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Essays for Lent: The Rapture
StayCatholic.com ^ | 2001 | Sebastian R. Fama

Posted on 03/31/2012 8:03:04 PM PDT by Salvation

 

The Rapture

by Sebastian R. Fama

"The Rapture" is a term that is used by Bible Christians to describe the belief that at some point in time Jesus will come, and all true believers will literally rise up and meet Him in the air and be whisked away to heaven. All non-believers will remain on the earth to be dealt with later. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus will come and judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will suffer eternal damnation. No one will be left on the earth.

Belief in such a rapture was first taught in the late 1800’s. Interestingly enough there seems to be little agreement among Bible Christians as to what exactly will happen or when. One of the passages used to support belief in the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Verse 17 says, "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This simply speaks about the end of the world when true believers will be saved. Paul's purpose is not to explain the judgment of the living and the dead, but rather he is assuring believers that the dead will participate in the Second Coming of Christ. Notice what the first and last verses of the passage say: "But we would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep…therefore, comfort one another with these words." The words "caught up in the clouds" are used to illustrate how quickly things will transform at the Second Coming of Christ: "We shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

Matthew 24:36-44 is also used to support belief in the Rapture. It reads in part, "Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left." This means that the righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will be left for destruction (Hell). The conclusion of the passage (verses 45-51) makes this clear: "Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has set over his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites. There men will weep and gnash their teeth." Whenever the term "weep and gnash their teeth" appears in Scripture, it refers to those who are in hell.

Note that verse 45 begins with the words "who then." This shows us that we are still on the same subject as we were in verses 36-44.This is important because it illustrates that on the appointed day the righteous are being saved and the unrighteous are going to hell. Keeping that in mind, who does that leave on earth? No one!

If we combine all of the verses of Scripture that deal with this issue we find that the Rapture is simply not possible. Consider the following:

Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two. The Rapture requires a second coming, (the Rapture) and a third coming (the end of the world). Some try to get past this by claiming that the Rapture is not the Second Coming because we meet Jesus in the air and not on the earth. But even the verses used to support the Rapture such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 speak of it as "the coming", which indicates that it is a coming and a singular event at that.

1 Thessalonians 4:15: "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of man."

1 Corinthians 15:22-23: "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ."

1 Thessalonians 2:19: "For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at His coming?"

Jesus must stay in heaven until that time. That leaves no time for the Rapture before the end of the world.

Acts 3:19-21: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from old."

When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth. He won't be hovering over it, as the Rapture requires.

Acts 1:9-11: "And when He had said this, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead. Once again if all are going to be judged that would leave no one on earth.

Matthew 25:31-46: "When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and He will place the sheep at His right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at His right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'…Then He will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'…And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In conclusion the Scriptures teach us the following:

1. Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two.
2. Jesus must stay in heaven until that time.
3. When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth.
4. When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead.

In John 16:13, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His apostles into all truth. And yet we find no support for the Rapture in the scriptures. Likewise, the writings of the early Church fathers are silent on the issue. Since some of them were contemporaries of the apostles, we can reasonably assume that they would have known about the Rapture if it were a part of the deposit of faith. The Rapture is also not mentioned in any of the creeds. As we noted earlier, the idea of the Rapture was first taught in the late 1800's. If the apostles and their successors were ignorant of the Rapture for eighteen centuries, it would mean that Jesus lied in John 16. That in itself rules out the Rapture.

Copyright © 2001 StayCatholic.com 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; endtimes
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For Further Study

Books - The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen and Will Catholics Be Left Behind? by Carl Olson
CD - The Rapture Files by Tim Staples


1 posted on 03/31/2012 8:03:07 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...
Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two.

Catholic Ping!

2 posted on 03/31/2012 8:06:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Read this book. A much different story

BTW, this book was written in 1881; you wouldn't believe how accurate it is!

