Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[count-your-change]

It was the endlessly petty and pointless sarcasms, the stupid and insulting pictures, the personal insults that so often dominate these religious threads that caused me to avoid them for the most part. Sound familiar?

So by what right do you use the term “sleazy” to describe others?

[Quix]

Just calling a spade a spade.

Nice dodge of the point, BTW.

[Quix]

It’s persistently interesting that the pics and gifs are characterized as stupid.

They seem to quite effectively communicate their points. If they were that stupid, they wouldn’t communicate at all.

As to insulting . . . they aren’t a fraction as insulting as the Scripture mangling they speak to are insulting to God, His truths and His Word.

[Quix]

Perhaps if you changed the fonts and colours some more it would help your understanding or toss in some of the famous pictures but the comments about tearing pages out of the Bible and attempts at ridicule won't.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I'd be more accurate if I wrote more about white-washed sepulchres, a brood of vipers, ravening wolves, etc.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[johngrace]

I had a book on the Lake miracles I did not remember much on him but just amazing accounts of healing. I do not know this Curry Blake but will check it out. Thank you for ping.

[Quix]

I think you’ll like Curry Blake.

He’s very Texan plain, down to earth, candid, funny, tough, practical, Biblical.

LUB BRO.

I hope you and your family are prepared for looming ‘festivities.’

[Lx]

Really? I'm not going to bother reading something that looks like it came out of a teenager's diary.

If you are talking in tongues and there's no one who can understand it, what does Scripture say? Something about glorifying yourself and not God, yes?

Stick to UFOs.

[Quix]

Slick rationalized dodge instead of dealing with the Scriptures I posted.

However, for the font and color allergic or challenged . . . and to leave you less of an excuse . . .

What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

In view of the Scriptures:

I Cor 12 KJV:
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these workes that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

I COR 14:
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1.Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

2.Romans 8:27

And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

.

Soooooooo how is it that Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer about what's in the heart and mind of the person concerned would offend God The Father or The Son?

PLEASE EXPLAIN to all of us how it is that

He {Holy Spirit} that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Could possibly OFFEND GOD The Father, or God The Son?

Of course, Biblical wisdom and humility might just note that the question was absurd to begin with.

[reaganaut]

You have freepmail.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind and patient but candid and firm exhortation. Much appreciate your anointed wisdom.

[Kandy Atz]

Nice post. I would like to add some of my experience on the subject.

The Law of Love is the first and most important commandment. Ministries/pastors/priests that attack other ministries/pastors/priests are the epitome of NOT walking in love. Preach/teach what you believe, not what you are against. You will win a lot more people to Christ.

It is quite offensive to include Kenneth Copeland in a list with mormons and cults. There is nothing cult-like in anything Kenneth Copeland has ever preached. I say that confidently as I have read literally his entire library, heard many of his tapes/DVDs and seen him teach in person. I am a voracious reader of Christian works and student of the Bible dating back 40+ years. Though my knowledge of the Bible may be better than average, I am always learning more every day by digging in the Word (God’s Wisdom is limitless). The Holy Spirit is a very capable guide when it comes to discerning Truth from error. He has served me well and I am mature enough now to recognize in my spirit when the Word is being taught under a Holy Spirit anointing.

I will give you my brief testimony. I have been at death’s doorstep, having let satan steal everything in my life through lack of knowledge, and Doctors of theology have patted me on the back and told me that God wants me to suffer for the Lord. Thank God I found Believers and teachers that helped me get rid of that garbage. I am still here, praising God and growing in faith 15 years later. I still bristle at people who blame my Heavenly Father for sickness, poverty and death. God is love. He does not abuse His kids!

I should have known better considering what I saw growing up. I could write a book about the miracles I witnessed through my parent’s prayers. My mother was a Spirit-filled, tongue talking dynamo for God. Some here would probably call her a heretic. Her prayers in the Spirit and faith in her Heavenly Father delivered me on many occasions from harm. I was just too immature and had too much religion to appreciate God’s gifts and miracles in manifestation. That often happens to those who know religion, but not God. And I almost paid the ultimate price for that ignorance.

