who is in Heaven." Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"

The necessity of faith
161. Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life but 'he who endures to the end.'"

8 posted on 02/29/2012 8:48:06 AM PST by aruanan
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To: fishtank

Islam also denies the virgin birth, death on the cross and resurrection!


9 posted on 02/29/2012 8:50:13 AM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: fishtank
169 "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."

You omitted the emphasis present in the original: 169 "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."
10 posted on 02/29/2012 8:54:01 AM PST by aruanan
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To: fishtank
Ephesians 2:8-9

“For by grace you are saved through faith,

and that not of yourselves,

for it is the gift of God;

Not of works, that no man may glory.”

“Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)”


Except that the "that" (the singular neuter demonstrative pronoun) is not referring to faith (a feminine noun); rather it and the subsequent "gift" (a singular neuter noun) are referring back to "the overwhelming wealth" (a singular neuter noun) in the previous verse 7. It's the "overwhelming riches of God's grace" that is the gift that we receive through faith.
11 posted on 02/29/2012 8:59:56 AM PST by aruanan
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To: fishtank

There is also a section on how to worship statues.

And how to dig a tunnel between the convent and rectory.

You’ll have to find these sections yourself, though.

Don’t give up until you find them.


12 posted on 02/29/2012 9:04:22 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: fishtank
There are TEN pages of entries on salvation.

Aren't you cherry picking?

13 posted on 02/29/2012 9:24:52 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fishtank
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."

 

I tyhink you forgot this one!

14 posted on 02/29/2012 9:28:34 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fishtank
Good to see that you're reading the Catechism.

Keep it up.

15 posted on 02/29/2012 9:28:37 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: fishtank
Same difference: Sola Gratia, Sola Fide,Sola Scriptura!

Sola Deo Gloria!

16 posted on 02/29/2012 9:30:01 AM PST by milagro (There is no peace in appeasement.)
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To: fishtank

Jesus is the SON, not the Creator!

God the Father

“In the beginning GOD created.......” Genesis


17 posted on 02/29/2012 9:30:27 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: fishtank
For those who aren't as disingenuous, at best, as you are:

salvation

18 posted on 02/29/2012 9:32:15 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Salvation; fishtank
The Holy Trinity created, not just the Father, not just the Son, not just the Holy Ghost.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made." John 1: 1-3

19 posted on 02/29/2012 9:37:14 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Of course all that is merely the mundane stuff every Catholic should know. The juicy parts about albino assassin monks and the giant supercomputer beneath the Vatican with all the Protestant names and locations only reveals itself if the text is held up to a mirror by candlelight.

Freegards, Vatican Agent 15552#r5 out


20 posted on 02/29/2012 9:46:59 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: aruanan
Except that the "that" (the singular neuter demonstrative pronoun) is not referring to faith (a feminine noun); rather it and the subsequent "gift" (a singular neuter noun) are referring back to "the overwhelming wealth" (a singular neuter noun) in the previous verse 7. It's the "overwhelming riches of God's grace" that is the gift that we receive through faith.

[touto] (that) is neuter singular. [ploutos] (wealth) is masculine singular. It is unlikely that [ploutos] is the antecedent for [touto], otherwise we have an agreement error.

[touto] can reference a verb phrase: "[by grace] are ye saved". We know from many other contexts that "salvation" is the "election of grace" (Romans 11:5-7)

21 posted on 02/29/2012 9:54:06 AM PST by nonsporting
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To: Pyro7480
God is the imminent Creator. Not until verse 26 are the words "Let us" used in scripture.

Yes, according to John 1, the entire Trinity God, Word and Spirit were present at creation.

But Genesis only mentions God (singular) and the Spirit (wind in some translations) moving over the chaos.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth,
18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens."
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.


22 posted on 02/29/2012 10:23:31 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nonsporting
[touto] (that) is neuter singular. [ploutos] (wealth) is masculine singular. It is unlikely that [ploutos] is the antecedent for [touto], otherwise we have an agreement error.

πλουτος is either masculine or neuter. In the case of Ephesians 2:7, it is neuter as seen by the neuter definite article and adjective το υπερβαλλον. There is, therefore, no agreement error.


23 posted on 02/29/2012 10:36:13 AM PST by aruanan
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To: fishtank; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ..

ACTUALLY,

As I warned about 1-3 years ago . . .

The Vatican is already in the process with more and more ‘leaks’ surfacing . . .

of REDEFINING RELIGIOUS REALITY

INCLUDING

what Salvation means:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l3POTjo6iQ&feature=uploademail


24 posted on 02/29/2012 11:28:58 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: fishtank

Social engineers of multiculturalism are now working on a one world religion. They claim Muslims and Christians and Jews worship the same god and denounce anyone who disagrees as a hater. Detractors call it Christlam. Some of the idiot churches are pushing it. Rick Warren for one. Public schools are now pushing it onto Christian children.

