Posted on 03/31/2012 8:03:04 PM PDT by Salvation
The Rapture
by Sebastian R. Fama "The Rapture" is a term that is used by Bible Christians to describe the belief that at some point in time Jesus will come, and all true believers will literally rise up and meet Him in the air and be whisked away to heaven. All non-believers will remain on the earth to be dealt with later. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus will come and judge the living and the dead. The righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will suffer eternal damnation. No one will be left on the earth. Belief in such a rapture was first taught in the late 1800’s. Interestingly enough there seems to be little agreement among Bible Christians as to what exactly will happen or when. One of the passages used to support belief in the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Verse 17 says, "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." This simply speaks about the end of the world when true believers will be saved. Paul's purpose is not to explain the judgment of the living and the dead, but rather he is assuring believers that the dead will participate in the Second Coming of Christ. Notice what the first and last verses of the passage say: "But we would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep…therefore, comfort one another with these words." The words "caught up in the clouds" are used to illustrate how quickly things will transform at the Second Coming of Christ: "We shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Matthew 24:36-44 is also used to support belief in the Rapture. It reads in part, "Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left." This means that the righteous will be saved and the unrighteous will be left for destruction (Hell). The conclusion of the passage (verses 45-51) makes this clear: "Who then is the faithful and wise servant whom his master has set over his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that wicked servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites. There men will weep and gnash their teeth." Whenever the term "weep and gnash their teeth" appears in Scripture, it refers to those who are in hell. Note that verse 45 begins with the words "who then." This shows us that we are still on the same subject as we were in verses 36-44.This is important because it illustrates that on the appointed day the righteous are being saved and the unrighteous are going to hell. Keeping that in mind, who does that leave on earth? No one! If we combine all of the verses of Scripture that deal with this issue we find that the Rapture is simply not possible. Consider the following: Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two. The Rapture requires a second coming, (the Rapture) and a third coming (the end of the world). Some try to get past this by claiming that the Rapture is not the Second Coming because we meet Jesus in the air and not on the earth. But even the verses used to support the Rapture such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15 speak of it as "the coming", which indicates that it is a coming and a singular event at that. 1 Thessalonians 4:15: "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of man." 1 Corinthians 15:22-23: "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ."
1 Thessalonians 2:19: "For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at His coming?" Jesus must stay in heaven until that time. That leaves no time for the Rapture before the end of the world. Acts 3:19-21: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from old." When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth. He won't be hovering over it, as the Rapture requires. Acts 1:9-11: "And when He had said this, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead. Once again if all are going to be judged that would leave no one on earth.
Matthew 25:31-46: "When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and He will place the sheep at His right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at His right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'…Then He will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'…And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." In conclusion the Scriptures teach us the following: 1. Jesus will be coming back to earth one more time not two. In John 16:13, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead His apostles into all truth. And yet we find no support for the Rapture in the scriptures. Likewise, the writings of the early Church fathers are silent on the issue. Since some of them were contemporaries of the apostles, we can reasonably assume that they would have known about the Rapture if it were a part of the deposit of faith. The Rapture is also not mentioned in any of the creeds. As we noted earlier, the idea of the Rapture was first taught in the late 1800's. If the apostles and their successors were ignorant of the Rapture for eighteen centuries, it would mean that Jesus lied in John 16. That in itself rules out the Rapture.
2. Jesus must stay in heaven until that time.
3. When He comes He will be coming all the way down to the earth.
4. When He comes He will be coming to judge the living and the dead.
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The thing/things to be fulfilled are God’s promises/covenants. I trust in God’s love for those who love Him. Being sovereign, He does what He wills.
My guess for the why of creation is His glory, as hard to grasp as that is.
“The word Rapture is connected to the Latin word rapiemur, which appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up: Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term Rapture, nor do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.” Jim Blackburn http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture.
Which, logically, is why it should be purified and returned to its original state, not burned up.
Would you give the Book, chapter and verse for that?
I’m sorry that I did not limit my guess to the creation of the material world. Perhaps there are spiritual concerns which we are even less able to comphrehend.
Purification is often accomplished through burning.
In 2 Peter 3:10-14 is writing of a new earth and new heavens made suitable for righteousness.
I hope you keep searching for a better answer than I can give, rather than concluding that God blundered.
Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time. If they're not.. then they don't have a leg to stand on in their arguements.
Noah took care to do what God asked by stock piling the ark and preparing....so those who think they'll be going thru this time better get in gear if not doing so now.
I'm not sure. It seems to me though there is quite enough of a possibility that after He returns, but before raising the dead, He could "fight Armegeddon". That is, the passage in 1 Thess doesn't necessarily preclude something else He might do after He returns. However I think the timeline as far as the raising of the dead and the "rapture" of the believers is concerned is pretty clear. The dead are raised before all believers are taken to Heaven. Whatever may happen before, or even in between isn't necessarily prohibited by Scripture.
All that said, I'm not sure which event or events you're referring to when you say "[Jesus] fights Armeggedon". Just out of curiosity, as again, 1 Thess doesn't say the *only* thing Jesus will do when He returns is raise the dead and then bring all believers to Heaven.
I have often wondered: what comes AFTER the Second Coming? Will God start it all over again with another human race? I will ask Our Lord when I see Him. I PLAN on seeing Him, after my appropriate time in purgatory. Although, with my hip problem I am now doing purgatory TIME.
I also plan on asking Our Lord about the construction of the human knee. What WAS He thinking of? I have no knee problems but SO many humans do.
Yep, and only 124,000 of those Jews will actually be true believers who survive through the Tribulation. All others who become believers after the rapture will be killed.
