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Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
StayCatholic.com ^ | 200 | Sebastian R. Fama

Posted on 03/24/2012 7:24:43 PM PDT by Salvation

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To: daniel1212
Hi Daniel_ I am going to church but one of many things. Jesus is sinless.

When you have a quote this can mean Christ in the Psalm 69.

5 You, God, know my folly;

MY GUILT is not hidden from you.

6 Lord, the LORD Almighty,

may those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me;

may those who seek you not be put to shame because of me.

7 For I endure scorn for your sake, and shame covers my face.

8 I am a foreigner to my own family, a stranger to my own mother’s children;

9 for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

"MY GUILT IS NOT HIDDEN"

THis was used for this.

5 You, God, know my folly; my guilt is not hidden from you. 6 Lord, the LORD Almighty, may those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me; God of Israel, may those who seek you not be put to shame because of me. 7 For I endure scorn for your sake, and shame covers my face. 8 I am a foreigner to my own family, a stranger to my own mother’s children; 9 for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

Of Course. WE know HE is Not a Sinner.

"a stranger to my own mother’s children;"

This is being used to say other children.

Everybody Read carefully what is presented examine it for real. Anybody can present nice neat words. But always examine.

I found this a lot about the Early Church Fathers go to the original words. Watch ourselves.

51 posted on 03/25/2012 2:06:20 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation
>> But you, as well as other members of other denominations would agree with me, that the original Bible and translations came from the Catholic Church, wouldn’t you?<<

And Obama and the Federal government follow the original constitution right? Don’t give me that nonsense about the Catholic Church staying true to original scripture. It doesn’t hold up any more. The Israelites are the original people of God yet the Catholic Church says they no longer are treated as God’s chosen people so the old “we are the originals” obviously isn’t something the CC really holds to either. All of those “we are the original” and “the church Christ instituted” is folly when it’s obvious that over time people fall away from whatever it was that originally formed the belief system and the CC is one prime example as is the current Federal Government example.

52 posted on 03/25/2012 2:19:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Are you forgetting that there are 22 Catholic Churches? Not just the Roman Catholic Church?

Catholic Scripture Study Bible - RSV Large Print Edition


"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther



The Pilgrims' Regress - The Geneva Bible And The "Apocrypha"

The "Inconvenient Tale" of the Original King James Bible
The Bible - an absolutely amazing book
Christian Scriptures, Jewish Commentary
Essays for Lent: The Canon of Scripture
Essays for Lent: The Bible
1500 year-old ‘ Syriac ‘ Bible found in Ankara, Turkey
How we should read the Bible
St. Jerome and the Vulgate (completing the FIRST Bible in the year 404) [Catholic Caucus]
In Bible Times
Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament

Translations Before the King James: - The KJV Translators Speak!
EWTN Live - March 23 - A Journey Through the Bible
"Our Father's Plan" - EWTN series with Dr. Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins on the Bible timeline
The Daunting Journey From Faith to Faith [Anglicanism to Catholicism]
Reflections on the Soon to Be Released New American Bible (Revised Edition)[Catholic Caucus]
New American Bible changes some words such as "holocaust"
Is the Bible the Only Revelation from God? (Catholic / Orthodox Caucus)
History of the Bible (caution: long)
Catholic and Protestant Bibles
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: ON READING THE BIBLE [Catholic Caucus]

Because I Love the Bible
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
When Was the Bible Really Written?
Three Reasons for Teaching the Bible [St. Thomas Aquinas]
The Smiting Is Still Implied (God of the OT vs the NT)
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
Friday Fast Fact: The Bible in English
Bible Reading is Central in Conversions to Catholicism in Shangai, Reports Organization
Verses (in Scripture) I Never Saw
5 Myths about 7 Books

Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
Pope calls Catholics to daily meditation on the Bible
What Are the "Apocrypha?"
The Accuracy of Scripture
US Conference of Catholic Bishops recommendations for Bible study
CNA unveils resource to help Catholics understand the Scriptures
The Dos and Don’ts of Reading the Bible [Ecumenical]
Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
U.S. among most Bible-literate nations: poll
Bible Lovers Not Defined by Denomination, Politics
Dei Verbum (Catholics and the Bible)
Vatican Offers Rich Online Source of Bible Commentary
Clergy Congregation Takes Bible Online
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: Mary's Last Words
A Bible Teaser For You... (for everyone :-)
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: New Wine, New Eve

Return of Devil's Bible to Prague draws crowds
Doctrinal Concordance of the Bible [What Catholics Believe from the Bible] Catholic Caucus
Should We Take the Bible Literally or Figuratively?
Glimpsing Words, Practices, or Beliefs Unique to Catholicism [Bible Trivia]
Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?
Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)
Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible
Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
The Church or the Bible

53 posted on 03/25/2012 2:29:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All


54 posted on 03/25/2012 2:31:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Nice try. Slight of hand and obfuscation works with many. There is a fundamental problem however with the Catholic Church. They disagree with scripture. For instance: Matthew 2:2 "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? When has Jesus been “king of the Jews” according to the CC? Doesn’t the CC believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people?

If the Catholic Church brought us the Bible claim it was only they who are responsible why do they not clarify? Then there are those Catholics that claim scripture contains errors. Why would the CC perpetuate a collection of books that contain errors?

55 posted on 03/25/2012 3:05:41 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: johngrace

Indeed “anybody can present nice neat words,” and indeed you should “always examine,” and thus we need to watch ourselves before we or you jump to conclusions.

For as you should know, a Messianic verse is not determined by whether all of the context is about Christ, and the very Psalm you disallow as having Messianic text is quoted from by the Holy Spirit as such more than once, even if some RCs think they knew better.

See right after the text at issue where it says,

“I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. “ (Psalms 69:8-9)

And which is just what the Holy spirit in Jn. 2:17 states:

“And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. “ (John 2:17; cf. Rm. 15:3)

And there are more, for if Ps. 69:5 disallows v. 8 from speaking of Christ, as some reactionary Romans rule, then it would follow that Ps. 69:4 (They that hate me without a cause..) which is referenced in Jn. 15:25 cannot be either. And the same gospel that invokes Ps. 69:9 in applying it to Christ, also records that “His own received Him not,” “neither did His own brethren believe in Him.” (Jn. 1:11; 7:5)

In addition, while Catholics lack the extensive Scripture commentaries of evangelicals, the conservative Catholic Haydock commentary applies Ps. 69:8 to Christ as well, if not to His own siblings:

“Ver. 9. Mother. This might be true with respect to some apostate Jews. But it was more fully accomplished in Christ, who was betrayed by Judas, &c. (Calmet) -— His own received him not, John i. (Berthier)” haydock1859.tripod.com/id793.html

Also, contrary to your rule, Ps. 41:9 (“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me”) which is confirmed (Jn. 13:18) to be prophetic of Christ, is nor disallowed as being such by v. 4 which states, “I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.”

But the reason Ps. 69:8 is disallowed as being prophetic of Christ is that “my mother’s children” is another example in which the most straight forward denotation would be the siblings of the subject.


56 posted on 03/25/2012 4:38:30 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: CynicalBear

The Jews were and still are, in my opinion, the chosen people. At this point in time, though, the Gentiles have outnumbered them to a great extent.

The “King of the Jews (I.N.R.I,( Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews is biblical. Written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin.....hope I’m right there.

Remember, in one of the Gospel readings someone objects to that moniker by saying “He says he is the King of the Jews.)


57 posted on 03/25/2012 4:53:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

It was the wise men in Matthew 2 that called Him the “king of the Jews”. You don’t believe Jesus was the ruler prophesied in MICAH 5.2?


