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Who is Mitt Romney? [Ex-Lds author reveals why Mitt's wishy-washy culture waffles & flip-flops]
Renew America ^ | Feb. 10, 2012 | Stephen Stone

Posted on 03/08/2012 5:57:03 AM PST by Colofornian

As the Republican establishment redoubles its efforts to anoint Mitt Romney the GOP presidential nominee (an outcome likely to ensure a second term for Barack Obama), the need to understand Mitt Romney increases.

What makes Mitt the kind of person he is — ruthlessly opportunistic, dishonest, insincere, willing to say anything for advantage, lacking in conscience, preoccupied with appearance, etc., on the one hand, yet squeaky clean, family-oriented, disciplined, boring, and predictable, on the other?

My new e-book, A Mormon Story, sheds light on the culture that produced Mitt Romney.

The book reveals a value system that ultimately has no absolutes, other than the need to conform to deep-seated, highly-controlling authoritarianism that pervades LDS culture.

That culture emphasizes a Mormon tradition known as "eternal progression" — undoctrinal spiritual evolution in which even God is changing. It also emphasizes the notion that the latest words of governing church leaders trump the Word of God found in the scriptures (including LDS scripture). As a result, Mormons have little incentive to inform themselves about what the scriptures call the "doctrine of Christ" (since they consider that doctrine subject to change); or to rely directly on God to know His will in applying that doctrine to their lives; or to sacrifice their security, comfort, or needs to do what is right, above all else.

In such a system, truth is relative, LDS leaders become the only reliable authority, and individual members are subservient.

Outwardly, as is well known, Mormons appear upright — but that is due largely to intense pressure to conform to the norms of Mormon society, and to uphold the Mormon church's nurtured image of conventionality. Inwardly, Mormons are less independently moral, principled, and informed than they may seem (something LDS scripture quotes God Himself as saying about them). They are trained to be dependent on church authorities to tell them what to think and do, in ways non-Mormons would have difficulty relating to. They behave much like a "cult" — one centered in obedience to powerful, dictatorial leaders.*

As a culture, Mormons therefore tend to lack moral courage — of the sort that would enable them to rise above such social pressure and truly lead out in solving the problems and paradoxes of real life. They are inclined to exemplify not firm leadership, but timidity masquerading as normalcy.

Watch Mitt in the debates. There's fear behind his practiced façade.

Sound intriguing? You bet (as Mormons would say). To read A Mormon Story, click here.

It's time for the culture of Mormonism — its relativistic, authoritarian values and traditions — to receive the kind of scrutiny often reserved for controversial elements of LDS doctrine. Americans deserve to know.

*To be fair, I should stress that my characterization of "Mormons" is just broad enough to create a clear picture of the traditions, values, and tendencies that do — in fact — permeate Mormon culture. I don't mean to imply there aren't exceptions among sincere LDS people. Indeed, I counted myself as an exception — before I was excommunicated for "disobeying" church leaders who illegally demanded I abandon my political livelihood. I know several LDS members who have fundamental integrity, and who therefore struggle with the undoctinal demands and contradictions placed on them by LDS culture.


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; ldsantichristian; mittromney; mormon; mormontrashing; relativistic
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From the article: What makes Mitt the kind of person he is — ruthlessly opportunistic, dishonest, insincere, willing to say anything for advantage, lacking in conscience, preoccupied with appearance, etc., on the one hand, yet squeaky clean, family-oriented, disciplined, boring, and predictable, on the other? My new e-book, A Mormon Story, sheds light on the culture that produced Mitt Romney.

Good question. (It's one I've raised -- and answered numerous times on various FR threads)

The answer, says this ex-Mormon in the book referenced above is: (From the article): The book reveals a value system that ultimately has no absolutes, other than the need to conform to deep-seated, highly-controlling authoritarianism that pervades LDS culture. That culture emphasizes a Mormon tradition known as "eternal progression" — undoctrinal spiritual evolution in which even God is changing. It also emphasizes the notion that the latest words of governing church leaders trump the Word of God found in the scriptures (including LDS scripture).

IOW, EVERYTHING in Mormonism -- from its theology to its social practices -- is up for potential change at the whim of the Mormon god. Bottom-line: There is no bottom-line in Mormonism! There is no bedrock doctrine that cannot be replaced!

There isn't even an Ultimate god in Mormonism...Nobody knows who the gods are that were part of the council which appointed the god of this world -- a former man, say Mormons.

So there's not even any Ultimate Authority in Mormonism!

1 posted on 03/08/2012 5:57:08 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: What makes Mitt the kind of person he is — ruthlessly opportunistic, dishonest, insincere, willing to say anything for advantage, lacking in conscience, preoccupied with appearance, etc., on the one hand, yet squeaky clean, family-oriented, disciplined, boring, and predictable, on the other? My new e-book, A Mormon Story, sheds light on the culture that produced Mitt Romney.

