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Outraged by Mormon proxy baptism? Not this Jew
Jewish World Review ^ | 3/1/2012 | Jeff Jacoby

Posted on 03/01/2012 7:19:27 AM PST by Former Fetus

In a column many years ago, I described how I once attempted to chart a family tree. Most of my father's family had been killed in Auschwitz, and my efforts to trace their genealogy left me, I wrote, with a family tree that "has stumps where branches ought to be'' and "gets narrower, not wider, as it grows.''

A woman phoned me the morning that column appeared. She said she was a Mormon, and wanted to add the names of my father's massacred relatives — the column had mentioned about 18 of them by name — to the Mormon Church's vast genealogical archives. I told her that I certainly had no objection. Indeed, I was grateful for any gesture that might help preserve some remembrance of these family members whose lives had been so cruelly cut short.

At the time I knew nothing about "baptism by proxy,'' the ritual that Mormons believe gives even souls in the afterlife a chance to accept their faith and thus enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only later did I learn that some Mormons, eager to save the souls of dead Jews, had taken to submitting the names of Holocaust victims for posthumous baptism.

(Excerpt) Read more at jewishworldreview.com ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Judaism; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: judaism; mormonism; proxybaptism
Here's some common sense, hard to find these days! I like the way the author puts it: "By my lights, their efforts to make salvation available to millions of deceased strangers were ineffectual". It made me think. If, for example, a pagan came and put a curse on me, would that worry me? The answer is "certainly not!" Hopefully I would not think twice about it. Maybe that's the way Jews should take Mormon proxy baptism. Again, to quote the author, "the Jewish people have very real, very dangerous enemies. Mormons undergoing peaceful rituals in their own temples aren't on the list."
1 posted on 03/01/2012 7:19:35 AM PST by Former Fetus
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To: Former Fetus
no after-the-fact rites in this world can possibly change the Jewishness of the men, women, children, and babies whom the Nazis, in their obsessive hatred singled out for extermination.

Someone should let Jacoby know that even willful conversions while alive do not alter the halachic status of anyone who was born Jewish.

ML/NJ

2 posted on 03/01/2012 7:27:48 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: Former Fetus

A lot of our people use the Holocaust as an excuse to search the world every day for something to be offended about, are even more offended, as well as severly depressed, if a day passes without being offended.

Your analogy to being cursed by a pagan is appropriate. Unless one believes that a post mortem baptism actually converts the deceased to a religion other than Judaism, what’s the big deal? I’m equally baffled by the practice, and the outrage to it.


3 posted on 03/01/2012 7:27:57 AM PST by Daveinyork
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To: Former Fetus
I have a cousin who converted to a rather stringent splinter sect of the LDS. He has baptised everybody in our extensive family tree, including our common gg grandfather who was a Baptist deacon and from all reports a rather short-tempered man.

If Grandpa Long had known about being baptised a Mormon in life, he probably would have been apoplectic. As he is now where he knows as he is known (and has been since 1870), if he's heard about it at all he probably thinks it's funny.

Of course, by my lights (Catholic) such a baptism is not only ineffective because it is posthumous, but also because it is not Trinitarian.

No harm no foul in my estimation.

And I agree that the Jews have stuff that is way ahead of this on the 'to do list'.

4 posted on 03/01/2012 7:28:24 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Former Fetus
Mormons undergoing peaceful rituals in their own temples aren't on the list."

Mormons should keep it to their own who are in the faith and not disrespect others and families who are left behind.

5 posted on 03/01/2012 7:29:13 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Former Fetus

My soul belongs to God and nothing any Mormon, muslim, buddhist, atheist, etc says over my body means a thing.

If they ever come for my coffee, we’ll have a problem.


6 posted on 03/01/2012 7:47:48 AM PST by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: Daveinyork
Dave, it's a belief in "word magic" ~ sometimes described as the belief that a "word can bind God".

Hindus were really deep into that stuff back in the days when the Mahabarat/Ramayana was being developed.

I think you recognize the concept.

Frankly, I don't believe in magic, witch-craft, nor binding God with a word. It's so pre-Medieval!

7 posted on 03/01/2012 7:56:43 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: dragonblustar
It's their theology; not mine; not yours. But I have an advantage over you guys ~ bunch of my ancestors were involved in a MUTUAL EXCOMMUNICATION with the Mormons ~ Joseph Smith banned them from their "book" ~ which is this enormous genealogy thing.

That's covered in the Doctrines and Covenants circa 1836 ~

What you might do to make sure they leave your descendants alone is marry one of my cousins.

8 posted on 03/01/2012 8:01:13 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Former Fetus
The discovery didn't trouble me at all. In Judaism, conversion after death is a concept without meaning; no after-the-fact rites in this world can possibly change the Jewishness of the men, women, children, and babies whom the Nazis, in their obsessive hatred, singled out for extermination. I found the Mormons' belief eccentric, not offensive. By my lights, their efforts to make salvation available to millions of deceased strangers were ineffectual. But plainly they were sincere, and intended as a kindness.