58 posted on 03/25/2012 7:11:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Quite a bit, obviously. You also might want to familiarize yourself with the teachings of Calvin, Luther and Zwingli, amongst many others, who believed in and taught of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Um, it's not obvious, if it was there would not be a debate, I'm not sure what Calvin, Luther or anyone else have to do with this, but I have to go with the scriptures and not with tradition! Exegetically the perpetually virginity of Mary is not in the scriptures, maybe I missed something, chapter and verse please?
59 posted on 03/25/2012 7:45:59 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: johngrace; caww; count-your-change

I myself gave the link, as well as one to my responses to the rest so far, and there is no reason to post over 13,000 words from your source, while ha ve salvation also reposts what i posted from the same, as if i never did. Its almost like redundant propaganda is supposed to be convincing.


60 posted on 03/25/2012 7:48:54 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: caww

In Scripture, besides the Lord, there is no intercessor in heaven whom people pray to, except pagans, nor is their any warrant for one, but there is a strong psychological appeal to a heavenly mother.


61 posted on 03/25/2012 7:52:55 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Salvation
Were you most concerned with these two sections of all of that?

I posted these with replies. Why are you posting them again unless it is like your usual practice of posting links for an argument?

62 posted on 03/25/2012 7:53:56 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: caww
Easy, maybe becuase his sisters and brothers didn't believe in him. I came from a family who didn't know the Lord....in my will while they were youngsters, if anything were to happen to me I did not leave the care of my children to family members, I appointed a Christian family to raise the. So I have no problem with Jesus 's words to Mary and John....that they be family to one another.....because the family blood line we now have is in Christ....thus the "family of God"

Amen!
63 posted on 03/25/2012 8:00:25 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: CynicalBear

**If the Catholic Church brought us the Bible claim it was only they who are responsible why do they not clarify? Then there are those Catholics that claim scripture contains errors. Why would the CC perpetuate a collection of books that contain errors?**

The RC stance on this is so full of contraditions. Just like when I decided to debate that, during the ‘Temple Alone’ incident, Mary and Joseph were so occupied with possibly as many as four brothers and two sisters (Mark 6:3) of then twelve yr old Jesus, that they traveled all day without noticing him MIA. No other children? And they walk all day without taking a gander of his whereabouts? Where’s DCFS?

The RC defendant I was debating, claimed that Mary and Joseph had no other children, had no need to worry about Jesus, since he was God, and that he would be safe, and probably in the caravan with relatives. No need to worry....but what saith the Word?.....

“And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, they father and I have sought thee sorrowing.” Luke 2:48

‘Sought thee sorrowing’. Sounds like they were not too confident of the child’s safety after all. I believe that the parents were busy handling maybe two or three that were not walking yet, and a couple more that had to be herded along.

The focus of the entire bible is the person Jesus Christ. All of the other people in the scriptures fall into the very distant ‘also mentioned’ category.

(this is probably my only comment on this thread. The big rig awaits me in 7 hrs.)

Lord bless


64 posted on 03/25/2012 8:07:27 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: count-your-change
More redefinition of words to suit Catholic doctrine. Now “until” means “never”, “sister/brother” means “cousin” and “Hebrew and Greek” means “Aramaic”.

This is almost like when I talk to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, redefining terms and definitions!
65 posted on 03/25/2012 8:27:21 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: daniel1212
Yes!

THE Holy Spirit by the Apostles written down for the record but not to point out that there was brethren. Immediate brothers? Not jewish or christian brethren. That is amazing statement.

If you see my profile I had Biblical verses numbers put in awareness by the Holy Spirit which was 41:3 which I found to mean something in my own life. I had a health problem. This was after hours of praying. I found psalm 41:3 answered my problem. Does it mean everything is especially for myself to the exact content in every verse God sends my way?

The problem you present is exactly what does Apostolic succession mean. Does it mean I go by split hairs on verses from you or do I go by people who are have been there for two thousand years.

It is always Easy to criticize, but more difficult to be correct without being part of history. I will go by the historical accounts than other people thousands of years later.