Good question. (It's one I've raised -- and answered numerous times on various FR threads)

So how have I addressed that in the past?

One of my key points in earlier posts is I attempted to draw an "If-Then" conclusion: If LDS theology effects social positions, then patterns of evolving theology and evolving social positions yields leaders who are all too comfortable with shifting both theology AND social positions.

We have to include the psychology of certain aspects of theological history. If a religious leader views God & historical faith leaders as ones who constantly do 100% about-faces on social positions...where theology & social positions not only "evolve" but involve total u-turns, then my premise is that when you have a leader like Mitt who has already displayed a penchant for multiple total u-turns THEN that = a socially (as in social issues) unpredictable leader.

We can agree that Mitt is totally unpredictable on social issues based upon his personal track record and based upon the historic leaders and the "god" he elevates as his role models

Therefore, what threads like these show all those FREEPERS who keep saying how "aligned" we are with Mormons re: "common values" is that the Mormon church can be liberal when it wants to...and it's been awfully convenient for that to happen more and more the last few years.

Examples:

* Homosexual rights: Mormon church supports Salt Lake City's protections for gay rights and Mormons Back Salt Lake City Gay Rights Laws

Illegal Immigration liberal policy nuances...In 2011 the Lds church had TWO of its U.S. bishops deported.

Abortion: The official Mormon church position (see
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_abor.htm) is that it's "OK" for an abortion if...
(a) Incest needs to be covered up;
(b) The baby is disabled and needs to be destroyed accordingly
(c) Mom's "health" (whatever that means...distinct from saying "life" of the mother)
(d) If the abortionist says it's "OK"
(e) If the Mormon god says it's "OK" in prayer...

E alone above could "justify" abortion to individual Mormons as long it overrides the person's conscience!

And if you need further evidence of just how liberal the Mormon church leadership can be when it wants to be, then look at how Harry Reid was welcomed with such warm open arms by an all BYU student & faculty occasion for Reid to speak there: Reid gets warm reception at BYU

As I've REPEATEDLY said: Too many FREEPERS somehow think that Romney's wishy-washiness is "unconnected" to his faith. Well, the Mormon leadership has shown it can be morally wishy-washy whenever it's "convenient."

It was "convenient" for the Mormon church leadership to pass homosexual rights for Salt Lake City 'cause they were coming off of what the MSM regarded "negative" media play re: Prop 8 in CA.

It was "convenient" for their missionary program to support aspects of immigrants being here illegally.

And, at times, it's been "convenient" for daughters of Mormon leaders and others to get abortions.

Certainly, it's been "convenient" for them to have a Harry Reid in Congress "watch out" for Mormon church interests.

Historically, it was "convenient" for the Mormon god to change his mind about skin color...even if he didn't change Mormon racist "sacred book" passages depicting open racism. And it was "convenient" for the Mormon church to slowly rid itself of open polygamy because their church was threatened, their menfolk were in jail, and they wanted statehood. Even then, it was "convenient" for their original leader, Joseph Smith, to engage in sex with many women even though his own penned Book of Mormon called polygamy an "abomination."

2 posted on 03/08/2012 6:01:04 AM PST by Colofornian ( Those who militate vs. 'sola scriptura' lack the character of nobility (Acts 17:11))
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To: Colofornian
And can you just imagine this dweeb in a debate with Obama??

“Oh yeah? how much you wanna bet the economy is worse off then before, huh? I'll bet you $10,000 (reaches out his hand pathetically).. heh heh heh”

3 posted on 03/08/2012 6:06:02 AM PST by Mr. K (Were the Soviet-Era propagandists as gleefully willing as our Lame-stream Media?)
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To: Colofornian
ruthlessly opportunistic, dishonest, insincere, willing to say anything for advantage, lacking in conscience, preoccupied with appearance, etc., on the one hand, yet squeaky clean, family-oriented, disciplined, boring, and predictable, on the other?

IOW your typical politician.

4 posted on 03/08/2012 6:10:56 AM PST by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: Colofornian

That sounds a lot like the god of Islam. One cannot know what Allah really wants, except what the Imam tells you Allah wants and Allah is not bound by law either and could change his mind at a moment’s notice.


5 posted on 03/08/2012 6:11:32 AM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: Colofornian

“...In such a system, truth is relative, LDS leaders become the only reliable authority, and individual members are subservient...” That sounds like Islam.


6 posted on 03/08/2012 6:13:24 AM PST by WellyP (REAL)
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To: Colofornian

I support Newt-
what makes Romney a crappy candidate
isn’t Mormonism-
Mormons have borrowed from the best of
Judeo-Christian values.
Mitt’s more of a typical polititian,
very disappointing, but infinately better than a Marxist-

hey that’s a good campaign slogan-
“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s better than a Marxist”


7 posted on 03/08/2012 6:19:00 AM PST by paythefiddler (redefeat communism)
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To: All
So...Mitt's ability to "evolve" back & forth, back & forth, is really culturally rooted.

