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Graven Images: Altering the Commandments?
CNA ^ | A Catholic Response, Inc.

Posted on 04/15/2012 7:12:32 AM PDT by GonzoII

Graven Images: Altering the Commandments?

And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent... Numbers 21:8-9

Recently we received an 80-page booklet entitled "What's Behind The New World Order?" It can be traced back to the writings of Ellen G. White, foundress of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. According to this booklet, the Catholic Church is behind the New World Order. The booklet claims that this is true, since the Church is the beast of Revelation (Rev. 17). It attempts to prove this claim by exposing the "marks of the beast." Due to limited space, only one charge will be considered. This is a common charge used against the Catholic Church.

According to this booklet, one "mark of the beast" is the alteration of God's Commandments. The booklet claims that the Catholic Church dropped the "Second Commandment" which forbids "graven images", i.e. statues. Allegedly the Catholic Church condones statue worship.

Now one version of the Ten Commandments can be found in the fifth chapter of the Book of Deuteronomy (also Exodus 20). Comparing Deut. 5:6-21 in a Catholic Bible with that found in a Protestant Bible reveals no essential differences. A few words may differ but that is due to differing translations. The major difference is not content but how Catholics and Protestants traditionally divide up and number these Commandments. Unfortunately the Bible lumps the Ten Commandments all together without division or numbering. (The verse numbers are no help since they were added by Bible scholars many centuries after Christ.)

Traditionally Catholics consider Deut. 5:6-10 as the First Commandment, verse 11 as the Second Commandment, verses 12-15 as the Third Commandment and so on. Verse 21 is split up into the Ninth and Tenth Commandments - distinguishing the desire (lust) to commit adultery from the desire (greed) to steal. This division scheme was advocated by St. Augustine in his writings on Exodus. Traditionally Protestants consider Deut. 5:6-7 as the First Commandment, verses 8-10 as the Second Commandment, verse 11 as the Third Commandment and so on. Verse 21 is kept together as the Tenth Commandment.

According to the RSV Bible and Catholic Tradition, the First Commandment is:

(6)I am the LORD your God,...(7)You shall have no other gods before me. (8)You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; (9)you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (10)but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [Deut. 5:6-10; RSV]

Verse 7 forbids the worship of other gods, while verses 8-9 forbid the making of graven (carved) images that would be worshipped as gods, i.e. idols. Now worshipping statues with divine honor is one way of worshipping other gods. Verse 7 is a general statement of the First Commandment, while verses 8-9 give a specific case of this Commandment. Verses 9-10 present the punishments and rewards that are associated with these Commandments.

By combining together Deut. 5:6-10 into one Commandment, the Catholic Church is accused of altering the Commandments and covering up God's command forbidding graven images. Suspicions are further fueled when Catholic books only present the general form of the Commandment, Deut. 5:7, in order to expedite memorization. Now one must ask the question: "Does God forbid the making of statues, or does He condemn the worship of statues?" If God condemns the divine worship of statues, then the Catholic division scheme is justified since these images would be "other gods before" Him. A separate Commandment based on Deut. 5:8-10 would be redundant.

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

Now it is true that centuries later King Hezekiah destroyed it; however, this action was done because the people worshipped it as a god (2 Kings 18:4). In the Gospel, Jesus compared Himself to the bronze serpent (John 3:14). Continuing in the Old Testament, the inner sanctuary of the Temple contained two large statues of angels according to 1 Kings 6:23-28. In the following verses, Solomon also had the walls of the Temple decorated with carved images of angels, palm trees and flowers (1 Kings 6:29ff). During the Babylonian Captivity, Ezekiel had a vision from God about the design of the new Temple. According to Ezekiel 41:17-25, this new Temple contained graven images of angels and palm trees. These passages in the Bible indicate that God does not forbid the making of statues. If God truly condemned the making of graven images in the "Second Commandment", then He must have changed His mind later in the Old Testament.

