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Why is the perpetual virginity of Mary so important to Catholics? [Ecumenical Vanity]
Reaganaut | 3/17/12 | Reaganaut

Posted on 03/17/2012 2:30:01 PM PDT by reaganaut

I understand the history of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary (ἀειπαρθένος). I know it was taught as early as the 4th century, and I understand the development of "Spritual Marriages" in the Early Middle ages. That isn't what I am asking.

I have a good grasp of the history, doctrine and Biblical texts. I have done a lot of research on the topic. I grew up in Catholic school and Matthew 1:25 always got me in trouble during Catechism class.

Douay-Rheims Bible

And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:25).

"Know" is a very common idiom for sex in Judaism of the period of writing. Again, I don't want to debate the text or history.

Protestants have no issue with Joseph and Mary having a normal marriage and having sexual relations AFTER the birth of Jesus (not before for obvious reasons) and having other children.

What I am curious about is the WHY the doctrine is important to MODERN Catholics (Medieval Catholics I get). Why does matter if Mary was ever-virgin (after the birth of Christ) or not?


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: reaganaut

First, I don’t want to take the time starting an argument or getting bogged down in one in the religion forum.

So, I’ll just note that Catholics obviously don’t interpret Matthew 1:25 as necessarily meaning that Mary knew Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Someone else with the time or the will to do so could give a better explanation if they wish.

Also, are you asking why Catholics hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary or why the perpetual virginity of Mary is important to Catholics? If it’s the latter, then Matthew 1:25 and whether the doctrine is true or not is not really relevant to the question. But since you mentioned it, I’m guessing that you would like some explanation as to why Catholics believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, not just why it is important to Catholics.


21 posted on 03/17/2012 3:04:07 PM PDT by WPaCon
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To: reaganaut

>>However that doesn’t answer the question as to why she MUST have remained a Virgin AFTER the birth of Christ.<<

Again, purity. The Virgin Birth is one of last times we see God’s hand directly. It is critical He be seen in the event, which included her staying a virgin through and, more importantly, after.

And that about exhausts what I can assemble from my years as a Catholic way back when...


22 posted on 03/17/2012 3:05:12 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: mgist
her name was "the Immaculate Conception"

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church maintaining that Mary was kept free of original sin from her moment of conception and is not to be confused with the virginity of Mary or the virgin birth of Jesus.

23 posted on 03/17/2012 3:06:10 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Venturer

Totally agree with you! Reality is that we live in a world hostile to Christianity, and we do have to learn how to defend ourselved. Even from other Christians, who like St. Paul, believed persecuting Christians was a noble cause. Acts 9:4


24 posted on 03/17/2012 3:06:30 PM PDT by mgist
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To: vladimir998

First, I know there is often confusion between the Virgin Birth and Perpetual Virginity of Mary and I was seeing some confusion, hence my clarification.

The Bible never says she chose to remain a virgin or that they did not have a conjugal marriage. My vocab choice was fine.

However, thank you for your statement and I see perhaps a glimmer of why even though not directly addressed.


25 posted on 03/17/2012 3:06:37 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: vladimir998

They never had a conjugal marriage, nor was she ever planning on one either.

- - - - -
Interesting statement. Could you source that please? I am sincerely interested.


26 posted on 03/17/2012 3:07:44 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Venturer

Why does anyone who doesn’t believe it—Care.

- - - - -
Because I am trying to understand why it is such a hot button.

I posted this as Ecumenical because I wasn’t starting a fight. I want to understand why it is important.


27 posted on 03/17/2012 3:09:27 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

You wrote:

“The Bible never says she chose to remain a virgin or that they did not have a conjugal marriage.”

So say you. Ask yourself why Mary went unpunished for putting a question to Gabriel when Zachariah was struck mute.

“My vocab choice was fine.”

Not for a Christian.


28 posted on 03/17/2012 3:09:58 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: freedumb2003

Jesus is God. Nothing can make Him “impure”.


29 posted on 03/17/2012 3:13:06 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Lazamataz for president!! NO MORE RINOS!!)
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To: WPaCon

But since you mentioned it, I’m guessing that you would like some explanation as to why Catholics believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, not just why it is important to Catholics.

- - - - —
I understand the text, interpretation, etc. But I don’t get why there is hostility to the idea that she wasn’t.

