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Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers



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Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc
That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix

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To: reaganaut; Kandy Atz

It’s a tricky business . . .

However, I’m familiar with roles which folks throw lots of rocks at.

I have no huge need to throw rocks at your efforts to hold folks to Biblical standards.

Personally, I extend tons of grace because I need tons of grace.

I am fine about cautioning people about this or that heretically foolish thing some purported Christian—particularly leaders—may spout or write or fling.

I’m less fine about consigning them on my perceptions, criteria—even my interpretation of Biblical criteria—to the categories of deliberate and rank evil.

All the more so when the acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh etc. THAT’S THE BIBLICAL STANDARD.

Lots of other things are arguable.

And I’m not very supportive of consigning folks to evil labels over agruable things.

If they are clearly saying Christ did not come in the flesh;

If they are clearly ascribing evil things to Holy Spirit

that’s one thing.

Lots of other things are arguable and not for me to pronounce heavy handed judgment of others over such arguable things.

Besides . . . I’ve been wrong . . . more than a time or two.

I don’t want to be standing before Almighty God and Him asking me why I was so judgmental about a Brother . . . and turn out, from God’s perspective to have been wrong or mostly wrong . . . or right on the letter but wrong on the spirit of an issue.

No thanks.


51 posted on 03/09/2012 8:15:57 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut; Kandy Atz

Or, put it another way . . .

I’m a recovering haughty prissy judgmentalist censuring prig. My teen and early 20’s years were something else on such scores. Not about to go back there.

The long dark nights of the soul God put me through to burn that stuff out are not anything I want to even remember well—and certainly not to have a refresher course in.


52 posted on 03/09/2012 8:17:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

Their huge primary errors as with most cults . . .

They diminish Christ’s Deity.

They teach salvation by works.

Either one are about as big a red flag as the Christ coming in the flesh issue.


53 posted on 03/09/2012 8:18:59 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

Nope.

Kenneth gives the Glory to God.

My relative and his wife give the Glory to God.

I give the Glory to God.

However, GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth Copeland to heal her through—actually, his wife.

She had been prayed for by all manner of other Christians and pastors. GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth. Take HIS CHOICE up with HIM.


54 posted on 03/09/2012 8:20:28 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

OK, Big Daddy, If you want to unfold my arms, open my heart, mind and spirit with a crowbar and hit me over the head with it—I’ll tolerate it.

God Holy Spirit is NOT about to do things that way. He’s far too much of a Gentleman.
- - - - -

Actually that is exactly what God did to bring me out of Mormonism. I was hit over the head spiritually by the Holy Spirit and that is what opened my eyes. I have also seen similar things in conversions of friends from Atheism to Christ. But that isn’t what I am saying here.

The Bible says we are not to seek after signs (Matthew 12).

In 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 Paul says that not everyone will have every gift. Which means speaking in tongues is not proof of salvation or spirituality. He also considers it a lower not greater gift.

1 Corinthians 14:14-19 states “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. “

It is not a matter of faith, it is a gift that the precise meaning of is unclear. Because I have not spoken in tongues or sought to (since we are not to seek signs) it does not mean I have faith.

I have friends who have spoken in tongues, I have friends who have not. I have been in churches with interpreters present and some where there were no interpreters (unbiblical btw).

Sadly what I am seeing from you is that you are puting way more emphasis on something that is open to interpretation (both in English and in the Greek) and is not a theological hill to die on.


55 posted on 03/09/2012 8:22:07 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Quix; Jmouse007; fishtank

And Copeland isn’t Christ. It sounds to me like your view of Copeland is a little to high and mighty and you are placing him on a pedestal that he doesn’t belong on.

Only Christ is to be praised.

I apply the same criteria and use my God given discernment to all teachers, even my own pastor and yes, even myself. I learned the hard way not to and frankly all televangelists are to be considered suspect, there are far too many who misuse the word of God.

I am saddened to see you focusing on these spiritual hobbies rather than look at the bigger picture.


56 posted on 03/09/2012 8:26:47 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Occasionally, God does give SOME folks a Damascus road or burning bush sort of experience.

NOT MOST folks.

And, Holy Spirit does not PUSH HIMSELF in a forceful way on someone. He may ‘yell’ STOP when someone is about to step in front of a Mac truck.

I have NEVER observed him to FORCEFULLY TAKE CONTROL of someone’s speech muscles against their will or reluctance—forcing them to speak in tongues.

It is more like a dance where HE LEADS—but NOT dragging the person around the dance floor against their will nor with them digging their heels in against the dance.

Where have I said folks should seek the gifts—particularly over THE GIVER? I haven’t.