Even the primary Mormon "god" Mitt focuses on evolved.

Per Mormon "scripture," he began as a sort of primordial goo -- "intelligence." (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33). (Oh, & per that source, so did you!)

In fact, per D&C 93, the Mormon "god" is no more eternal past than you or I or animals. We've all just always existed!

Then we all "evolved" into "spirit babies" when we were supposedly born to a Mormon goddess (or more than one) near Kolob. We're not sure where exactly the Mormon "god" evolved in a similar manner -- but he also then was sent to a planet to become a man.

At some point, the "god" of the man who wants to represent the United States before the entire world god got his "resume'" accepted by the "council of gods" -- and they appointed him god of planet earth. And his spiritual evolution supposedly invites one where Mitt can also become a god and rule his own world, receiving worship and prayer from his to-be-born spirit kids.

Of course, all this change & transformation by the mormon god sparked quite a theological debate within Mormonism thru the generations over whether the Mormon god increases in knowledge. For a while, the obvious answer was "yes." I mean, how can you go from primordial intelligence to spirit kid to man to God without increasing in knowledge in what Mormons call "eternal progression?"

But then other Mormon theologians came along & said that was "absurd" that God would increase in knowledge.

Mormonism still hasn't settled -- let alone cared to revisit -- that debate.

Hey, we know theologians tend to debate.

But, technically, Mormonism has no official "theologians." In fact, what they've touted over & over & over & over again is that the Mormon "god" won't let their "prophet" stray...and thereby the church won't stray into total apostasy...(Never mind that they believe that Jesus Christ as the Head of the early church somehow let that church go 100% apostate)

Therefore Mormonism touts being a DIRECT connection to the very vocal chords of its god. If that's the case, there is no need for debate: When the "prophet" & "apostles" speak, all is "settled."

So why the debate? And why hasn't Mormonism ever been able to answer simply: Does God increase in knowledge? Has the Mormon god evolved?

8 posted on 03/08/2012 6:26:00 AM PST by Colofornian ( Those who militate vs. 'sola scriptura' lack the character of nobility (Acts 17:11))
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To: Colofornian

OBEY AND PAY

I grew up in the midst of mormons.


9 posted on 03/08/2012 6:32:38 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Colofornian

I wish all of this would be exposed while we are still going through the primary as I believe there are many people that aren’t aware of his Mormonism.


10 posted on 03/08/2012 6:32:38 AM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: Don Corleone; All
IOW your typical politician

Exactly.

Now allow me to add the other dimension which helps foster the duplicity we see.

Lds chooses from amongst its laity prominent, successful professional businessmen to become members of its spiritual heirarchy -- what they call "General Authorities."

It's probably almost 100% -- if not 100% -- of them these days who have a professional/business background. And it's been that way for a while now...at least since Utah moved from a more rural setting.

Now what is all-important to the business community?

CONTROLLING your image. PR. Marketing.

Well, that dovetales with duplicity. Damn the truth -- just do the market demographic research...label & color your product accordingly...and sell, sell, sell & use whatever distortion sells!

No wonder so many former Mormon leaders like Mitt Romney are "perfect" for the political field.

Add to it that they've all been proselytizer-door to door peddlers as Lds missionaries -- and have been toughened by daily constant rejection -- and you have professionally groomed candidates from whom it's extremely difficult from which to extract reality.

11 posted on 03/08/2012 6:34:46 AM PST by Colofornian ( Those who militate vs. 'sola scriptura' lack the character of nobility (Acts 17:11))
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To: Colofornian
So America's choice in November will be between an anti-American left-wing activist, and a rudderless, unprincipled narcissist who will inevitably cater to left-wing pressure and act like a liberal too?

We're dead.

12 posted on 03/08/2012 6:40:42 AM PST by mikeus_maximus (I won't vote for Romney, period. Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil.)
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To: Colofornian
And the money line:
 Mitt the kind of person he is — ruthlessly opportunistic, dishonest, insincere, willing to say anything for advantage, lacking in conscience, preoccupied with appearance, etc., on the one hand, yet squeaky clean, family-oriented, disciplined, boring, and predictable, on the other?

13 posted on 03/08/2012 6:44:45 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: paythefiddler
“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s "disappointingly" better than a Marxist”
14 posted on 03/08/2012 6:48:48 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: mikeus_maximus

rudderless, unprincipled narcissist who will inevitably cater to left-wing pressure and act like a liberal too?

Why do you have to point others faults?