66 posted on 03/25/2012 8:33:33 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: ForAmerica

As I said above to someone

The REdefining and REwording came with the REformation that poor Martin did.

I’m so sorry you don’t have the correct words in your Bible.


67 posted on 03/25/2012 8:38:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ForAmerica

Also remember that all other denominations got their Bibles from the Catholics.

The first Bibles printed were Catholic Bibles.


68 posted on 03/25/2012 8:39:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Documented 36,000 manuscripts of the new testaments, we don't need "the church" to interpret for us!

Wasn't they the ones that tried to keep the bible from the public to keep control of the sheeple?
69 posted on 03/25/2012 8:44:20 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: daniel1212
"As will be seen, the Greek has words it uses for cousins (“suggenēs”, “anepsios”), which are different from the word for brethren (“adelphos”) which often refers to biological siblings. And while adelphos can also often mean brethren in the larger sense, when used with the name of a parent then that is less likely, while celibate marriage is unknown in Scripture, and is contrary to its description, (Gn. 2:24; Mt. 19:4,5) and again, the Holy Spirit abundantly records significant deviations. Thus the burden of proof is upon the Catholic to established perpetual Marian virginity, that this was the case as per his tradition — but which he cannot and does not do."

Photobucket

Tell that to Greek Orthodox Priest who knows greek better than all who do not speak greek. I guess it is all "greek" to the people on that site. LOL!!

The Greek Orthodox Church believe in the perpetual virginity. I guess they can't read greek now. I am amazed when people use this argument.

I know the wife of the Greek Bishop I wonder what He would say. I met her at a coffee cafe. She talked about the real presence with me besides other orthodox christian beliefs. Nice Christian lady. Oh! She speaks greek too.

70 posted on 03/25/2012 8:47:48 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace; daniel1212
HI Dan-Correction.

"If you see my profile I had Biblical verses numbers put in awareness by the Holy Spirit which was 41:3 which I found to mean something in my own life. I had a health problem. This was after hours of praying. I found psalm 41:3 answered my problem. Does it mean everything is especially for myself to the exact content in every verse God sends my way?"

Correction.

Does it mean everything is especially for myself to the exact content in every verse of psalm 41 God sends my way? NO ! I was alerted for 41:3 not the whole psalm.

Sorry I meant the whole Psalm 41 verses. Sorry I left that out. I believe just basically 41:3. I have been on different devices some smaller than others to read or type.

Freeper Cheers!

71 posted on 03/25/2012 8:58:50 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212
Posting a page of links does not justification make but it does often produce the objection, “You didn't read the links I provided!” as if there is something new or unique there.
If a person can't or won't respond to a particular question it seem more honest and straight forward to simply say they don't want to go in that direction than disgorge a list of links.
72 posted on 03/25/2012 9:27:18 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Sioux-san
sioux-san--> the first point you make about Jesus' siblings not being entrusted with the care of their mother neglects the social aspects not only of that time but of any conservative society --> you do not entrust care of your mother to an outsider, you entrust her to your siblings if you have any.

Now if these alleged siblings disagreed with Jesus, why would they not be willing to take care of their mother? Why would He even go against the family, not be the perfect Jewish man by entrusting His mother to an outsider?

I'm sorry, but that argument does not make sense -- if there were brothers, she would be entrusted to them.

You can make some kind of argument if the brothers were dead or if there were sisters, but even in the event of sisters, it was the duty of the son-in-law to take care of the mother-in-law.

La familla :)

73 posted on 03/26/2012 1:24:19 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Sioux-san
sioux-san--> the secnd point you make about brother James is also dubious as brother could mean anything from cousin to a son of Joseph from a previous marriage (tradition has it that Joseph was a grown man, a widower when entrusted with the young Mary).

in this case even then by no means is Jesus was free to pick out whomever he wanted to take care of his mother. -- that was not done. And that is not done today in a conservative society in say the Arab world or India.

