Posted on 03/17/2012 6:19:50 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
John 3:13 explains what Christ was telling and yet had the expectation that Nicodemus should already know.
Do you think/believe there is a 'soul/spirit' manufacturing plant in heaven, that every time an egg gets fertilized a new soul/spirit is created?
Luke the doctor lays out plain and simple when life in this flesh body begins, at conception. That is when the soul/spirit is placed in the womb. There is NO date given when all souls/spirit intellect were created, but, there are numerous places within the Scripture that instructs the reader of the whole Scripture that the souls/spirit intellect exist and existed prior to this flesh age.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 Wherein Jeremiah is told (5)"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
To have it declared from the Heavenly Father that one is known 'before' literally means an existence, not some abstract notion or idea. We are not told when Jeremiah's soul/spirit was created but it most certainly existed long enough before he was in utero for to have been known.
Two different places describe Jacob and Esau's pre-birth condition. Malachi 1:2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Exau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Think for one second that Christ was not aware of Jacob and Esau????
The Paul brings forth this declaration of the pre-flesh existence of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9:11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, (Rebecca) "The elder shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
Yet Esau passed the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God by being born of woman.
That word 'born' = begotten, is the key verb attached to the wrongly translated word again which correctly translated is 'from above'. AND just as Christ was sent from above and born = begotten at conception carried in the water for 9 months so have been the overwhelming majority of the rest of us. That is until modern medical equipment and procedures could deliver and maintain the flesh until the infant could survive on their own.
The point Christ made still remains, only those born = begotten though this flesh age will be allowed to 'see' the kingdom of God.
There is no dispute with Paul, as Paul also penned Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us (election) in Him *BEFORE* the foundation (casting down/overthrow) of the world (age), that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
I am NOT ignoring the rest of the 'whole' Scripture, but for sake of time and space now stopped typing...
This 'flesh' age has a time clock on it, and once that last soul/spirit that is willing to take this flesh journey, to 'see' the kingdom of God, this flesh age ends. Nowhere does Christ say those that take this flesh journey enter the Kingdom of God, just that those that willingly take this flesh journey pass the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God.
I did not write what Christ said, or what Paul wrote, but, I am NOT going to put blinders on and ignore the whole story.
Be easier to carry on the conversation if you would believe what the bible actually says instead of what you want it to say...We have a body, a soul, and a spirit... All people are born with a body, a soul, and a spirit...Christians however must be born again from above with the Spirit of God...Pretty simple, and true...Why do you have this fixation with the word 'again'???
These are the WORDS of Christ...... John 3:1 (set the stage) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, (in secret) and said unto Him, "Rabbi, we know that Thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that Thou doest, except God be with him."
Now the stage is set with a man in a position of power with the religious beliefs of the Pharisees. Secretly seeking a one on one conversation with Christ. To ignore who Nicodemus was, and what 'religion' he believed misses the whole point that Christ then taught.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above (I refuse to type the wrong word) he cannot see the kingdom of God."
What Christ told Nicodemus was against the belief of the Pharisees, and has not one thing to do with a new doctrine, as demonstrated by verse 10 and 13 in particular.
All souls/spirits regardless of their religious beliefs come from the MAKER and they return to the MAKER once their flesh bodies die. That is Written, Solomon penned it in Ecclesiastes 12, as the book of Ecclesiastes is about the two bodies, the flesh and the spirit. IT was not a new doctrine that Christ taught Nicodemus.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Surely Solomon knew about the existence of man's flesh and his spirit...That however is not the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus...
While Nicodemus clearly understands the makeup of the human, Nick was completely clueless about the the Spirit of God indwelling the believer in the New birth...
Nicodemus was acutely aware of his first birth but was shocked to hear and learn that he must also be born from above without the aid of his mother...Nicodemus had to become born 'again'...The first time from his mother in the flesh, and the second time with the indwelling of the Holy spirit which was not given to Nicodemus or anyone at their first, natural birth...
Obviously Solomon understood there are two different separate bodies, but Nicodemus did not know or understand. We can know this by what Christ asked him in verse 10, the instructed him (Nicodemus) in verses 11 and 12. The complete point up to now for us all is given in verse 13.
