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Mormonism and "That's Just His Opinion"
Spotlight Ministries ^ | Vincent McCann

Posted on 03/10/2012 5:31:08 PM PST by delacoert

Often, when Mormons are presented with statements from their leaders that could cause some difficulty for them, many will respond by saying something like "Oh, that's just his opinion. Its not the official view of the Mormon Church." Often, when Mormons talk about official doctrines of the Church they usually mean the Standard Works: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrines and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

Although many Mormons do not view other LDS writings as official Scripture (for example, The Seer or The Journal of Discourses), it should be remembered that many of these writings consist of the words of very prominent leaders in the Mormon Church. As such individuals commanded great respect they were certainly influential over the rank and file. Their statements must have carried some weight. Mormon leaders in prominent positions, like Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Bruce R. McConkie, influenced those who looked to them for leadership. The words of these early LDS leaders did not just go out into a vacuum, they went the hearts and minds of the Mormon people and were incorporated into their beliefs.

It would also seem that many Mormon leaders have tended to view their words as carrying a great deal of weight. For example, regarding the sermons of Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses it is interesting to look at some of Young's words himself as to how he viewed what was contained in the Discourses:

Even though it is fashionable for today's Mormons to say that they will not accept statements which are not officially classed as revelation, or Scripture, I came across the following quote of a BYU professor which I thought was interesting regarding this very issue:

Related to the above observations from the BYU professor, it can be pointed out that there are some doctrines of Mormonism that are simply not found in the official Standard Works. The LDS doctrine of their being a "Mother in Heaven" is one example. Nowhere is this doctrine found in any of the official Standard Works of the Church. However, such a doctrine is vital in the Mormon concept of eternal progression. If God was not married to His wife in Mormonism then He could never have become God in the first place.

Some Mormons will object that unless a statement by an LDS Church leader opens with the statement "Thus saith the Lord", then it can be set aside as the mere opinion of the speaker. However, not everyone would agree with this. In 1980 prominent Mormon leaders gave a speech which contained the following words:

Furthermore, the popular, and widely distributed, LDS Church manual Gospel Principles clearly states that the inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as scripture by Latter-day Saints. (Gospel Principles, p. 55).

Another objection that some members of the Mormon Church may bring against the words of past LDS leaders is that it was all in the past and that the Church has moved on since then. But the problem with this view is that the entire existence of the Mormon Church is based on the historical events that it appeared in in the early 19th century. Also, modern officially endorsed Mormon publications such as the books in the series entitled:Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, contain prolific quotes from early Mormon publications. So past LDS leaders are still influencing modern Mormons even though the quotes that are given are given selectively.

The conclusion of all this is that it is too easy for Mormons to brush aside something uncomfortable that they might hear from a Mormon leader as "just his opinion", but the truth is that the words of these leaders do carry great weight and influence over the rank and file. In addition to this, as the quotations in this brief article demonstrate, there are Mormon leaders who feel that writings and speeches by Mormon leaders are authoritative even though they may not be contained in the Standard Works.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other non-Christian
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon
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Companion article to:

Can Mormons Trust Their Prophets?

posted earlier by colofornian.

1 posted on 03/10/2012 5:31:14 PM PST by delacoert
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To: delacoert

One thing we have learned about mormonism is that they dismiss as “just opinion” of their leaders if it contradicts with what the current leaders are saying. IE The lds god changes his or her mind frequently.
So wouldn’t that make the lds god not a perfect being, I mean really a perfect being would have no reason to change his mind - just saying.
But hey, when you are not eternal and just progressed I guess it’s ok to make mistakes.


2 posted on 03/10/2012 5:42:26 PM PST by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

Tom Marr was in for Levin Friday, and he said we are idiots if we don’t accept Mormanism as being no different than Catholicism. He also said I should shut up and quit resisting the Borg.

He was a disgusting Mitt pimp the whole show, Levin should apologize.


3 posted on 03/10/2012 5:51:44 PM PST by itsahoot (Tag lines are a waste of bandwidth, as are my comments.)
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To: itsahoot

Tom Marr is a fool and does not reach the level of pond scum, if that’s what he really believes.


4 posted on 03/10/2012 5:55:49 PM PST by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

The religion I am most concerned about is Islam, because I once lived in an area surrounded by Muslims and have studied their history going back 13+ centuries.