ST PAUL is the one IN SCRIPTURE who exhorted to:

I Cor 12: KJV
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: . . .

NLT:
31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.

Young’s literal:
31 and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:


So, if one were to take your assertion as Gospel, one would have to throw out that sort of assertion by St Paul.

Paul clearly exhorts Believers to seek the better gifts.

And, Paul clearly exhorts that ALL THE GIFTS are for the edifying and functioning of the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

ALL OF THEM.

There are NO trashy Gifts of Holy Spirit.

NONE.

Except, seemingly, in the minds & hearts of the naysayers.

God have mercy.


57 posted on 03/09/2012 8:34:37 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

BTW, I’ve been writing about this topic off and on on FR for more than 10 years now.

I can’t recall in all that time, ANYONE dealing much at all, if at all—and certainly not remotely logically or well—with the Scriptures I cite—particularly from I Cor 14.

I can understand why. Paul’s statements are clear enough that if folks are going to stick to their convictions, they need to minimize, explain away or ignore those Scriptures.

Not very impressive to observe, however.


58 posted on 03/09/2012 8:36:28 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

That’s how you frame it.

I haven’t watched nor listened to much of Copeland—certainly in the last 30 years.

I respect him as the most balanced and Biblical of Kenneth Hagin’s protoge’s. He’s more Biblical, has, imho, more integrity and congruence with Scripture and more Biblical walked out lived out integrity than Hagin’s own son.

And a lot more humility, imho.

Kenneth’s heart is not hard to discern. He almost wears it on his sleeve. He’s as raw and Texas plain as can be, in most respects. I like that.

I respect him. I am thankful he and wife were used OF GOD to bring Christ’s healing power to my relative’s wife.

No way do I have him on a pedestal. That’s what you’re reading into my posts.

I don’t mind standing up for him against a pack of raving wolves who don’t sound like they understand clue one about the Biblical verses involved in such things.

I have told a number of internationally famous ‘Great Men (and women) of God’ some very stern things. And God has confirmed what I’ve said to them with signs following though all of them rebelled against what I said.

I respect folks calling and anointing and whatever offices and giftings The Lord has layed on them. I don’t respect gross hypocrisy, heresy, foolishness, immorality etc. and am quick to say so.

I don’t mind standing up for the underdog. On this forum, that seems to include a long list of folks that God seems to think enough of to use mightily.

I find most of the carping exactly—as in EXACTLY like the carping of the pharisees 2000 years ago. And I hate it maybe in the same ball park to as much as Christ hated it.


59 posted on 03/09/2012 8:44:12 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

Rather than look at the bigger picture?

Good grief, man . . . how much of my stuff have you read over the years?

How on earth could you even think such a thing!

Sheesh!

I don’t know anyone on here who has written more about the big picture . . .

—END TIMES
—GLOBALISM
—RAPTURE
—2ND COMING
—GREAT TRIBULATION
—ONE WORLD RELIGION
—PROPHECIES ABOUT THE PLANET; THE CHURCH; THE NATION; ISRAEL
—GENERIC GLOBAL EVENS AND TRENDS IMPACTING CHRISTIANITY IN GENERAL
—MISSIONS IN SPECIFIC AND IN GENERAL

. . .

. . .

SIGH.


60 posted on 03/09/2012 8:47:12 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
It was the endlessly petty and pointless sarcasms, the stupid and insulting pictures, the personal insults that so often dominate these religious threads that caused me to avoid them for the most part. Sound familiar?

So by what right do you use the term “sleazy” to describe others?

61 posted on 03/09/2012 11:20:44 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Just calling a spade a spade.

Nice dodge of the point, BTW.


62 posted on 03/10/2012 3:04:29 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change

It’s persistently interesting that the pics and gifs are characterized as stupid.

They seem to quite effectively communicate their points. If they were that stupid, they wouldn’t communicate at all.

As to insulting . . . they aren’t a fraction as insulting as the Scripture mangling they speak to are insulting to God, His truths and His Word.


63 posted on 03/10/2012 3:06:48 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change
Perhaps if you changed the fonts and colours some more it would help your understanding or toss in some of the famous pictures but the comments about tearing pages out of the Bible and attempts at ridicule won't.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I'd be more accurate if I wrote more about white-washed sepulchres, a brood of vipers, ravening wolves, etc.

64 posted on 03/10/2012 3:17:18 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Thanks for the ping!


65 posted on 03/10/2012 7:42:39 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix

I had a book on the Lake miracles I did not remember much on him but just amazing accounts of healing. I do not know this Curry Blake but will check it out. Thank you for ping.