Surely Solomon knew about the existence of man's flesh and his spirit...That however is not the conversation Jesus is having with Nicodemus... While Nicodemus clearly understands the makeup of the human, Nick was completely clueless about the the Spirit of God indwelling the believer in the New birth... Nicodemus was acutely aware of his first birth but was shocked to hear and learn that he must also be born from above without the aid of his mother...Nicodemus had to become born 'again'...The first time from his mother in the flesh, and the second time with the indwelling of the Holy spirit which was not given to Nicodemus or anyone at their first, natural birth...
Nicodemus was a Pharisee, but knew by what he secretly said to Christ, there was something different about Christ. We know that by what Nicodemus says to Christ in secret.
Christ did not speak about the Holy Spirit to Nicodemus as that bit of instruction did not come until much later, also described as The Comforter that would be after Christ return back to Heaven.
What Christ was telling Nicodemus was what was required of any and all to 'see' the kingdom of God. Christ did not say anything about anyone receiving the Holy Spirit as that was not the subject. What Christ said was required to 'see' the kingdom of God was to be born of woman. AND as we find in other places some sons of God refused to be born of woman, and instead left their estate and came directly here and set up housekeeping with the daughters of Adam.
It might help if a search was done on the 'Greek' word translated 'again' in John 3:3, to learn the other places the original Greek word was used and how it was translated. As John 3 is not about the Holy Spirit or The Comforter which was sent after the Ascension of Christ.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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You are correct in believing that you must be fully a man person to be saved. The giants were the progeny of both angel and man and there is, according to Old Testament scripture, no resurrection for them. Christ Jesus came to die in the place of people who are fully man, not part angel. It is possible that when Christ says that that you must be born of both water and spirit that the water is a reference to being born of a human mother the first time, but in order to enter the kingdom of God you must also be born of the Spirit.
There is no reason at all to think that Jesus nor Nicodemus were concerned, at this time, with the ancient ones who were not going to be resurrected. Why would they be, at this time, having a vital conversation about those ancients, long gone, that were not saved? Nicodemus clearly did not understand the first thing about what Jesus' true mission was or that he would be required to be born a second time of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus very clearly was preparing Nicodemus for the salvation that was to come by His being lifted up on the cross and dying for all mankind. His whole conversation with Nicodemus was clearly laying out the conditions for being born from above, otherwise known as being born of the Spirit of God.
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Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:13 sums up the lesson given to Nicodemus "And *no* man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of Man Which is in heaven.
There is no reason at all to think that Jesus nor Nicodemus were concerned, at this time, with the ancient ones who were not going to be resurrected. Why would they be, at this time, having a vital conversation about those ancients, long gone, that were not saved? Nicodemus clearly did not understand the first thing about what Jesus' true mission was or that he would be required to be born a second time of the Spirit in order to enter into the kingdom of God.
When Christ was asked by His disciples Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 ..... (quoting now Matthew 24) verse 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple:
and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us,
when shall these thing be
and what shall be the sign of Thy coming,
and of the end of the world?"
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ(ian);' and shall deceive many.
Then Christ lists events that need be but for sake of time and space skip to verse 37 to see why what Nicodemus was told was and is relevant... verse 37 of Matthew 24 "But as the days of Noe (Noah... Genesis 6) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe (Noah) entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes 12 that the soul/spirit returns to the maker that sent it when the flesh dies. Those of Genesis 6, Jude and elsewhere that left their estate were already condemned to die without ever having that opportunity to be born of woman. That is what Nicodemus is being told is the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God, and why Christ expected that Nicodemus being of Israel, surely would have been familiar with Genesis 6 and Ecclesiastes 12 for starters....
And given that of all the peoples Christ had encounters with on His in the flesh mission would have seen fit this 'secret' conversation been recorded and preserved for us in these days to read and prepare our 'soul/spirit' for what to expect.
Jesus very clearly was preparing Nicodemus for the salvation that was to come by His being lifted up on the cross and dying for all mankind. His whole conversation with Nicodemus was clearly laying out the conditions for being born from above, otherwise known as being born of the Spirit of God.
Ah it does not read that Nicodemus has ears to hear or eyes to see what he was being told, which is as much of a lesson to those who will believe in Christ these days. But then again I really have no clue what ultimately Nicodemus believed, but I am most thankful for his story to help me understand, even with all limitations included, at least that all who have been born of woman in this flesh age passed the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God. And that only then is the opportunity available to receive the 'Comfort' of the instruction of the Holy Spirit.
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