The Catholic Church during the Council of Trent (1545-1563) issued a clear statement concerning images and statues. According to the 25th Session of this General Council:

The images of Christ and of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the saints are to be had and retained particularly in churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them on account of which they are to be worshipped, or that anything is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old by the Gentiles, who placed their hopes in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which these images represent; so that we through the images which we kiss...or bend the knee, adore Christ and venerate the saints, whom they represent. [The Canons & Decrees of the Council of Trent (TAN Books, 1978) p. 215-6]

The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

On a related issue, some Christians may object to the veneration of images of the saints since they believe that honor should be directed towards God alone and not towards Mary or the saints (1 Tim. 1:17). This objection arises from a confusion between divine honor (adoration - supreme honor proper only for God) and respectful honor proper for men. According to the Bible, the people of God bowed down before King David to show him honor (2 Sam. 24:20; 1 Chron. 29:20; 21:21). Obadiah in 1 Kings 18:7 fell prostrate before Elijah showing him reverence for being a prophet of God. In the Ten Commandments, we are told to honor our mother and father (Deut. 5:16). Even Jesus defended and obeyed this Commandment (Mark 7:9-13; Luke 2:51). At least for Mary, our honor to her is in imitation of Jesus, her Son (1 Cor. 11:1). The Church allows for the veneration of the saints and their images as long as it remains honor proper for men. It is good to honor the saints for their love and trust in God (Matt. 22:31-32; Heb. 11:1-12:1).

The Catholic Church has not altered the Ten Commandments of God. The Church has not dropped the "Second Commandment" as the booklet alleges. The Catholic numbering scheme may differ with the Protestant numbering scheme, but this is due to a difference in tradition and not an alteration of God's Commandments. Unfortunately the Bible is not clear on how to divide or number the Ten Commandments. If this difference is scandalous, it would be interesting to know what the author of the booklet thought of Jesus Christ when He reduced God's Commandments to the Two Great Commandments in Matt. 22:36-40.

Finally the Church strictly condemns the adoration (divine worship) of statues, images or even the saints, since this is idolatry and in direct violation of the First Commandment. For Christians a crucifix should not be considered merely as a statue of Jesus hanging on a cross, but as a reminder of the high cost of our salvation as well as His words to us:

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." [Mark 8:34]

Printed with permission from A Catholic Response, Inc.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.
1 posted on 04/15/2012 7:12:39 AM PDT by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

imho . . .

The evidence is abundantly clear that there are at least 2 points of hideous nonsense in the article:

1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images

to suit their own power mongering goals and methods.

Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts.


2 posted on 04/15/2012 7:32:18 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

I find it hard to believe that I agree with you.

The Ten Commandments are not to be taken lightly nor edited. God’s proscription that nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible still stands and it’s a strong one.

And lest anyone forget, the Ten Commandments are but a start; I forget the actual number but God’s total commandments number over 600.


3 posted on 04/15/2012 7:51:37 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Quix
1. Ellen G White is wholesale wrong about the Mark of the Beast. The best candidate at this point is the ID chip implant which . . . per the design of the elite controllers . . . will literally fulfill the prophecy—without which, citizens will be unable to buy or sell.

I'll defer until more evidence shows just what the "mark" is. It may prove to be ObamaCare® if that is a requirement.

2. The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images to suit their own power mongering goals and methods. Facts are facts and rants on either side of the facts don’t tend to alter the facts. Agreed.

4 posted on 04/15/2012 7:55:05 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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this is the best you anti catholics can do? simply declare the catholic church did it, and provide nothing to substantiate it or bring up facts to refute the actual article itself?

lame.


5 posted on 04/15/2012 8:00:42 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: GonzoII

****According to this booklet, one “mark of the beast” is the alteration of God’s Commandments.****

The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday. They “proved” it by one of the most convoluted twisting of scriptures I have ever seen.


6 posted on 04/15/2012 8:10:59 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: GonzoII

***The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.***

The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line. About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue.


7 posted on 04/15/2012 8:18:39 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: GonzoII
The Church does NOT compel her members to kneel or pray before images. No one is allowed by the Church to pray to images since they have no ears to hear or power to help us. The Church allows for the veneration of images as long as the honor is directed towards Christ and His saints.

Completely untrue...We watch your popes kneel and pray to statues far too often on tv...

That may be an inconvenient truth for you guys but live with it...You're not fooling anyone but yourselves...