/s


15 posted on 03/08/2012 6:51:43 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Colofornian; Don Corleone; All
And to add to this last graph of mine -- where I said: Add to it that they've all been proselytizer-door to door peddlers as Lds missionaries -- and have been toughened by daily constant rejection -- and you have professionally groomed candidates from whom it's extremely difficult from which to extract reality.

To this very day, the Mormon church owned DesNews is printing articles on how Mitt is still having trouble getting the Evangelical vote...claiming that if exit pollsters asked more Qs re: common values -- vs. doctrinal focus -- there would be more "alignment" between us...

And we see that misnomer repeatedly endlessly on FR as well: That Mormons share common "values."

The problem is that we see in people like Romney, Huntsman & Harry Reid -- that Mormon leaders have no seeming "core values." (I won't say that's true of ALL Mormons; it certainly seems to be the case of most, if not all, Mormon leaders).

They are gumby.

The New Testament says true Christians are living epistles -- letters to be read by all. And it's true we ALL have trouble remaining legible for others to clearly read. I'm not claiming that Christians don't have their own problems in this area.

Yet with Mormon leaders, they are living press releases -- and there's just no way you're going to get a "read" on their core -- other than you know their core is revolving...evolving...flipping...flopping...waffling...wishy...washy...

They'll probably "market" it as C.P.C.C. -- customized political constituent "care" -- so that at least, you, too, might become one of those "pool of dependencies" that the other socialists ... the Dems ... rely upon.

I mean don't you Bay State (MA) citizens feel all warm & cozy & "government-sovereigned" by RomneyCare these past 5+ years? See tagline

16 posted on 03/08/2012 6:53:32 AM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

place marker


17 posted on 03/08/2012 7:01:22 AM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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To: paythefiddler

Two things about your post.
What you said about mormonism probably means you know nothing about it.
Romney is who he is because of his mormonism not in spite of it.


18 posted on 03/08/2012 7:05:02 AM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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To: mikeus_maximus

No if Romney wins, the choice will be between a guy who thinks he will be god and a guy who thinks he already is.


19 posted on 03/08/2012 7:06:50 AM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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To: mikeus_maximus; All
So America's choice in November will be between an anti-American left-wing activist, and a rudderless, unprincipled narcissist who will inevitably cater to left-wing pressure and act like a liberal too? We're dead.

Yes. Either way, we're ripe for judgment...and not just for whom our citizenry elevates as "ideal" candidates.

Somebody said long ago: If God doesn't judge America, He'll have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah.

...a rudderless, unprincipled narcissist...

Let's remove Mormonism for just a second -- but keep one aspect of it as the "ultimate narcissist" worldview...the conviction & belief that you will one day grow from a "god in embryo" into a full-grown god of your own world.

Take ANY candidate.

Let's say Newt. (Just using Newt as a hypothetical here)

I think Newt has been a Lutheran; he's Catholic now. May have been something else as well as some point. Well, what if he re-emerged tomorrow & announced that his newest belief would be that he will eventually become a god & rule over his own world?

Do you think, for a moment, that a single belief like that would get a pass by GOP voters? By the MSM? By the Dems?

And even after it's covered as breaking news, do you think that would "stop" after the breaking news cycle ends? Do you think that little "tidbit" or "factoid" about our hypothetical Newt would evaporate from the voters' minds?

I don't think it would. Yet why don't candidate-evaluators hold Mitt to the same eval process?

Why does Mitt get a pass? Just 'cause he wears a certain religious label? And just because multi-culturalism & post-modernism teaches that supposedly all beliefs of systemized religions are equal & deserve "equal" respect?

And that's just one whacky belief among THOUSANDS by Mormons! What if our hypothetical Newt belonged to an openly racist org til age 31, baptized dead Jews in his spare time, wore magic underwear, and claimed ALL of his wives would be his simultaneously in the afterlife???

Narcissism -- in this case best evidenced by the belief that you're on your way to godhood -- not only gets a "pass" when it comes to Romney but a "thumbs up" from the GOP establishment & a high chunk of GOP voters.

Our nation is in deep, deep, deep trouble.

Discernment is long gone.

20 posted on 03/08/2012 7:10:29 AM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

Makes sense. I’ve heard sad personal stories that confirm this.

It’s the reason why I think Glenn Beck will eventually leave the LDS church. He values truth too much.

AFAIK, he and his wife converted when he was in the depths of alcoholism, prompted by his daughter’s conversion. He will have to overcome this emotional attachment to Mormonism, which I believe is his sticking point.


21 posted on 03/08/2012 7:11:48 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Colofornian
So there's not even any Ultimate Authority in Mormonism!

Wrong! The "Ultimate Authority in Mormonism"is.....$$$!

Note that only ONE of the current leaders has ANY theological background..all the rest have majored in "profit".