The End of the Present World
 
Reading this book was one of the greatest graces of my life!"
— St. Thérèse of Lisieux

In the late nineteenth century, Father Charles Arminjon, a priest from the mountains of southeastern France, assembled his flock in the town cathedral to preach a series of conferences to help them turn their thoughts away from this life’s mean material affairs—and toward the next life’s glorious spiritual reward. His wise and uncompromising words deepened in them the spirit of recollection that all Christians must have: the abiding conviction that heavenly aims, not temporal enthusiasms, must guide everything we think, say, and do.

When Father Arminjon’s conferences were later published in a book, many others were able to reap the same benefit—including fourteen-year-old Thérèse Martin, then on the cusp of entering the Carmelite convent in Lisieux. Reading it, she says, “plunged my soul into a happiness not of this earth.” Young Thérèse, filled with a sense of “what God reserves for those who love him, and seeing that the eternal rewards had no proportion to the light sacrifices of life,” copied out numerous passages and memorized them, “repeating unceasingly the words of love burning in my heart.”

Now the very book that so inspired the Little Flower is available for the first time in English.

Let the pages of The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life fill you with the same burning words of love, with the same ardent desire to know God above all created things, that St. Thérèse gained from them. Let them also enrich your understanding of certain teachings of the Faith that can often seem so mysterious, even frightening:

  • The signs that will precede the world’s end
  • The coming of the Antichrist, and how to recognize him
  • The Judgment and where it may send us: heaven, hell, and purgatory
  • Biblical end-times prophecy: how to read it and not be deceived

    Jesus commands us to be ever-watchful for his return, and ever-mindful that we have no lasting city on earth. The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life is an invaluable aid to inculcating in your spirit that heavenly orientation, without which true human happiness cannot be found—in this world or the next.


3 posted on 03/31/2012 8:11:48 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Essays for Lent: The Rapture
Essays for Lent: Call No Man Father
Essays for Lent: Scapulars Medals and Relics
Essays for Lent: Statues and Holy Pictures
Essays for Lent: The Rosary

Essays for Lent: The Assumption
Essays for Lent: The Immaculate Conception
Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
Essays for Lent: Praying to Saints
Essays for Lent: Indulgences
Essays for Lent: Purgatory
Essays for Lent: Confession
Essays for Lent: The Eucharist
Essays for Lent: The Mass
Essays for Lent: Baptism

Essays for Lent: Justification
Essays for Lent: Tradition
Essays for Lent: Scripture Alone
Essays for Lent: The Canon of Scripture
Essays for Lent: Papal Infallibility
Essays for Lent: The Pope
Essays for Lent: The Church
Essays for Lent: The Bible
Essays for Lent: The Trinity
Essays for Lent: Creationism or Evolution?

4 posted on 03/31/2012 8:16:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The Rapture was a very late development. As this article says, no one had even thought of such an idea until late in the nineteenth century. None of the Protestant denominations had made such an argument. Not even the crazy sects that arose in England during the Interregnum came up with it.

I’ve read various accounts of the idea, and frankly I find it impossible to see how they get any such idea from close reading of the Bible. It just isn’t there.

Very odd, the way it has spread.


5 posted on 03/31/2012 8:24:26 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

Thanks for your input. I don’t know much about this subject at all, excepting that the word “rapture” is not in the Bible.


6 posted on 03/31/2012 8:42:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Two separate comings:

First coming: Thess. 4:13-18 -
Christ meets the church in the air.

Second coming: Zechariah 14:4 -
No meeting in the air, Jesus returns to earth on the Mount of Olives.

Second coming: Revelation 1:7 -
“every eye shall see him”
Unlike the rapture, Jesus will be seen by all.


7 posted on 03/31/2012 8:43:17 PM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: Salvation

There are so many words in the Bible that made it hard to read and understand.
Many words are rooted in Greek and Hebrew and have very different meanings than what one would imagine in these days.