In a modern Western society you may do that, but you wouldn't do it in a pre-Industrial west either...

No, we should not view the past through our own moral code but through their own code.

74 posted on 03/26/2012 1:28:50 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Just mythoughts

the Word comes first — and we read and pray over the Word together, don’t we? Why not ponder over what our forebears also thought of the Word? Their thoughts are crystalized on paper so we can see what they thought and prayed over.


75 posted on 03/26/2012 1:32:01 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Cronos

Jesus did a lot of things that “just weren’t done” back in that day. Things that got Him into a world of trouble, which He knew would happen (of course).

We just have to agree to disagree. The Bible gives specific names of people throughout the New Testament,but for the “disciple whom Jesus loved” the Bible chooses not to reveal who that person is— by what right do we name that person when the Bible choses to keep him/her anonymous? Or that the person chosen by Jesus to take care of his mother was John? From what the Gospels said, none of the original 11 were around at the crucifixion, having gone into hiding. Curiouser and Curiouser.


76 posted on 03/26/2012 7:59:22 AM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: johngrace; count-your-change; Quix; CynicalBear; caww

Tell that to Greek Orthodox Priest who knows greek better than all who do not speak greek. I guess it is all "greek" to the people on that site.

That is an argument without substance, and its premise would require you to side with the Greeks in their dissension from Rome on any linguistic issues on the filique, or any that relate to papal infallibility and power, purgatory, etc.

The reality is that knowing Greek does not automatically confer veracity (there are Greek speaking JW's), especially in an age when linguistical claims can be examined. And in the light of which it is easy to see that New Testament pastors were not formally referred to as priests, but bishops/elders, (Titus 1:5-7) both denoting the same persons in the same pastoral office.

And in this case there is no dispute that in the N.T. the Greek has words it can use for cousins [or other kin] which are different words than “adelphos” (“suggenēs:” Luke 1:36,58; 2:44; 21:16; 14:12; Mk. 6:4; Jn. 18:26; Acts10:24; Rom.9:3; 16:7,11,21; or “anepsios:” Col 4:10: ), and that adelphos often refers to biological siblings.

As for my next claim, it would be more accurate to say that when adelphos is used with a parent (not necessarily named), or when one is named as a brother then that it is less likely to be used in the wider sense, (avoiding duplicates: Mt. 1:2,11; 4:18,21; 10:2; 14:3; 17:1; Mk. 5:37; cf. Mt. 13:55)

However, the reality is that the dispute about PMV cannot be determined by linguistics, due to the lack of precision, though they have their influence, while context and the principal of exceptions being manifest play a strong role.

And in regards to the latter, my statements that celibate marriage is unknown in Scripture (presuming ability), and that this is contrary to its description, (Gn. 2:24; Mt. 19:4,5) are also true, as well as the fact that the Holy Spirit abundantly records significant deviations from the norm. And by which we know the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus and His sinlessness, and many other things, from the age of Methuselah to the strength of Samson to the number of toes of Goliath, to the supernatural transport of Phillip, to the signs of an apostle, etc., etc.

And which leaves the Catholic trying to defend cardinal doctrines of Marian exceptions without such revelation or any actual substantiation such as like core Scriptural doctrines have, leaving any real argumentation to being based on silence, that Scripture does not disallow what Rome claims.

The reality is that while the Roman Catholic apologists try far more to defend these Marian exceptions from Scripture than what Rome “officially” does as in the CCC or approved notes, any RCA with such private interpretations of Scripture are merely a “peon with an opinion,” as i think Akin described himself, and these exceptions were not based upon the weight of Scriptural warrant but come from Tradition, and by extension the self-proclaimed assuredly infallible of Rome.

Thus for all the various (and sometimes contradictory) polemical prolixity of such RCAs trying to wrest support from Scripture, as said, that is not their real authority and assurance, and the issue remains that of authority, which has previously dealt with extensively in many other threads.



