Skip to comments.Outraged by Mormon proxy baptism? Not this Jew
Posted on 03/01/2012 7:19:27 AM PST by Former Fetus
In a column many years ago, I described how I once attempted to chart a family tree. Most of my father's family had been killed in Auschwitz, and my efforts to trace their genealogy left me, I wrote, with a family tree that "has stumps where branches ought to be'' and "gets narrower, not wider, as it grows.''
A woman phoned me the morning that column appeared. She said she was a Mormon, and wanted to add the names of my father's massacred relatives the column had mentioned about 18 of them by name to the Mormon Church's vast genealogical archives. I told her that I certainly had no objection. Indeed, I was grateful for any gesture that might help preserve some remembrance of these family members whose lives had been so cruelly cut short.
At the time I knew nothing about "baptism by proxy,'' the ritual that Mormons believe gives even souls in the afterlife a chance to accept their faith and thus enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only later did I learn that some Mormons, eager to save the souls of dead Jews, had taken to submitting the names of Holocaust victims for posthumous baptism.
(Excerpt) Read more at jewishworldreview.com ...
Someone should let Jacoby know that even willful conversions while alive do not alter the halachic status of anyone who was born Jewish.
A lot of our people use the Holocaust as an excuse to search the world every day for something to be offended about, are even more offended, as well as severly depressed, if a day passes without being offended.
Your analogy to being cursed by a pagan is appropriate. Unless one believes that a post mortem baptism actually converts the deceased to a religion other than Judaism, what’s the big deal? I’m equally baffled by the practice, and the outrage to it.
If Grandpa Long had known about being baptised a Mormon in life, he probably would have been apoplectic. As he is now where he knows as he is known (and has been since 1870), if he's heard about it at all he probably thinks it's funny.
Of course, by my lights (Catholic) such a baptism is not only ineffective because it is posthumous, but also because it is not Trinitarian.
No harm no foul in my estimation.
And I agree that the Jews have stuff that is way ahead of this on the 'to do list'.
Mormons should keep it to their own who are in the faith and not disrespect others and families who are left behind.
My soul belongs to God and nothing any Mormon, muslim, buddhist, atheist, etc says over my body means a thing.
If they ever come for my coffee, we’ll have a problem.
Hindus were really deep into that stuff back in the days when the Mahabarat/Ramayana was being developed.
I think you recognize the concept.
Frankly, I don't believe in magic, witch-craft, nor binding God with a word. It's so pre-Medieval!
That's covered in the Doctrines and Covenants circa 1836 ~
What you might do to make sure they leave your descendants alone is marry one of my cousins.
Finally, someone who makes perfect sense on this issue, and who says it much better than I ever could.
Very well said by Jeff.
Madonna wears that red cloth around her wrist that is somehow related to her Kabbalism, supposedly for good luck. It’s extreme chutzpa to think that we can manipulate the Divine will.
Likewise, it’s extreme chutzpa to think that post mortem baptizing of someone makes that person a Mormon or a Christian, when that person was by choice a Jew in life. But, unless we believe that it works, then what’s the big deal - for any side of this argument?
There’s some excellent genealogical research that results from these “baptisms.” Save time and money by letting Mormons do the heavy-lifting.
“Dead-dunking” is one way the Mormons purport to claim that their conversion numbers are ever-rising.
This and the LDS’ vast genealogical research to that end make Chicago-style dead voter registration look amateurish in comparison.
“All of the posters here who have said that they “wouldn’t be worried” if, e.g., a pagan cast a spell upon them should nonetheless reocgnize and accept the right of Jews (and others) to be offended by the Mormon practice of posthumous baptism.”
Some people can’t be happy unless they are offended by something. Maybe today I’ll be offended by those who are offended. Then tomorrow, some other pleasurable outrage. Have a happy (offensive) day!
Why would you want to defend and promote this practice?
What has driven you to jump in and advance Mormonism?
You have become a pro-Mormonism activist, not indifferent.
The Mormons are stalking us and our loved ones, to use us, by name, with someone speaking in our voice, in their cult ceremonies, done in secret by cult leaders like Bishop Mitt Romney.
Frankly, I don't care how offended they get. It's none of their business.
I think of everybody who gets offended at what I do, think or say as being rather offensive themselves ~ just hope I don't get angry ~ there's some "hidden redhead" stuff in there.
