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Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers



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Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc
That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix

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To: reaganaut; metmom; boatbums; smvoice; CynicalBear
I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one.

And knowing the entire Bible is 'key' to discerning when unbiblical teachings are spoken and taught. Which is why today so many are easily mis-led into other false religions and or false practices...they are blank slates for the most part ready to have whatever teachings might be presenting their wares.

The difficult issues is many who know the Lord are being mis-led today....even though they are uncomfortable with the direction they are in, or are going, their "teachers" are quick to tell them not to be afraid, or that it's satan trying to get in their way of the experience God wants them to have. So they press on believing they are fighting the enemy of mens souls when in fact they are opposing the very sensibilities and discernment he's given them that something is wrong and or dangerous.

It is vital today that Christians understand and know the scriptures....otherwise as these various false teachers present their teachings they will be a target.

As for Copeland......

Quote on TBN, Kenneth Copeland.....“Dogs beget dogs cats beget cats, and God beget Gods, you are little Gods.”....

Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occultic' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

" That nature is like eternal in absolute perfection. ....And that was imparted, injected into your spirit man..... And you have that imparted into you by God just the same as you imparted into your child the nature of humanity. ......Well now, you don't have a human do you? No, you are one..... You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Copeland, Binn, and many others now in the Emerging church are all on the same path, and they with Mormonism, New Age Spirituality are all promoting the very same agenda and it is not of the Lord Jesus Christ...but another Christ...which Jesus himself warned us would come from "within" the church.

151 posted on 03/11/2012 1:59:37 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

Wow. Those quotes are scary!


152 posted on 03/11/2012 2:04:33 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut; metmom; boatbums; smvoice; CynicalBear
I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one.

And knowing the entire Bible is 'key' to discerning when unbiblical teachings are spoken and taught. Which is why today so many are easily mis-led into other false religions and or false practices...they are blank slates for the most part ready to have whatever teachings might be presenting their wares.

The difficult issues is many who know the Lord are being mis-led today....even though they are uncomfortable with the direction they are in, or are going, their "teachers" are quick to tell them not to be afraid, or that it's satan trying to get in their way of the experience God wants them to have. So they press on believing they are fighting the enemy of mens souls when in fact they are opposing the very sensibilities and discernment he's given them that something is wrong and or dangerous.

It is vital today that Christians understand and know the scriptures....otherwise as these various false teachers present their teachings they will be a target.

As for Copeland......

Quote on TBN, Kenneth Copeland.....“Dogs beget dogs cats beget cats, and God beget Gods, you are little Gods.”....

Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occult' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

" That nature is like eternal in absolute perfection. ....And that was imparted, injected into your spirit man..... And you have that imparted into you by God just the same as you imparted into your child the nature of humanity. ......Well now, you don't have a human do you? No, you are one..... You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Copeland, Binn, and many others now in the Emerging church are all on the same path, and they with Mormonism, New Age Spirituality, and the New isalmic Chrislam, are all promoting the very same agenda and it is not of the Lord Jesus Christ...but another Christ...which Jesus himself warned us would come from "within" the church..and these are the teachers who went out from us in our day...false and deceptive who distort, abuse and mis-lead people ...dangerous hardly says enough...

153 posted on 03/11/2012 2:04:50 PM PDT by caww
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To: Quix

Nice try, to weasel out of answering questions which are most unflattering.

Are you a UFO true believer? Is there a reason you can’t simply answer yes or no? It’s obviously not a no answer so it is a yes one and even someone as gullible as you on UFOs realizes that these kook beliefs shatter any credibility you have, if any.

Sad really.


154 posted on 03/11/2012 2:15:42 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Lx

Oh yeah, is doesn’t take a genius to see that I believe any and all things related to UFOs to be the result of deliberate deception, the desire to inflate one’s meaning in life; certainly, none are extra-terrestrial. I would really like to see your theory how they are able to break the light speed barrier, not exactly a trivial job.

