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Locked on 03/14/2012 11:57:15 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers
Skip to comments.Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc
Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix
I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.
I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.
And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.
I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.
I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.
That said . . .
I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.
My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.
Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.
As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.
I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.
Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.
She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.
The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.
The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.
On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.
Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.
Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"
Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'
I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.
I’m pretty fiesty on the topic.
I’m sick to death of the idiotic arguments that don’t sound like they’ve ever been in the same galactic cluster as a Bible.
I may feel somewhat charitable toward y’all as individuals.
I cannot say the same about your assertions on this topic.
I’ll shred them every way I can as I feel they are from the pit.
My reading of the NT is that Christ Himself did not suffer foolishness well, if at all.
I consider that post of yours a rather sleezy way to avoid dealing with the Scriptures I posted to your points.
Absolutely indeed . . .
Whether the donkey had teeth missing, burrs in its tail and stank, or not.
Sounds like me after a hard day’s work.
My ministry work exposes the heresies of Mormonism and other pseudo Christian cults. In that area I have become familiar with the subtle rewording and changes in context used by such groups. I see similar things in much of Copeland’s (and some other televangelists) work.
Just because something sounds biblical or even quotes Scripture doesn’t make it doctrinally sound. Mormonism is strong proof of that.
God uses people like me in exposing heresies. He uses His followers. Does He NEED me? No. Does He USE me for His purposes? Yes. And not just me.
SCRIPTURE says that no one can assert such things by other than Holy Spirit.
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Mormons assert the same thing. Do you put them in the same category?
And my close relatives wife is alive due to Kenneths ministry.
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I’m sorry Quix but that is a HUGE error. Your close relative’s wife is alive due to GOD choosing to heal her. Not because of Kenneth Copeland.
That is very close to giving Copeland glory, not God.
I know that feeling.
It’s a tricky business . . .
However, I’m familiar with roles which folks throw lots of rocks at.
I have no huge need to throw rocks at your efforts to hold folks to Biblical standards.
Personally, I extend tons of grace because I need tons of grace.
I am fine about cautioning people about this or that heretically foolish thing some purported Christian—particularly leaders—may spout or write or fling.
I’m less fine about consigning them on my perceptions, criteria—even my interpretation of Biblical criteria—to the categories of deliberate and rank evil.
All the more so when the acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh etc. THAT’S THE BIBLICAL STANDARD.
Lots of other things are arguable.
And I’m not very supportive of consigning folks to evil labels over agruable things.
If they are clearly saying Christ did not come in the flesh;
If they are clearly ascribing evil things to Holy Spirit
that’s one thing.
Lots of other things are arguable and not for me to pronounce heavy handed judgment of others over such arguable things.
Besides . . . I’ve been wrong . . . more than a time or two.
I don’t want to be standing before Almighty God and Him asking me why I was so judgmental about a Brother . . . and turn out, from God’s perspective to have been wrong or mostly wrong . . . or right on the letter but wrong on the spirit of an issue.
Or, put it another way . . .
I’m a recovering haughty prissy judgmentalist censuring prig. My teen and early 20’s years were something else on such scores. Not about to go back there.
The long dark nights of the soul God put me through to burn that stuff out are not anything I want to even remember well—and certainly not to have a refresher course in.
Their huge primary errors as with most cults . . .
They diminish Christ’s Deity.
They teach salvation by works.
Either one are about as big a red flag as the Christ coming in the flesh issue.
Kenneth gives the Glory to God.
My relative and his wife give the Glory to God.
I give the Glory to God.
However, GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth Copeland to heal her through—actually, his wife.
She had been prayed for by all manner of other Christians and pastors. GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth. Take HIS CHOICE up with HIM.
OK, Big Daddy, If you want to unfold my arms, open my heart, mind and spirit with a crowbar and hit me over the head with it—I’ll tolerate it.
God Holy Spirit is NOT about to do things that way. He’s far too much of a Gentleman.
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Actually that is exactly what God did to bring me out of Mormonism. I was hit over the head spiritually by the Holy Spirit and that is what opened my eyes. I have also seen similar things in conversions of friends from Atheism to Christ. But that isn’t what I am saying here.
The Bible says we are not to seek after signs (Matthew 12).
In 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 Paul says that not everyone will have every gift. Which means speaking in tongues is not proof of salvation or spirituality. He also considers it a lower not greater gift.