Being raised a Catholic, I never received chapter and verse instruction concerning the Scriptures. We heard sermons, yes; the priest’s message for that Sunday. But, never actual study chapter and verse of the Scriptures, with an understanding of the Greek and Hebrew roots of the words.

I have a dear friend (non-Catholic, but very religious) that once commented how surprised she was that Catholics were “separated” from so much by their priests; that the priests “held” such an authoritative position over the parishioners; almost arrogantly so—as if we were not able to understand God without the help of the priest.

I thank God my mother raised me with religious beliefs, but I wonder what we, as Catholics, have missed by not studying the Scriptures chapter and verse with knowledge of the root language used in the Bible.

Is the rapture belief unfounded when the root of the words are misunderstood?


8 posted on 03/31/2012 9:20:52 PM PDT by Mortrey (Impeach President Soros)
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To: Salvation

The “rapture” was a Protestant invention. There is no agreement on where it states it in Scripture because the Catholic Church interpretation of the end of the world (as it says in John) is the correct one...all other interpretations are Protestant, that is, as one chooses/likes.


9 posted on 04/01/2012 5:00:16 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Salvation
Belief in such a rapture was first taught in the late 1800’s

Wrong !... Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory.

10 posted on 04/01/2012 6:11:43 AM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
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To: cloudmountain; Salvation; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Quix; ...

Actually,

“Another suggestion traces the influence to a Jesuit priest, Manuel Lacunza (1731-1801), who was born in Chile but came to Italy in 1767 where he would spend the rest of his life. Posing as a converted Jew (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra), he wrote, in Spanish, a large apocalyptic work entitled The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty. The book appeared first in 1811, 10 years after his death. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp

Another influence is said to be a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) was a Spanish Jesuit theologian, identified with the Futurist Christian eschatological view.

“In the Dictionary of Premillennial Theology (1997) it is said that Ribera was an Augustinian amillennialist, who may have revived a “mild” form of futurism.[1] His interpretation was then followed by Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Malvenda.[2]

Thomas Brightman, in particular, writing in the early 17th century as an English Protestant, contested Ribera’s views. He argued that the Catholic use of the Vulgate had withheld commentary from the Book of Revelation, and then provided an interpretation avoiding the connection with the Papacy put forward in the historicist point of view.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Lacunza

Ribera “in the days of the Reformation, first taught that all the events in the book of Revelation were to take place literally during the three and a half years reign of the antichrist way down at the end of the age.” http://www.theologue.org/Theory-JPEby.html (Protestant source, which gives the most lengthy explanation).

==============================m

I myself also see the “rapture”- which term is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—”we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]) - as being the first resurrection, (Rv. 20:5,6) which is only for the saved, “the resurrection of life, (Jn. 5:29a), the “resurrection of the just,” on the “day of the Lord, in which all the bodies of believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and go on with Him to the battle of Armageddon.

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. “ (1 Thessalonians 4:14)

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. “ (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. “ (Jude 14-15)

Those who effectually believe on the Lord Jesus now have eternal life life, and if they die in the Lord they shall go to be with the Lord, (2Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) but their rewards or loss thereof are not given out until that “day of the Lord.”

Believers will be rewarded for their good works, (Lk. 14:14; cf. 1Cor. 4:5; Acts 24:15) in distinction to “the resurrection of damnation” (Jn. 5:29b) which evidently occurs 1,000 years after, (Rv. 20:5) and in which believers will be part of the jury in the judgement of men and angels.

“Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. “ (1 Corinthians 3:13)

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, “ (2 Thessalonians 2:1)

And on that “day” every believer shall “receive his own reward according to his own labour,” (1Cor. 3::8) including suffering loss of rewards:

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. “ (1 Corinthians 4:5)

And will sit with Him in judgment of men and of angels:

“Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? “ (1 Corinthians 6:3)

Those who die in their sins shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth upon them, yet their exact degree of punishment is not meted out until the Great White Throne judgment.