5 posted on 03/10/2012 5:57:40 PM PST by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: entropy12

Then you really need to learn about mormonism.
Joseph Smith declared himself the next mohammed.


6 posted on 03/10/2012 6:00:10 PM PST by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

You bet I will study Mormons as soon as news breaks out that Mormons are strapping bombs and exploding themselves in crowded civilian areas. Not only I will study them but actively fight against such atrocities. Why do you think I have studied the history of Islam? Because my ancestors have been fighting them for centuries.


7 posted on 03/10/2012 6:06:12 PM PST by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: entropy12

I will say it again, learn about mormonism before you dismiss it.


8 posted on 03/10/2012 6:08:35 PM PST by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

Why should I waste my precious time studying anything which has yet to cause me even a hint of any harm, not seen any evidence of present day atrocities, no be-headings of non-believers, and no one pressuring me to convert to their religion under the threat of my life or be subject to Jizya for rest of my life?


9 posted on 03/10/2012 6:19:17 PM PST by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: svcw

Look at the sign-up date. We will get more of these ‘lying for the lord’ types as the primary goes on. Try to ignore the baiters. It’s a good bet they work for Milt or LDS inc.


10 posted on 03/10/2012 6:26:59 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: entropy12

““Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Jesus Christ


11 posted on 03/10/2012 6:38:51 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I wouldnÂ’t vote for Romney for dog catcher if he was in a three way race against Lenin and Marx!)
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To: delacoert

No different than Catholics confronted with the socialist claptrap spewing from bishops and Vatican officials: “They don’t speak for the Church” and “They’re poorly catechized”.


12 posted on 03/10/2012 6:42:57 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: entropy12; svcw; delacoert
Why should I waste my precious time studying anything which has yet to cause me even a hint of any harm

(If all Christian church bodies took this 'tude, we'd call all the missionaries home from the relatively "non-hostile" areas & only send them to hostile areas)

I guess you can call it the "new dualism"...where spiritual warfare is nary a thought...and only harm & potential harm to the body is to be concerned about...

Me? I try to take our cultural cue from a certain "Lord" named Jesus Christ...I mean, who are we to follow when it comes to setting cultural priorities? Jesus and the apostle Paul? or entropic characters?

Here's Jesus:

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)

So does Jesus say, "fear the bomber-terrorists?" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear the 'atrocity-mongers?'" (No)
Does Jesus say "fear the be-headers?" (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk. Of course, this includes Muslims as well...thankfully...not everybody has ADD or ADHD in this generation...like the Silent Generation which fought WWII, some can multi-task on multiple frontlines!

As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

Tell me something, Entropy: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

13 posted on 03/10/2012 6:45:28 PM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I do not agree. Whoever threatens my body or any of my family and relatives, I will react with all my might and kill them first. My soul can not be destroyed if I keep my body healthy and keep my spirits high with help from my religious beliefs. My religion is 4500 years old and has done excellent job in preserving my soul and sanity. No other religion can succeed in destroying my soul.


14 posted on 03/10/2012 6:48:03 PM PST by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: Colofornian

“Tell me something, Entropy: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it’s rather important? So what? We’re just to conclude, “Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament — what does he know about cultural priorities?”

I assume you are talking about the Christian religion. Outside of my own religion, I hold Christianity in the highest esteem. I have great admiration for devout Christians.


15 posted on 03/10/2012 6:52:17 PM PST by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: delacoert

The refrain I continue to hear is “There is a historical LDS and there is a Doctrinal LDS”.

Doesn’t really help their case when I think of all those poor horses that died, on a hill in Cumrah under the weight of steel armor and weaponry some 2,000 years ago.

And those poor Laminites.


16 posted on 03/10/2012 6:56:22 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: delacoert

Convenient doublespeak ain’t it?


17 posted on 03/10/2012 6:56:29 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
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To: delacoert
the absence of a formal creed means that each generation must produce a new set of gospel expositors to restate and reinterpret the doctrines of Mormonism."

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it does not need "reinterpretation" nor to be added to or detracted from. The Gospel (Good News) of Jesus is forever.