I especially love the crop circle researchers who can tell the difference from a ‘real’ one and one produced by some drunk college kids. They mention things like how the stems are bent over at an angle and inter weaved in a way no human could possibly forge. Pity, that more than one ‘expert’ on kook crop circles have been taken in by these folks who create crop circles with a 2x4 and some rope.


155 posted on 03/11/2012 2:22:18 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: reaganaut
Wow. Those quotes are scary!

Unfortunately not to those who follow these "wolfs" which I believe them to be and which they evidence they are. People seem to have a hard time today telling the difference between

Jesus made it clear they would perform healings, miracles and counterfeit all which is of God and worse do so in His name....that is what we are seeing.

Copeland is a very dangerous man for his teachings....those quotes given are only the tip of the iceburg...he is so far away from the truth now and promoting the New Age Spirituality agenda...as well as that Of Mormonism and other so called "teachers" who are setting people up for the final deception which is to come. The Emmergent Church is also on that road and frightening to see what we once respected as those solid in the faith are falling into this movement...as well catholicism is also moving that direction.

In Word-Faith philosophy, there is no will of God, only your "I which becomes, as they claim, God's will. And all that God has is yours - His nature, His power, His wealth. It is man-centered and self is it's focus...aas with the others just mentioned.

Copeland also stated BY PROPHECY stating he was speaking for Jesus Christ to the people.... ......"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of being God, the more you get to be like me (Jesus) the more there going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. ......But I didn’t claim I was God.... I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me.... Hallelujah."

Reaganaut....Note Copeland claims Jesus admitting HE wasn't God...and that is Anti-Christ..no doubt about it. And yet Copelands followers continue to follow him and defend him. As you know studying the cults and false religions takes time but you do see the similarities among them and the general flow they are all now taking today.....they will merge "in Spirit" as they will say ...eventually though it will not be the Spirit of the Christian Christ who unites them.

156 posted on 03/11/2012 2:29:24 PM PDT by caww
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To: Quix
Sounds like your mind-reader needs junked and traded in on a new one.

Nothing about mind reading Quix..and your response just made my point......if you'd cease those snarky responses then I'd take you more seriously, but you don't, instead they are knee jerk reactions and cause division and further mis-lead from the topic at hand...exactly the same as was done on the last thread of this nature...and which is also common within the churches when these so called gifts are brought into them until the church splits....and that as we know is not of the Lord.

As A reminder the Topic is Kenneth Copeland and the Tongues he professes.

I would think since you both claim such a "gift" your comments would certainly be framed in such a way as to reveal that Spirit which has given it.....obviously they don't which would then indicate that the spirit claimed may very well not be the one one might profess....and clearly in Copelands case he does not speak the truth rather mingles it with christian verbiage to appeal to his audience and followers....who get so wrapped up in their experiences and emotions Copelands lies go right over their heads.

157 posted on 03/11/2012 2:48:42 PM PDT by caww
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To: presently no screen name
And I'd appreciate it if you don't speak to me on what 'you think' about God on what HE does/doesn't do. He's MY God, that makes HIM personal to me. I KNOW HIM. His ways, His thoughts are higher than yours.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from telling me what I can and cannot do. You post a comment on an open forum thread, guess what, I can freely answer it and give my opinions, which is what you are doing. God is a personal God and I know him personally, but that doesn't mean you OR I can confect our own doctrines about him. He has already told us all we need to know about him by his Divinely-inspired Holy Scriptures. Jesus is God in the flesh and everything he taught that is needful for us to know, is in the Bible. His thoughts ARE higher than our thoughts and His ways above our ways - they are "past finding out".

I'd appreciate it if people would stop trying to "sell" God as the equivalent of a magic genie ready to grant our every wish and desire. Short changing God is when anyone presumes to know better than Him about what he does and doesn't do in each individual life. Suffering IS part of His plan and healing is NOT always His best - deal with it!