So what ~ it’s like somebody reading a phone book.
To you, evidently not to most people that hear of this sick practice and stalking.
Why do you take a stand against Jews and Christians for Mormonism, which is what you are doing.
So far the Holocaust Jews have had the most success fighting the Mormon cult on this , wouldn’t all the pro-Mormon energies be better focused at Jewish sites?
“If, for example, a pagan came and put a curse on me, would that worry me?”
Perhaps a better analogy would be a pagan putting a blessing on you. Means nothing, but it’s better than them wishing ill of you. Not saying it isn’t offensive to some folks either way, but what would be more offensive, dead dunking someone and believing it is a good thing for them or cursing the dead to burn in hell?
I have wondered why we know about it when someone dead gets baptised. They seem to just put up who they have baptised on websites as far as I can tell. What I dont get is why they agree to stop when asked. It seems pretty cruel to deprive someone of a second chance to accept salvation just because someone living wants them to. Why would anyone agree to stop that if that’s what one truly believes?
You are totally nuts. Go away.
Leave you alone to protect Mormon abuse of us and our families, and defend their practice, I don’t think so.
Why do you feel energized to take their side on the issue, why not the Jews side, or the Christians?
I’m not taking any side at all EXCEPT ONE ~ I don’t believe in magic and you can’t make me.
I don’t know what you call Christianity, but quit trying to shut up Jews and Christians about the despised and sick practices of Bishop Romney and his Mormon cult.
Most of us will continue to fight the good fight against Mormonism.
Religious practices are what they are and that’s what they do. Since “magic” does not work you have no need to be concerned with it.
You want to defend the Mormon practice to those of us that condemn it.
You chose your agenda and are pushing it.
We have as much right to be offended as the Mormons who claim the right to desecrate the memory of our dead.
We will speak out (as is our right) as long as the Mormons keep necro-dunking people into membership in their cult.
Jeff Jacoby is thought of as conservative, he is another on the growing list of conservatives (including some on Breitbart’s site) who will be drawn into mainstreaming and selling Mormonism to the Christian right and conservative base.
I got this from the Washington Post. Mormons did not try to convert blacks after death?
“The next year, in the face of a potential NAACP lawsuit, the hierarchy quietly reversed another policy against performing baptisms of the dead and allowed other sacred rites for people who had any Negro blood in their veins. But the major issue was still the priesthood.”
LOL! Your IQ must match Obama’s! Where did I defend, promote or advance Mormonism or any of their practices? I know it will get me flamed, but I happen to think Mormonism is a cult. There! I said it! Are you happy now? All I did was to agree with Jacoby that one should not get all upset about something that one does not believe have any effect. And yes, that Jews have far more serious problems facing them than proxy baptism.
All I did was to agree with Jacoby that one should not get all upset about something that one does not believe have any effect.
Gosh that was easy, you asked and answered in your own post, on your own thread.
This is an article trying to "defend, which "promotes", which undeniably "advances" Mormonism and it's "practices".
Whatever floats your boat. aa
Good. What’s good for the goose.
Gee! And I thought it was an article about a Jew who is just as surprised at other Jews reaction to proxy baptism as he is to the practice of proxy baptism itself! Thanks for letting me know what I really, really think. </sarcasm>
You told us what you think, you think that we should drop our protests against this Mormon cult practice, you even posted an article and a thread to support and advance your view.
I’m telling you that none of us should do that, we should all resist Mormonism and this sick practice.
As everybody knows the Catholics recognize "saints". Early in the Protestant Reformation (mostly in England in this case) many Protestants got the idea that the belief in saints was a very bad idea so they went about RENAMING all the various religious buildings and streets named after Catholic saints.
While a windfall business for the sign painters guild it did nothing FOR anyone and the general public continued to refer to St. Mary's Cathedral as St. Mary's, and St. Gildas Pub as St. Gildas Pub.
Today hardly anyone remembers that battle over dead people had gone on. We call places whatever the owners want them called, and we name our streets as we please.
Using a saint's name on an address has no reflection on your own religious beliefs, nor should it. If you think it does that's a personal problem, not something of general concern.
It's the same here. If you don't like what Mormons do in their own religion, don't participate.
You can do what you want for Mormonism, but I will continue to fight Mormonism’s war against Christianity.