66 posted on 03/10/2012 8:50:25 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

I think you’ll like Curry Blake.

He’s very Texan plain, down to earth, candid, funny, tough, practical, Biblical.

LUB BRO.

I hope you and your family are prepared for looming ‘festivities.’


67 posted on 03/10/2012 8:54:27 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
Really? I'm not going to bother reading something that looks like it came out of a teenager's diary.

If you are talking in tongues and there's no one who can understand it, what does Scripture say? Something about glorifying yourself and not God, yes?

Stick to UFOs.

68 posted on 03/10/2012 9:19:25 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Lx
Slick rationalized dodge instead of dealing with the Scriptures I posted.

However, for the font and color allergic or challenged . . . and to leave you less of an excuse . . .

What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

In view of the Scriptures:

I Cor 12 KJV:
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these workes that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

I COR 14:
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1.Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

2.Romans 8:27

And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

.

Soooooooo how is it that Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer about what's in the heart and mind of the person concerned would offend God The Father or The Son?

PLEASE EXPLAIN to all of us how it is that

He {Holy Spirit} that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Could possibly OFFEND GOD The Father, or God The Son?

Of course, Biblical wisdom and humility might just note that the question was absurd to begin with.

69 posted on 03/10/2012 9:51:43 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

You have freepmail.


70 posted on 03/10/2012 11:35:09 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Thanks for your kind and patient but candid and firm exhortation. Much appreciate your anointed wisdom.


71 posted on 03/10/2012 12:20:34 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; reaganaut

Nice post. I would like to add some of my experience on the subject.

The Law of Love is the first and most important commandment. Ministries/pastors/priests that attack other ministries/pastors/priests are the epitome of NOT walking in love. Preach/teach what you believe, not what you are against. You will win a lot more people to Christ.

It is quite offensive to include Kenneth Copeland in a list with mormons and cults. There is nothing cult-like in anything Kenneth Copeland has ever preached. I say that confidently as I have read literally his entire library, heard many of his tapes/DVDs and seen him teach in person. I am a voracious reader of Christian works and student of the Bible dating back 40+ years. Though my knowledge of the Bible may be better than average, I am always learning more every day by digging in the Word (God’s Wisdom is limitless). The Holy Spirit is a very capable guide when it comes to discerning Truth from error. He has served me well and I am mature enough now to recognize in my spirit when the Word is being taught under a Holy Spirit anointing.

I will give you my brief testimony. I have been at death’s doorstep, having let satan steal everything in my life through lack of knowledge, and Doctors of theology have patted me on the back and told me that God wants me to suffer for the Lord. Thank God I found Believers and teachers that helped me get rid of that garbage. I am still here, praising God and growing in faith 15 years later. I still bristle at people who blame my Heavenly Father for sickness, poverty and death. God is love. He does not abuse His kids!

I should have known better considering what I saw growing up. I could write a book about the miracles I witnessed through my parent’s prayers. My mother was a Spirit-filled, tongue talking dynamo for God. Some here would probably call her a heretic. Her prayers in the Spirit and faith in her Heavenly Father delivered me on many occasions from harm. I was just too immature and had too much religion to appreciate God’s gifts and miracles in manifestation. That often happens to those who know religion, but not God. And I almost paid the ultimate price for that ignorance.

Kenneth Copeland is just one of many ministries that I support that have greatly enhanced my spiritual life. My Mother was a partner, but I thought he was one of those “hucksters on TV.” I was terribly wrong and had to repent of my ignorance and that critical spirit. He is a man of God that sends millions in support of evangelism worldwide. As God directs and blesses me, I support ministries financially and spiritually and I especially enjoy giving to those that are feeding me good spiritual food.

You will know any ministry by their fruit. I see the fruits of Copeland’s ministry - people getting saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, breakthroughs - financial & physical miracles and most importantly the joy of the Lord in their life.

I visit some of my friends’ churches and I see dying churches, teaching an empty theology about an impotent god. It boggles my mind that people speak against God’s will to Bless, heal, save and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and then wonder why their flock is so miserable, broke, sick and dropping like flies.

Teach the Word! That is what changes lives, gets people healed and spiritually reborn!

Preach the Word! That will get people free from demonic attacks and pressure.

Speak/Hear the Word! That is how faith comes and there is nothing impossible to those that believe!

Share the Word! The Word=Truth=Light=Wisdom=Faith=Love=Jesus!

Live by the Word! Without the faith that comes from the Word, you can do nothing and you certainly can’t please God! (Hebrews 11:6)

If you want to preach a dead religion - preach on brother. It is a free country for now. But don’t attack ministries that are truly following God’s command to: heal the sick, cast out devils, be filled with the Holy Spirit, imitate Christ and evangelize the world. My Heavenly Father is always working, and thankfully, there are Christians out there introducing Him into people’s lives and getting them connected to their Savior and Lord.