158 posted on 03/11/2012 2:57:35 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums; reaganaut

Hello boatbums....have been looking at some of Copelands teachings and is no wonder he’s considered a false teacher...he truly has developed his own teachings which go beyond and opposes God’s word and gives the very appearance of Jesus on earth as by the will of men as follows:

Copeland states:

“Jesus existed only as an image in the heart of God, until such time as the prophets of the Old Testament could positively ‘confess Jesus into existence’ through their constant prophecies” ....(Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, pp. 8-10).

He further states:

“Here’s where we’re gonna depart from ordinary church:..... Now, you see, God is injecting His Word into the earth to produce this Jesus—these faith-filled words that framed the image that’s in Him…He can’t just walk onto the earth and say, “Let it be!” because He doesn’t have the right. He had to sneak it in here around the god of this world that was blockin’ every way that he possibly could.”...... (Kenneth Copeland, The Image of God in You III (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989), audiotape #01-1403, side 2.

He continues by adding,...... “God was making promises to Jesus, and Jesus wasn’t even there. But, you see, God deals with things that are not yet as though they already were. That’s the way He gets them to come to pass.”...... (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne (Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990), audiotape #02-0017.)

Copeland states additionally and note the last sentence......”So before Jesus came to the earth, God spoke His Word and then spoke His Word again.... How many times did He say the Messiah was coming It was prophesied over hundreds, even thousands, of years. He kept saying, ‘He is coming. He is ‘coming..... the circumstances in the earth made it look as if there was no way He could accomplish it; but He just kept saying it. He would not be moved by what He saw.... God would not relent.” (the power of the tongue 9-10.) So here God spoke the universe into existence (which the Bible attributes to Jesus)...... but to make him a human it took a long time of confession.


159 posted on 03/11/2012 2:59:04 PM PDT by caww
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To: CynicalBear

Well said!


160 posted on 03/11/2012 2:59:46 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix; CynicalBear
Evidently there’s some notches to be gained in one’s halo for throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit’s operations in this current era.

Do you not see the difference between rebuking false teaching and teachers and "throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit"? Tell me, would you have thrown a rock or two at the Simon Magus types who claimed they healed by the power of God? How about the David Koreshes of the world or the Jim Jones types? They used the SAME defense you are!

161 posted on 03/11/2012 3:06:37 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: metmom; Quix; presently no screen name; caww; boatbums; CynicalBear

If I may ask one basic question here: What is the purpose for speaking in tongues today?


162 posted on 03/11/2012 3:20:03 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: caww
It's all staged and focused on getting to the place where their so called "Holy Spirit" manifestations, by and via their so called "anointed" leader occur. When in fact it is by another spirit I believe this behavior is being promoted and certainly in no way represents the Holy Spirit of God.

We're ALL anointed. Every believer has the same Holy Spirit as any other believer.

The followers of the Charismatic movement have become such big time respecters of persons, contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture.

163 posted on 03/11/2012 3:42:37 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Kandy Atz

It’s persistently slightly fascinating . . .

those who most rant about

“The WORD of God is ENOUGH for me!”

Then seem to doggedly INSIST on mangling, watering down, rationalizing away, trying to neuter etc.

The WORD OF GOD!

Maybe they’re just never satisfied?

Or is it their Proud Control Phreaque obsessions coming out.

I think that’s a huge part of why certain personalities seem to have a super hard time “walking in The Spirit.”

THEY ABJECTLY REFUSE, in any significant sense, to GIVE CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES MORE WHOLESALE TO JESUS!

Sad.


164 posted on 03/11/2012 3:45:31 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: roamer_1

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

PRASIE GOD.

It’s often the overseas missionary who sees more miracles than average. Cultures without so much ‘sophistication’ and ‘finery’ MORE DESPERATLY *NEED* GOD in a long list of ways.

And, TRUE TO HIS WORD, GOD COMES THROUGH according to His Word.

BTW, would appreciate an update. Been about to email you for one.

LUB.


165 posted on 03/11/2012 3:49:18 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut
And it isn’t just related to salvation, I have had more than a few times when the Holy Spirit slapped me upside the head to do something.