Finally, someone who makes perfect sense on this issue, and who says it much better than I ever could.

9 posted on 03/01/2012 8:01:45 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Former Fetus

Very well said by Jeff.


10 posted on 03/01/2012 8:09:54 AM PST by NonValueAdded (Limbaugh: Tim Tebow miracle: "He had atheists praying to God that he would lose.")
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To: muawiyah

Madonna wears that red cloth around her wrist that is somehow related to her Kabbalism, supposedly for good luck. It’s extreme chutzpa to think that we can manipulate the Divine will.

Likewise, it’s extreme chutzpa to think that post mortem baptizing of someone makes that person a Mormon or a Christian, when that person was by choice a Jew in life. But, unless we believe that it works, then what’s the big deal - for any side of this argument?


11 posted on 03/01/2012 8:17:12 AM PST by Daveinyork
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To: Former Fetus

There’s some excellent genealogical research that results from these “baptisms.” Save time and money by letting Mormons do the heavy-lifting.


12 posted on 03/01/2012 8:25:10 AM PST by Oratam
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To: Former Fetus

Hack Mormon.


13 posted on 03/01/2012 8:31:08 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Former Fetus
All of the posters here who have said that they "wouldn't be worried" if, e.g., a pagan cast a spell upon them should nonetheless reocgnize and accept the right of Jews (and others) to be offended by the Mormon practice of posthumous baptism.

Regards,

14 posted on 03/01/2012 9:00:07 AM PST by alexander_busek
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To: alexander_busek

“Dead-dunking” is one way the Mormons purport to claim that their conversion numbers are ever-rising.

This and the LDS’ vast genealogical research to that end make Chicago-style dead voter registration look amateurish in comparison.


15 posted on 03/01/2012 9:30:20 AM PST by elcid1970 ("Deport all Muslims. Nuke Mecca now. Death to Islam means freedom for all mankind.")
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To: alexander_busek

“All of the posters here who have said that they “wouldn’t be worried” if, e.g., a pagan cast a spell upon them should nonetheless reocgnize and accept the right of Jews (and others) to be offended by the Mormon practice of posthumous baptism.”

Some people can’t be happy unless they are offended by something. Maybe today I’ll be offended by those who are offended. Then tomorrow, some other pleasurable outrage. Have a happy (offensive) day!


16 posted on 03/01/2012 10:03:31 AM PST by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: Former Fetus

Why would you want to defend and promote this practice?

What has driven you to jump in and advance Mormonism?

You have become a pro-Mormonism activist, not indifferent.


17 posted on 03/01/2012 10:38:39 AM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: Oratam
There’s some excellent genealogical research that results from these “baptisms.”

The Mormons are stalking us and our loved ones, to use us, by name, with someone speaking in our voice, in their cult ceremonies, done in secret by cult leaders like Bishop Mitt Romney.

18 posted on 03/01/2012 10:42:57 AM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: alexander_busek
There are, of course, Jews who are offended at "the name of Jesus", or Christian prayer (gotta' warn 'em it's coming up so they can get out of there 'til it's over), or even offended at the idea SOMEBODY ELSE, e.g. Christians, might make use of their holy books.

Frankly, I don't care how offended they get. It's none of their business.

I think of everybody who gets offended at what I do, think or say as being rather offensive themselves ~ just hope I don't get angry ~ there's some "hidden redhead" stuff in there.

19 posted on 03/01/2012 10:44:28 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: ansel12

So what ~ it’s like somebody reading a phone book.


20 posted on 03/01/2012 10:45:15 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

To you, evidently not to most people that hear of this sick practice and stalking.

Why do you take a stand against Jews and Christians for Mormonism, which is what you are doing.

So far the Holocaust Jews have had the most success fighting the Mormon cult on this , wouldn’t all the pro-Mormon energies be better focused at Jewish sites?


21 posted on 03/01/2012 11:05:25 AM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: Former Fetus

“If, for example, a pagan came and put a curse on me, would that worry me?”

Perhaps a better analogy would be a pagan putting a blessing on you. Means nothing, but it’s better than them wishing ill of you. Not saying it isn’t offensive to some folks either way, but what would be more offensive, dead dunking someone and believing it is a good thing for them or cursing the dead to burn in hell?

I have wondered why we know about it when someone dead gets “baptised.” They seem to just put up who they have “baptised” on websites as far as I can tell. What I don’t get is why they agree to stop when asked. It seems pretty cruel to deprive someone of a second chance to accept salvation just because someone living wants them to. Why would anyone agree to stop that if that’s what one truly believes?

Freegards


22 posted on 03/01/2012 11:06:28 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: ansel12

You are totally nuts. Go away.


