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LDS Proxy Marriage Rites Bind Slaves to Slavemasters for Eternity, including Thomas Jefferson...
Religion Dispatches.org ^ | March 29, 2012 | Joanna Brooks

Posted on 03/30/2012 8:12:30 PM PDT by Colofornian

Yesterday, Religion Dispatches contributor Max Mueller published a piece at Slate detailing posthumous marriage rites performed in LDS temples that have wed Mormon and non-Mormon slaveholders to their former slave concubines—including Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.

The article sheds light on another form of posthumous religious rites performed in LDS temples. In addition to posthumous baptisms, LDS Church members routinely perform proxy temple marriages or “sealings” for their ancestors and other deceased couples. Church doctrine teaches that marriages performed within LDS temples “seal” husband and wife together not only for mortality but for eternity.

Mormonism uniquely emphasizes eternal marriage as a rite necessary to enter the highest levels of heaven. Viewed through this theological prism (and with a generous dose of romantic idealism about the quality of most human marriages), the practice of posthumous sealings has special warmth for LDS people.

But sealing deceased slaves to their slavemasters? Thomas Jefferson to Sally Hemmings? A relationship that emblematizes slavery’s most complicated and intimate forms of exploitation?

Because such relationships entailed coerced concubinage and, often, rape, Mueller writes, “Sealing a slave master to his slave is at least as troubling as the baptism of Holocaust victims, the practice of which the LDS Church has officially condemned.”

I’m not sure how to judge which is more troubling. But I do know that Mueller’s thoughtful, well-researched, carefully composed essay not only hits hot button issues like Mormons’ historic racial discrimination and contemporary racial insensitivity and the doctrinal persistence of polygamy—after all temple sealing policies permitted a polygamous sealing of Jefferson to Martha Jefferson and Sally Hemmings—but also gestures towards profound ethical and religious questions.

For their part, Mormons have tried to answer questions about posthumous baptisms and sealings by explaining that no posthumous rite is considered binding and that the efficacy of all rites depends on acceptance by the soul of the deceased.

But one element that has consistently gone missing from conversations I’ve witnessed in LDS circles is the acknowledgment that other religious traditions also have theological views of memory, the afterlife, and the connection between the dead and the living. From these non-Mormon perspectives, Mormon posthumous rites appear as a presumptuous claim on humanity’s dead.

Can one religion claim humanity’s dead? What if humanity’s dead are a sacred collective resource—a sacred public domain? There are norms of civility and respect that govern religious conduct in public domains, conditions absolutely necessary to the free exercise of religion without the fear of encroachment or imposition. Extraction of the names of strangers from public records for religious rites, as has been historical Mormon practice, may be viewed by non-Mormons as an uneasy fit with commonly held norms of religious freedom, interfaith deference, and cooperation.

What do Mormons owe to the other human beings with whom we share custody for humanity’s dead: human beings who may have similarly strong religious feelings about their ancestors, and who would like to see those ancestors rest in peace, without their names being said by strangers in unwelcome ceremonies? Or to those who would like to see their ancestors travel on, without being summoned by name back to traumatic relationships they did not choose?

To whom do the dead belong?


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; lds; mormon; sallyhemings; thomasjefferson
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Please note: Headline was too long for FR character allowance...Original headline adds: "and Sally Hemings" @ the tail end...which I cut to fit.

From the article: Yesterday, Religion Dispatches contributor Max Mueller published a piece at Slate detailing posthumous marriage rites performed in LDS temples that have wed Mormon and non-Mormon slaveholders to their former slave concubines—including Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings.

Hmmm...Slaves couldn't "consent" to sex, right? That was sexual slavery that Thomas Jefferson was trafficking in, was it not? And yet the Mormon church has supposedly "sealed" them for eternity?

From the article: Mormon posthumous rites appear as a presumptuous claim on humanity’s dead. Can one religion claim humanity’s dead?...To whom do the dead belong?

Tell ya what? What if those who claim to have seances with the dead...did genealogical research on all of the Mormon dead & began having seances with their spirits???

What if they had open seances with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all manner of dead Mormons?...Why, they might have stenographers who could "record" what these dead Mormons supposedly "told" -- or were to "tell" -- these occult specialists.

And I guess just about any transcripts of what the Mormon dead "go on the record" as saying, well...that "must" be "gospel" -- as in the occult "gospel," that is.

Hey, it's open proselyting season on the dead...