1 Corinthians 14:14-19 states “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. “
It is not a matter of faith, it is a gift that the precise meaning of is unclear. Because I have not spoken in tongues or sought to (since we are not to seek signs) it does not mean I have faith.
I have friends who have spoken in tongues, I have friends who have not. I have been in churches with interpreters present and some where there were no interpreters (unbiblical btw).
Sadly what I am seeing from you is that you are puting way more emphasis on something that is open to interpretation (both in English and in the Greek) and is not a theological hill to die on.
And Copeland isn’t Christ. It sounds to me like your view of Copeland is a little to high and mighty and you are placing him on a pedestal that he doesn’t belong on.
Only Christ is to be praised.
I apply the same criteria and use my God given discernment to all teachers, even my own pastor and yes, even myself. I learned the hard way not to and frankly all televangelists are to be considered suspect, there are far too many who misuse the word of God.
I am saddened to see you focusing on these spiritual hobbies rather than look at the bigger picture.
Occasionally, God does give SOME folks a Damascus road or burning bush sort of experience.
NOT MOST folks.
And, Holy Spirit does not PUSH HIMSELF in a forceful way on someone. He may ‘yell’ STOP when someone is about to step in front of a Mac truck.
I have NEVER observed him to FORCEFULLY TAKE CONTROL of someone’s speech muscles against their will or reluctance—forcing them to speak in tongues.
It is more like a dance where HE LEADS—but NOT dragging the person around the dance floor against their will nor with them digging their heels in against the dance.
Where have I said folks should seek the gifts—particularly over THE GIVER? I haven’t.
ST PAUL is the one IN SCRIPTURE who exhorted to:
I Cor 12: KJV
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: . . .
31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.
31 and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:
So, if one were to take your assertion as Gospel, one would have to throw out that sort of assertion by St Paul.
Paul clearly exhorts Believers to seek the better gifts.
And, Paul clearly exhorts that ALL THE GIFTS are for the edifying and functioning of the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.
ALL OF THEM.
There are NO trashy Gifts of Holy Spirit.
Except, seemingly, in the minds & hearts of the naysayers.
God have mercy.
BTW, I’ve been writing about this topic off and on on FR for more than 10 years now.
I can’t recall in all that time, ANYONE dealing much at all, if at all—and certainly not remotely logically or well—with the Scriptures I cite—particularly from I Cor 14.
I can understand why. Paul’s statements are clear enough that if folks are going to stick to their convictions, they need to minimize, explain away or ignore those Scriptures.
Not very impressive to observe, however.
That’s how you frame it.
I haven’t watched nor listened to much of Copeland—certainly in the last 30 years.
I respect him as the most balanced and Biblical of Kenneth Hagin’s protoge’s. He’s more Biblical, has, imho, more integrity and congruence with Scripture and more Biblical walked out lived out integrity than Hagin’s own son.
And a lot more humility, imho.
Kenneth’s heart is not hard to discern. He almost wears it on his sleeve. He’s as raw and Texas plain as can be, in most respects. I like that.
I respect him. I am thankful he and wife were used OF GOD to bring Christ’s healing power to my relative’s wife.
No way do I have him on a pedestal. That’s what you’re reading into my posts.
I don’t mind standing up for him against a pack of raving wolves who don’t sound like they understand clue one about the Biblical verses involved in such things.
I have told a number of internationally famous ‘Great Men (and women) of God’ some very stern things. And God has confirmed what I’ve said to them with signs following though all of them rebelled against what I said.
I respect folks calling and anointing and whatever offices and giftings The Lord has layed on them. I don’t respect gross hypocrisy, heresy, foolishness, immorality etc. and am quick to say so.
I don’t mind standing up for the underdog. On this forum, that seems to include a long list of folks that God seems to think enough of to use mightily.
I find most of the carping exactly—as in EXACTLY like the carping of the pharisees 2000 years ago. And I hate it maybe in the same ball park to as much as Christ hated it.
Rather than look at the bigger picture?
Good grief, man . . . how much of my stuff have you read over the years?
How on earth could you even think such a thing!
I don’t know anyone on here who has written more about the big picture . . .
—ONE WORLD RELIGION
—PROPHECIES ABOUT THE PLANET; THE CHURCH; THE NATION; ISRAEL
—GENERIC GLOBAL EVENS AND TRENDS IMPACTING CHRISTIANITY IN GENERAL
—MISSIONS IN SPECIFIC AND IN GENERAL
. . .
. . .