The “great and notable day of the Lord” ‘ Acts 2:20) culminates in the Great White Throne judgment in which the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, (Rv. 20:11-5) with their degree of punishment being determined in accordance with how much light and grace was given. (Lk. 10:12-13; 12:47,48)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JESUS CHRIST was His Name, the SON of GOD from above:
Mighty in deed, righteous in heart, and perfect in love.

Casting out demons, and healing the sick, full of GOD’s SPIRIT & power;
But only the humble and contrite could know Him, and this was their hour.

Speaking the Truth by the SPIRIT, JESUS said He must do more;
For it is sin which damns souls, that must be atoned for.

“Without shedding of blood, there is no remission;”
To save fallen man, from his sinful condition.

GOD’s prophets of old showed how the Messiah would come;
To die on the cross and rise, our redemption be done!

So CHRIST faced the cross, and all that it meant;
To become sin for us, to spend and be spent.

Having done all, He gave up the ghost,
and now reigns in Glory – but the Devil will roast!

Now if GOD did all this, both for you and for me,
you must needs repent, if Heaven you’ll see.

He alone knows all your heart, for His eyesight is pure;
To die in your sins means damnation for sure!

The time then is now, while God’s SPIRIT still draws;
Believe CHRIST to save you, for you’ve broken GOD’s laws.

can’t save yourself by your works and your deeds;
It’s CHRIST blood that saves us, and thus did He bleed.

So give Him your sins, your life and your will,
And receive Him in heart, that His SPIRIT may fill.

If you’ll believe God’s truth, a new creation you’ll be;
Be buried & risen with Christ in baptism, and walk in victory!


11 posted on 04/01/2012 6:45:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Salvation
>> excepting that the word “rapture” is not in the Bible.<<

Why would you perpetuate that lie? I thought you Catholics thought highly of the Latin and understood what it meant.

Rapture translation 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I Thessalonicenses 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus Caught up (Greek: harpazo - to seize, carry off by force)

Caught up (Latin: rapiemur - shall be caught up)

English Rapture.

12 posted on 04/01/2012 7:01:32 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Salvation; ScottfromNJ; All

It’s true, the Latin word “repiemur” appears there in 1 Thess 4:17. However of course, the English word “rapture” isn’t there. Perhaps that’s what Salvation was thinking. At any rate...

The “modern” idea of the “rapture” though (succinctly described by Scott), is clearly not in Scripture. I must admit, I have been befuddled by that verse, however it wasn’t until just today that I actually read the context of Scripture that surrounds it; now it seems quite clear the idea of a mysterious whisking away of believers won’t happen.

1 Thess 4:15-18.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note verse 16; this is so overlooked in such discussions, and I guess, for good reason. I think it’s clear what’s being described here: The Catholic (and some Protestant) Eschatology. That is, that Jesus will return in a loud, very visible way. Once. First, to raise the dead and judge them, and then, during this same Second Coming, those that are alive and are in a state of Grace, will be also judged and taken up into the clouds with Him.

One return, quite visible. No mysterious whisking away of the believers first. It’s actually the opposite; the dead are raised first, then the believers (both those who have died and were raised again during the Second Coming, and those who didn’t die yet) are assumed bodily into the clouds. I hate to say it (because I always criticize similar claims), but the Bible seems quite clear on this.


13 posted on 04/01/2012 8:08:52 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: daniel1212
Nice words you wrote, Daniel.

And, since you are a Protestant, you are allowed to interpret Scripture ANY way you choose to. So, for you, the rapture is real and on its way.

Being Catholic, I take the word of the Church, not words of individual priests. I always look for the words nihil obstat (declaration) and Imprimature (Let it be printed.). Those words make whatever is printed official Church-backed information.

So far, I've not seen hide nor hair of nihil obstat and Imprimature.

14 posted on 04/01/2012 9:24:27 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Salvation
No one will be left on the earth.

So, the earth is empty? What happens then?