Council on the Disposition of the Tithes

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Council on the Disposition of the Tithes (also known as the Council on the Disposition of Tithing) is a leadership body in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, composed of the First Presidency, the Presiding Bishopric, and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The Council determines how the tithing funds of the church will be spent. The Council oversees revenue, investments and expenditures valued at billions of dollars per year.

While the Church employs an independent auditing department which provides an annual report to the Church[1], it has not published full financial reports since 1959.

The Council was established by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr. on 8 July 1838.[2] As of April 2009, the members of the Council are:


22 posted on 03/08/2012 7:12:15 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (If Jesus returned today the mormon church would try to sell him a condo in their billion-dollar mall)
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To: Jonty30
That sounds a lot like the god of Islam. One cannot know what Allah really wants, except what the Imam tells you Allah wants and Allah is not bound by law either and could change his mind at a moment’s notice.

That sounds a lot like Romney's ideas of Constitutionalism. One cannot know what the Constitution really says, except what judges tell you the Constitution says and the judges are not bound by law either and could change their minds at a moment’s notice.

With only small changes you get Romney's core notion of government as "whatever I saw".

23 posted on 03/08/2012 7:14:36 AM PST by Paine in the Neck (Romney's judicial appointments were more radical than Obama's)
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To: Colofornian

“Why does Mitt get a pass?”

To help get him the nomination, then all hell will brake loose when the media and the left will go wild. The left is licking its chops waiting to pounce. It is too bad this can’t get traction now before it’s too late


24 posted on 03/08/2012 7:18:02 AM PST by PeachyKeen
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

You are being optimistic about Beck because you apparently see what mormoinsm is.
The draw of godhood is strong, and Beck has bought it hook line and sinker.
If Beck really valued truth, he would have never converted to mormonism.


25 posted on 03/08/2012 7:18:02 AM PST by svcw (Only difference between Romney & BH is one thinks he will be god & other one thinks he already is.)
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To: Jonty30

” That sounds a lot like the god of Islam. One cannot know what Allah really wants, except what the Imam tells you Allah wants and Allah is not bound by law either and could change his mind at a moment’s notice. “

Islam vs Mormonism

by Kirk Grim

The Islamic faith is centered on the belief in one God and in Arabic he is called Allah. The Muslims, followers of Islam, believe that Muhammad was visited by an angel of light from whom he received God’s final revelation. Muhammad claimed that this angel of light was Gabriel, the same Gabriel as the one from the Old Testament of the Bible. It was several years before these visions were recorded in what is called the Quran, the sacred scripture of Islam. Some believe that the delay in recording the revelations was due to Muhammad’s illiteracy. Muhammad taught that some of the figures of the Bible, such as Moses and Jesus, were prophets but that Jesus was not the Son of God, crucified, or resurrected. And Muhammad’s revelations superceded previous revelations that were not in agreement with his. “God has revealed His will through the medium of the prophets, that Muhammad is the last of the line of prophets, that the message revealed through Muhammad, the Koran, is the literal word of God, containing the expression of His will for man”.

The Mormon faith is centered on the belief in one God (of this world). Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was visited by an angel of light from whom he received God’s revelation. The Prophet continued to pursue his common vocations until September 21, 1823, while “suffering severe persecution at the hands of all classes of men,” in part as a result of his claims concerning his first vision. As he prayed that evening that he might know his standing before God, an angel appeared at his bedside, saying that he had been sent from the presence of God and that his name was Moroni. He explained “that God had a work for [Joseph] to do; and that [his] name should be had for good and evil among all nations”. He instructed Joseph concerning a book that was written on gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of the continent. The fullness of the everlasting gospel was contained in the record as delivered by the Savior to these people. Joseph was also shown a vision of a nearby hill and the place where the plates containing this record were deposited. Several years later he would translate these plates into what is known as the Book of Mormon. Joseph taught that the Bible was correct as much as it is translated correctly, but his revelations superceded previous revelations that were not in agreement with his. He also taught that Jesus Christ was the Son of God through physical relations between God and Mary, but that Jesus is not God and did not pay for our sins on the cross. Along with the Book of Mormon and the Bible, Joseph received revelations that later became the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The four books are considered the standard works of Mormonism.

It is clear that both religions must change the nature of God and/or Jesus to allow for the new revelations. Muslims claim that Allah is the same God that Jews and Christians worship. But the history of the name is quite different. The term Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabic deity. The tribe into which Mohammad was born was devoted to their Allah, which was the moon god. It was represented by the black stone they believed had come down from heaven. “In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as female and the moon was viewed as the male god. In pre-Islamic times Allah was married to the sun god and together they produced three goddesses called The Daughters of Allah”. In Mormonism, they profess that there is only one God but explain that it means one God of this world meaning that there are more. They teach that God ascended to his holy place and use the phrase, “As man is, god once was, as god is, man may become”. It is interesting what the Bible says about this, “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works” (II Corinthians 11:13-15).