Kenneth Copeland is just one of many ministries that I support that have greatly enhanced my spiritual life. My Mother was a partner, but I thought he was one of those “hucksters on TV.” I was terribly wrong and had to repent of my ignorance and that critical spirit. He is a man of God that sends millions in support of evangelism worldwide. As God directs and blesses me, I support ministries financially and spiritually and I especially enjoy giving to those that are feeding me good spiritual food.

You will know any ministry by their fruit. I see the fruits of Copeland’s ministry - people getting saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, breakthroughs - financial & physical miracles and most importantly the joy of the Lord in their life.

I visit some of my friends’ churches and I see dying churches, teaching an empty theology about an impotent god. It boggles my mind that people speak against God’s will to Bless, heal, save and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and then wonder why their flock is so miserable, broke, sick and dropping like flies.

Teach the Word! That is what changes lives, gets people healed and spiritually reborn!

Preach the Word! That will get people free from demonic attacks and pressure.

Speak/Hear the Word! That is how faith comes and there is nothing impossible to those that believe!

Share the Word! The Word=Truth=Light=Wisdom=Faith=Love=Jesus!

Live by the Word! Without the faith that comes from the Word, you can do nothing and you certainly can’t please God! (Hebrews 11:6)

If you want to preach a dead religion - preach on brother. It is a free country for now. But don’t attack ministries that are truly following God’s command to: heal the sick, cast out devils, be filled with the Holy Spirit, imitate Christ and evangelize the world. My Heavenly Father is always working, and thankfully, there are Christians out there introducing Him into people’s lives and getting them connected to their Savior and Lord.

One final thought - I take Paul’s description to heart (1 Corinthians 12). We are all parts of the Body of Christ. We are not all hands or eyes. There are teachers, evangelists, pastors and a host of less glamorous roles, none of which are less important to the Body. But when jealousy and strife enter the picture, it is like cancer in the Body. I rejoice in ANYONE that wants to preach or teach the Word. I may not agree with certain church dogma or tradition, but I still respect their role in the Body. If someone has accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord, they are my brother and sister in Christ! We all need to remember that. If correction or debate is needed, it can be done in love without calling someone a fraud or heretic.

[reaganaut]

Your post is interesting however I hear the same stuff from Mormons and they, too, are wrong. They accuse us ‘antis’ of not loving them because we point out the errors of Mormonism. We point out the errors BECAUSE we love them, not because we do not.

Wrong teaching on things the Bible is clear on is heresy and needs to be called out.

One of my biggest issues with all televangelists is that they swindle and twist scripture and their followers blindly defend them and almost worship them. It is really worrisome.

And you will know PROPHETS by their fruit, not TV ministries. Again that is twisting what the Bible really says.

BTW, where did I preach against blessing, healing or the word of God or preach a dead religion. You have no clue about me or who I am or my faith.

[Quix]

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

I listened to a bunch of Kenneth’s tapes about 1972.

I don’t recall hearing anything very alarming. Certainly nothing more heretical than any local preacher might spout.

I’ve never met a preacher that didn’t have a quirk or 3 about his theology or Biblical interpretation.

The I Cor 12 stuff is a good point.

However, the naysayers seem to feed on, breathe, live to EXCLUDE while they wail about feeling excluded because they don’t speak in tongues.

Gimme a break. Sheesh.

Ever since I left behind the AoG business about tongues being THE sign of the infilling of Holy Spirit, I’ve been pretty laisez faire about such things . . . EXCEPT where there’s fierce opposition and hostility to what I know to be a clear and valid Holy Spirit manifestation, gifting.

The double standard stuff I don’t relate well to, at all.

They usually cry LOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT while they are applying the whip to one’s back and one’s body to the rack in the discussion. Sheesh I hate double standards.

I believe in tough love and am happy to take it whenever remotely fitting.

However, this business of all the warm and fuzzy love has to flow one and only one direction is nonsense.

And, as the years have gone by, particularly on FR, I’ve increasingly realized that the whole hostility to tongues and modern operation of the I Cor 12-14 gifts of Holy Spirit is a doctrine of demons from the pit. Cessationism is wholesale from the pit of hell and I’m no longer timid about saying so.

Why anyone would think Paul was giving ANYTHING ELSE BUT a script for the New Testament era operation of church life in I Corinthians or any of his other letters . . . is utterly MYSTIFYING to me. What idiocy.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air your post represented.

