Skip to comments.People on Other Worlds
Posted on 04/09/2012 10:05:05 PM PDT by NorthernCrunchyCon
Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them, and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, celestial world. 8 Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of all that he had, continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posteritythe same as their Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on.
(Excerpt) Read more at lds.org ...
Ah yes, LDS/LSD foolery. God had to earn the attributes of godhood, according to the founders of LDS inc. ... And Milt Rominy (rhymes with hominy, the corn product) believes this so much that he places millions of dollars in the org’s hands!
Recently, I have noticed that Mormon apologists for Mitt are avoiding, re-directing and in some cases denying Mormon belief in eternal progression. So I was a little surprised to find the above posted to LDS.org
Well, that makes sense. By the way, who then created god?
That's fine that people on other worlds are far enough along to be gods(?) compared to us -- I guess. I did not read the article.
I want to know who created the electromagnetic waves (I think light waves and all are called). It is from them that all that we know are made.
Whoever created those electromagnetic waves.. now there is GOD! Some say that all matter including us are holograms.
It’s turtles the whole way down!
Say what? What a vivid imagination that author had! O man...you have to be a bit of a fool to stay for long in that religion.
Wow, more superb detective work! An unwholesome negative obsession proceeds predictably.
From the article: Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them..
Do you all realize what the Mormon church is saying here? God the Father, they conclude, was a "sinner." I mean, why else, would God the Father and the beings of His world need a "Savior" -- unless He was deemed a "sinner."
Utter Mormonistic blasphemy!
When Mormon leaders' comments along these lines are scanned, we can tell that the Mormon god is distinct from THE God of the Bible...
Similar comments from this vein:
LDS "Apostle" Bruce McConkie wrote: "The Father is a glorified, perfected resurrected, exalted man who worked out his own salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pg. 64).
As somebody once pointed out...Notice McConkie's use of the word "resurrected" and the phrase, "worked out his salvation." Only those who die can be resurrected, and only those who are lost need salvation.
Mormon leaders have taught that Heavenly Father needed "salvation!" And, since death came due to sin (either your own, or in Jesus' case, someone else's), whose sin caused Heavenly Father to die, Mormons? Whose sin was around that prompted his death? His own?
Also, please note another aspect of this Lds "apostle's" claim: He said Heavenly Father is a "perfected...exalted man." Interesting. Why did He say "perfected" -- vs. "perfect? This Lds "apostle" claimed Heavenly Father needed a spiritual makeover and needed to be perfectED!!!
(I guess that shows you what kind of sinner-saved god Mormons REALLY embrace!!!)
What other Lds general authority comment supports the notion that Lds worship a sinner-saved god?
Well, after B.H. Roberts, the next "deep theologian" to fill the ranks of Mormonism was Lds "apostle" James E. Talmage.
Here's how Talmage weighed in on this: "...but though the Son is glorified with the glory of the Father, you can't change the fact that He is the Son of that Father,
and that Father,
the Eternal Father,
the Father of Jesus Christ,
the Father of His spirit
and the Father of His body,
was once a Man,
and has progressed,
not by any favor but by the right of CONQUEST OVER SIN,
and over death,
to His present position of priesthood and power,
of Godship and Godliness,
as the Supreme Being whom we all profess to worship"
(James E. Talmage, Conference Reports, April 1915, p. 123).
So there ya go! Talmage says the Mormon god "progressed...to His present position of...Godship". He got the "godship" job! And how did he manage that? Well he won via a "Conquest over sin"!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and death)
Hmmm...the Mormon elohim was a sinner!!!! (says a prominent Lds "apostle" still repeatedly cited by the Mormon church and by Mormon leaders)
Per the Mormon Journal of Discourses: "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is" (Lds "apostle" Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses 1:123).
So. Mormon leaders have stated that Elohim (God the Father), as a mortal on some distant planet similar to Earth, went through the same struggles as present-day humans in order to obtain his Godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Orson Hyde, "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are," HYDE is claiming GOD (our Heavenly Father) was mortal like we are. To be consistent, HYDE is claiming mortality for GOD, so it would have to include "a sinful nature".
Well, again, we know from history that mortality was provoked by things having to do with a tree. In the book of Genesis, it was rebellion (sin) by picking fruit from a forbidden tree. And for Jesus, it was donning a tree (the cross) to pay for the fruit of Adam & Eve's sin passed down throughout mankind. So sin was linked to mortality somehow -- either thru direct sin or indirectly taking on the sin of others.