One final thought - I take Paul’s description to heart (1 Corinthians 12). We are all parts of the Body of Christ. We are not all hands or eyes. There are teachers, evangelists, pastors and a host of less glamorous roles, none of which are less important to the Body. But when jealousy and strife enter the picture, it is like cancer in the Body. I rejoice in ANYONE that wants to preach or teach the Word. I may not agree with certain church dogma or tradition, but I still respect their role in the Body. If someone has accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord, they are my brother and sister in Christ! We all need to remember that. If correction or debate is needed, it can be done in love without calling someone a fraud or heretic.


72 posted on 03/10/2012 3:32:51 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz

Your post is interesting however I hear the same stuff from Mormons and they, too, are wrong. They accuse us ‘antis’ of not loving them because we point out the errors of Mormonism. We point out the errors BECAUSE we love them, not because we do not.

Wrong teaching on things the Bible is clear on is heresy and needs to be called out.

One of my biggest issues with all televangelists is that they swindle and twist scripture and their followers blindly defend them and almost worship them. It is really worrisome.

And you will know PROPHETS by their fruit, not TV ministries. Again that is twisting what the Bible really says.

BTW, where did I preach against blessing, healing or the word of God or preach a dead religion. You have no clue about me or who I am or my faith.


73 posted on 03/10/2012 3:46:14 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Kandy Atz

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

I listened to a bunch of Kenneth’s tapes about 1972.

I don’t recall hearing anything very alarming. Certainly nothing more heretical than any local preacher might spout.

I’ve never met a preacher that didn’t have a quirk or 3 about his theology or Biblical interpretation.

The I Cor 12 stuff is a good point.

However, the naysayers seem to feed on, breathe, live to EXCLUDE while they wail about feeling excluded because they don’t speak in tongues.

Gimme a break. Sheesh.

Ever since I left behind the AoG business about tongues being THE sign of the infilling of Holy Spirit, I’ve been pretty laisez faire about such things . . . EXCEPT where there’s fierce opposition and hostility to what I know to be a clear and valid Holy Spirit manifestation, gifting.

The double standard stuff I don’t relate well to, at all.

They usually cry LOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT while they are applying the whip to one’s back and one’s body to the rack in the discussion. Sheesh I hate double standards.

I believe in tough love and am happy to take it whenever remotely fitting.

However, this business of all the warm and fuzzy love has to flow one and only one direction is nonsense.

And, as the years have gone by, particularly on FR, I’ve increasingly realized that the whole hostility to tongues and modern operation of the I Cor 12-14 gifts of Holy Spirit is a doctrine of demons from the pit. Cessationism is wholesale from the pit of hell and I’m no longer timid about saying so.

Why anyone would think Paul was giving ANYTHING ELSE BUT a script for the New Testament era operation of church life in I Corinthians or any of his other letters . . . is utterly MYSTIFYING to me. What idiocy.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air your post represented.

I thoroughly agree.


74 posted on 03/10/2012 4:17:50 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut

I was making general statements with regard to what traditional religion sometimes teaches and I have experienced. They are usually the first to attack any evangelist or ministry that teaches anything spiritual, faith-based or miraculous. I was not implying you. I apologize if it was taken that way.

I understand your angst with televangelists and there are probably a few that are out in left field. I have had the same feelings at one point in my life about a few. But this thread was specifically talking about Kenneth Copeland. Attempting to paint him as any kind of cult leader or Mormon-like ministry is HIGHLY offensive and unjustified.

I know his work well. He does not teach from the Book of Mormon. Nor is he a cult leader. Nor is he attempting to create a religion or denomination. People do not “worship” him in any fashion whatsoever. He does not “twist” the Word or “swindle” anyone. To suggest any similarity to a cult is silly.

On the fruit from Galatians 5:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

It would appear to me that EVERY Born Again Believer can and should bear fruit of the Spirit. And I would suggest that ministries and churches can collectively bear fruit as well. You may disagree. They are certainly sowing seed and reaping a harvest one way or another.

I would also suggest, not imply you specifically, but suggest that far too many “heresy hunters” major on Matthew 7:15-20 (wolf in sheep’s clothing). The HHs are so desperate to find the hidden wolves that they never examine the fruit. They tend to totally ignore Galatians 5 as a guide. Even the disciples were miffed that other people were casting out demons in Jesus name. They told them to stop. But Jesus told the disciples “anyone not against us is for us.” (Mark 9 and Luke 9)

Maybe you just have a problem with anyone who appears on television? I am not sure how that disqualifies someone from teaching/preaching the Word. It is a most effective way of reaching hurting and lost people all over the world.