Good grief. I'd rather have the Holy Spirit do it that way than let me screw up.

I had something along those lines happen to me. I was heading up an event at church and praying about who to invite and the Lord told me to ask mr. mm. The problem being, I didn't know him at the time. He has just started attending church, I didn't even know his last name, and it went against my personal policy of making the first move when it came to men. But God said *Ask [the future mr. mm]!*

And with that simple statement, came the full knowledge that this would be the man I was going to marry. I just KNEW. It was over a year before that happened, but God does do stuff like that.

But if God wasn't forceful about it, I wouldn't have done it.

Come to think of it, He's pretty forceful with it comes to convicting us of our sin. I don't know anybody who asked God to convict them unto repentance.

166 posted on 03/11/2012 3:50:36 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: reaganaut

Perhaps you’ve been looking in the wrong direction or at the wrong vessels.


167 posted on 03/11/2012 3:50:36 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut
I have a real issue with people who think speaking in tongues is proof of salvation or required of it. I have seen people pushed away from God because they were told they were not really saved if they didn’t speak in tongues. Besides the fact that it adds to grace to make tongues a requirement for salvation.

The bigger danger than the fact that it could shake the faith of a new believer, is that it can give someone confidence that they are saved when they're not. They can go blithely on their way to hell thinking that they're saved because they have the proof of having spoken in tongues when it was either subconsciously manufactured or a counterfeit of the enemy.

168 posted on 03/11/2012 3:53:11 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Lx
By all means, be my guest . . . maintain, with great diligence, your death grip on such convictions.

.

Photobucket

.

Being a fool for Jesus tends to have a LOT of job security.

169 posted on 03/11/2012 3:54:13 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom
The problem is is that materialism has become so rampant in the church today that people think they're entitled to perfect lives here on earth, that they have to have prosperity and health, and think that all that counts is physical comfort and physical blessing. They have totally lost sight of the spiritual aspect of it with their soul prospering.

You are so right! If we think about it soberly and logically we should recognize that the Apostles NEVER preached the false "Name it, Claim it" Gospel. Every one of them died a martyrs' death with the only exception of John, though he survived attempted execution several times. In our country especially, we have grown so lax and lazy that we complain if we miss a meal much less knowing REAL want. How easy it is for us to forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who still face persecution and threat of death and who, through it all, have a faith that is so strong it makes some of ours look like we're just getting started. From adversity comes strength, patience, perseverance and faith. Those who expect an express pass to that point fail to understand it takes the process to get there.

170 posted on 03/11/2012 3:54:35 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Kandy Atz; boatbums
And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing - child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?

If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.

OK. I've been anointed with oil and prayed for by elders according to James, and been anointed with oil and prayed for by faith healers time without count.

Tell me. If God wants to desperately to heal us. Why doesn't He? Why am I NOT healed when I ask in faith according to Scriptural directive?

And I don't want to hear any garbage about the amount of my faith. Jesus healed lots of people who didn't even know who He was.

God is not a weak God that He can't do it in spite of the size of my faith or the faith of the person asking. All anyone needs is faith the size of a grain of mustard seed.

So tell me, if healing is so God's will for us, why are so many people sick? And why am I not healed?

And what do you call martyrdom of believers? By your reasoning, God could be charged with child abuse from Stephen on. It's not just sickness. It's any unpleasant situation.

171 posted on 03/11/2012 4:01:39 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice

All the usages of tongues in Paul’s treatment of the subject refer to foreign languages. “So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into air” (1 Corinthians 14:9).
There is no reason for anyone to speak except to converse intelligibly. The Greek word laleo means “I speak.” The word is never used for mere sound or noise. Nor is it used for a mere mumbling or muttering of unintelligible gibberish. The tongues-speaking in the New Testament was in the native languages of hearing people. The supernatural phenomenon which took place at Pentecost was the exercise of a gift whereby many people from many countries, gathered at Jerusalem, heard God’s message in their own language. This was indeed a miracle of God.

