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It is my sincere and humble prayer that we all turn to God in prayer to ask him to show us the real, honest Truth about all of these questions, and any other questions and issues that may come up between us.     (And all of us should always remember that, when conversing with God in prayer, it is a very good idea to really just stick to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, as I'm sure that none of us can possibly ever fool "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" about anything.)

And my further prayer is that we ALL may be ONE (just as Jesus prayed) within the one and only Church HE built -- about 1500 years before Martin Luther and John Calvin came along -- and that we may continue to grow steadily in enlightenment as provided by the "Light of the World", and progress to an ever greater level of understanding and love (as willed by God) and become saints, and make it into heaven!

May God bless all of us.

1 posted on 03/11/2012 4:28:01 PM PDT by Heart-Rest
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To: Heart-Rest; Alamo-Girl
Issue 2 - Rejecting the Catholic Church because of the Priestly scandals.

Within the limitations of reasonable fairness, this should not be a criterion for rejecting the Catholic Church. Were it to become so pronounced one would have to apply the standard of "by their fruits you shall know them", then one would be in a position to reject a denomination for such extensive violation.

A person would be entirely justified in rejecting a particular local church if such a violator were still pastoring in that local church.

322 posted on 03/12/2012 1:07:11 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Heart-Rest
Issue 1 - Bible only? Where in the Bible does it specifically say that someone was instructed or inspired by God to write the "Gospel of Matthew"? (Please give me the actual Bible book, chapter, and verse where it explicitly says that.)

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

But you shouldn't take my word for it. The church fathers separated what was inspired from what was not. They called it the Bible. Now, many centuries later they're saying, "Hey, there's more..."

Issue 2 - Rejecting the Catholic Church because of the Priestly scandals.

Has nothing to do whether the Church of Rome is doctrinally correct.

Issue 3 - The Biblical Basis for the Catholic teaching concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. Many Scriptural passages affirm the Catholic teaching about the Holy Eucharist, including "John 6", "1 Corinthians 11", and many others. To get a good overview for the Scriptural basis for this teaching about the Eucharist of the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church), I would recommend a good small book

Meaningless. Asking me to get a "good overview for the Scriptural basis" by directing me to Catholic material is like me asking you to read Reformed material. (BTW-I frequently read Catholic material with an open mind. I doubt if many Catholics read Reformed material.)

Issue 4 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. No, it does not. It is a complete misperception and misunderstanding. When you see people kneeling before a statue

Exo 20:4-5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

However Catholics like to try to justify themselves on this point, they are in clear violation of one of the top ten of God's commandments.

Issue 5 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of statues, icons, and paintings.

Please explain the term venerating. It's not any different than worshipping.

Issue 6 - The Catholic Church advocates and employs meaningless repetitious prayers. No, it does not. Catholics pray both

Do you mean, "Hail Mary, full of grace...."?

Issue 7 - The Catholic Church does not place any or much emphasis at all on the Bible. While we could all certainly benefit from a lot more time spent with the written Word of God, I think it is pretty ludicrous to claim that Catholics ignore the Bible.

And how many bible studies do they allow? How many commentaries do they have? You'll find that there aren't a whole lot.

Issue 8 - Instead of building large, beautiful, ornate Cathedrals and Churches, Catholics should use that money for the poor.

Nothing wrong with having a nice building. Something is wrong when you have beautiful mable bathrooms with gold fixtures.

Issue 9 - Do Catholics teach and believe that they can save themselves, or that salvation comes from God alone? The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes from God alone. ... However,

Well, you started out well.

Issue 10 - The Biblical meaning of "Church", as used in Matthew 16:18, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc. Some people who have disagreed with the Catholic Church in the past have insisted that the Greek term looking roughly like "ekklesia" has been repeatedly mistranslated, and in "the Bible according to them",

Never heard this. However, are you saying the the ONLY church is the Catholic Church and you can be saved ONLY through the Catholic Church?

347 posted on 03/12/2012 5:54:00 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Heart-Rest; Alamo-Girl
Issue #3 - The Biblical Basis for the Catholic teaching concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist.

Arguing a biblical basis for the real presence is no legitimate reason for rejecting the Roman Catholic Church. In reality, there is little difference between trans-substantiation, spiritual presence, and con-substantiation.

Paul clearly says, in 1 Co 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

359 posted on 03/12/2012 7:32:49 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Heart-Rest; Alamo-Girl
Issue #4 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary

To the extent that the Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary, that would be a valid reason for rejecting the Catholic Church or a group of Catholics who would be teaching Mariology wrongly.

I am convinced that many Catholics evidence little understanding of the distinction between reverence and worship. I'm also convinced that the dividing line between reverence and worship is a very thin line when publicly practiced.

Therefore, in my opinion, Catholicism has a huge responsibility to broadly explain the distinction between reverence and worship, and they also have a responsibility to go to great lengths in any public setting not to blur any distinction between reverence and worship.

Any group worshipping anyone but the Triune God is wrong, and that should be rejected.

There is only one I AM.

362 posted on 03/12/2012 7:45:36 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Heart-Rest
Issue #5 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of statues, icons, and paintings

Refer to my comments on worship of Mary. The same applies to statues, icons, and paintings...relics...any created thing.

363 posted on 03/12/2012 7:47:47 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Pray Continued Victory for our Troops Still in Afghan!)
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To: Heart-Rest
You left out two very important issues:

1)The near dogmatic acceptance of evolution in the Catholic Church and concomitant relegation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis to "mythology" (often attributed to the Babylonians and Canaanites).

2)The omnipresence of "higher criticism" in the Catholic Church.

I note that no Catholic apologists ever address these two issues. It's always the exact same things (Mary, statues, real presence), but never the above two supremely important points. I wonder why?

So . . . now that you're Catholic you believe in evolution . . . right?

386 posted on 03/13/2012 7:56:57 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Heart-Rest; netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...
On behalf of the Catholic Ping List, I wish to extend a most sincere ...

Welcome Home!

I would also like to congratulate you on a exhaustive apologetics posted in support of the Catholic Church. May our Lord continue to guide you on your chosen path. May He bless you and your family.

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


440 posted on 03/13/2012 1:38:13 PM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: Heart-Rest

well written


591 posted on 03/18/2012 10:55:55 PM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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