Islam imposed its seventh century culture in its political expression, family affairs, dietary laws, clothing, and religious rites. Likewise, Mormonism imposes a set of laws about ones life that must be adhered to, it is known as The Word of Wisdom. “The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy”. Some of the restrictions include, wine or strong drink, “tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill, hot drinks, Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine”. Other restrictions are applied to dress and particularly the dress of women. In Islam they are covered from head to toe and in Mormonism they are supposed to wear clothing the covers their arms and legs. Men and women are both to wear protecting under clothing known as garments.

Both religions have demeaning practices regarding the treatment of women. In the fundamental sects of Islam, women are considered to be property and Muslim men still have the right to have up to 4 wives. In Mormonism the man holds the keys to exaltation for the woman. The subservient role of women in the Mormon temple ceremony is evident when they come to the veil in the temple. A man representing Elohim (God the Father) brings the men through the veil into the Celestial Kingdom. The women, on the other hand, are brought through by their husbands. This part of the ceremony seems to be an attempt to demonstrate that man is the head and God of the woman. The official who performs the wedding ceremony tells the man that he must look to God but the woman must look to her husband as her God. It is not possible for a woman to go to Christ, except through her husband. Mormonism also taught polygamy as an acceptable practice until after they were forced to abandon it early in the twentieth century by the Edmonds-Tucker act. Although the physical marriage has been abandoned except for some isolated areas around the country, they still practice polygamy through spiritual marriage. In this practice, leaders of the church are often “sealed” to widowed or unmarried women of the church.

After the Koran, Muhammad continued to receive revelation. He received revelations that he was to loot and steal from caravans that were going through. There were many cases where Muhammad and his followers would loot and rob caravans and would kill the men. In one of his revelations, he was told to kill and drive out all of the Jews. On one occasion he had one thousand Jewish men brought together and beheaded. Islam became known as the religion of the sword. After being forced out of Kirtland, Ohio for money laundering, polygamy and various other crimes, Joseph Smith and the Mormons moved to Nauvoo, Illinois. At Nauvoo, the Mormons organized the Nauvoo Legion. Robert Bruce Flanders explains: “The crowning provision of the charter gave the city its own little army, the famous Nauvoo Legion....The Legion was therefore independent of and not subject to the military laws of Illinois. At that time the titles Colonel, Captain or General came to replace Brother, Elder, or President in the address of the Saints. Military spoils were for them a particular symbol of status, prestige, and reassurance. Joseph Smith preferred the full title of Lieutenant General. As the city grew, so did the Legion, causing apprehension among locals concerning the nature and intent of the Mormon kingdom. Mormon writer Hyrum L. Andrus recorded: Of the Prophet’s appearance as a Lieutenant General at the head of the Nauvoo Legion, Lyman L. Woods recalled, I have seen him on a white horse wearing the uniform of a general....He was leading a parade of the Legion and looked like a god. Joseph Smith seems to have desired to lead a large army, for he prepared a Petition to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, dated 26th March, asking the privilege of raising 100,000 men to extend protection to persons wishing to settle Oregon and other portions of the territory of the United States, and extend protection to the people in Texas.”

Joseph Smith’s military plans and maneuvers were very disturbing to the non-Mormons who lived around Nauvoo. On July 21, 1841, the anti-Mormon paper, Warsaw Signal reported: “How military these people are becoming! Everything they say or do seems to breathe the spirit of military tactics. Their prophet appears, on all occasions, in his splendid regimental dress signs his name Lieut. General, and more titles are to be found in the Nauvoo Legion, than any one book on military tactics can produce; ... Truly fighting must, be a part of the creed of these Saints!”. In 1853 it was revealed by William Marks, a member of the Council of Fifty, that Joseph ordained himself as king to reign over the house of Israel forever. Joseph Smith was eventually arrested in Carthage, Illinois for burning down the printing office of the Nauvoo Expositor for publishing articles that he found offensive. It was from this jail that Smith killed 2 individuals while trying to escape, before he himself was shot and killed. To this day the Mormons claim this act of violence made him a martyr.
Now these similarities may be mere coincidence if there is not a link that in some way ties them together. That link exists, and it is Freemasonry. Freemasonry or the Masonic Lodge is a secret society that goes back several centuries. Freemasonry derives many of its symbols and mysticism from Arabia and Islam. They also profess belief in a God that they call the great architect of the universe. There symbols include the Arabic sword and crescent moon. The Shriners come from the thirty third degree of Freemasonry and are known to dress in ancient Arabic attire including the Fez and swords. Folklore says that the hat known as the Fez was named for the city of Fez, Morocco, where thousands of Christians were slain at the sword of Islam. As a sign of honor, the Muslims dipped the top of their hats in the blood that flowed through the streets. Mormonism is also filled with secret rituals and ceremonies that have been derived from Joseph’s family’s membership in the Masonic Lodge. One example of this is the oath given by Mormons in a temple ceremony, “We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so; we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots”. This is strikingly similar to the oath of the First Degree of Freemasonry, “... I will ... never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry ... binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots....”. In both ceremonies the thumb is drawn across the throat to show the penalty. In Utah, Mormons cannot join their fraternity because of the things that happened in Nauvoo and they believe that Smith stole the Masonic rituals.