1 posted on 03/30/2012 8:12:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: The article sheds light on another form of posthumous religious rites performed in LDS temples. In addition to posthumous baptisms, LDS Church members routinely perform proxy temple marriages or “sealings” for their ancestors and other deceased couples. Church doctrine teaches that marriages performed within LDS temples “seal” husband and wife together not only for mortality but for eternity. Mormonism uniquely emphasizes eternal marriage as a rite necessary to enter the highest levels of heaven.

Well, the bold-faced part here is where the Mormons get downright theologically hypocritical.

Mormons say ONLY those temple-recommend Mormons -- not even the majority of them -- can get into the highest realm of Mormon heaven.

IOW, it's not open to those who were non-Mormons during their lifetime.

So, why seal Jefferson? (He's not even eligible for the Mormon celestial kingdom)

In fact, Mormons have deemed from their get-go that all non-Lds are "apostates"...including all the founding fathers...

So tell us, Mormons...how can an "apostate" make it into the "celestial kingdom," anyway???

2 posted on 03/30/2012 8:16:43 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

If conservatives here align with the MSM and demorats and let Mormons be pillaged this election cycle, expect it to happen to born again christians next cycle, then catholics, and then we’ll be left with a godless socialist country.


3 posted on 03/30/2012 8:18:17 PM PDT by MrShoop
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To: Colofornian

When will the ghoulish Mormons dead dunk and seal poor Susan Powell to her abusive husband and possible murderer, Josh Powell ???

and the 2 liittle boys..do they get sealed to their murderer, their own father, Josh ???

What a sick religion...


4 posted on 03/30/2012 8:21:38 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Colofornian

I will vote for Romney, most Mormons are decent people......but what a weird freakin’ religion. How on earth can any otherwise sane person believe this stuff?


5 posted on 03/30/2012 8:24:49 PM PDT by bethelgrad
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To: Colofornian

Copied someone else’s post. It seems perfect here.

There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays.

Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.

~ Booker T. Washington (1856-1915.) ~
Educator, Author, Civil Rights Leader


We are being deliberately manipulated to behave, speak and act in certain ways. By withholding critical information or by emphasizing biased viewpoints, we are being jerked around like marionettes on strings, dancing to a tune long ago established by forces beyond our comprehension.

And the media is complicit.


6 posted on 03/30/2012 8:28:10 PM PDT by Freddd (No PA Engineers)
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To: bethelgrad
How on earth can any otherwise sane person believe this stuff?

You say this yet you say "I will vote for Romney" who believes in this "stuff".

Might want to rethink you logic.

7 posted on 03/30/2012 8:30:14 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: bethelgrad

most Mormons are decent people..

- - - - -
HA! Ever live in Utah?


8 posted on 03/30/2012 8:36:55 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: doc1019

He’s better than Obama. You better rethink your logic. If you’d rather have Obama than Romney, then you are an idiot. An illogical one.


9 posted on 03/30/2012 8:44:23 PM PDT by bethelgrad
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To: reaganaut

The LDS do a great job of hiding all their “jack-mormons”


10 posted on 03/30/2012 8:45:50 PM PDT by bethelgrad
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To: Colofornian

Since Brigham Young said that marriage between whites and blacks is forever forbidden and is punishable by death, how can Jefferson and Hemings be eternally sealed in marriage? Is that one of those embarrassing questions that shouldn’t be asked because it wouldn’t be faith-promoting?


11 posted on 03/30/2012 8:52:53 PM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: MrShoop; All
If conservatives here align with the MSM and demorats and let Mormons be pillaged this election cycle, expect it to happen to born again christians next cycle, then catholics, and then we’ll be left with a godless socialist country.

How long have you suffered from basic discernment issues?

Here you use the same kind of reasoning used by Lutheran pastor Martin Niemoller (ALL: Niemoller was a Lutheran leader who opposed Nazism) as if it's somehow some reason we should all be defending Mormons.

I don't think you can use Niemolleresque logic here as such a springboard. Why? Because the Mormons have pillaged Lutherans and the rest of the Christian community, including the Catholics you just referenced.

For example, Mormons have pillaged Christians/Catholics as "apostates" and "corrupt"...here...for precise examples, see this chart below:

Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects

Mormon Source

[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
“...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30
Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938]
“In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]…THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it almost 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, now numbering 52,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996

So...MrShoop...when can we see you chastise the Mormons for the way they have treated Christians/Catholics?

Haven't the Mormons been aligning with the liberals way too long in lambasting Christians??? Or are you two-faced & hypocritical on this?