Don't tell me . . . it gets "burned up" and replaced by a superior "spiritual" world of disembodied spirits in which matter no longer exists . . . right?

15 posted on 04/01/2012 9:53:36 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: FourtySeven
>>but the Bible seems quite clear on this.<<

So would you “clearly” describe how that passage works into the end times? Does Christ fight Armageddon at the same time we are being “caught up” or is that different?

16 posted on 04/01/2012 10:10:33 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: daniel1212; cloudmountain; Salvation; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; ...
I myself also see the “rapture”- which term is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—”we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]) - as being the first resurrection, (Rv. 20:5,6) which is only for the saved,

I agree. There is no point to a "rapture". When the Lord returns *POOF* that will be that.

As for the rapture being a Protestant invention as cloudmountain points out, this Protestant would have to agree. The rapture is to Protestanism as a sinless Mary is to Catholicism. Both sound good but are simply an invention of man. Neither has any support in scripture. But the rapture isn't accepted "official" doctrine of all Protestants.

17 posted on 04/01/2012 10:10:43 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Salvation
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

- The Shepherd Of Hermas (95 - 150 AD)

18 posted on 04/01/2012 10:32:25 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: FourtySeven

The Church “body of Christ” won’t go through the tribulation as indicated in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 -

“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”

And 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 says that the man of sin can’t be revealed until there’s a removal of a restraining power “Church, body of Christ”

Here’s another indication of two separate events:

The Gospels say Jesus Christ returns to the earth and conquers it, and the people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats.

The event described here is different in nature then what’s described in 1 Thess 4:15-18. If it’s the same event, there wouldn’t be any sheep left on earth, only goats since the sheep have already been taken to the air to meet the Lord.


19 posted on 04/01/2012 10:34:05 AM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: RegulatorCountry
"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

- Victorinus ( Prior to 270 - 303 AD)

20 posted on 04/01/2012 10:37:29 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
:"Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

- Clement Of Rome

21 posted on 04/01/2012 10:42:26 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
"All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

- Ephraim The Syrian

22 posted on 04/01/2012 10:46:04 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: CynicalBear
>> excepting that the word “rapture” is not in the Bible.<<

The rapture event is mentioned in the Bible. What ISN'T mentioned in the Bible is Purgatory.
23 posted on 04/01/2012 11:12:30 AM PDT by crosshairs (Some ideas are so stupid, only intellectuals believe them. --- George Orwell)
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To: RegulatorCountry
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one take your crown."

- Revelation 3:10-11 (To the Church ofPhiladelphia)

24 posted on 04/01/2012 11:13:53 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: HarleyD
HarleyD
John 21:25 There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written no even the world itself, I think, could hold all the books that would have to be written. Amen."

So how do we learn about THOSE things? Apostolic Tradition. After all, the New Testament, as a book, didn't get put together until 420 A.D. And THOSE books were judged to be worthy and accurate by the Catholic bishops, the ROMAN Catholic bishops in Rome.

There is no line in Scripture that says that Scripture is the SOLE source of our teaching, but then, sola scriptura,is an invention of excommunicated Catholic priest, Doctor Father Martin Luther.

Father Luther did dump seven of the OT books (Tobias, Baruch, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiatics I and II, Macabees, seven chapters of the book of Esther, AND 66 verses of Daniel 3) and WANTED to dump the letter of St. James but his followers talked him into putting the letter of St. James BACK into "his" (his words not mine) New Testament.

I had an OLD friend (Reared Baptist, changed to Presbyterian because the Baptist church is her town (where she lived in as an adult) was not....well, not what she and her family wanted, read an excerpt from the Book of Wisdom at my husband's funeral. She called and said "Book of What?" We still laugh about that.

25 posted on 04/01/2012 12:50:54 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: HarleyD; daniel1212

Just to be clear, are you and Daniel saying that the Church the Body of Christ will be going through the tribulation? I’m not fully clear on what you both are saying..:)


26 posted on 04/01/2012 2:46:24 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

You quote a priest and a book, but no verifiable source. Could you also post that?