I thoroughly agree.

[Kandy Atz]

I was making general statements with regard to what traditional religion sometimes teaches and I have experienced. They are usually the first to attack any evangelist or ministry that teaches anything spiritual, faith-based or miraculous. I was not implying you. I apologize if it was taken that way.

I understand your angst with televangelists and there are probably a few that are out in left field. I have had the same feelings at one point in my life about a few. But this thread was specifically talking about Kenneth Copeland. Attempting to paint him as any kind of cult leader or Mormon-like ministry is HIGHLY offensive and unjustified.

I know his work well. He does not teach from the Book of Mormon. Nor is he a cult leader. Nor is he attempting to create a religion or denomination. People do not “worship” him in any fashion whatsoever. He does not “twist” the Word or “swindle” anyone. To suggest any similarity to a cult is silly.

On the fruit from Galatians 5:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

It would appear to me that EVERY Born Again Believer can and should bear fruit of the Spirit. And I would suggest that ministries and churches can collectively bear fruit as well. You may disagree. They are certainly sowing seed and reaping a harvest one way or another.

I would also suggest, not imply you specifically, but suggest that far too many “heresy hunters” major on Matthew 7:15-20 (wolf in sheep’s clothing). The HHs are so desperate to find the hidden wolves that they never examine the fruit. They tend to totally ignore Galatians 5 as a guide. Even the disciples were miffed that other people were casting out demons in Jesus name. They told them to stop. But Jesus told the disciples “anyone not against us is for us.” (Mark 9 and Luke 9)

Maybe you just have a problem with anyone who appears on television? I am not sure how that disqualifies someone from teaching/preaching the Word. It is a most effective way of reaching hurting and lost people all over the world.

I don’t care if you like Kenneth Copeland or not. I get no brownie points defending him, and I am sure he wouldn’t care one way or the other. But please do not relate what he and his ministry do to mormonism or cults. That is ridiculous.

One can only be “wrong” in a thread so many times and apparently I have hit my limit. May God bless your work with freeing folks from the real cults.

BTW - You don’t know me either, or what is in my heart or Kenneth Copeland’s heart.

[boatbums]

From the Kenneth Copeland website http://www.kcm.org/real-help/article/how-receive-baptism-holy-spirit in answer to the question under the heading, Salvation, How to Receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, he says:

When you receive Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, spiritual death is taken from you and you become a new creature in Christ. And without the Holy Spirit, your new birth wouldn’t be possible. But even after you become a new creation, God’s desire and plan is that you receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Your baptism in the Holy Spirit is received by faith. Jesus said in Luke 11:13, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” When you ask in faith, the Holy Spirit comes to live in you. And when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, as in the book of Acts, you speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues is simply speaking in a language that only God understands—even you won’t understand it. This happens as the Holy Spirit prays through you about things you may not know about or may not know how to pray about (Romans 8:26).

The Holy Spirit was sent to be our Helper. So when you pray in tongues, what actually happens is that the Holy Spirit searches your heart and prays through you the perfect will of God (Romans 8:26-27). You actually utter the secret truths and hidden things which are not obvious to the understanding of your mind (I Corinthians 14:2, The Amplified Bible).

To pray in tongues, you need to realize that speaking with an unknown tongue is the voice of your heart. Speaking in a known tongue is the voice of the human mind (unless one of the vocal gifts of the nine gifts of the Spirit is in operation). The Holy Spirit of God will give you utterance, the same as your mind gives you thoughts to speak (Acts 2:4).

To speak in tongues, you must operate with the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 14:14, “For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive…” (The Amplified Bible).

Notice that it was Paul who did the speaking. Ask the Holy Spirit to take charge of your tongue, then yield your tongue to His use. You cannot speak in your own language and tongues at the same time, just as you cannot speak with English and French at the same time. When your voice and tongue begin forming syllables around the expression that your heart desires to release, you will also speak in tongues. It will be your tongue, your breath, your vocal cords and you will be actively forming words. You will supply the sounds, but the Holy Spirit will supply the words—words unknown to you. It may seem awkward to you at first, but continue. Like a child learning to speak, you will grow.