77 posted on 03/26/2012 9:07:57 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Sioux-san

Jesus was true to the law == honor your father and mother.


78 posted on 03/26/2012 9:27:14 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: daniel1212
So the Greeks got it wrong too.

The lawyering of scripture does not mean just that any someone's opinion is right. I would go by all the history of the immediate people involved from the first generations of the church through time. This is what tradition holds for us. This sounds like a progressive lawyer twisting what the founding fathers of this country have declared. Which sad to say is slowly happening.

It is not about siding but shows that two ancient traditions of the church agree on alot more than disagreements. Anyone can use scripture like a lawyer. The enemy tried it with Christ our Savior. When we deny the history than try to make it after two thousand years for a socalled better interpreting of text than the original generations of the church leaders. It just shows why tradition matters in my view.

Look no matter what God's Divine Mercy can and will overrule and forgive a contrite heart. No matter how formal or informal.

Praise be to Jesus!!

79 posted on 03/26/2012 9:38:17 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: count-your-change

I have no objection to links within in argument in order to substantiate or supplement it, or to support a related issue, or to occasionally refer one to resources for informational purposes, but object to posting a bunch of links in response to an argument as a substitute for a response of your own.


80 posted on 03/26/2012 9:48:24 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Cronos

Amen!


81 posted on 03/26/2012 9:49:05 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212

It’s an argument without substance also because most of Jesus’ disciples were of humble station in life and without a “higher” education.
Saul had probably the best education available yet he spoke of himself as “ignorant” of the truth.
So a Greek Orthodox priest can express error in the most polished of Greek language and it will still be error.


82 posted on 03/26/2012 9:53:13 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: daniel1212

Agreed. Hence I don’t post links, perhaps some reference material, but links? No.


83 posted on 03/26/2012 9:56:44 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: daniel1212

“but object to posting a bunch of links in response to an argument as a substitute for a response of your own.”
Look. So we are in your class . Not a free open exchange of ideas or beliefs among conservatives. It is a belief. Let’s Get off the lawyering mode. It is shown for what it is in history of the church. If we read what is presented we can understand the other view. I read your posts. I found it interesting either way.


84 posted on 03/26/2012 10:10:49 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212

“but object to posting a bunch of links in response to an argument as a substitute for a response of your own.”
Look. So we are in your class . Not a free open exchange of ideas or beliefs among conservatives. It is a belief. Let’s Get off the lawyering mode. It is shown for what it is in history of the church. If we read what is presented we can understand the other view. I read your posts. I found it interesting either way.


85 posted on 03/26/2012 10:11:05 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212

Sorry! Repeat!


86 posted on 03/26/2012 10:12:09 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: count-your-change
So I guess when they trace their history from the beginning and are still in existence for two thousand years as a historical church as Greek speaking believers they must be wrong. Because I do not see it from my view of scripture which is newer ideas than from old hand downs from original church fathers.

So they are in error on language.

It is like someone who does not know the language but thinks he can correct with Greek dictionary. Just amazing.

87 posted on 03/26/2012 10:19:42 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace
Who are these “church fathers” that the predate the Scriptures?

“It is like someone who does not know the language but thinks he can correct with Greek dictionary. Just amazing”

Not at all! You are fluent in English but does that mean no one but a native speaker can correct your usage of the language?
The Pharisees certainly could read and understand Hebrew and had read “Honor your father and your mother...” yet they by their tradition perverted the meaning of “honor” into something quite different.

Look at the use of the word “priest”. No Christian held the office of priest in the Scriptures, so where is the justification for anyone claiming to be such?

88 posted on 03/26/2012 12:00:37 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: daniel1212

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


89 posted on 03/26/2012 12:10:00 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change
"No Christian held the office of priest in the Scriptures....."

That's all famous arguments. That started after the fact. 1500 years after the fact.

"The Pharisees certainly could read and understand Hebrew......"