So, again, if the Mormon elohim was mortal, why? Was it his sin -- or that of another?
Other Lds leaders even elaborated a bit beyond that: "The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, 'knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings' of mortality?" (Brigham Young, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, p. 34, brackets in original)
So Brigham claimed the Mormon god knows all about the "toils & sufferings" of mortality from firsthand experience!!!
And another Lds "apostle," Orson Whitney, emphasized that "Mormonism teaches that God was once just like ourselves; that the eternal part of Him was enshrined in mortal flesh, subject to mortal ills and earthly pains and toils." (Orson F. Whitney, May 6, 1892, Collected Discourses 3:45)
So perhaps the "best" way for us to describe the Mormon god, per their "apostles," is to first ask Mormons to describe themselves, since Whitney says he "was once JUST LIKE OURSELVES!" That not only includes mortal flesh, but mortal ills. (And guess what prompted mortal ills?) That's right, sin.
Finally, consider what two other Lds "apostles" claimed:
"God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degress of advancement" (John A. Witdsoe, Rational Theololgy, 1915, p. 61)
And: "Gods, angels, and men are all of one species, one race, one great family, widely diffused among the planetary systems as colonies, kingdoms, nations, etc." (Parley P. Pratt, The Key to the Science of Theology, 1978, p. 21)
Parley P. Pratt, btw, is Mitt Romney's G-G grandfather! (And Romney says he is sticking to the "faith of his fathers!")
So...if ya wanna know the gods of Mitt Romney & his fellow Mormons...well...if you saw aliens from another planet, and one said they were humanoid just like us, and another said, "Yeah, I'm humanoid, too. But I'm also divine." Well, there's your Mormon master race! Aliens from heavens, Mormons all of them, some claiming to be man-made gods, and others claiming to be future man-made gods.
The Mormon "apostles" -- the entire bunch -- are whacko heretics!
At what point in Mormonology was the "first cause". How, and WHO, started it all from nothing? If Jesus is not Almighty God incarnate, in the flesh, then why was it prophesied he would be? Why did Jesus claim he was the one? At what point does Mormonism claim ALL the worlds began? There are a great many questions that LOSE their answers if Mormonism is true, are you prepared to provide the alternate answers?
Finally, are you here to convince everybody that Mitt Romney is "just a normal Christian"?
This Mormon concept also of multiple saviors was consistent with what Brigham Young taught a full century prior to this article being written in the official LDS mag:
Brigham Young: "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870)
Dunno if you’d care about this since it’s not aviation related.
On the other small hand, there’s one thing I could agree with Mormons on: mathematically speaking (and my math is pretty terrible), we cannot be alone in the universe. There’s probably over a trillion planets out there, and odds are we aren’t the only life.
We don’t seem to have detected RF transmissions from these other worlds.
Of course if they have detected ours, most of what they will detect is ‘meat noises’, the sound of air as meat blows the air through holes, or images of the meat doing various things.
Some forms of life may just be too disgusting to contemplate, and a truly civilized people would not want to have a conversation with such a rude and crude form of life.
By the way, who then created god? (Dsrtsage, post #4)
Ok so God had a father and I'd suppose that His Father had a Father too. So how far back into eternity does this go? And what happened to the Father's Father? [Guitarplayer1953, post #8]
[Excellent Q, btw, re: "what happened to the Father's Father?"]
At what point in Mormonology was the "first cause". How, and WHO, started it all from nothing? [boatbums, post #12]
Let us "venture" into the deep Occultic "gospel" of Joseph Smith as he wove his fanciful narrative on this:
Smith excerpt #1:
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Whatever Lds lamely claim about Smith's worldview of time as it pertains to the gods, we know Smith believed in a "beginning" that was operative before the Mormon plan to the create this world. [My question pertaining to this quote -- to add to the other Qs asked above -- is, who's the head of the Gods here? Do Mormons worship him? (If not, why not?)]
Smith excerpt #2:
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
According to Smith's worldview, "the heads of the Gods appointed one God for us." [Why, how nice, Mormons: You worship a god chosen by a bureaucracy at a committee meeting!]