I don’t care if you like Kenneth Copeland or not. I get no brownie points defending him, and I am sure he wouldn’t care one way or the other. But please do not relate what he and his ministry do to mormonism or cults. That is ridiculous.

One can only be “wrong” in a thread so many times and apparently I have hit my limit. May God bless your work with freeing folks from the real cults.

BTW - You don’t know me either, or what is in my heart or Kenneth Copeland’s heart.


75 posted on 03/10/2012 5:56:17 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Quix
From the Kenneth Copeland website http://www.kcm.org/real-help/article/how-receive-baptism-holy-spirit in answer to the question under the heading, Salvation, How to Receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, he says:

    When you receive Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, spiritual death is taken from you and you become a new creature in Christ. And without the Holy Spirit, your new birth wouldn’t be possible. But even after you become a new creation, God’s desire and plan is that you receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    Your baptism in the Holy Spirit is received by faith. Jesus said in Luke 11:13, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” When you ask in faith, the Holy Spirit comes to live in you. And when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, as in the book of Acts, you speak in tongues.

    Speaking in tongues is simply speaking in a language that only God understands—even you won’t understand it. This happens as the Holy Spirit prays through you about things you may not know about or may not know how to pray about (Romans 8:26).

    The Holy Spirit was sent to be our Helper. So when you pray in tongues, what actually happens is that the Holy Spirit searches your heart and prays through you the perfect will of God (Romans 8:26-27). You actually utter the secret truths and hidden things which are not obvious to the understanding of your mind (I Corinthians 14:2, The Amplified Bible).

    To pray in tongues, you need to realize that speaking with an unknown tongue is the voice of your heart. Speaking in a known tongue is the voice of the human mind (unless one of the vocal gifts of the nine gifts of the Spirit is in operation). The Holy Spirit of God will give you utterance, the same as your mind gives you thoughts to speak (Acts 2:4).

    To speak in tongues, you must operate with the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 14:14, “For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive…” (The Amplified Bible).

    Notice that it was Paul who did the speaking. Ask the Holy Spirit to take charge of your tongue, then yield your tongue to His use. You cannot speak in your own language and tongues at the same time, just as you cannot speak with English and French at the same time. When your voice and tongue begin forming syllables around the expression that your heart desires to release, you will also speak in tongues. It will be your tongue, your breath, your vocal cords and you will be actively forming words. You will supply the sounds, but the Holy Spirit will supply the words—words unknown to you. It may seem awkward to you at first, but continue. Like a child learning to speak, you will grow.

    Finally, as you seek the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, you need not wait to get a word from God about it—you already have His Word—nor do you need to wait around for the Spirit. The Spirit of God entered His ministry on the Day of Pentecost and He has been here ever since. He has never left!

    Furthermore, you need not be concerned over being deceived and ending up with something that is from the devil. When you ask your heavenly Father for one of His promises—as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit—you can be confident the gift given is from God, not Satan.

    Remember, Luke 11:13 says, “…how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” So if you want to receive your baptism in the Holy Spirit, ask Him now.

    “Heavenly Father, I am a believer. I am Your child and You are my Father. Jesus is my Lord. I believe with all my heart that Your Word is true.

    “Your Word says if I will ask, I will receive the Holy Spirit. So in the Name of Jesus Christ, my Lord, I am asking You to fill me to overflowing with Your precious Holy Spirit. Jesus, baptize me in the Holy Spirit.

    “Because of Your Word, I believe that I now receive and I thank You for it. I believe the Holy Spirit is within me and, by faith, I accept it.

    “Now, Holy Spirit, rise up within me as I praise God. I fully expect to speak with other tongues, as You give me the utterance.”

    Now begin giving sound to the expressions in your heart. Speak and hear the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

    Rejoice! You’ve just been baptized in the Holy Spirit! You’ve been endued with power—hallelujah!

Do you agree with Rev. Copeland on this, that being baptized in the Holy Spirit always means speaking in tongues? What about Paul's admonition in I Corinthians 12:30, "Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?"? I would also question the extravagance of their ministry and their lavish lifestyle with Rolls Royces, private jets, mansions, especially when an elder or leader of the church is exemplified by "not a lover of money". Again, no one is saying God doesn't STILL do miracles in people's lives, just that those who claim to have this special "anointing" these days are nothing at all like those who legitimately had those gifts in the first century. Nor do they preach the Gospel of our salvation as their primary concern. For too many it is a money-making scheme where THEY are the ones glorified instead of God. If they truly had these gifts (tongues, healing, prophecy) today, it would be an entirely different ball game. Sorry, I don't accept them or their motives.