It would be an arbitrary and strange interpretation of Scripture that would make tongues-speaking in the New Testament anything other than known languages. There is no trace of Scriptural evidence that tongues were ever heard by anyone as incoherent, incomprehensible babbling.

http://bible.org/article/speaking-tongues


172 posted on 03/11/2012 4:11:14 PM PDT by caww
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To: metmom
>>The problem is that materialism has become so rampant in the church today that people think they're entitled to perfect lives here on earth, that they have to have prosperity and health, and think that all that counts is physical comfort and physical blessing.<<

And those that do are soon going to find that those things can be gone in a very short time and then they will realize that in comparison to eternity they don’t amount to much. Some think that because they have all those things that God is blessing them but scripture tells us that He sends the rain on the just and the unjust.

173 posted on 03/11/2012 4:12:53 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: caww; reaganaut; boatbums; smvoice; CynicalBear
Sound familiar? He's clearly crossed over and has brought the church to exactly what the 'New Age Occult' teachings and also' Mormonism' teachings which have been saying for years,... that we are all Christed. ........And it not surprising when we have heard such surprising statements like this one from Copeland:

" That nature is like eternal in absolute perfection. ....And that was imparted, injected into your spirit man..... And you have that imparted into you by God just the same as you imparted into your child the nature of humanity. ......Well now, you don't have a human do you? No, you are one..... You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Hard to believe that Satan is STILL getting mileage out of that lie he used on Eve. But there it is, coming right from the mouths of religious figures claiming to speak for Christ.

Acts 12:21-23 21 On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. 22 And the people were shouting, “The voice of a god, and not of a man!” 23 Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

174 posted on 03/11/2012 4:13:56 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice; Quix; presently no screen name; caww; boatbums; CynicalBear
If I may ask one basic question here: What is the purpose for speaking in tongues today?

I keep hearing that it's THE evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That way I can know I've got it.

As if I wouldn't be able to tell that God did something so significant in my life without it.

But I'd be interested in what the tongues defenders have to say.

175 posted on 03/11/2012 4:20:07 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

He’s pretty forceful with it comes to convicting us of our sin.

- - - -
Yeah He is and I am grateful for it. My God is not a ‘hands off’ God at all.


176 posted on 03/11/2012 4:27:38 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Quix

NO, QUIX, I HAVE NOT. OF THAT I AM VERY SURE.


177 posted on 03/11/2012 4:30:19 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: metmom

Or that they are not saved when they are. Security of the believer is an issue I often deal with, both with Ex-cultists and other believers both old and new. I know one woman in particular who accepted Christ as a child but questioned her salvation for years because she was constantly told that if she had faith she would speak in tongues.

On the other side, I read an autobiography of Johnny Cash where he stated that he was a Christian for many years and was surprised when he spoke in tongues. In his case, it only happened once and only between him and God. No public display. That is a huge difference than what is usually promoted and has been stated on this thread.

Again, the specific nature of tongues is not clear in the Bible. For me, it is not a doctrine of salvation and I vehemently oppose those who would make it such. I have bigger fish to fry - the cultists.


178 posted on 03/11/2012 4:35:02 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: metmom

They can go blithely on their way to hell thinking that they’re saved because they have the proof of having spoken in tongues when it was either subconsciously manufactured or a counterfeit of the enemy.

- - - - - -
Which would be very similar to the ‘spirit’ of Mormonism or the Mormon stories of seeing the dead they are doing ‘the work’ for in LDS temples.

Even when I was a Temple LDS, I questioned the validity of those experiences being from God.


179 posted on 03/11/2012 4:37:22 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Quix
>> Where did I ping you to this thread?<<

I think if you will double check your post 112 you will notice that my name is first on that list of who you pinged to your comment.

Lashing out at everyone who disagrees with you hasn’t served you or your position well.

180 posted on 03/11/2012 4:42:27 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Quix
GOD HELP THE CHURCH -- DECEPTION RUNS RAMPANT AND DISCERMENT IS A RARE COMMODITY. Jesus promised the last day deception would "deceive even the very elect if possible." You have question the spiritual birth of those who continue to follow these heretics.