26 posted on 03/08/2012 7:30:48 AM PST by AnTiw1 ("Where Liberty is, there is my country.")
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To: paythefiddler; svcw; Vendome
Mitt’s more of a typical polititian, very disappointing, but infinately better than a Marxist-hey that’s a good campaign slogan- “Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s better than a Marxist”

Yeah...I can see it now...

A local candidate is selling himself door to door...you answer...you invite him in to get to know him...

Thru an informal grilling process you finally extract these tidbits...that...

(a) He's earned a fair amount of $ from the porn industry;
(b) He's forced everybody in your community into govt-run healthcare;
(c) He says he's "pro-life" -- but that healthcare provides $50 abortions & has a Planned Parenthood employee as a permanent healthcare member...plus while running his last "pro-life" campaign he told a member of the local media that it's "OK" for parents to give up their offspring to "research"...
(d) He was a member of an openly racist org thru age 31 -- an org that still keeps racist teachings in its constitution but says policy-wise, they've changed.
(e) And, oh, btw, he'll be a grown-up god some day...but, hey, no worry about "idolatry" if you endorse him.

ALL: Paythefiddler's conclusion: "Well, you're a bit disappointing. You're not much of a candidate, let alone a candidate with an (R) attached, but I'll endorse you."

[To flesh out (a) & (c) above...(c) -- Romney told Katie Couric in Dec '07 'twas "OK" for parents to give their offspring to "research"...re: (a) Romney's been a board member for Marriott, which since at least 1989 has been selling porn inside its hotel rooms...something even they realize is problematic because they've announced they'll be stopping that practice...tell us the difference between a porn theater in bed with the porn industry & Marriott again? Aren't they all "porn theaters" & porn industry distributors?]

Hey, paythefiddler, with "fickle" "discerning" "conservative" voters like you, the GOP's in "great shape" long-term! /sarc

27 posted on 03/08/2012 7:34:05 AM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: paythefiddler

I will assert that Mitt is even more dangerous than Obama...everybody knows Obama is socialist, he’s not very subtle about it. Mitt is trickier, he will sugar-coat his socialism.


28 posted on 03/08/2012 7:37:31 AM PST by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: PeachyKeen

Yes, and I suspect that if he gets the nomination, by the time the 0bama campaign is done with him, huge numbers of people will be seeing LDS as a cult with bizarre teachings and beliefs.


29 posted on 03/08/2012 7:57:21 AM PST by NEMDF
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To: NEMDF

I agree.


30 posted on 03/08/2012 8:03:01 AM PST by JSDude1
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To: Colofornian

this morning Neal Boortz was talking about the left going after Rush and he said who would they be after next ???

Who would they try to “tie” to Rush ??? Romney ???

Would Rush bring Romney down ???

I was in my car and I yelled at my car radio...

“Not even being “tied” to Rush could improve Romney’s image”


31 posted on 03/08/2012 8:54:31 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: paythefiddler

“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s better than a Marxist”
_______________________________________________

and hes still not good enough..

being non-Marxist doesnt make him a Conservative..


32 posted on 03/08/2012 8:59:43 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Colofornian

if exit pollsters asked more Qs re: common values — vs. doctrinal focus — there would be more “alignment” between us...
_______________________________________

Christians dont dead dunked...

Christians dont practice immorality like polygamy...

The Christian God always was...

The Christian Virgin Mary was...

and so on...


33 posted on 03/08/2012 9:04:14 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: paythefiddler; svcw; Vendome; ansel12; Elsie; All
Mitt’s more of a typical polititian, very disappointing, but infinately better than a Marxist-hey that’s a good campaign slogan-“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s better than a Marxist”

Well, I have to say, Paythefiddler...your comment is not an isolated one these past months on FR. Because of that, and some interesting comments by other posters like Ansel12 -- like how this would impact who we consider to be otherwise "conservative" stalwarts -- I was motivated to write a "modern-day parable" if you will.

I just posted it as a vanity: 'What good would it do to forfeit your convictions & not gain your political world?' [Vanity about GoP & its voters]

I don't even care if it initially draws much comment. What's "good" about some postings is the ability to link to them in future posts...And I have a great feeling that comments like yours -- paythefiddler -- will crop up again...and which point I will compare them also to "Joe the Republican."