76 posted on 03/10/2012 8:06:41 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

Take it up with his Boss.


77 posted on 03/10/2012 8:31:30 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Kandy Atz

INDEED.

I thoroughly agree.

And I PRAISE GOD that Kenneth et al walk as much in Holy Spirits gifts, anointing and ministry as they do.

For all his and Gloria’s flaws, that’s at least greatly more than most of the ministers I’ve been familiar with or heard of in the FROZEN CHOSEN congregations do.


78 posted on 03/10/2012 8:34:51 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Kandy Atz

People are more or less free to go on

accusing Kenneth of operating in the flesh or worse under a demonic ‘counterfeit anointing’ if they wish.

God knows differently.
You and I know differently.

Time will tell.

We shall see how many gilded buckets of rocks earn awards for their throwers.


79 posted on 03/10/2012 8:36:23 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; count-your-change; metmom
I wonder why the need to post this thread in an OPEN Religion Forum if no one is allowed to post opposing views without the sarcasm, derision, accusations of ignorance and doubt as to ones fidelity to the Word of God? Wasn't this the VERY reason that last thread was closed?

Really, Quix, you post a vanity thread, threaten with your scorn and then prematurely presume everyone who fails to see the Quixicated world view is "unbiblical", "irrational", "thrashers of Holy Spirit's works" and overall incapable of seeing the powerful hand of Almighty God at work in the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Why try it all over again if you start out on the SAME exact footing? Wouldn't you be better off posting this to another site where Scriptural views are stated to everyone who believes the same things?

You defend what you call the gift of the Holy Spirit of "speaking in tongues", so, other than the few anecdotes of friends of friends or someone long ago who did demonstrate the legitimate gift - though you weren't there and only heard it second or third hand - have YOU ever exhibited the ability to tell the Gospel to a person who didn't speak your language? When you worked in China, did you ever suddenly gain the ability to speak Chinese to someone who wanted to learn of Jesus Christ? Is the only experience you have with this "gift" the internal, benefiting yourself, edifying yourself kind?

I'm definitely NOT interested in the same game as last time as these are serious questions - just as last time from me. Can you, will you, be able to discuss this subject with other Christians in a respectful and dignified way? Or is it always going to be a matter of you "defending" the Holy Spirit's honor against heretics? If the latter is the case, then you may want to desist in posting these kinds of threads because all it seems to do is bring out the fangs and cause dissension, not to mention the bruised relationships.

80 posted on 03/10/2012 9:04:58 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

Not my reality.

Engage in whatever you feel comfortable and led to engage in.

I don’t feel inclined to play.


81 posted on 03/10/2012 9:16:55 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: reaganaut
God uses people like me in exposing heresies. He uses His followers. Does He NEED me? No. Does He USE me for His purposes? Yes. And not just me.

I thank God for people like you as you serve a very important purpose. How many lives have been ruined because somebody followed after a charlatan who no one dared to challenge? We need even MORE who will stand for the truth of God's word and defeat the demonic forces that pose as angels of light and ministers of righteousness. I'm sure Satan would love nothing more than for everyone to just leave them alone and "let God sort them out".

The Pharisee Gamaliel's statement of "Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39) is used to presume that God will stop false teachers so we need do nothing, although anything of God can NOT be stopped, Gamaliel was NOT a prophet nor was he totally correct as we see all kinds of false teachers and teaching around, some of them even older than Christianity. No, God gave us Scripture so that we CAN reprove, rebuke and exhort according to the standard of truth - the Holy Scriptures. And we are exhorted to test the spirits to see if they are from God, how else to do that than by the infallible authority of the Scriptures.

82 posted on 03/10/2012 9:25:02 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: count-your-change
Speaking in tongues is of no importance to the mature Christian church.

Or the mature Christian.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

83 posted on 03/10/2012 9:31:17 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix; Jmouse007; fishtank; reaganaut
Kenneth Copeland asserts that Jesus is the Christ; That Jesus came in the flesh; Was crucified for our sins; Rose the third day etc. etc. etc.

Mormons SAY the same thing as well. Do you think they're Christians?

84 posted on 03/10/2012 9:41:51 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix; reaganaut; metmom
BTW, I’ve been writing about this topic off and on on FR for more than 10 years now. I can’t recall in all that time, ANYONE dealing much at all, if at all—and certainly not remotely logically or well—with the Scriptures I cite—particularly from I Cor 14. I can understand why. Paul’s statements are clear enough that if folks are going to stick to their convictions, they need to minimize, explain away or ignore those Scriptures. Not very impressive to observe, however.

