Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

[boatbums]

Evidently there’s some notches to be gained in one’s halo for throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit’s operations in this current era.

Do you not see the difference between rebuking false teaching and teachers and "throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit"? Tell me, would you have thrown a rock or two at the Simon Magus types who claimed they healed by the power of God? How about the David Koreshes of the world or the Jim Jones types? They used the SAME defense you are!

[smvoice]

If I may ask one basic question here: What is the purpose for speaking in tongues today?

[metmom]

It's all staged and focused on getting to the place where their so called "Holy Spirit" manifestations, by and via their so called "anointed" leader occur. When in fact it is by another spirit I believe this behavior is being promoted and certainly in no way represents the Holy Spirit of God.

We're ALL anointed. Every believer has the same Holy Spirit as any other believer.

The followers of the Charismatic movement have become such big time respecters of persons, contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture.

[Quix]

It’s persistently slightly fascinating . . .

those who most rant about

“The WORD of God is ENOUGH for me!”

Then seem to doggedly INSIST on mangling, watering down, rationalizing away, trying to neuter etc.

The WORD OF GOD!

Maybe they’re just never satisfied?

Or is it their Proud Control Phreaque obsessions coming out.

I think that’s a huge part of why certain personalities seem to have a super hard time “walking in The Spirit.”

THEY ABJECTLY REFUSE, in any significant sense, to GIVE CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES MORE WHOLESALE TO JESUS!

Sad.

[Quix]

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

PRASIE GOD.

It’s often the overseas missionary who sees more miracles than average. Cultures without so much ‘sophistication’ and ‘finery’ MORE DESPERATLY *NEED* GOD in a long list of ways.

And, TRUE TO HIS WORD, GOD COMES THROUGH according to His Word.

BTW, would appreciate an update. Been about to email you for one.

LUB.

[metmom]

And it isn’t just related to salvation, I have had more than a few times when the Holy Spirit slapped me upside the head to do something.

Good grief. I'd rather have the Holy Spirit do it that way than let me screw up.

I had something along those lines happen to me. I was heading up an event at church and praying about who to invite and the Lord told me to ask mr. mm. The problem being, I didn't know him at the time. He has just started attending church, I didn't even know his last name, and it went against my personal policy of making the first move when it came to men. But God said *Ask [the future mr. mm]!*

And with that simple statement, came the full knowledge that this would be the man I was going to marry. I just KNEW. It was over a year before that happened, but God does do stuff like that.

But if God wasn't forceful about it, I wouldn't have done it.

Come to think of it, He's pretty forceful with it comes to convicting us of our sin. I don't know anybody who asked God to convict them unto repentance.

[Quix]

Perhaps you’ve been looking in the wrong direction or at the wrong vessels.

[metmom]

I have a real issue with people who think speaking in tongues is proof of salvation or required of it. I have seen people pushed away from God because they were told they were not really saved if they didn’t speak in tongues. Besides the fact that it adds to grace to make tongues a requirement for salvation.

The bigger danger than the fact that it could shake the faith of a new believer, is that it can give someone confidence that they are saved when they're not. They can go blithely on their way to hell thinking that they're saved because they have the proof of having spoken in tongues when it was either subconsciously manufactured or a counterfeit of the enemy.

[Quix]

By all means, be my guest . . . maintain, with great diligence, your death grip on such convictions.

.

.

Being a fool for Jesus tends to have a LOT of job security.

[boatbums]

The problem is is that materialism has become so rampant in the church today that people think they're entitled to perfect lives here on earth, that they have to have prosperity and health, and think that all that counts is physical comfort and physical blessing. They have totally lost sight of the spiritual aspect of it with their soul prospering.

You are so right! If we think about it soberly and logically we should recognize that the Apostles NEVER preached the false "Name it, Claim it" Gospel. Every one of them died a martyrs' death with the only exception of John, though he survived attempted execution several times. In our country especially, we have grown so lax and lazy that we complain if we miss a meal much less knowing REAL want. How easy it is for us to forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who still face persecution and threat of death and who, through it all, have a faith that is so strong it makes some of ours look like we're just getting started. From adversity comes strength, patience, perseverance and faith. Those who expect an express pass to that point fail to understand it takes the process to get there.