27 posted on 04/01/2012 3:07:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CynicalBear

caught up does not mean rapture.

I can be caught up in a maze and not find my way out of it. Or caught up in a task and get distracted from fixing supper.

What about the Bible saying that Christ will only come once more at the General Judgement?

Doesn’t a rapture insinuate that Christ comes and takes some people.

At the General Judgment (Book of Revelation) is when we see Christ coming on a cloud.


28 posted on 04/01/2012 3:11:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: FourtySeven

You put that very well, thanks.


29 posted on 04/01/2012 3:12:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: FourtySeven

** Perhaps that’s what Salvation was thinking. At any rate...&&

Just like believers of other faiths are always saying that Purgatory is not in the Bible, but the words, purge, cleanse, clean are.

LOL!


30 posted on 04/01/2012 3:14:37 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: FourtySeven

** Perhaps that’s what Salvation was thinking. At any rate...&&

Just like believers of other faiths are always saying that Purgatory is not in the Bible, but the words, purge, cleanse, clean are.

LOL!


31 posted on 04/01/2012 3:15:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I believe the "burning up" happens before. Have you read this thread? It describes it.

The Three Days of Darkness & Prophecies of Latter Times [Catholic Caucus]

32 posted on 04/01/2012 3:18:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: HarleyD

Good to hear your point of view here, thanks!


33 posted on 04/01/2012 3:19:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: crosshairs

But there are many references to Purgatory, just as some on this thread are claiming there are reference to rapture.


34 posted on 04/01/2012 3:20:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
I believe the "burning up" happens before. Have you read this thread? It describes it.

If the material universe is not to be itself fully fulfilled but merely burned up, then why did G-d create it in the first place?

35 posted on 04/01/2012 3:35:19 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Salvation
Its all over the internet. If you really want the truth you gotta dig for it. I am not doing your homework for you.

The fact is there have been multiple views about the end times. I don't accept any Church's Dogma about a certain viewpoint. I read and study the Bible and come up with my own conclusions. I trust Christ with my soul. The rest like eschatology does not effect my salvation status anyway. So I tend to be tolerant of any viewpoint regarding how the world will come to an end and the arrival of the Kingdom. But we need to get facts straight.

The Bible when read for me indicates that there will be a rapture then the second coming. And in the end it does not really matter. If you have not accepted Christ as savior then hellfire awaits regardless of any personal eschatological view.

36 posted on 04/01/2012 3:47:55 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
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To: cloudmountain; ColdSteelTalon; HarleyD
And, since you are a Protestant, you are allowed to interpret Scripture ANY way you choose to. So, for you, the rapture is real and on its way.

Rather, since i am a evangelical Protestant, i am free to go where the truth leads, and examine truth claims by Scripture, in accordance with the manner of doctrinal exegesis it teaches, as noble men whom the Holy Spirit commends did, (Acts 17:11) and upon which warrant Christ established His claims and thus the church, rather than giving implicit assent of faith to a self-proclaimed assuredly infallible magisterium (sola ecclesia).

The reality is rather than doctrinal anarchy characterizing historical Protestantism, those who hold to the supremacy of Scripture are marked by a common assent to core truths, and thus contend against cults who deny them.

While characteristically commonly holding to core truth, those who hold to Sola Scriptura do have disagreements in other areas, and likewise Roman Catholics must hold to certain core truths, while allowing varying degrees of disagreement in other things.

And under sola ecclesia there are also formal divisions. The difference between the two models is only a matter of degrees, while groups actually operate according to the means of Rome - that of a supreme magisterium acting as if it was assuredly infallible (sola ecclesia) - teach the more perverse things.

Being Catholic, I take the word of the Church, not words of individual priests. I always look for the words nihil obstat (declaration) and Imprimature (Let it be printed.). Those words make whatever is printed official Church-backed information.