"Kenneth Copeland got his start in ministry as a direct result of memorizing Hagin's messages. It wasn't long before he had learned enough from Hagin to establish his own following. To say his teachings are heretical would be an understatement — blasphemous is more like it. Copeland brashly pronounces God to be the greatest failure of all time, boldly proclaims that "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross" (emphasis in original),26 and describes Christ in hell as an "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit."

181 posted on 03/11/2012 4:42:48 PM PDT by evangmlw
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To: reaganaut

Spot on!


182 posted on 03/11/2012 4:43:08 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

How easy it is for us to forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who still face persecution and threat of death and who, through it all, have a faith that is so strong it makes some of ours look like we’re just getting started.

- - - - - - -
AMEN! I have supported Voice of the Martyrs for years and am always humbled by the experience of believers in other countries and their trials for the cause of Christ.


183 posted on 03/11/2012 4:45:04 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: metmom

Preach it, Sister!


184 posted on 03/11/2012 4:46:24 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut; Quix; boatbums; metmom; caww; Jmouse007
I never said the gifts didn’t exist. [...]

Then we can agree on that in the least... and that those gifts DO in fact include tongues in some form or fashion. What do you suppose that 'form or fashion' to be? Can you define it?

[...] My issue is with those who seek after them as a sign of ‘super spirituality’ and hold over others. That itself is a sin.

Without agreeing with the assertions against Quix personally, I would agree with the premise wholeheartedly. But the same statement, to be fair, should apply broadly to all the gifts, and not just tongues. Surely there is just as much tendency to take any of the gifts and use them poorly in precisely the same fashion. Or to push the point further, any aspect of faith could be used as poorly. Probably the most common 'holier than thou' comes in the form of preachers and church ladies... so much so as to gain credence in comedy skits... My point being stones/glass houses, etc (not pointed at you particularly).

Whole false systems have been born of that 'holier than thou' schtick , as you undoubtedly know in your battles with Mormonism. So why so visceral a reaction to seeing it among those who are charismatic? Rather, one should expect it there just as much as it is everywhere in Christendom.

God chooses which gifts (and not all of them) to which believers for the edification of the Body.

I have often thought about how exactly those gifts are received... I do not subscribe to the notion that they are exactly hierarchical, meaning that one MUST obtain tongues to attain any other (albeit those with greater gifts have a tendency to have experienced the lesser ones in my observation). My own experience with tongues did not come first.

I have never seen edification from speaking in tongues just holier than thou-ness.

My own experience differs - Tongues - and I am speaking of the 'gibberish' that seems to be the offense here - have always come upon me in humility, and with a fair amount of embarrassment, even though I have never spoken in tongues in public, and have always only been standing before YHWH (alone) when they have erupted.

For me, and YMMV, it happens after I get a very good 'hook' when the Spirit comes down... Like my mouth is broadcasting at 28.8 modem speed and my soul is plugged into broadband... My mouth just can't keep up. What is coming out of my physical face winds up being gibberish. But I know what I am saying in prayer, even though it is far beyond the means of 'saying' at all... almost beyond the concept of thought itself.

I am sorry if I cannot describe the experience very well... It is the best analogy that I have at my disposal. I doubt that I will ever speak in tongues in a public setting, because I never have been overcome by the Spirit in public - For me it takes a ton of prayer and something akin to concentration on praise to get to that point. But neither can I fault those who seem to be able to get there easier than me.

And you are reading WAY more into that verse than what it says.

I am not relying wholly upon that verse alone. There is a fascinating bit in Matt 13 after Yeshua is asked why he speaks in parables... and a multitude of comparisons between children of darkness and the children of light - it is the wicked generation that will seek for a sign and not find it - the children of darkness as it were.... it is not saying that the children of light will seek signs and find none.

If it did, it would go against the preponderance of writings which say the children of light will know, and will see... even knowing the time of the end (like 1 Th 5).