Given the success of the massive deception of the homo agenda and global warming, I don’t doubt for a minute that liberals would pull out a massive deception to end Christianity which they claim is the major problem with everything on earth that is not Utopia (sinful). They want to impose the precepts of liberation theology for the new world order imposed on all and presenting something shockingly “superior” like a faith in alien intellegence - based in “science” and in opposition to Christ - would do the trick.

It will be interesting to see how they pull off the one world religion piece of their new world order dreams. Deception will definently be a part of it. And the Left has no problem with slaughtering it’s Christian and Jewish opposition who reject it’s doctrines.


25 posted on 02/29/2012 12:17:23 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: aruanan
There is a struggle in the Catholic church for influence between socialists and conservatives. This scenario proposes the possibility that conservative Catholics lose the struggle over the church to the bad guys in the end days.

Conservative Catholics will realize when it happens and they will be persecuted for fighting against the Left’s total revisionism of the Catholic faith. It is a battle they are familiar with and have managed to win for the most part, in the aftermath of Vatican II.

I trust conservative Catholics to see and reject it if it happens no matter what deception comes their way from liberal church “authority.” They are anchored in Jesus and are not going to abandon Him even if globalist Marxists take over the church through a Pope. I think they will be the fiercest fighters if that should ever happen.

26 posted on 02/29/2012 12:28:25 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson
No socialism.

“Catholic social ministry begins and ends with Jesus Christ,” he said. “If it doesn’t, it isn’t Catholic.”

~Archbishop Chaput


27 posted on 02/29/2012 12:52:11 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: aruanan
πλουτος is either masculine or neuter. In the case of Ephesians 2:7, it is neuter as seen by the neuter definite article and adjective το υπερβαλλον. There is, therefore, no agreement error.

I see what's going on. I have the Majority Greek text.

(Ephesians 2:7) [...hina endeiksetai en tois aiosin tois eperchomenois [ton hyperballonta plouton] tes charitos. (that he might show in the ages that are coming the surprassing riches of his grace).]

You must be using the Critical Text.

In any event there is no need to search for an antecedent in :7, since the verb phrase is natural and immediate. Further, all the English translations have "that" not "those/these" which would be required in English if "riches" (plural) were the antecendent.

28 posted on 02/29/2012 1:08:41 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: Salvation

In the leadership, there is social justice and they supported socialized medicine. They support a lot of redistributionist idiocy in the Catholic Church and hard core socialists are always waiting in the wings for their Pope to revise the faith into liberation theology. I was a Catholic so I am speaking from direct experience. So far, the conservatives have held back total revisionism. But the dark ones wait in the wings for their chance at power and work against the chruch and faith at all times.


29 posted on 02/29/2012 1:13:09 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: Salvation

If you read the original Hebrew it mentions the Alpha Omega (Alef Tav)in the very first line of the bible .


30 posted on 02/29/2012 4:29:40 PM PST by Lera
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To: Salvation
Jesus is the SON, not the Creator!
God the Father
“In the beginning GOD created.......” Genesis

Apparently you don't have a grasp of the Trinity...Jesus is God...

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

31 posted on 02/29/2012 4:33:02 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Salvation
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God's image is Jesus...

32 posted on 02/29/2012 4:36:56 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Salvation
Jesus is the SON, not the Creator! God the Father “In the beginning GOD created.......” Genesis
Gen 1:1 בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃
It actually says Elohim Alef Tav (translated to Greek = Alpha Omega)but the Alef Tav is never translated.
Who is this child Isaiah speaks of ?


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is the Alpha and Omega?

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


He has always existed .

33 posted on 02/29/2012 4:50:51 PM PST by Lera
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To: Salvation

“Jesus is the SON, not the Creator!

God the Father

“In the beginning GOD created.......” Genesis”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

First three verses of John chapter 1.


34 posted on 02/29/2012 5:00:16 PM PST by Apollo5600
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To: aruanan

Notice the emphasis on obtaining, attaining, etc., in these various quotes from the catechism.

Salvation is not something you achieve by having faith and a combination of good works or rituals. Salvation is a free gift that is given to those who confess with their heart that Jesus is Lord. It is something that we are given when we specifically did not deserve it.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The Catechism is trying to have it both ways. It can’t ignore the bible, but at the same time, it cannot allow salvation to be “easy”. They want you to jump through hoops, such as mandatory mass, brown spaculars, confession to priests, and so on and so forth.