Actually, despite your assurance of doctrine you assert you find in Rome, there is much disagreement and uncertainty, which even extends to what considered “infallible teaching.”

Can you tell me how many infallible teachings there are? Are all encyclicals infallible? Is everything in the Roman Catholic catechism infallible? Is everything Trent taught infallible?

So far, I've not seen hide nor hair of nihil obstat and Imprimature.

Well, the very article of the OP which you responding to has none, but your statement is just another example of the confusion that exists in Roman Catholicism, in which many opinions are offered as what kind of assurance these stamps provide. Some see them as assuring orthodoxy, while others do not even bother to seek them anymore, despite its history and the weight the Catechism places on such approval.

But since you see these as assuring such are official Church-backed information, then if you must defend such, you must support such teachings as that,

* Genesis 2 (Adam and Eve and creation details) and Gn. 3 (the story of the Fall), Gn. 4:1-16 (Cain and Abel), Gn. 6-8 (Noah and the Flood), and Gn. 11:1-9 are “folktales,” using allegory to teach a religious lesson

*The story of Balaam and the donkey and the angel (Num. 22:1-21; 22:36-38) was a fable, while the records of Gn. (chapters) 37-50 (Joseph), 12-36 (Abraham, Issaac, Jacob), Exodus, Judges 13-16 (Samson) 1Sam. 17 (David and Goliath) and that of the Exodus are stories which are "historical at their core," but overall the author simply used "traditions" to teach a religious lesson.

*The ages of the patriarchs after the flood are artificial and devoid of historical value.

*The Israelites crossed over the Reed Sea, which was “probably a body of shallow water somewhat to the north of the present deep Red Sea” (yet perhaps making the drowning of Pharaoh's army equally miraculous).

*Matthew may have only placed Jesus in Egypt to convince his readers that Jesus was the real Israel, and may have only represented Jesus giving the Sermon on the Mount on a mount.

And there is more, and to which can be added such things as papal sanction of torture of theological deviants, or suspects of such, and burning of heretics, of which class Rome now calls separated brethren.

37 posted on 04/01/2012 4:19:05 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: FourtySeven; Salvation; ScottfromNJ; smvoice; metmom; boatbums; caww

Your post 13 brings up another question. If you don’t believe in the rapture then you must believe that faithful Christians must go through the time of the wrath of God. Would you show from scripture just one time that those who have been faithful to God had to endure His wrath?


38 posted on 04/01/2012 4:48:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: crosshairs
>> The rapture event is mentioned in the Bible. What ISN'T mentioned in the Bible is Purgatory.<<

Correct. Also that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven or that she is the “queen of heaven”.

39 posted on 04/01/2012 4:52:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Salvation
>>caught up does not mean rapture.<<

Oh really?

First of all I would have thought you would have put more time investigating the meaning of rapiemur. I’m disappointed in your response Salvation. Did you actually think the RCC made a mistake in the Dewy Rheams and the Latin Vulgate as well? Check here; http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=13&c=4.

Even the answers found at catholic.com would disagree with the Catholics on this forum it seems.

“The word Rapture is connected to the Latin word rapiemur, which appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up: Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term Rapture, nor do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.” Jim Blackburn http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture.

It would appear that in fact Catholics do believe in the rapture but at a later time than many Protestants.

Now that brings up a question. If Catholics think the faithful Christians will be here during the time of the wrath of God they obviously believe that faithful Christians will experience the wrath of God. Would you please show from scripture where faithful followers of God had to endure His wrath as Catholics evidently believe they will in the end times?

40 posted on 04/01/2012 5:28:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The thing/things to be fulfilled are God’s promises/covenants. I trust in God’s love for those who love Him. Being sovereign, He does what He wills.

My guess for the why of creation is His glory, as hard to grasp as that is.


41 posted on 04/01/2012 5:33:28 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: cloudmountain; daniel1212
You need to tell this Catholic at Catholic Answers that he’s wrong then.