185 posted on 03/11/2012 4:48:24 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: metmom

That is what I keep hearing as well.


186 posted on 03/11/2012 4:51:03 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: CynicalBear
Welllllllll fancy that . . .

when folks

evidently

CANNOT tell the DIFFERENCE

between

RESPONDING TO A POST

vs

PINGING SOMEONE to come join a thread . . .

NO WONDER the rather clear language of I Cor 14 is so unfathomable for some folks.

Soooo . . . I ask again . . . where did I ping you to join this thread?

IIRC,

I DIDN'T.

187 posted on 03/11/2012 4:55:54 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: roamer_1

What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

- - - - -
The bible is not clear on it. Therefore we should not be dogmatic about it.


188 posted on 03/11/2012 4:56:29 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Hmmmmmmm

Curious . . .

so . . . what was the interviewing criteria?

How was it you ended up with the group of all those with clunky convictions and representations?


189 posted on 03/11/2012 4:58:03 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: roamer_1

But the same statement, to be fair, should apply broadly to all the gifts, and not just tongues. Surely there is just as much tendency to take any of the gifts and use them poorly in precisely the same fashion.

- - - -
I can agree with this statement. However I have seen holier than thou ness from all types of people in church. And it seems much more rampant among those who view tongues as proof of salvation.


190 posted on 03/11/2012 4:59:15 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: roamer_1

Again you are reading much more into that verse than what is there. What you claim is not what is stated.

This is exactly the kind of thing that I object to among some Charismatics. They create this spiritual hobby around tongues and place it on a much higher plane than the other gifts when Paul himself places it lower than the other gifts.

I’m ambivalent on tongues other than what I have seen and the results of those who focus on it and in that way I see it as leading people to sin rather than to praise God.

I’m for moderation in all things, and sadly, this thread is proof that some Charismatics are not being moderate in their assertions relating to tongues.

I generally avoid these threads, and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues and do not believe any Christian should as well as pointing out that people are putting a televangelist on a pedestal whose teachings are not biblical in at least some areas.

Frankly, I am disgusted by some of the posters on this thread who claim to be believers yet are twisting scripture, focusing on minutae, attacking people’s faith because they don’t speak in tongues or have an illness. It is disgusting and divisive to the Body of Christ and it is coming from the Charismatics.


191 posted on 03/11/2012 5:07:44 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: roamer_1

One last point. Last time I checked, God understands English and every other language. We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.


192 posted on 03/11/2012 5:09:02 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Quix
Quix, these threads are an open forum. Anyone can respond or make comments. I don’t need your “invitation” nor will I be kept off these threads because of your thin skin.

As for your assertion about 1 Cor 14 I’ll just say that taken by itself one would expect to see speaking in tongues from most every believer. Taken in context with the entirety of scripture however not so much.

193 posted on 03/11/2012 5:30:01 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: reaganaut
[roamer_1:] What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

The bible is not clear on it. Therefore we should not be dogmatic about it.

Bravo! That is a fairly brave position to take, and I largely agree with it. However, the matter-of-fact way that it is discussed in the scriptures leads me to believe that the initial audience the scriptures were written for knew exactly what the term implied - It bothers me that something so perfectly understood then has been nearly erased in our thought - Again, I come from the position that the Gifts were evident then (thus delivered), and therefore should be evident now. What bugs me about that is the absence of powerful gifts that were matter-of-fact and powerful in that day.

On a previous thread there was a question: "Why aren't these charismatics hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?" The broader concept which went unnoticed in that debate is "Why aren't CHRISTIANS hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?"

Something important has been lost - Can you see that?

194 posted on 03/11/2012 5:32:00 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom
Amen. "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, HE who raised Christ from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit, who lives in you." I BELIEVE HIM when HE SPEAKS! PRAISE GOD!!