My, your memory is short! You HAVE been given Scripture as well as your Scriptures addressed. Nobody has been able to "deal with" your Scripture quotes? All we've done is "ignore", "minimize" and "explain" them away? Go back and read that last thread, the one that got closed because of "childishness". To start with, those verses in Corinthians most certainly DO say things that it appears YOU may be minimizing. Especially the one where the gifts would "cease". Also, the order of worship Paul admonished the carnal Corinthians about was because they were doing some of the exact same things churches do today that believe the tongue gifts are still here. Why do THOSE get ignored? You know, the ones about two or three at the most, one at a time, women keep silent, someone to "interpret", not for the believer but for the unbeliever, stuff like that?

What is not so impressive to observe is how gullible some people are to believe the "unknown" sounds and actions (grunts, barking, other animal sounds, laughing) MUST be a sign of the Holy Spirit. What is worse, is those who swallow every word of these "preachers" as the gospel truth and neglect to search the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. THAT is not so impressive and that is how Satan so easily deceives.

85 posted on 03/10/2012 9:43:13 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix; reaganaut; Kandy Atz
I’m a recovering haughty prissy judgmentalist censuring prig. My teen and early 20’s years were something else on such scores. Not about to go back there.

Go back? Quix, based on your posts, you haven't left yet.

86 posted on 03/10/2012 9:45:42 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

87 posted on 03/10/2012 9:47:59 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix; reaganaut
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Occasionally, God does give SOME folks a Damascus road or burning bush sort of experience. NOT MOST folks. And, Holy Spirit does not PUSH HIMSELF in a forceful way on someone.

And you know this how? What are your Scripture references - chapter and verse?

On what basis do you decide that the Holy Spirit does not push Himself on others?

88 posted on 03/10/2012 9:53:16 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Lx; Quix
If you are talking in tongues and there's no one who can understand it, what does Scripture say? Something about glorifying yourself and not God, yes?

1 Corinthians 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

1 Corinthians 14:7-9 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

1 Corinthians 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:22-23 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

89 posted on 03/10/2012 10:01:27 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix; boatbums

bb asked some valid questions of YOU.

Why don’t YOU answer them?


90 posted on 03/10/2012 10:05:20 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Joya; daniel1212
A refresher list of Scriptures for those who persistently sound like they've functionally ripped them out of their Bibles:

I Cor 12: 7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice[b]; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.[c] 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages,[d] while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

.

Some of us are of the opinion that HOLY SPIRIT simply CANNOT give gifts which are

Of NO importance to the mature Christian.

By definition, ALL HOLY SPIRIT DOES AND GIVES IS WORTHWHILE AND IMPORTANT FOR MATURE CHRISTIANS.

Folks who disagree can argue with Holy Spirit about it.

I Cor 12:
18 But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”

27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages.

29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.

1 Corinthians 14

Tongues and Prophecy
1 Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. 2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[j] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[k] but it will all be mysterious. 3 But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. 4 A person who speaks in tongues IS strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

5 I wish you could ALL speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

6 Dear brothers and sisters,[l] if I should come to you speaking in an unknown language,[m] how would that help you? But if I bring you a revelation or some special knowledge or prophecy or teaching, that will be helpful. 7 Even lifeless instruments like the flute or the harp must play the notes clearly, or no one will recognize the melody. 8 And if the bugler doesn’t sound a clear call, how will the soldiers know they are being called to battle?

9 It’s the same for you. If you speak to people in words they don’t understand, how will they know what you are saying? You might as well be talking into empty space.

10 There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. 11 But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. 12 And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church.

13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I PRAY IN TONGUES, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL pray in the spirit,[n] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand. 16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You WILL BE giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

18 I THANK GOD that I speak in tongues MORE THAN any of you. 19 But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.

20 Dear brothers and sisters, don’t be childish in your understanding of these things. Be innocent as babies when it comes to evil, but be mature in understanding matters of this kind. 21 It is written in the Scriptures[o]:

“I will speak to my own people
through strange languages
and through the lips of foreigners.
But even then, they will not listen to me,”
[p] says the LORD.

22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. 23 Even so, if unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your church meeting and hear everyone speaking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. 24 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. 25 As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, “God is truly here among you.”

A Call to Orderly Worship 26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

27 No more than two or three SHOULD speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. 28 But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.