18 posted on 03/10/2012 6:58:07 PM PST by Graybeard58 (Eccl 10 v. 19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things.)
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To: itsahoot

And the second he said it I turned the channel.

He was already getting on my nerves pretending to be the language police.


19 posted on 03/10/2012 6:58:15 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: MHGinTN

Very good advice.


20 posted on 03/10/2012 6:58:47 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
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To: entropy12
Then perhaps you can see why our priorities fall the way they do, then.

One of the other things we look at would be, "Which religions are counterfeiting ours?"

Muslims don't pretend to be Christians; Mormons, on the other hand, covet the Christian brand.

Just as our govt gives high priorities to both security threats and which entities are counterfeiting our currency...so we can address both: Sources of physical harm and the spiritual counterfeiters.

21 posted on 03/10/2012 6:59:53 PM PST by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: svcw

Yeah, read up on the LeBarons (sp). The more you read about this cult, the more they resemble muzzys


22 posted on 03/10/2012 7:03:24 PM PST by Figment
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To: entropy12

A+


23 posted on 03/10/2012 7:08:15 PM PST by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: entropy12

Read the Banner of Heaven. It speaks about present day killing of ‘infidels’ in the Mormon world.


24 posted on 03/10/2012 8:55:08 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: entropy12; svcw; aMorePerfectUnion; Elsie

Before you defend Mormons too much, you may want to do some research into the fact that they continuously align themselves with Muslims, even in situations areas where Christian or Jewish charities have a better system and facilities.

Also, BYU is one of the top rated schools for Muslims to attend in the US.

Think about THAT. If God forbid, Romney gets POTUS, he will further Islam in America rather than stymie it. Since Islam is your only concern which frankly is stupid, IMO.


25 posted on 03/10/2012 9:23:56 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: svcw
One thing we have learned about mormonism is that they dismiss as “just opinion” of their leaders if it contradicts with what the current leaders are saying.

Oh YEAH???

Got any FACTS to back this up???



Uh... I guess there ARE!! #3




In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

26 posted on 03/11/2012 5:13:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
The religion I am most concerned about is Islam,

Why?

Because they'll KILL ya?

Worry instead about the ETERNAL destiny of a person's SOUL!

MORMONism is a lying heresy that has a FALSE 'salvation' delivered by a FALSE 'christ' thru an organization founded upon the LIES that CHRISTIANITY is WORTHLESS!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

27 posted on 03/11/2012 5:17:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
You bet I will study Mormons as soon as news breaks out that Mormons are strapping bombs and exploding themselves in crowded civilian areas.


“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




28 posted on 03/11/2012 5:18:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
...not seen any evidence of present day atrocities...

AH...

We have someone who DOES know a little bit about MORMONism and it's history!

29 posted on 03/11/2012 5:19:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MHGinTN
Try to ignore the baiters.

Ooooh!

Not me!!

I have TONS of factual data, straight from AUTHENTIC mormon sources that need to be seen.

If they manage to come up with a new spin on how 'not to worry about MORMONism because', I'm sure the FI crew has just the data to nullify it.


"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal..."

30 posted on 03/11/2012 5:23:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
No other religion can succeed in destroying my soul.

Well that's nice.

Can any other religion destroy someone ELSE's soul?

31 posted on 03/11/2012 5:25:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
Whoever threatens my body or any of my family and relatives, I will react with all my might and kill them first.

Then you'd best get your family and relatives 'saved' (whatever that means in YOUR 4500 y.o. religion) before someone DOES kill them!

I, personally, have MUCH greater odds of dying from a product of DETROIT than a product of MECCA.

32 posted on 03/11/2012 5:28:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
Outside of my own religion, I hold Christianity in the highest esteem. I have great admiration for devout Christians.

Bah!

Who cares?

What do you think of CHRIST?

33 posted on 03/11/2012 5:29:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Vendome
The refrain I continue to hear is “There is a historical LDS and there is a Doctrinal LDS”.

There is a MILKY MormonISM and there is a MEATY MormonISM.

34 posted on 03/11/2012 5:30:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12

no be-headings of non-believers, and no one pressuring me to convert to their religion under the threat of my life or be subject to Jizya for rest of my life?
___________________________________________________

The evidence is out there...

Mormons have beheaded people..