Besides, MrSharp, the key to using Niemolleresque type of logic is knowing when to apply it...Otherwise, what you get is:

When the Law enforcement folks came for the Planned Parenthood counselors who were telling clients how to get around rape & incest laws,
I remained silent;
For I was not trying to protect a rapist or incest perp.
When they locked up the educators who slept with local students;
I remained silent;
For I was not an abusive educator
When they came for the polygamists marrying underage girls in mock marriage ceremonies;
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a polygamist.
When they came for the abusive Roman Catholic priests
I did not speak out;
For I was not such a priest
When they came for me, even though I was pedophile-free, there was no more pedophiles left to speak out in my defense for my due process & constitutional rights.

Oh, and while we're over-extending Niemolleresque logic here...if a Mormon Smithesque "prophet" comes along in the future, and says Mormons can perform temple proxy honeymoon "endowments" in the future (especially for the more well-endowed)...I guess you won't be able to complain about misusing Niemoller...since you're already guilty of that...

I mean, MrShoop, should you ever find a Mormon bride & if some Mormon dude becomes a honeymoon proxy "stand-in" for ya....somebody could use that Niemoller analogy on you!

Here's what I mean:
First they came for the dead to baptize them,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't dead.

Then they came for the dead to have them married on the
other side of the veil,
and I didn't speak out because I still wasn't dead;
besides, I was already married.

Then they came for the Jewish holocaust victims,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jewish
holocaust victim.

Then they came for my bride at honeymoon time,
and the Mormons made sure no Gentiles were allowed in
the Mormon temple to speak out for me.

12 posted on 03/30/2012 8:56:36 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: bethelgrad
You might dance around my question but the question still remains. You stated:

How on earth can any otherwise sane person believe this stuff? And in the same voice you said: I will vote for Romney Someone that believes in this "stuff"

So you want to elect a person that is less than sane?

13 posted on 03/30/2012 9:01:12 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: reaganaut
"HA! Ever live in Utah?"

No kidding.

14 posted on 03/30/2012 9:02:45 PM PDT by redhead (Alaska: Step out of the bus and into the food chain.)
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To: MrShoop
Mormons be pillaged this election cycle

It is not Mormons who are being pillaged but Mormonism. Like most critics of Mormonism, I have several Mormon friends and I would not allow anyone to personally attack them. Their religious beliefs, like mine, are open to criticism.

15 posted on 03/30/2012 9:02:49 PM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: bethelgrad; doc1019
He’s better than Obama. You better rethink your logic. If you’d rather have Obama than Romney, then you are an idiot. An illogical one.

You're an idiot squared if you actually think Romney can win after the MSM & Dems get done with his racist "I'm a god" socialist lite (govt run healthcare) pro-abortion flip-flopping.

Therefore, when you waste your vote on such a loser, you'll have...
...contributed to the mass exodus of the formerly conservative GoP...
...Republicans who realize that when they have so many so-called "conservatives" voting for somebody to the left of Lyndon Johnson...somebody who embraces socialism...
...it's time to "Whig" extinct the GoP...

But, hey...go ahead & sear your conscience once & for all...

And don't ever complain about others voting for socialist healthcare candidates like Obama...when you're willing to do the same...

Go ahead...train the next generation or two to vote for the (R) candidate over the next 24 years...even if they wind up being to the left of Obama. After all, by your own "logic," a 2036 re-reformed GoP candidate to the left of Obama is bound to be better than a (D) candidate, right?

What an idiot squared.

The GoP establishment has you hoodwinked for good...you'll vote all the rest of your lifetime for whatever (r) candidate they would give to you...all because he's "better" than the (d) candidate.

You'd probably vote for a reincarnated Hitler if he was the (r) candidate...running vs. the (d) "anti-Christ."

"Hey," you'll one day be lecturing, "Hitler reincarnated is 'better' than the anti-Christ. You better rethink your logic. If you'd rather have the anti-Christ, then you are an idiot. An illogical one."

You can stuff your immoral panderings in the sewer where it belongs...stop voting for evil candidates...You will one day answer to a Higher Power about how you tried to empower them.

16 posted on 03/30/2012 9:06:53 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

Thank you for your input. I just spent many minutes of my life creating a logical comeback to bethelgad and you beat me to it ... and did a much better job.


17 posted on 03/30/2012 9:19:02 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: Freddd

Well, that explains why Booker T. Washington is never mentioned during Black History Month.


