Posted on 03/11/2012 4:27:55 PM PDT by Heart-Rest
—is that anything like “for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory....added onto the Lord’s Prayer????—
Does it jibe with the rest of scripture?
Within the limitations of reasonable fairness, this should not be a criterion for rejecting the Catholic Church. Were it to become so pronounced one would have to apply the standard of "by their fruits you shall know them", then one would be in a position to reject a denomination for such extensive violation.
A person would be entirely justified in rejecting a particular local church if such a violator were still pastoring in that local church.
I guess I’m confused. Which scriptures are you saying are man-made and which are from God? You quote them but then put the Psalms ahead of Matthew. Who wrote the Psalms? Who wrote Deuteronomy? Are you saying that God sat down and penned some scriptures, which other books were penned by man? If so, how do you determine which is which?
Thanks a lot for those links and the information. (I’m going to read them later when I get some time.)
I am saying that the Church has very definable boundaries and structure and that it is not some loose, self defined confederation of believers whose Venn diagrams overlap. There is one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Gospels tell us exactly how and why Jesus established that His Church would be lead by a Pope as chosen His form of Church governance and that the first Pope was Peter.
Throughout the Old Testament God had always chosen a single man to guide His Church and He has guided and protected that person through public and private Revelation. This was true of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Solomon, David and the many judges, kings and prophets that followed. It would be true of His Church too.
In His revelation Jesus specifically discussed the three possible forms of Church governance; the Democratic form, the Oligarchical form, and the Theocratic form before revealing His choice.
In this dialog Jesus asks His Disciples; "Who do the people say that I am?" (Matt 16:16). This was the Democratic option. He got answers varying from Elijah, to John the Baptist, to "One of the Prophets", but no clear, unambiguous or truthful answer. He then asked His Apostles; "Who do you say that I am?". This was the oligarchical form. None responded. These two forms were unambiguously rejected.
Then Peter stepped forward and without consulting the others said; "You are the Christ, the son of the living God.". In response to this Jesus revealed the basis and governance of His Church when He said:
“Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:17-19)
You can disagree all you want: I just want to ask you one question: Have been born again (by the Holy Spirit)? By faith have you recieved Jesus payment so that He took the punishment??
How about if I reject the Catholic church because I have personally suffered at the hands of Catholics who were abusive. Plus, I suffered because other Catholic knew of the abuse and did nothing. Yet another blind eye turned to abuse within the Catholic church.
That is a legitimate question that warrants a legitimate answer. Unfortunately, to be answered properly, it is not a simple yes / no answer.
I don't believe that the translation of the term gennatha anothen means, used in John 3:3 and John 3:7, means "Born Again" as most protestants do, but instead it is translated "Born From Above". As a Catholic I believe that I meet this criteria because I have been baptized in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Also, as a Catholic, I do not accept OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or Irresistible Grace. For us, our human nature means that have a life long battle against sin and concupiscence, and we therefore have a lifelong process of conversion. This means that my Salvation is in play up until the moment of my death.
Wow! Your salvation is in play up until the moment of death? Jesus is very weak to you. I also do not believe in “Once saved always saved”, but I do know that my salvation was completed on the Cross, and only my complete turning away from Him would separate me from Him.
There’s nothing I can do to earn salvation. It’s been done for me. I do not do good works so that God will love me more. I serve God out of my complete gratitude to Him and my desire that others know the love of God.
It is not Jesus that is weak, it is me and all of my human brothers and sisters.
How do yo reconcile the facts that Jesus desires everyone be saved and calls all to Salvation yet not all are saved? Is this a weakness in Jesus or in man?
The bible itself speaks of other records written by prophets and apostles among the tribe of Judah, yet they aren’t in the bible now. Where did they go?
The tribe of Judah is only one of 12 chosen tribes. Yes, I believe the Book of Mormon to be the record of another tribe, the tribe of Joseph. I don’t limit God’s dealing with his peoples.
In the mouth of two or 3 witnesses shall EVERY word be established. - 2 Corinthians 13:1
So you don’t know if you’re saved?
I agree with your sentiment. This is the time we must all stick together.
If you are asking if I have accepted Jesus as my personal savior, the answer is yes. If you are asking if I can guarantee that I will not screw it up, the answer is no.
Well do you KNOW that when you die, Jesus that you will go to heaven?
I go back to Eph 2: 8-9; “For by grace you have been saved by faith, it is a gift of God, and not of yourself that no man may boast”
Once we were sinful men, and then one day when we recieve Jesus sacrifice God transforms us, has this happened to you?
I have been alive long enough to have seen many supposedly saved persons backslide into sin to know Salvation is a life long process. I have see some right their course and other not, at least from outward appearances. I never claim to know the mind of God.
I intend to strive in hope as St. Paul taught us in 1 Timothy 4:10 and to persevere as he taught us in 1 Timothy 4:16.
Yes, but that’s not what my question was. Do You know that when you die you will go to heaven?
I know the conditions that will enable me to go, but I do not yet an assurance of achieving it. I also know that I have been given free will with which I can reject salvation. I know this is antithetical to Protestant thought, but I am not here to debate the issue, only to clarify Catholic teaching such that it can be honestly discussed.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21
Be careful with our enlightened brethren. They might enquire as to where that is found in the Bible. Of course, they also ignore the founding of the Church and the role which Jesus instructed it to perform as stated in the Bible, so they appear to be doing much as Nancy Pelosi and Chuckles Schumer and Barack Obama do when they attack Rush for being right, and greedily take money from their execrable own without applying the same scrutiny to their words.
Who was Jude? What relation did the writer of II Peter in the mid second century have with the Apostles? Who was Matthew? Are you sure the writers of John were an Apostle or related? Who wrote Hebrews?
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