Mormons have forced people to convert

Mormons have forced tribute from non-Mormons..

In 1838 Joey Smith said “Joseph Smith or the Sword”


35 posted on 03/11/2012 5:31:27 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Vendome
There is a MILKY MormonISM and there is a MEATY MormonISM.

Why yes, Ma'am; we will let you nurse from the SLC teat!

If you want MEAT; wait for the ANTIs to appear and bash poor widdle us!"



36 posted on 03/11/2012 5:33:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: itsahoot

Tom marr) needs to talk with Bill (maher)


37 posted on 03/11/2012 5:35:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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And the THX 1138 march continues.


38 posted on 03/11/2012 7:27:44 AM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: svcw

Peepstone profit placemarker


39 posted on 03/11/2012 7:43:02 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (If Jesus returned today the mormon church would try to sell him a condo in their billion-dollar mall)
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To: Tennessee Nana

In 1838 Christian Americans were practicing slavery. So what?
The same Christians then fought against slavery and abolished it. What Mormons did in 1838 does not resemble to me what is happening in 2012. May be you have links to some PRESENT day Mormon leaders saying “Joseph Smith or the Sword”. I would be interested in learning who is saying that in 2012.


40 posted on 03/11/2012 9:38:47 AM PDT by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: Elsie

Islam is doing that as we speak. Christians are being persecuted in some Islamic countries, their churches are being burned.


41 posted on 03/11/2012 9:40:33 AM PDT by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: MHGinTN

You are incorrect. I am neither LDS neither I work for Romney. If you bother to follow my previous posts, you will learn that my preference is for Newt.


42 posted on 03/11/2012 9:43:39 AM PDT by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: Elsie

My opinion of Christ is that he was one of the kindest, purest holy man to walk this earth. He preached love and tolerance of others. A great man indeed.


43 posted on 03/11/2012 9:46:43 AM PDT by entropy12 (Republicans do not hate, that is a monopoly of democrats.)
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To: entropy12

Doncha know Mormons and Muslims are in cahoots, especially since they both start with the letter M. Coincidence? I think not.

Plus, if Romney becomes President there is a secret plan to force the entire Executive Branch to convert to Mormonism and wear Magic Underwear? And Romney will be riding a White Horse, forcing all black people to not be Mormons because he wants it to be pre-1978 all over again?

Incoming Spam soon !!


44 posted on 03/11/2012 9:49:19 AM PDT by magritte (Gladys Knight: Mormon Siren?)
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To: entropy12

some PRESENT day Mormon leaders saying “Joseph Smith or the Sword”.

I would be interested in learning who is saying that in 2012.
_______________________________________

Every time they “go through the temple”

Every time they sing “praise to the man”

Every time they claim the book of mormon is true

Every time they dead dunk my Christian ancestors

Every time they send out their teenage salesmen to knock on my door

Every time Mormon bishop and high priest Willard Mitt Romney says “I believe in the father of my fathers”

etc


45 posted on 03/11/2012 9:53:05 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: entropy12

What Mormons did in 1838 does not resemble to me what is happening in 2012.
___________________________________________

about 1838 Joey Smith started his bank scam and cheated many people out of their life savings..

He called it the Kirtland Safety Society Bank and he conned his followers into investing in a fraud claiming that it was the will of the mormon gods...

Today Mormons are still cheating other Mormons of millions of dollars...

Utah has the most scams of any state in the country..

BTW Joey Smith was charged and fined $1000 a lot of money in 1838

he never paid it but just ran off with the booty..

A big reason he moved from Ohio...


46 posted on 03/11/2012 10:03:08 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: entropy12
Can any other religion destroy someone ELSE's soul?

Islam is doing that as we speak. Christians are being persecuted in some Islamic countries, their churches are being burned.

Uh; your answer does NOT fit the question.

47 posted on 03/11/2012 10:37:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
He preached love and tolerance of others.

 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

48 posted on 03/11/2012 10:38:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
He preached love and tolerance of others.

Was He the Son of GOD?

49 posted on 03/11/2012 10:39:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: entropy12
My opinion of Christ is that he was one of the kindest, purest holy man to walk this earth.

OK...

John 3:17-18

 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

50 posted on 03/11/2012 10:41:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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