Are you saying that Jesus promised eternal life to our mortal bodies? That our mortal bodies will never die? If you are, then I'm sure that is news to all the Christians THAT HAVE ALREADY DIED! We will have glorified and incorruptible bodies with which to spend eternity in Heaven with our Savior and God, but these mortal, corruptible, fleshly bodies? NOPE! Somebody has told you something that is not true.

I Corinthians 15:50-54
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

195 posted on 03/11/2012 5:33:15 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix; reaganaut
Sooooooooo where on this thread or where ever on FR or where ever anywhere have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing? What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads? SHEESH!

How about that you endorsed Kenneth Copeland on this very thread, assuring everybody that he is entirely Biblical in his teachings and the excerpt I posted from his website that says "everybody baptized in the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues"? Could THAT be it??? Something, BTW, that you have not yet even addressed.

196 posted on 03/11/2012 5:40:21 PM PDT by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
Well, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from telling me what I can and cannot do.

Wow! Do you think you are God? I said I'd appreciate it if you don't speak to me on what 'you think' about God on what HE does/doesn't do.

His thoughts ARE higher than our thoughts and His ways above our ways

Exactly. Didn't I just tell YOU that in my previous post about what 'you think' that you are responding to?

if people would stop trying to "sell" God as the equivalent of a magic genie

Still reducing Him to some worldly level, again, I see. He is NO fairy godmother or Santa Claus.

Short changing God is when anyone presumes to know better than Him about what he does and doesn't do in each individual life.

Now who would be doing that? Suffering IS part of His plan and healing is NOT always His best - deal with it!

I, as a child of God, don't have to deal with suffering as I believe HIM and I am healed and blessed. So I don't have to 'deal' what you are dishing out by your own thoughts and wishful ways.

197 posted on 03/11/2012 5:48:04 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Quix

I just read a few posts to you. You have the patience of a saint! How many were happy to hear your cousin’s healing was manifested? All darts at the one God is using.


198 posted on 03/11/2012 5:55:10 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; ...
GENERIC TO THE NAYSAYERS NEAR & FAR AND WIDE.

We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.

I'll let y'all be the one to tell

ALMIGHTY
OMNISCIENT
OMNIPRESENT
GOD

that HE made a big mistake.

Maybe He'll be thrilled to be corrected by such superior wisdom.

New Living Translation (NLT)

1 Corinthians 14

Tongues and Prophecy

2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious.

4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL PRAY IN THE SPIRIT,[e] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand.

16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

A Call to Orderly Worship
26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one WILL speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

.

Scriptures above Quixicated because some seem to have mentally ripped them out of their Bibles for so long, it is as though they are not there.

Or maybe they are soooooooo uncomfortable and intolerant of those verses and phrases that they have to take a valium when reading I Cor 14.

Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that Apostle Paul needed to submit his manuscript to them for editing before it was included in the Canon.

Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that God just got HIS wires crossed when He transmitted I Corinthians to Paul.

Or maybe they just can't handle or refuse to handle God's way of doing things and so they have to rationalize it all away 12 ways to Sunday so they can sleep more smugly.

Or maybe they're just plain wrong and are toooo stubborn, self-righteous and proud about tongues to submit themselves to God and admit it.

If such Christians allowed satan to rob them of other Biblical truths on the basis of clunky demonstrations of such other Biblical truths in the flawed lives of other believers--they wouldn't believe a word in the Bible at all.

May God have mercy.

199 posted on 03/11/2012 6:06:05 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut
However I have seen holier than thou ness from all types of people in church. And it seems much more rampant among those who view tongues as proof of salvation.

Now, see... I see that differently... as a charismatic in a very old school Protestant assembly, I have always been on the outside looking in. So perhaps it depends wholly upon one's particular point of view.

I can say that I interact with an AOG church for counseling where my Calvinist church dares not to tread... Among them, and among Church of Christ I am treated as a fellow member. I have never run into this "You must speak in tongues to be saved" group you speak of. My credentials among them seem to be sufficient only in that I know what it means to be filled by the Spirit.

200 posted on 03/11/2012 6:06:25 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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