29 Let two or three people prophesy, and let the others evaluate what is said. 30 But if someone is prophesying and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who is speaking must stop. 31 In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32 Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.[q]

. . . 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.[r]

. . .
39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and DON'T FORBID speaking in tongues. 40 But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.

.

I trust St Paul's words of SCRIPTURE to be MUCH MORE ACCURATE about God's priorities for MATURE CHRISTIANS and for churches in the whole of the church era . . . than I do 10,000 personal opinions contrary to said Scripture.

For those given to throwing away those verses and/or sentences . . . if they would mangle and trash Scripture, there's no end of mayhem they'll continue to do with my poor words. That'll have to be between them and God. I don't care to contribute unnecessarily to futile dialogue with such perspectives, attitudes and habits.

91 posted on 03/10/2012 10:07:52 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Joya; daniel1212; boatbums; count-your-change; fishtank; Jmouse007; ...
What about this list of gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Why don't we ever hear about this list being taught on and sought after?

Romans 12:3-8 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Where are tongues listed in this written later than Corinthians letter? This letter written to a more mature and less carnal and sin filled church?

92 posted on 03/10/2012 10:13:47 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Joya; daniel1212; boatbums; count-your-change; caww; CynicalBear; ...

And what the heck version of Scripture are you using?

It doesn’t sound like any legitimate translation, but rather a paraphrase like The Living Bible or The Message, which takes a lot of liberties in its restating of Scripture.


93 posted on 03/10/2012 10:24:39 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Thank you. Agreed. The speaking in tongues served a valuable purpose in establishing the Christian church but was one of those gifts to pass away.


94 posted on 03/10/2012 10:27:36 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom

Actually,

The NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

is one of the most respected scholarly translations available currently.

The meaning is the same in a list of the better translations, however.


95 posted on 03/10/2012 10:37:09 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom

If you wish to start a thread on those issues,

help yourself.

Clearly my words of agreement have not registered multiple times before.

I don’t expect them to register now.


96 posted on 03/10/2012 10:38:27 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Kandy Atz
I still bristle at people who blame my Heavenly Father for sickness, poverty and death. God is love. He does not abuse His kids!

PREACH IT!!! You are a breath of fresh air and it's obvious, you KNOW HIM!

97 posted on 03/10/2012 10:44:10 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; Kandy Atz

INDEED.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!


98 posted on 03/10/2012 10:51:15 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name; Kandy Atz

I think there are some mysteries . . . particularly with some folks along some of these lines and issues.

However, on the whole, I think that’s essentially quite thoroughly accurate.

PRAISE GOD.


99 posted on 03/10/2012 10:52:24 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix; metmom
I trust St Paul's words of SCRIPTURE to be MUCH MORE ACCURATE about God's priorities for MATURE CHRISTIANS and for churches in the whole of the church era . . . than I do 10,000 personal opinions contrary to said Scripture. For those given to throwing away those verses and/or sentences . . . if they would mangle and trash Scripture, there's no end of mayhem they'll continue to do with my poor words. That'll have to be between them and God. I don't care to contribute unnecessarily to futile dialogue with such perspectives, attitudes and habits.

Who's throwing away any verses? We all agree that Paul was speaking of valid gifts that the Holy Spirit gave and they had a specific use AND purpose. Are you throwing out I Cor. 13:8, "...whether there be tongues, they shall cease"? Just who is mangling or trashing Scripture when what passes as the sign gift of tongues in the first century is now used by many people all at once, to puff up, in the church, among believers, with no one interpreting, and, if someone actually says they know what the person said, usually it is something inane and little more than platitudes or repetition of Scripture already revealed? Why does it seem those parts are "functionally" ripped out of Bibles because they are all but ignored?

I am perfectly accepting of ALL of Scripture, including the time frames laid out by God and this gift of tongues - which seems to be SO important that some risk accusing fellow Christians of speaking from the "pit", calling their views demonic - and I accept that some of these special gifts have ceased, just as Paul said they would. There is no more supernatural revelation or revealed knowledge, because we have the complete Word of God. So also there is no more need for the supernatural sign gift of tongues, since the Bible also is here. Not to mention, rarely, if not never, is someone who supposedly has this gift, been able to speak the foreign language of the person God brings to them to tell the Gospel. If that were the case, traveling evangelists wouldn't need translators at their revivals.

Tongues were given for a set purpose and their reason for existing was:

    In revelation

    In Knowledge

    In prophecy

    In doctrine

And the Word of God does all those today. The theme of I Corinthians 12 was NOT given for instruction in speaking in tongues, but rather to edify the whole church. Like Paul said, speaking words that can be understood is what edifies and that is to be desired.
100 posted on 03/10/2012 11:22:34 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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