So tell us, Mormons...this "god" who was chosen. Here, Smith is making a BIG deal about Eloheim=plurality of gods. Yet, Smith doesn't go on and say that "the heads of the Gods appointed a godhead for us." He very specifically says these heads of Gods appointed "ONE GOD" for us. I mean, what, Lds? Some of you pretend to be Mormon apologists & yet you can't answer this? Don't they teach this in Seminary or Institute or Sunday School classes? If not, why not?]
Conclusion: Whatever "time frame" or eternity frame Mormons want to buy into, only ONE GOD was chosen by a plurality of gods. It doesn't say a plurality of gods was chosen by a plurality of gods. Therefore, at that earth-making decision, no Mormon godhead existed!!! Apparently, that developed "later."
Smith excerpt #3: I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
Again, whatever Mormons want to say is the Alpha point...Smith says the Mormon god was a man. That he "was once as we are now." We already know from the above quote that the godhead came even after the Mormon god was appointed. Certainly, the Mormon god was no "godhead" as a boy wonder.
Smith excerpt #4: I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning tghe Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
Do you understand, Mormons, the magnitude of what's being said here? First, Smith said there's no end to one intelligence having been above another -- the teaching of infinite regression of gods. Then Smith is claiming that Jesus had a grandpa and great-grandpa: [Note after the first elipse below, no content has been removed]
...John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ
had a Father, [Jesus' grandpa on His Father's side]
you may suppose that He had a Father also. [Jesus' great-grandpa on His Father's side]
Finally, Smith claims that God the Father also laid down His life in some sort of redemptive way. Which means whatever "time" you want to leave undefined, DU, apparently God the Father had time enough to live as a man and die as a man for some whole other world.
Apostle Pratt showing us what he learned from either Smith or from the Mormon god:
We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father;
and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father,
and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds,
and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first, when revelation informs him that God's works are without beginning? (Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132, 1853)
Ah, wearied Mormon minds, says the G-G grandfather of Mitt Romney. (And some want "weary mind" squared -- Mitt Romney -- to become THE leader of the free world???)
Yes, the demons think they can play down their own disobedience to Heavenly Father in the Heavenly paradise by playing down Eve's disobedience to Heavenly Father in the earthly paradise.
Mormons have the absolute demonic -- and wacky -- understanding that the world's evils were something the Mormon god wanted man to do:
The Lds church in one of its priesthood manuals calls the Fall a "Great Blessing" while one of its general authorities, "apostle" Dallin Oaks, wrote: "Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve's act and honor her with wisdom and courage in the great episode called the Fall." ("The Choice that Began Mortality" Liahona, 2002)
Only in Mormonism are wars, murders, hate, idolatry, racism, rape, incest, sexual abuse, lust, theft, and other consequences of the fall a blessing to be "celebrated."
> Finally, are you here to convince everybody that Mitt Romney is “just a normal Christian”?
Quite the opposite. As a Christian, I am very concerned with the sharply rising attacks on orthodox Christianity being perpetuated by Mormon apologists online and in the media.
Unfortunately, many of us have become so distracted by the cultural war being waged by marxists who would deny the existance of God, that we’ve been blindsided by this more ancient lie of the serpent that we can become gods.
Thus I dare repeat the rallying cry of the Archangel Micheal when he cast Lucifer from Heaven: “But who is like God?”
Please post some Mormon miracles, signs of God’s presence
in Mormonism. Second time I’ve requested. Show science
has investigated them to document. Thanks NCC.
Christianity has three major signs of the presence of
of God, the miraculous, besides the millions of personal
prayers said in a person’s head (non-verbal) that have been answered.
The Shroud of Turin
The Tilma of Guadalupe
Padre Pio bore the wounds of Christ for fifty years
So Romney is going to the White House to receive alien visitors from outer space, huh?
(And how exactly will he be able to discern them from false angels? Oh yeah, a handshake, per Mormon "scripture":)
Don't believe me? Read my post #45 here: They See Dead People?
Talk about eerie Mormonism!!!
“Thus I dare repeat the rallying cry of the Archangel Micheal when he cast Lucifer from Heaven: But who is like God?
Exactly. How can God guide Romney if he were to become
President? He can’t, that’s what is scary. Another four
years of no “grace.”
An act of love would be to pray for the conversion of Romney
Now do y'all see why Mormonism is so readily compared to Scientology?
L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.
According to Scientology, when a person dies or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)
Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts.
At: LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison ...Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...#6 mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."
If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.
Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.
* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.
Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)
BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?
Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect
Excellent, excellent discernment...Please cut & paste for saving...and repost frequently on numerous threads!
> Please post some Mormon miracles, signs of Gods presence
> in Mormonism. Second time Ive requested. Show science
> has investigated them to document. Thanks NCC.
Apologies for not responding to your first request. I must have missed it. That being said, I have not come across any evidence of God’s presence or the miraculous in Mormonism. But then again, I’m neither a Mormon, an apologist for Mormonism, nor someone who believes the Book of Mormon was inspired by God. So I would advise you to check with the Mormons for the type of information you seek.
> Christianity has three major signs of the presence of
> of God, the miraculous...
Don’t forget the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, witnessed by 72,000 people (including many skeptics) and reported in reputable non-religious publications world-wide.
However, even these miracles pale in comparison to the Eucharistic miracles worldwide in which consecrated hosts lose the accidents of bread prior to consumption.
> How can God guide Romney if he were to become President?
> He cant, thats what is scary.
Of similar concern for me is the following: Which god would Romney be invoking every time he says “God bless America”?
> Another four years of no grace.
I fear it would be more like 16. Eight years of Romney followed by another eight years of a Democrat in the White House as punishment for the eight years of Romney.
> An act of love would be to pray for the conversion of
> Romney and Obama.
Ditto. And fasting too.
“However, even these miracles pale in comparison to the Eucharistic miracles”...
~ ~ ~
Hi, thanks, so sorry, clicked on the wrong post. I meant to ask a Mormon here on the forum for their miracles. I bet they don’t have a one documented, tested by science.
NorthernCrunchyCon and all,
listen to this “scientist” explain the multiple miracles
in this Eucharistic miracle in our time. Amazing!
Ahh c’mon now, what’s wrong with this? Everyone ends up being a god, and running their own planet somewhere out in the cosmos, I just want to know if Planet Romney (ruled over benevolently by Emperor George) requires everyone to drive a Nash-Rambler? As long as I don’t have to drive an accursed Gremlin or a ‘Pacer’, I suppose I could deal with it.
BEAM ME TO PLANET ROMNEY! (just kidding, JUST kidding! ;)
No problemo. Stay tuned to the Religious Forum, I just stumbled across another smoking gun from FAIR - the top Mormon apologetics website.
> how nice, you commented on everything in my reply NCC.
I must try harder to do the same, sometimes, sorry, I fail to reply to the posts and comments directed to me.
“Stay tuned to the Religious Forum, I just stumbled across another smoking gun from FAIR - the top Mormon apologetics website.”
~ ~ ~
I shall. Heaven is watching this race, They all (God included) do not want another non-Christian as President.
Free will, it’s not always a gift (humor) so we must pray and
Good thing, cause there isn't a spoon.
As normal a Christian as B Wacky Insane0 is!
I sadly believe they are doomed like pharaoh, unable to steer their own heart.
“I sadly believe they are doomed like pharaoh, unable to steer their own heart.”
~ ~ ~
You think about everyone, at one time, they were someone’s sweet innocent child. What in the world happens??!!!
I was think about Obama, he sent (it’s not much) 26 million
to Sudan to help with the tragic happenings there. Maybe, it will help him, love covers many sins. Still....he’s
Mr. infanticide, the Herod of our time.
Hey.....even Islam has its “scholars”. Just goes to show ya that the title “scholar” means about as much any more as........well, “Nobel Peace Prize Winner”.
No. Not true. Not truth. A lie from the pit of hell and Satan himself.
God himself said “I am that I am.” Not I was once like you. He BECAME like us, that we might become AS Him. We will not ever BE Him.
As the famous quote goes: “you lie”
Seems sort of like scientology to me.
There is no life out there
Pss 115:16 The heaven, [even] the heavens, [are] the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Mr. Romney, I've been wondering...
BTW, it's TATWD
Beat me to it!
Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are consider unofficial by said officials.At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially.This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness.Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial.This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used here by haters cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site elsewhere.Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially.
Doesn't the very word "universe" mean all or everything? How can there be more than one "all" or "everything"?
Origin: 132575; Middle English < Old French univers < Latin ūniversum, noun use of neuter of ūniversus entire, all, literally, turned into one, equivalent to ūni- uni- + versus (past participle of vertere to turn)
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Where else COULD they go; after getting themselves self banned from FR?