[metmom]

And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing - child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?

If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.

OK. I've been anointed with oil and prayed for by elders according to James, and been anointed with oil and prayed for by faith healers time without count.

Tell me. If God wants to desperately to heal us. Why doesn't He? Why am I NOT healed when I ask in faith according to Scriptural directive?

And I don't want to hear any garbage about the amount of my faith. Jesus healed lots of people who didn't even know who He was.

God is not a weak God that He can't do it in spite of the size of my faith or the faith of the person asking. All anyone needs is faith the size of a grain of mustard seed.

So tell me, if healing is so God's will for us, why are so many people sick? And why am I not healed?

And what do you call martyrdom of believers? By your reasoning, God could be charged with child abuse from Stephen on. It's not just sickness. It's any unpleasant situation.

[caww]

All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages. “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air” (1 Corinthians 14:9).
There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means “I speak.” The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish. The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God’s message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling.

http://bible.org/article/speaking-tongues

[CynicalBear]

>>The problem is that materialism has become so rampant in the church today that people think they're entitled to perfect lives here on earth, that they have to have prosperity and health, and think that all that counts is physical comfort and physical blessing.<<

And those that do are soon going to find that those things can be gone in a very short time and then they will realize that in comparison to eternity they don’t amount to much. Some think that because they have all those things that God is blessing them but scripture tells us that He sends the rain on the just and the unjust.

[metmom]

Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occult' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

" That nature is like eternal in absolute perfection. ....And that was imparted, injected into your spirit man..... And you have that imparted into you by God just the same as you imparted into your child the nature of humanity. ......Well now, you don't have a human do you? No, you are one..... You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Hard to believe that Satan is STILL getting mileage out of that lie he used on Eve. But there it is, coming right from the mouths of religious figures claiming to speak for Christ.

Acts 12:21-23 21 On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. 22 And the people were shouting, “The voice of a god, and not of a man!” 23 Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

[metmom]

If I may ask one basic question here: What is the purpose for speaking in tongues today?

I keep hearing that it's THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That way I can know I've got it.

As if I wouldn't be able to tell that God did something so significant in my life without it.

But I'd be interested in what the tongues defenders have to say.

[reaganaut]

He’s pretty forceful with it comes to convicting us of our sin.

- - - -
Yeah He is and I am grateful for it. My God is not a ‘hands off’ God at all.

[reaganaut]

NO, QUIX, I HAVE NOT. OF THAT I AM VERY SURE.

[reaganaut]

Or that they are not saved when they are. Security of the believer is an issue I often deal with, both with Ex-cultists and other believers both old and new. I know one woman in particular who accepted Christ as a child but questioned her salvation for years because she was constantly told that if she had faith she would speak in tongues.

On the other side, I read an autobiography of Johnny Cash where he stated that he was a Christian for many years and was surprised when he spoke in tongues. In his case, it only happened once and only between him and God. No public display. That is a huge difference than what is usually promoted and has been stated on this thread.

Again, the specific nature of tongues is not clear in the Bible. For me, it is not a doctrine of salvation and I vehemently oppose those who would make it such. I have bigger fish to fry - the cultists.

[reaganaut]

They can go blithely on their way to hell thinking that they’re saved because they have the proof of having spoken in tongues when it was either subconsciously manufactured or a counterfeit of the enemy.

- - - - - -
Which would be very similar to the ‘spirit’ of Mormonism or the Mormon stories of seeing the dead they are doing ‘the work’ for in LDS temples.

Even when I was a Temple LDS, I questioned the validity of those experiences being from God.

[CynicalBear]

>> Where did I ping you to this thread?<<

I think if you will double check your post 112 you will notice that my name is first on that list of who you pinged to your comment.

Lashing out at everyone who disagrees with you hasn’t served you or your position well.