18 posted on 03/30/2012 9:20:48 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: Colofornian

...except that I just read in an online article that DNA tests indicate Thomas Jefferson’s brother Randolph may more likely be the father of Sally Hemming’s children. How do they prove that? I have no clue. Just saying...


19 posted on 03/30/2012 9:20:48 PM PDT by ArmyTeach (Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain ... USS Iowa BB 61)
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To: bethelgrad

Romney = a ‘white and delightsome’ (book of Mormon term) Obama.

Policy wise they are the same.


20 posted on 03/30/2012 9:24:16 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: bethelgrad

The LDS do a great job of hiding all their “jack-mormons”

- - - - -
Actually, what I learned living in Utah was the ‘jack Mormons’ were more decent and honest then the ‘active’ temple attending faithful Mormons.

There are reasons why Utah leads the nation in white collar crime.

Mormons have great PR, but the reality is vastly different.


21 posted on 03/30/2012 9:25:46 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

Mormon theology is, I’ll say, fairly creative - to state it in a positive fashion. I’m sure that if Romney is the nominee it will be used against him. Might as well face it now.


22 posted on 03/30/2012 9:42:41 PM PDT by TexasKamaAina
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To: bethelgrad
It's a little like Obama/Romneycare. You have to pass the bill, enter into the LDS faith before you know what's in it.
23 posted on 03/30/2012 10:32:11 PM PDT by annieokie
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To: Colofornian

Is “Slate” democrats?


24 posted on 03/30/2012 10:41:24 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (There is nothing "public" about government union-controlled schools)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
Is “Slate” democrats?

(With who the Republicans are runnin' in the POTUS lead, can you as readily tell these days?)

25 posted on 03/30/2012 11:40:55 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

How can anyone take this seriously?


26 posted on 03/31/2012 12:13:14 AM PDT by stuartcr ("In this election year of 12, how deep into their closets will we delve?")
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To: stuartcr
How can anyone take this seriously?

Good question...




27 posted on 03/31/2012 4:39:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: stuartcr
Watch this video on www.youtube.com
…and I'm a MormonWife, mother, and Mayor. My name
is Mia Love, and I'm a Mormon.
YouTube.com/Mormon
Oh oh!
28 posted on 03/31/2012 4:39:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: stuartcr
How can anyone take this seriously?




"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

29 posted on 03/31/2012 4:40:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
...who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'




30 posted on 03/31/2012 4:48:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

??? what is the purpose of this?


31 posted on 03/31/2012 8:45:47 AM PDT by stuartcr ("In this election year of 12, how deep into their closets will we delve?")
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To: annieokie; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; SZonian; T Minus Four; svcw; SENTINEL

It’s a little like Obama/Romneycare. You have to pass the bill, enter into the LDS faith before you know what’s in it.

- - - - - -
That is a great analogy and exactly right!


32 posted on 03/31/2012 9:36:30 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: CommerceComet

As their religious beliefs affect you, feel free criticize, but as to the beliefs themselves, who cares? It is just a weak indirect attack on Romney who has enough real liberal baggage to swing at. It invites scrutiny into everyone religion which is inappropriate and irrelevant.


33 posted on 03/31/2012 9:40:42 AM PDT by MrShoop
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To: MrShoop
"""It invites scrutiny into everyone religion which is inappropriate and irrelevant."""

And to this I say, BRING IT ON. Only the cult religions have something to hide and fear. The ones that keep changing their doctrines to fit an occasion.

Our GOD, the real "I AM" GOD and "His WORD", will never change, not one iota, not one word will change, EVER.

No human has or will ever have the power to do that, many have tried, as the LDS and failed miserably, which is why the LDS is being exposed for the anti christ cultism it is and it too will fail. For that we can thank MITTENS.

The "I AM" will not be mocked.

HE is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We who believe that have nothing to fear by any scrutiny. Bring it on.

The cultist Jim Jones had to take his group out of the country in hiding, only to kill them by poison. Cultist do that as well, not with poison, but with lies that kill the soul, some to the degree they may never return to the truth of the Real GOD. Who will pay for that, we that know the truth and don't disclose it will be held responsible.

34 posted on 03/31/2012 10:12:21 AM PDT by annieokie
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To: reaganaut
"Come into my Parlor, said the spider to the fly".

But, if only someone had told me. "Somebody had told me?"

That lame excuse will never work before the throne of GOD.

We have no excuse for stupidity. Please read label before using product. Mormonism is not fit for a souls comsumption, it is poison.