That's not the point. Greek was shown. Someone who does not know the language is trying to define what it originally means who does not speak the language. It is put there to show what it is suppose to mean by the poster.

You know like point counterpoint in a belief.

All I did was to show that a Greek speaking people and Church see it otherwise.

Plus to judge a language from a dictionary only without knowing it is very bold to the Greek speaking people who believe otherwise. Amazing.

90 posted on 03/26/2012 12:18:01 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Cronos

Agreed - nothing I said conflicts with that.


91 posted on 03/26/2012 12:18:27 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: johngrace; count-your-change; Quix; CynicalBear; caww

"I will go by the historical accounts than other people thousands of years later. "


Besides the variance in historical support, then upon that premise (historical authority=veracity) you have just nuked the church. The premise of the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders was that of yours, but while ordination is provided for by Scripture, it is does not provide assured veracity or infallibility or perpetuation of their office, and yet writings were established as Scripture and truth was preserved without an assuredly infallible magisterium, as God raised up men whose authority was established by conformity to Scripture and the supernatural attestation which it reveals being given to the Truth.

The Lord Jesus Himself was “rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes” (Lk. 9:22) who, like as a true Roman Catholic would do, challenged His authority (nor those of John the Baptist) as it did not come from them, saying, “By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?” (see Mk., 11:27-33) But in contrast to them, the Lord Jesus established His on Scripture and the power of God it affirms, as did the apostles and early church. ( Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12) And reproved by Scripture their presumption in making the mere “tradition of the elders” to be as Scripture which it contradicted (though some Catholics actually argue it did not).

As for the Catholic premise for truth and unity, that of sola ecclesia — with the church being the supreme authority (for it claims to infallibly define what truth consists of and its meaning, and infallibly declares that it is infallible when speaking in accordance with her infallibly defined formula) — you also have disunity, as not only do the EOs disagree on no less an issue than papal infallibility, as well as some other interpretations of Tradition, Scripture and history, but every major cult effectively operates out of the same premise, that of its magisterium speaking infallibly, even if the term is not used. (I am aware that Rome will invoke Scripture to support itself, especially in modern times, but that interpretation only has the authority Rome gives it, and which is based upon the premise of assured infallibility, while the arguments and reasoning behind infallible decrees are not necessarily infallible themselves).

It is true that Catholics must hold to certain core truths, and are in substantial unity with each other, but they can and do being able to disagree about many things not infallibly defined, or where there is room for interpretation. And which is more substantial than one realizes, as Roman Catholics cannot even be sure how many infallible decrees there are, and little of the Bible is held to have been infallibly defined, and they have much liberty to interpret the Bible within their RC parameters.

Likewise evangelicals who hold to the supremacy of Scripture overall hold to certain core truths, and who thus example a common front against cults which deny their shared core truths, and a unity which transcends denominational lines.

They also have varying degrees of interpretation in other things, but are usually are under a magisterium which not only requires or fosters consent to certain core truths but provides general parameters effecting limits to the degrees of interpretation, especially within their own flock, whereby aberrations are manifest. And as a group the evidence testifies to more unity in core truths and Scriptural moral views than their Roman Catholic counterparts, though both are in decline.

In addition, the Roman Catholic magisterium effectively only has power of her own flock, despite claims otherwise, and the unity she effects is not necessarily effectually greater than other individual flocks.

It is also true that Catholics claim to have an assured infallible interpreter, and attack Sola Scripturists for not having one of their supreme authority (Scripture), and relying on fallible human reasoning instead (however prayerful and guided), yet Catholics do not have an assured infallible interpreter of their supreme authority (the magisterium), and can required varying degrees of interpretation, but they engage in fallible human reasoning, while their decision to submit to their assuredly infallible magisterium was itself a fallible human decision.

Thus under both models, that of sola ecclesia and Sola Scriptura you have common consent to core truths, along with formal divisions and internal variation of interpretations, the differences only being a matter of degrees.