35 posted on 02/29/2012 5:07:38 PM PST by Apollo5600
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To: Iscool; Salvation
Salvatiob :Jesus is the SON, not the Creator! God the Father
“In the beginning GOD created.......” Genesis
Iscool :Apparently you don't have a grasp of the Trinity...Jesus is God...
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

______________________________________________________

Guess this confusion happens when you try to make Mary the mother of God and you reduce him to a cracker kept in a little gold house that needs to be sacrificed every week .
Is it a wonder they don't grasp the fact that HE died ONCE to pay for ALL OUR SINS and you are saved by believing ?

36 posted on 02/29/2012 5:32:15 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
Photobucket

Photobucket

37 posted on 02/29/2012 6:08:07 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Apollo5600
Notice the emphasis on obtaining, attaining, etc., in these various quotes from the catechism.

Salvation is not something you achieve by having faith and a combination of good works or rituals.


Notice that you're reading things into the clear statement to try to make it seem otherwise in order, then, to criticize it for the lack of clarity that you yourself created.
38 posted on 02/29/2012 6:27:42 PM PST by aruanan
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To: fishtank; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; VinceASA; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...
Of course - and I am sure you didn't know this - an honest reading of that section of the Catechism would acknowledge that it is headed:

"The Church and non-Christians"

Now that you KNOW this, perhaps you can remember to mention that fact when you post misleading excerpts?

39 posted on 02/29/2012 6:35:46 PM PST by narses
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To: Lera
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Actually, the problem starts with those who call Jesus Christ a liar by denying that Christ meant what he said about His body and His blood.

You know, the sort of people who mock the Eucharist and pretend they're Christian in spite of clearly calling Jesus Christ Himself a liar. Such folks may claim to be Christian but they feel free to call Jesus Christ a liar because they really worship their own, Most High and Holy Self.

You can pick them out in any crowd, though, because like the evil they listen to they hate the body and blood of Christ since they know it's what has defeated them. They're also always afraid of Christ crucified because they know His Crucifixion is our salvation and their sentence to Hell along with their master. That's why they act like a Hollywood B movie Vampire when they see a Crucifix, they do not follow Scripture and preach Christ and Him crucified. Instead, they preach, "me and Jesus are fishin' buddies and since I said the majick words good Ol' Jesus owes me so I can do no wrong".

Jude 1:10 But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted.
Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves and have perished in the contradiction of Core.

The Church teaches us that we're to avoid the sort of folks who call Christ a liar and leave them to the Holy Spirit to deal with. The reason the Church teaches that is because it's what the Scriptures says to do and like everything else the Church teaches it is the same thing Christ and the Apostles taught. Too bad for the pretend Christians who instead follow their own fantasies and preferences rather than the Word of God.

Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ by calling Jesus Christ a liar can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

40 posted on 02/29/2012 6:51:44 PM PST by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: nonsporting
In any event there is no need to search for an antecedent in :7, since the verb phrase is natural and immediate. Further, all the English translations have "that" not "those/these" which would be required in English if "riches" (plural) were the antecendent.

The Greek word translated as "riches" is singular as is the singular "that" refers back to it. And the current translation, such as seen in something like the NIV, screws up the parallelism in this group of verses, the parenthetical "by grace are you saved" that is then repeated and expanded as "for by grace are you saved through faith."

Like this, using the KJV as a template:
But God, who is rich (πλουσιος) in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding richness (το υπερβαλλον πλουτος) of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (for by grace you have been saved through faith) and that [exceeding richness of His grace] is the gift of God, not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Funny how this keeps mysteriously getting scrubbed from FR on Google searches over the past ten years or so while posts about Monica and the cigar are preserved.
41 posted on 02/29/2012 7:19:26 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Salvation

Gospel According to Saint John
Chapter 1

The divinity and incarnation of Christ. John bears witness of him. He begins to call his disciples.

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus is God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. Jesus was always there at the beginning. He is God.


42 posted on 02/29/2012 7:59:43 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: Rashputin
I'm not the one denying his deity.
I'm not the one denying he came in the flesh ,died and was raised .


He had to come in the flesh to be a kinsman redeemer . Anything short of that would not have been able to redeem anyone . What does redeem a debt mean ? It means to PAY THE DEBT IN FULL . That means HE DIED TO PAY THE PRICE FOR YOUR SINS , ALL OF THEM , FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES .



Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.

Titus 3:9 is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit . The GOSPEL is in the OLD TESTAMENT hidden in the names in the genealogy and the Law was given to POINT to CHRIST and TESTIFY of HIM


Hebrew names in the geneology , English meaning in parentheses
Adam (Man)
Seth (Appointed)
Enosh (Mortal)
Kenan (Sorrow)
Mahalalel(The Blessed God)
Jared (Shall come down)
Enoch (Teaching)
Methuselah (His death shall bring)
Lamech (The Despairing)
Noah (Rest, or comfort.)
Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.
There is the Gospel hidden within a genealogy in Genesis. There is some proof that Titus was written by some mortal man that was NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit


NO those who mock HIM are the ones who say HIS BLOOD was not enough to cover our sins . The ones who say that are the liars .