35 posted on 03/31/2012 10:19:41 AM PDT by annieokie
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To: annieokie

Christianity is better served by not attacking with other decent religions, instead aligning with atheists to attack Mormons. You are aligning yourself with the devil (figuratively).


36 posted on 03/31/2012 10:39:12 AM PDT by MrShoop
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To: MrShoop; annieokie
Christianity is better served by not attacking with other decent religions...

You know, Jesus was a Jew...the chosen people of God...a pretty "decent" religion...

And the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law were part & parcel of that pretty "decent religion..."

In fact, Jesus even complimented them (Pharisees)...well...complimented them at least one time...well, at least He specifically complimented their outward behavior.

Here is Jesus giving a great compliment to the outward "assets" of legalistic Pharisees...telling people that unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees & the teachers of the law, "you will certainly NOT enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:20).

So...did Jesus take your advice overall, MrShoop. Did He not "attack" the decent Jewish religion of the Pharisees?

Matthew 23, Jesus said:

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

In fact, that whole 23rd chapter of Matthew is one long dissing of the Pharisees by Jesus.

You are aligning yourself with the devil (figuratively). [MrShoop]

Actually, your Biblical ignorance slip is showing.

In John 8, Jesus call the legalistic Pharisees "children of the devil."

Shall I go on with all of the other confrontations 'tween Jesus & the legalistic Pharisees, MrShoop.

Are you condemning Jesus for "attacking" a "decent religion?" Yes? No?

Are you trying to "outnice" Jesus, MrShoop?

Hey, if you want to be consistent -- just accuse Jesus of being an "attacker" or "basher" of the Pharisees/religious legalists of his day.

Onto the Question, then, of who's been attacking who for 180+ years:

The Lds "scriptures" reference ALL Christian sects...Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodox -- as being 100% filled with "corrupt professors" who believe 100% creeds which apparently are an "abomination" to the Mormon god.

It's all in the chart I sent you in post #12...What? You can't read charts, MrShoop?

What you have seemingly failed to consider in whatever (if any) reading of the Bible...is that Jesus comforted the afflicted...and He afflicted the legalistically comfortable.

And I frankly cannot think of a more legalistic religion today than the Mormon religion.

37 posted on 03/31/2012 11:17:01 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: MrShoop; annieokie; All
...aligning with atheists to attack Mormons

Mormons have aligned with the atheists to attack Christians for over 180 years!

Mormon teaching is that worldwide Christianity went 100% AWOL.

Here's a basic primer for you: That's called an "attack"...in fact, it's what I call "scorched earth religio-politics." Joseph Smith dug one HUGE figurative graveyard -- and attempted to stick worldwide Christianity in it.

It's foundational Mormon doctrine to believe in a "universal apostasy" -- and then for Mormons to see themselves as the 100% restoration.

So who started that attack? (Mormons)

Who continues that fight? That slander? (Mormons)

Again...address the facts...instead of resorting to your emotion-laden name-calling.

Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects

Mormon Source

[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
“...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30
Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938]
“In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]…THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it almost 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, now numbering 52,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996

38 posted on 03/31/2012 11:22:49 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: MrShoop; CommerceComet
...as to the beliefs themselves, who cares?

We care. We are our brother's spiritual keeper. You may have opted out of being a spiritual neighbor to others; it doesn't mean we have to follow your lead.

You seem to be trying (feebly, IMA) to get some political alliance to "unite" behind an anti-Obama cause.

I've told others on other threads that I could probably guess that the folks who the apostle Paul warned the church @ Ephesus about had the bulk in common with the sheep there. Both groups were "religious."

So, did Paul play the "allies"-game-don't-divide-us-you're playing? (No)

As Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

Tell me something, MrShoop: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

I'll take Paul's already-revealed priorities to your guesswork based upon bashing others as "attackers" & of the devil. I'll take those willing to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3) vs. your apparent ignorance of the Bible.

39 posted on 03/31/2012 11:29:16 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: MrShoop
Oh MY!!! It is the duty of all Christians to enlighten and point the way to Truth. If that offends anyone, so be it, we have no choice but to continue to tell the TRUTH of the "I AM".

If in speaking the truth and some choose to turn their backs on it, not our problem any longer. They have been told TRUTH and its their choice to reject it.

You see someone attempting to commit suicide by jumping from a bridge. What do you do? Sit back and watch their death, or try to change their minds? Same thing with the soul, cults are poison to the soul and spiritual suicide.