“The word Rapture is connected to the Latin word rapiemur, which appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up: Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term Rapture, nor do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.” Jim Blackburn http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture.

42 posted on 04/01/2012 5:35:41 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: anathemized
My guess for the why of creation is His glory, as hard to grasp as that is.

Which, logically, is why it should be purified and returned to its original state, not burned up.

43 posted on 04/01/2012 5:42:40 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Salvation
>> But there are many references to Purgatory<<

Would you give the Book, chapter and verse for that?

44 posted on 04/01/2012 5:47:23 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I’m sorry that I did not limit my guess to the creation of the material world. Perhaps there are spiritual concerns which we are even less able to comphrehend.

Purification is often accomplished through burning.

In 2 Peter 3:10-14 is writing of a new earth and new heavens made suitable for righteousness.

I hope you keep searching for a better answer than I can give, rather than concluding that God blundered.


45 posted on 04/01/2012 6:35:08 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
IMO the ones going thru the tribuation will be Jewish Christians and those who come to Christ during that time. We will not be here....and the arguments done and said many times on the threads attest to that.

Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time. If they're not.. then they don't have a leg to stand on in their arguements.

Noah took care to do what God asked by stock piling the ark and preparing....so those who think they'll be going thru this time better get in gear if not doing so now.

46 posted on 04/01/2012 6:36:44 PM PDT by caww
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To: CynicalBear
So would you “clearly” describe how that passage works into the end times? Does Christ fight Armageddon at the same time we are being “caught up” or is that different?

I'm not sure. It seems to me though there is quite enough of a possibility that after He returns, but before raising the dead, He could "fight Armegeddon". That is, the passage in 1 Thess doesn't necessarily preclude something else He might do after He returns. However I think the timeline as far as the raising of the dead and the "rapture" of the believers is concerned is pretty clear. The dead are raised before all believers are taken to Heaven. Whatever may happen before, or even in between isn't necessarily prohibited by Scripture.

All that said, I'm not sure which event or events you're referring to when you say "[Jesus] fights Armeggedon". Just out of curiosity, as again, 1 Thess doesn't say the *only* thing Jesus will do when He returns is raise the dead and then bring all believers to Heaven.

47 posted on 04/01/2012 7:04:24 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: CynicalBear
I go with Jim.
Second Coming of Jesus: it's all over. Heaven/Hell.

I have often wondered: what comes AFTER the Second Coming? Will God start it all over again with another human race? I will ask Our Lord when I see Him. I PLAN on seeing Him, after my appropriate time in purgatory. Although, with my hip problem I am now doing purgatory TIME.

I also plan on asking Our Lord about the construction of the human knee. What WAS He thinking of? I have no knee problems but SO many humans do.

48 posted on 04/01/2012 7:18:24 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: caww
>> IMO the ones going thru the tribuation will be Jewish Christians and those who come to Christ during that time.<<

Yep, and only 124,000 of those Jews will actually be true believers who survive through the Tribulation. All others who become believers after the rapture will be killed.

>> Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time.<<

There is some serious denial going on with most who don’t believe in the rapture. I’m even stocking up and preparing for the tuff times I think will come before the rapture. It’s only going to get progressively worse after that.

49 posted on 04/01/2012 7:25:07 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
There is some serious denial going on with most who don’t believe in the rapture. I’m even stocking up and preparing for the tuff times I think will come before the rapture. It’s only going to get progressively worse after that.

I've been putting off discussion of this with my family members, sons who are grown with chidren now. But in the next few weeks I intend to have serious discussion of what they think and are preparing for ahead.

I know one son has begun stocking food items...and the other has determined a "bug out route"....and place where he believes is safest in the mountains. But these have been comments almost in passing....it's time to do a sit down now.

The problem will be timing....if stuff happens at once and quickly transportation routes will be an issue as well as means of

50 posted on 04/01/2012 7:31:53 PM PDT by caww
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