This is an Ecumenical thread specifically because I DID NOT want to start a fight. In my work, I am constantly asking “why?” and this was one area where I didn’t understand the why.


30 posted on 03/17/2012 3:13:13 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
Here's just an example of the types of interpretations of Matthew 1:25 that I was referring to and I am sure that you have seen before.

http://www.askacatholic.com/_webpostings/answers/2000_08AUG/2000AugUsageOfUntil.cfm

31 posted on 03/17/2012 3:13:24 PM PDT by WPaCon
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To: reaganaut

If Joseph and Mary never had sexual intercourse, then their marriage was never consummated. Therefore, the marriage was invalid. On that basis, Joseph would not be Jesus’ stepfather and was just a friend.


32 posted on 03/17/2012 3:14:11 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class!)
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To: reaganaut

My thought has always been that Middle Eastern cultures put a great emphasis on virginity (look at how nowadays they actually have operations to “recreate” it, as if a physical hymen actually is that important).

To the Biblical Christian this is not important in the least. The important point for us is that Jesus was born of God, who is Spirit. A spirit does not take a woman’s virginity, but He was born of the Holy Spirit who “overshadowed” Mary. Thus Jesus is divine. Other than that, Mary remaining “perpetually” virgin has always smacked of the thought that sex is unclean and unholy, whether in or out of marriage.

I know our Catholic brethren disagree with this. It seems very obvious to me, and is one of the reasons I am not Catholic.

Mormons believe God impregnated Mary as a physical being. I obviously have great issues with this.

I hate to “hit and run” but I won’t be around for the flames for awhile, I’ll check in later for the fires!

I’ve always believed small philosophical ideas have great impact on cultures. IMHO, this is one of those “small, huge, ideas”.


33 posted on 03/17/2012 3:14:11 PM PDT by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: freedumb2003

That theory implies an infinite regression i.e. Mary could not be “pure” without Mary’s mother being “pure”.

I believe Mary gave birth to Jesus as a virgin because that arrangement fulfilled prophecy.


34 posted on 03/17/2012 3:14:39 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: freedumb2003

It is critical He be seen in the event, which included her staying a virgin through and, more importantly, after.

- - - -
Thank you for your honest response and that does make quite a bit of sense, even if I don’t see Mary remaining a virgin her whole life detracting from her purity, I can see where you are going with this.

Thanks again. That helps alot


35 posted on 03/17/2012 3:15:15 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
It strikes me as a case of a lot of scholars pondering the nature of God requiring perfection in human form and just how that might be possible, extending that to Mary, and over centuries of layer upon layer of elaboration, creating doctrine of this speculation despite there being no presence of such claims in scripture.

The problem with this perfecting of Mary, the ever-virgin, the sinless, the bodily assumed, outside of the lack of scriptural validation, is that a perfect, sinless Mary would have had the same, physical issues as far as the inherited sin nature, as Jesus would have had, if all the learned and elaborate speculations and intellectualizations regarding His birth were actually the case.

Accepting that He was born of a virgin and that virgin was Mary, who was regarded as special and unique among women and therefore capable of bearing the Christ Child is as far as I'll go.

36 posted on 03/17/2012 3:15:36 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Former Fetus
The bible refers to Mary as the Virgin Luke 1:26. The concept of ever Virgin was written about ever since:

Great teachers of the Church from at least the fourth century spoke of Mary as having remained a virgin throughout her life:

Athanasius (Alexandria, 293 - 373)

Epiphanius (Palestine, 315? - 403)

Jerome (Stridon, present day Slovenia, 345? - 419)

Augustine (Numidia, now Algeria, 354 - 430)

Cyril (Alexandria, 376 - 444)

Martin Luther(lutheran church) was one of the biggest defenders of this concept.

37 posted on 03/17/2012 3:16:21 PM PDT by mgist
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: mgist; Venturer

Ummm...I’m a devout Christian who is not in any way hostile to Catholicism. I’m just trying to understand something that is foreign to me.

Not sure where Venturer got the idea I was hostile.


39 posted on 03/17/2012 3:18:46 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
This is an Ecumenical thread specifically because I DID NOT want to start a fight.

That's fine. I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to start a fight if that's what you think I was doing.

40 posted on 03/17/2012 3:19:02 PM PDT by WPaCon
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