40 posted on 03/31/2012 11:52:01 AM PDT by annieokie
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To: MrShoop
As their religious beliefs affect you, feel free criticize, but as to the beliefs themselves, who cares? It is just a weak indirect attack on Romney who has enough real liberal baggage to swing at. It invites scrutiny into everyone religion which is inappropriate and irrelevant.

The first question suggests that you aren't a Christian or you wouldn't ask that question. As Christians, we are commanded to share the Gospel with those, like Mormons, who are in spiritual darkness. In the case of those holding false beliefs, presenting the Gospel often requires exposing the errors of those false beliefs. How can a Christian convince a Mormon of the need for a savior from sin when he falsely believes that he is a god in embryo?

You must not spend much time on the political pages of FR or you would have seen that I have unrelenting in my criticisms of Romney's POLITICAL views and have been since the first Romney run for President. I wouldn't vote for Mitt Romney if he were a Christian evangelical. Since Mitt Romney will give us 90% of Obama's agenda, anyway, why vote for Romney and kill the conservative movement for such a marginal improvement?

Scrutiny of a candidate's religious beliefs is wrong? So would you vote for a Scientologist? Would you vote for an ardent atheist? Would you vote for a Muslim? Would you vote for Muslim extremist? If honest with yourself, somewhere in that list, you would say no which suggests that it isn't that we shouldn't consider religion beliefs as disqualifying but where we draw the line. In your case, apparently, Mormonism is not disqualifying but many people disagree.

Part of the entire process that so disgusts me in this primary season is how quickly the GOP-E has latched onto Romney and how they expect evangelicals to put their principles away to vote him. Part of the GOP-E probably loves putting evangelicals "in their place" but another part is just ignorant of how offensive a Mormon candidate can be to a critical component of their constituency. What they fail to realize is that for most evangelicals, loyalty to Jesus Christ and His Church is more important than loyalty to political conservatism which is important than loyalty to the Republican Party. As for me and my family, we won't vote for someone whose politics and religion are distasteful to us just because he has an R behind his name. I could hold my nose and vote for McCain because although not an evangelical, he wasn't hostile to evangelical Christianity. The same can't be said for Mitt Romney who holds a high position in a "church" which is based upon hostility to evangelical Christianity.

41 posted on 03/31/2012 12:03:21 PM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: Colofornian
LDS Proxy Marriage Rites Bind Slaves to Slavemasters for Eternity


42 posted on 03/31/2012 12:17:25 PM PDT by tomkat ( FU baraq !)
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To: CommerceComet; MrShoop; All

Very well stated post...may link to in future posts...


43 posted on 03/31/2012 12:35:51 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: MrShoop
You might have a point if mormonism was in anyway related to Christianity.

For mormonism that would be godS.

44 posted on 03/31/2012 3:01:52 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: bethelgrad
How on earth can any otherwise sane person believe this stuff?

Yet, you will vote for Romney who believes all that stuff.

45 posted on 03/31/2012 3:04:03 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: Elsie

I just had breakfast at Sambo’s this very morning, it is great family fun.


46 posted on 03/31/2012 3:08:12 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: MrShoop

Everyone’s religious beliefs are who they are.
mormonism at its core is liberal.
Romney is a liberal because he is a mormon not in spite of it.
If you want to know who Romney is, you had better learn what mormonism is.


47 posted on 03/31/2012 3:11:40 PM PDT by svcw (Romney/BHO only difference - one thinks he will be god, they other one thinks he already is.)
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To: MrShoop
And what would those decent religions be?

Certainly you do not mean mormonism, who mocks God Almighty by its own words.

48 posted on 03/31/2012 3:14:38 PM PDT by svcw (Romney/BHO only difference - one thinks he will be god, they other one thinks he already is.)
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To: stuartcr
??? what is the purpose of this?

1. To expose to all who will listen what MORMONism has as SCRIPTURE, has believed and taught.

2. Give any MORMONs reading this a chance to post subsequent SCRIPTURE, beliefs and teachings that now supercede them.


Oh heck; why limit it to just MORMONs?

If ANYONE has any thing from MORMON headquarters that renounces and/or repudiates the stuff I posted; then please post it.

49 posted on 03/31/2012 5:47:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: MrShoop
It is just a weak indirect attack on Romney who has enough real liberal baggage to swing at.

DANG!!

I was hoping for a DIRECT and PUNISHing blow to be landed!

Darn!!

Now folks might say something bad about MY 'religion'.

Go for it:

Christian - subset WESLEYAN doctrine.

50 posted on 03/31/2012 5:50:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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