23 posted on 03/01/2012 1:03:36 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Go away?

Leave you alone to protect Mormon abuse of us and our families, and defend their practice, I don’t think so.

Why do you feel energized to take their side on the issue, why not the Jews side, or the Christians?


24 posted on 03/01/2012 1:11:04 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: ansel12

I’m not taking any side at all EXCEPT ONE ~ I don’t believe in magic and you can’t make me.


25 posted on 03/01/2012 1:17:46 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

I don’t know what you call Christianity, but quit trying to shut up Jews and Christians about the despised and sick practices of Bishop Romney and his Mormon cult.

Most of us will continue to fight the good fight against Mormonism.


26 posted on 03/01/2012 1:32:51 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: ansel12

Religious practices are what they are and that’s what they do. Since “magic” does not work you have no need to be concerned with it.


27 posted on 03/01/2012 2:06:35 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You want to defend the Mormon practice to those of us that condemn it.

You chose your agenda and are pushing it.


28 posted on 03/01/2012 2:12:24 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: ansel12; muawiyah

We have as much right to be offended as the Mormons who claim the right to desecrate the memory of our dead.

We will speak out (as is our right) as long as the Mormons keep necro-dunking people into membership in their cult.


29 posted on 03/01/2012 2:20:01 PM PST by colorcountry (In order to practice tolerance, I must first disagree. But when I do, I'm accused of being intoleran)
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To: colorcountry

Jeff Jacoby is thought of as conservative, he is another on the growing list of conservatives (including some on Breitbart’s site) who will be drawn into mainstreaming and selling Mormonism to the Christian right and conservative base.


30 posted on 03/01/2012 2:44:54 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: colorcountry

I got this from the Washington Post. Mormons did not try to convert blacks after death?

“The next year, in the face of a potential NAACP lawsuit, the hierarchy quietly reversed another policy against performing baptisms of the dead and allowed other sacred rites “for people who had any Negro blood in their veins.” But the major issue was still the priesthood.”


31 posted on 03/01/2012 3:11:31 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: ansel12

LOL! Your IQ must match Obama’s! Where did I defend, promote or advance Mormonism or any of their practices? I know it will get me flamed, but I happen to think Mormonism is a cult. There! I said it! Are you happy now? All I did was to agree with Jacoby that one should not get all upset about something that one does not believe have any effect. And yes, that Jews have far more serious problems facing them than proxy baptism.


32 posted on 03/01/2012 3:56:25 PM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus
Where did I defend, promote or advance Mormonism or any of their practices?

All I did was to agree with Jacoby that one should not get all upset about something that one does not believe have any effect.

Gosh that was easy, you asked and answered in your own post, on your own thread.

This is an article trying to "defend, which "promotes", which undeniably "advances" Mormonism and it's "practices".

33 posted on 03/01/2012 4:12:48 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: colorcountry

Whatever floats your boat. aa


34 posted on 03/01/2012 4:39:27 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Good. What’s good for the goose.


35 posted on 03/01/2012 5:02:32 PM PST by colorcountry (In order to practice tolerance, I must first disagree. But when I do, I'm accused of being intoleran)
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To: ansel12

Gee! And I thought it was an article about a Jew who is just as surprised at other Jews reaction to proxy baptism as he is to the practice of proxy baptism itself! Thanks for letting me know what I really, really think. </sarcasm>


36 posted on 03/01/2012 5:14:40 PM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

You told us what you think, you think that we should drop our protests against this Mormon cult practice, you even posted an article and a thread to support and advance your view.

I’m telling you that none of us should do that, we should all resist Mormonism and this sick practice.


37 posted on 03/01/2012 5:21:38 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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To: ansel12
This practice has absolutely no effect on anything or anybody.

As everybody knows the Catholics recognize "saints". Early in the Protestant Reformation (mostly in England in this case) many Protestants got the idea that the belief in saints was a very bad idea so they went about RENAMING all the various religious buildings and streets named after Catholic saints.

While a windfall business for the sign painters guild it did nothing FOR anyone and the general public continued to refer to St. Mary's Cathedral as St. Mary's, and St. Gildas Pub as St. Gildas Pub.

Today hardly anyone remembers that battle over dead people had gone on. We call places whatever the owners want them called, and we name our streets as we please.

Using a saint's name on an address has no reflection on your own religious beliefs, nor should it. If you think it does that's a personal problem, not something of general concern.

It's the same here. If you don't like what Mormons do in their own religion, don't participate.

38 posted on 03/01/2012 5:33:48 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You can do what you want for Mormonism, but I will continue to fight Mormonism’s war against Christianity.


39 posted on 03/01/2012 6:00:01 PM PST by ansel12 (Newt Gingrich knows how to deconstruct Obama in a head to head race, and that is what it will take.)
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