Finally, as you seek the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, you need not wait to get a word from God about it—you already have His Word—nor do you need to wait around for the Spirit. The Spirit of God entered His ministry on the Day of Pentecost and He has been here ever since. He has never left!

Furthermore, you need not be concerned over being deceived and ending up with something that is from the devil. When you ask your heavenly Father for one of His promises—as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit—you can be confident the gift given is from God, not Satan.

Remember, Luke 11:13 says, “…how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” So if you want to receive your baptism in the Holy Spirit, ask Him now.

“Heavenly Father, I am a believer. I am Your child and You are my Father. Jesus is my Lord. I believe with all my heart that Your Word is true.

“Your Word says if I will ask, I will receive the Holy Spirit. So in the Name of Jesus Christ, my Lord, I am asking You to fill me to overflowing with Your precious Holy Spirit. Jesus, baptize me in the Holy Spirit.

“Because of Your Word, I believe that I now receive and I thank You for it. I believe the Holy Spirit is within me and, by faith, I accept it.

“Now, Holy Spirit, rise up within me as I praise God. I fully expect to speak with other tongues, as You give me the utterance.”

Now begin giving sound to the expressions in your heart. Speak and hear the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

Rejoice! You’ve just been baptized in the Holy Spirit! You’ve been endued with power—hallelujah!

Do you agree with Rev. Copeland on this, that being baptized in the Holy Spirit always means speaking in tongues? What about Paul's admonition in I Corinthians 12:30, "Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?"? I would also question the extravagance of their ministry and their lavish lifestyle with Rolls Royces, private jets, mansions, especially when an elder or leader of the church is exemplified by "not a lover of money". Again, no one is saying God doesn't STILL do miracles in people's lives, just that those who claim to have this special "anointing" these days are nothing at all like those who legitimately had those gifts in the first century. Nor do they preach the Gospel of our salvation as their primary concern. For too many it is a money-making scheme where THEY are the ones glorified instead of God. If they truly had these gifts (tongues, healing, prophecy) today, it would be an entirely different ball game. Sorry, I don't accept them or their motives.

[Quix]

Take it up with his Boss.

[Quix]

INDEED.

I thoroughly agree.

And I PRAISE GOD that Kenneth et al walk as much in Holy Spirits gifts, anointing and ministry as they do.

For all his and Gloria’s flaws, that’s at least greatly more than most of the ministers I’ve been familiar with or heard of in the FROZEN CHOSEN congregations do.

[Quix]

People are more or less free to go on

accusing Kenneth of operating in the flesh or worse under a demonic ‘counterfeit anointing’ if they wish.

God knows differently.
You and I know differently.

Time will tell.

We shall see how many gilded buckets of rocks earn awards for their throwers.

[boatbums]

I wonder why the need to post this thread in an OPEN Religion Forum if no one is allowed to post opposing views without the sarcasm, derision, accusations of ignorance and doubt as to ones fidelity to the Word of God? Wasn't this the VERY reason that last thread was closed?

Really, Quix, you post a vanity thread, threaten with your scorn and then prematurely presume everyone who fails to see the Quixicated world view is "unbiblical", "irrational", "thrashers of Holy Spirit's works" and overall incapable of seeing the powerful hand of Almighty God at work in the world to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Why try it all over again if you start out on the SAME exact footing? Wouldn't you be better off posting this to another site where Scriptural views are stated to everyone who believes the same things?

You defend what you call the gift of the Holy Spirit of "speaking in tongues", so, other than the few anecdotes of friends of friends or someone long ago who did demonstrate the legitimate gift - though you weren't there and only heard it second or third hand - have YOU ever exhibited the ability to tell the Gospel to a person who didn't speak your language? When you worked in China, did you ever suddenly gain the ability to speak Chinese to someone who wanted to learn of Jesus Christ? Is the only experience you have with this "gift" the internal, benefiting yourself, edifying yourself kind?

I'm definitely NOT interested in the same game as last time as these are serious questions - just as last time from me. Can you, will you, be able to discuss this subject with other Christians in a respectful and dignified way? Or is it always going to be a matter of you "defending" the Holy Spirit's honor against heretics? If the latter is the case, then you may want to desist in posting these kinds of threads because all it seems to do is bring out the fangs and cause dissension, not to mention the bruised relationships.