How then is truth ascertained and established? The fact is that Scripture is the only transcendent, material authority on faith and morals which is established to be wholly inspired of God, (2Tim. 3:16) due to its Heavenly qualities (conflation and complementarity and power). And most writings were established as such before there was a church in Rome, and was being the standard for obedience and testing truth claims. And nowhere does it promise that the church in Rome would forever be infallible whenever it speaks universally on faith and morals.

Nor does God make Truth so compelling to all so that rebels cannot convince themselves against the reality of God, but Truth is ascertained the same way that light-loving seeking souls were convinced of the gospel truths, that being based upon its conflation with Scripture in text and in power. For of such is the kingdom of God, not in self declaration. (1Cor. 4:20)

And which gospel and its attendant basic truths, and the preaching thereof which effects manifest regeneration, is the most critical testimony to the church of the living God, (1Tim. 1:15) whose builder and maker is God, versus its institutionalized counterpart, having more religious form than life-giving relationship. And which is easy for even a believer to fall into to some degree, if they do not constantly seek to live on the front line of faith, and thus i must preach to myself as well.

92 posted on 03/26/2012 12:37:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: johngrace; count-your-change

You posted this twice, and I do not disagree with the use of links as per my comments, as they allow far more info potentially to be of use, and often are necessary in the interest of brevity for substantiation or supplementation or referencing, but my protestation was against the redundancy of posting links and verbose material in the absence of a response.


93 posted on 03/26/2012 12:45:50 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: johngrace

The meaning of a term in the Scriptures is determined by the understanding and usage of the language at that time not that of today. So what Greek speaking people of today understand as modern Greek is beside the point.
The same could be said of English or Spanish, etc.

“Plus to judge a language from a dictionary only without knowing it is very bold to the Greek speaking people who believe otherwise. Amazing.”

Amazing is the notion that being born into a language group confers expertise covering the past 2500 years of the language.

“That’s all famous arguments. That started after the fact. 1500 years after the fact.”

Then you should have no problem in pointing to one Christian called a priest in the Scriptures. Just one will do but I don’t have 1500 years to wait.


94 posted on 03/26/2012 12:54:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: daniel1212
All that mass wording means is you interpret according to what a verse means by you or a group you belong with same ideas. So we are figuring it out by our own group. The group is infallible until another disagrees and leaves.

We are our own judge of scripture while we declare what the bible only reads. So do charismatics and ceasationist as do others. But still have main differences that matter.

It's a belief.

95 posted on 03/26/2012 1:37:18 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Why do you catholics feel that copying and pasting 250,000 word catholic articles somehow give your positions legitimacy?


96 posted on 03/26/2012 1:37:30 PM PDT by crosshairs
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To: johngrace; count-your-change; Quix; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; caww
All that mass wording means is you interpret according to what a verse means by you or a group you belong with same ideas.

John, that is simply another unproven polemical assertion which is contrary to the facts.

As my posts overall evidence, i seek to prove all things, and make my own arguments, and though i will use those of others if they i think they are warranted, i am rather eclectic in sources. And my "mass of words" ( post #77) evidences this, as these are my own words, and the reasoning and and arguing incorporates little from others, and is about 1200 worda shorter than your unattributed argument that my first post responded to, only to see you repost it again. And in which response i have hardly used the arguments of others (though i did quote a couple RCs).

97 posted on 03/26/2012 7:02:04 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: daniel1212

INDEED.

Thx


98 posted on 03/26/2012 8:45:01 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: johngrace

warning. The guys tosses a lot of mass wording, but contradictory and well false


99 posted on 03/27/2012 1:36:20 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Sioux-san

But it does — as i said, we can’t take today’s Western mores and apply it to that time. Jesus wouldn’t have given care of Mary to someone outside the family. This wouldn’t have been honoring His father and mother


100 posted on 03/27/2012 1:39:42 AM PDT by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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