43 posted on 02/29/2012 8:45:56 PM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
Photobucket

LERA REPLIES:

Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.

"Titus 3:9 is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit . The GOSPEL is in the OLD TESTAMENT hidden in the names in the genealogy and the Law was given to POINT to CHRIST and TESTIFY of HIM"

Photobucket

Revelation 22:19

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Photobucket

Photobucket

44 posted on 03/01/2012 12:34:03 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Lera
Lera says, "Titus 3:9 is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit"   ROTFLMAO . . . 

What a clear and definitive example of where, "Your Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture" always leads.

When "that's what Scripture says, but that's not what it means isn't enough, and adopting the Pharisee canon rather than the Christian canon isn't even enough, the "Scripture Alone" folks who call Jesus Christ a liar by denying what Christ said about His flesh and His blood have no problem throwing out portions of the New Testament right along with the portions they've torn out of the Old Testament.

Obviously those who worship their own, Most High and Holy Self while claiming to be Christian don't believe in the Bible or Christ. Yet, they pretend to be Christian when they show up and defame true Christians and otherwise slander the name of Christ, the Bible, and everything else that Christians believe.

A great many Christians have long recognized that it was only a matter of time before the folks who refuse to accept the Christian canon started throwing out parts of the New Testament when they were on the spot for reinterpreting and twisting Scripture or, as in this case, calling Jesus Christ a liar by denying what He said about His flesh and His blood. Well, here we see the Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation in it's purest form. The same form that led to dispensationalism which deliberately hides proof of the deity of Christ, the same form that led to rewrites of the Bible by fringe groups such as the Watchtower crowd, and the same form that led to the Mormon addition of an entire new collection of books they claim is equal to the Scriptures.

Obviously, trying to talk with such folks is just like throwing pearls before swine because they simply muck the pearls around in their wallow, gobble them down, digest them, and pass them out into their comfortable wallow as more waste they can lie in.

45 posted on 03/01/2012 5:15:50 AM PST by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: Lera; Rashputin; narses
Titus 3:9 is not scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit .


46 posted on 03/01/2012 5:37:12 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Lera
"NO those who mock HIM are the ones who say HIS BLOOD was not enough to cover our sins ."

The only folks who deny His blood is sufficient are those who also deny what Christ said about His flesh and His blood being present in the Eucharist.
While such deniers refuse to accept His blood as atonement for their sins, those of us who are Christian take Christ at His word and share in His flesh and His blood at every Eucharist because we know He died for us and shed His blood for us.

Those who do not even recognize the Christian canon of either the Old or New Testament, however, are only worshiping their own, Most High and Holy Self while pretending to believe that His blood is sufficient. After all, if someone denies what Christ said about His flesh and His blood they are calling Him a liar and by definition they don't believe His blood is sufficient because they don't believe Christ is God.

The only ones around here who deny Christ is God are the same ones who claim Titus isn't a part of the inspired Word of God. Now, who could that be?

47 posted on 03/01/2012 10:31:47 AM PST by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: Lera; Rashputin; narses; MarkBsnr

Dear Lera- We will be praying for you.


48 posted on 03/01/2012 11:27:06 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: MarkBsnr

woops my mistake
mistook it for tobit


49 posted on 03/01/2012 12:14:26 PM PST by Lera
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To: aruanan
The Greek word translated as "riches" is singular as is the singular "that" refers back to it. And the current translation, such as seen in something like the NIV, screws up the parallelism in this group of verses, the parenthetical "by grace are you saved" that is then repeated and expanded as "for by grace are you saved through faith."

(I replied earlier this morning, but my post is not showing?! So here is an abbreviated followup.)

A translator ought to produce coherent and grammatical statements. Thus, my previous post. If "that" (English) refers to "riches" (English), THEN it is ungrammatical--an agreement error. 2:8 would need to be written:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and these (riches) not of yourselves: they are the gift of God.

But, it is not.

Verses :7,8 (KJV) are written:

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches (plural; not "richness") of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (singular) not of yourseves: it (singular) is (3rd person singular) the gift of God.

The English translations all reflect the understanding that [touto] does NOT refer to [ploutos], since it renders the demonstrative pronoun as English singular "that" and not "these" and the subsequent verb phrase ("it is") is singular.

50 posted on 03/01/2012 12:31:22 PM PST by nonsporting
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