>> Should any believe they'll not be "caught up with Christ" before these begin, then no doubt they would be heavily into the survialist mode by stocking up and preparing for that time.<<
There is some serious denial going on with most who don’t believe in the rapture. I’m even stocking up and preparing for the tuff times I think will come before the rapture. It’s only going to get progressively worse after that.
I've been putting off discussion of this with my family members, sons who are grown with chidren now. But in the next few weeks I intend to have serious discussion of what they think and are preparing for ahead.
I know one son has begun stocking food items...and the other has determined a "bug out route"....and place where he believes is safest in the mountains. But these have been comments almost in passing....it's time to do a sit down now.
The problem will be timing....if stuff happens at once and quickly transportation routes will be an issue as well as means of
In other words you don’t have a clue as to what scripture teaches about the end times. Oh well, make sure your trust is in Jesus alone.
Two points here. One, this passage doesn't say, "rescues us from God's wrath", it just says "wrath". Thus, two, it could be taken as an encouragement to endure wrath upon Christianity, IOW, it could be taken as a prophecy of upcoming persecution, and an exhortation that such persecution will be prevailed upon, which of course did occur (early Christians were persecuted, but eventually were "delivered" from such "wrath" when Christianity became leagalized in the Roman Empire.) You may not agree with this alternate hypothesis, but I maintain it's at least as reasonable as yours, despite what you may say to the contrary.
And 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 says that the man of sin can’t be revealed until there’s a removal of a restraining power “Church, body of Christ”
I don't see where in that passage it says "the Body of Christ" must be removed in order to expose the man of sin. Maybe it's my translation. Post yours if you wish.
Here’s another indication of two separate events:
The Gospels say Jesus Christ returns to the earth and conquers it, and the people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, separating the sheep from the goats.
The event described here is different in nature then what’s described in 1 Thess 4:15-18. If it’s the same event, there wouldn’t be any sheep left on earth, only goats since the sheep have already been taken to the air to meet the Lord.
I don't see how this excludes the point I made earlier, considering also the fact that 1 Thess 4 doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility that Jesus may do something else before He raises the dead. Again, 1 Thess 4 doesn't say the *only* thing He will do is raise the dead, then assume all believers bodily into Heaven.
There certainly ARE Catholics who have decided that they will believe in some stuff and won't believe in other stuff...but there is no disagreement or uncertainly on what our Catholic Church believes and teaches. The Catholic catechism has our entire faith in it--has it all.
However, you very well may have been speaking with Catholics who are NOT versed in their faith at all. With THEM you will definitely have disagreements and uncertainly. It's like speaking with some of the 20,000-30,000+ different Protestant denominations....talk about disagreement and uncertainty.
It must be difficult for some people to see how fractured Christianity is (It's sad for me to see.): ONE Catholic Church and 25,000 (Give or take) different Protestant denominations...talk about disagreement and uncertainty.
I agree with much of what you say, and Salvation, I’ve only been registered a few months, so please pardon a highjack rather than a new thread, but Daniell212, could you provide early citations for the papal sanctions for torture.
I have Damasus about 383 AD, against a Spanish bishop Priscillian.
The earliest biblical justification for force against Christians I’ve seen is Augustine, bishop of Hippo, about 400 AD, citing Luke 14:23, which is a parable concerning compelling probable unbelievers.
Thanks for your help.
So tell me then. Do faithful Christians have to experience the wrath of God during the Tribulation? If they do, would you please show me from scripture where that has ever happened before.
While I appreciate your sincerity, you completely miss the point of my post, which was directed to a Catholic.
The traditional Catholic teaching is that the final end of man is a "spiritual" paradise and that the material universe G-d created in the beginning will be annihilated. This is related to their belief in a purely "spiritual messiah" (a contradiction in terms) and their rejection of a literal King Messiah who presides over a literal messianic kingdom on this earth, which will at some future point be rejuvenated into "the world to come."
My question was purely rhetorical, demanding a defense of this "spiritualism," not because I was soliciting advice on what to believe.
I never said I know everything about the end times, but since you have nothing else to offer in response to my replies other than a snide remark about perceived ignorance on my part, I'll take it as an unsaid agreement on your part that 1 Thess 4:16 clearly indicates the dead will be raised first, before all believers are "raptured" to Heaven. IOW, the notion of a mysterious whisking away of believers, before the very visible return of Jesus, and raising of the dead, is false.
Thanks for your "charity".
Deception is the ‘tribulation’, Matthew 24:3-6 Mark 13:3-— and Luke 21:7-—— recorded three times for emphasis. Christ NEVER uttered one word about a secret escape for the ‘church’, because He fully expects some to be delivered up to fulfill the prophecy of Joel the Prophet that Peter explains in Acts 2:16. Paul was only explaining where the ‘dead’ in the flesh are not an instruction about those getting left behind.
Christ's commanded Christians in Mark 13:35 “Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at the even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
Nothing there about a quick time ticket out of here, because this earth belongs to the Heavenly Father and as it is Written He intends at His appointed time to clean house.
Only problem is that far too many people think they are going to escape to the mountains.
Those who live in rural areas with survivalist leanings already frequently take the view of denying access to anything in their domain except for locals or immediate family.
Logistics will change.
The best solution is to prepare in peacetime how to behave in adversity. Build the society we want now, today, in our own communities. Build it upon faith in Christ and witnessing to others.
Besides, God has a plan for each of us. He will place us where He wants us at the right place and time.
You sure were sure in post 13 however weren’t you. >> IOW, the notion of a mysterious whisking away of believers, before the very visible return of Jesus, and raising of the dead, is false.<<
Wrong! Those who are faithful believers will be ruptured to heaven prior to a seven year tribulation at the end of which Christ will return to the earth, which He doesn’t do at the rapture, to defeat Satan and the armies that come against Israel in the battle of Armageddon.
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