I do encourage you to read it...and then tell me if you see yourself in the "Joe the Republican" character.

It indeed was a "composite character" -- based upon plenty of FREEPER comments I've heard.

34 posted on 03/08/2012 11:13:46 AM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: paythefiddler

“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but
__________________________________

as a Conservative I want much more.....


35 posted on 03/08/2012 11:53:18 AM PST by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Colofornian
* Homosexual rights: Mormon church supports Salt Lake City's protections for gay rights and Mormons Back Salt Lake City Gay Rights Laws


I'm a MORMON ...
 
 
 

http://www.affirmation.org/

36 posted on 03/08/2012 1:39:36 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: WellyP
“...In such a system, truth is relative, LDS leaders become the only reliable authority, and individual members are subservient...”

What can we find an 'OFFICIAL MORMON'    teaching??
Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are consider unofficial by said officials.
At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially.
 
This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness.
 
Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial.
 
This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used here by haters cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site elsewhere.
 
Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially.
I hope this clear things up for the lurkers out there.
The haters tend to make things complicated and confusing when it is all really quite crystal clear.   --Ejonesie22

37 posted on 03/08/2012 1:40:42 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: paythefiddler
Mormons have borrowed from the best of Judeo-Christian values.

Bull hockey!

MORMONism has STOLEN things rightfully Christian and TWISTED them into it's own fiendish ways; and having the GALL to claim that THEY are the ONLY true CHRISTIANS!!

%^&%&#@& THEM!

38 posted on 03/08/2012 1:43:00 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: paythefiddler
Mormons have borrowed from the best of Judeo-Christian values.

Bull hockey!

MORMONism has STOLEN things rightfully Christian and TWISTED them into it's own fiendish ways; and having the GALL to claim that THEY are the ONLY true CHRISTIANS!!

%^&%&#@& THEM!

39 posted on 03/08/2012 1:43:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: paythefiddler
“Mitt Romney-he ain’t much, but he’s better than a Marxist”

So is my local dogcatcher!

ANY fool off the street is better than O; and MOST of them are BETTER than Romney; too!

40 posted on 03/08/2012 1:45:32 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: PeachyKeen

Mixed emotions...

Like having your mother-in-law go over the cliff driving your new Cadillac.

We may just have to endure another 4 of Bama; just to expose MORMONism to the world.

But really; would that not be better?


41 posted on 03/08/2012 1:47:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: mikeus_maximus
We're dead.

Just like 45-50 MILLION are since 1973.

America: you'd better repent, or it'll just get worse...

42 posted on 03/08/2012 1:49:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw; paythefiddler
What you said about mormonism probably means you know nothing about it. other than what the massive PR machine in SLC wants you to know.
43 posted on 03/08/2012 1:51:03 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
we're ripe for judgment...and not just for whom our citizenry elevates as "ideal" candidates.

Somebody said long ago: If God doesn't judge America, He'll have to apologize to Sodom & Gomorrah.

44 posted on 03/08/2012 1:51:50 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
An excellent remote diagnosis!
45 posted on 03/08/2012 1:52:59 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: PeachyKeen
It is too bad this can’t get traction now before it’s too late

Perhaps some eager beaver will jump the gun, and the floodgates will burst open!

We ALL know that they'd rather be FIRST with a story than be RIGHT about it!

46 posted on 03/08/2012 1:54:41 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw
If Beck really valued truth, he would have never converted to mormonism.

Oh come on; ease up on him a bit.

He was rebounding from the absolute pits and his GIRLFRIEND said she would not marry him unless they had a faith they SHARED.

Perhaps SHE was the leader in this.

As a guy, if you put TRUTH on the scales trying to balance against NOOKIE; well...

...that'd be a TOUGH one!! ;^)

47 posted on 03/08/2012 1:59:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AnTiw1

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




48 posted on 03/08/2012 2:00:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
If the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was "the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword." So shall it eventually be with us -- "Joseph Smith or the Sword!"
49 posted on 03/08/2012 2:50:12 PM PST by AnTiw1 ("Where Liberty is, there is my Country." B. Franklin)
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To: Colofornian

I worked for a very wealthy guy who sent a lot of his money offshore, and planned to move there with his young family. If economics weren’t an issue for me, I’d do the same. We can no longer lay claim to the title “greatest nation on earth.” Morally, culturally, and now financially and politically, we’re just another one. But every true Christian knows this planet is dying, and it’s all temporary. America was one unique, bright shining moment in the history of mankind. And that moment seems to be coming to an end.


50 posted on 03/08/2012 3:12:35 PM PST by mikeus_maximus (I won't vote for Romney, period. Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is still voting for evil.)
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