And this contradicts every Catholic I have ever spoken to...Mary and the saints DO hear you and you even post bogus reference scripture out of Revelation to prove it...

Now one must ask the question: "Does God forbid the making of statues, or does He condemn the worship of statues?" If God condemns the divine worship of statues, then the Catholic division scheme is justified since these images would be "other gods before" Him. A separate Commandment based on Deut. 5:8-10 would be redundant.

And one must answer that those who worship the statues are not necessarily the ones who made the statues...

You are not to make a statue of Mary in a bath tub for your front yard...And you are not to bow and pray to a statue of Mary, anywhere...

Now if God simply forbids the making of graven images, then there are problems elsewhere in the Bible. First, in Exodus 25:18-21, God commands Moses to make two statues of angels (cherubim) for the top of the Ark of the Covenant. Later in Numbers 21:8-9, God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent, so that the people who were bitten by snakes could look upon it and be healed.

Wrong again...When God says to do something for him, you do it...When he says don't do it for you, you don't do it...You guys can thumb your noses at God and tell him that if he can tell you to do it for him, you can decide for yourselves to do it for you...But I certainly would advise against it...

The Church allows for the veneration of the saints and their images as long as it remains honor proper for men.Really??? Do men answer prayers for you and perform miracles??? And then on the other side of your mouths you claim that this veneration to Mary is 'special' veneration apart from those of your other 'special' veneration for those your religion has claimed are special saints who are apart from the normal Catholic layman...

At least for Mary, our honor to her is in imitation of Jesus, her Son

How pitiful...Jesus never bowed to or insinuated or intimated that his mother was the Queen of Heaven...He never even called her Mother...He called her woman...

it would be interesting to know what the author of the booklet thought of Jesus Christ when He reduced God's Commandments to the Two Great Commandments in Matt. 22:36-40.Jesus did not reduce the Commandments...He gave two commandments which encompasses and fulfills ALL of the Commandments...

If you violate ANY of those Commandments, you violate the two commandments that Jesus gave...

8 posted on 04/15/2012 8:43:07 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
The SDA used to claim that “the mark of the beast” was worshiping on Sunday.

What day did God rest after Creation? What day did Moses keep? What day did Jesus and the disciples keep? Which of Gods commandments starts with the words "Remember" to indicate people would either forget or it would be changed? I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark but the forced actions to worship on a particular day or way or to a particular deity could very easily be the Mark.

9 posted on 04/15/2012 8:48:03 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: GonzoII

The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....


10 posted on 04/15/2012 9:33:19 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
"About 45 years ago a bishop in Spain stopped the veneration of a solid gold statue of Mary as he concluded the people had crossed that line and were then worshiping the statue."

Or maybe showing excessive and immature public piety which can be scandalous to the weak.

11 posted on 04/15/2012 9:49:43 AM PDT by GonzoII (Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea...Quare tristis es anima mea?)
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To: GonzoII

I don’t know why people insist on confusing the New testament with the Old testament. Jews might be following the Old testament to play it safe. In the end, your sins now can be forgiven.


12 posted on 04/15/2012 10:05:42 AM PDT by Razzz42
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To: onedoug

Let me add to your list:
**The worship of money, the “sacrament” of abortion, a college “education”, the HOPE of the king....**

The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.


13 posted on 04/15/2012 10:19:06 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
The biggest house, the newest car, the highest paying job, addictions to alcohol, drugs, pron — these also become gods to people.

Why did you include pron? People need pron. It is vital to a persons . . . wait a minute, what is pron?

14 posted on 04/15/2012 10:39:39 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: All; GonzoII
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What it really comes down to in an essence of thought. This protest declares God can make a law but not obey it. Just amazing.

He is above even his own laws. Sorry that does not make sense. I do not care whatever theology "words" you come up with in a discussion. I have read this old hat argument. God is using this as a visual aid for believers in these scriptures. Even God knew about " A picture/image speaks a thousand words. Also in any language too. When people from other languages see it they can talk in the own language about it. This is one of many reasons the church uses images.

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It is an inanimate object. He put it there for honor at times. So if you have an image of a wedding to honor you are just as guilty too according to the absolutely nooooo images crowd.

I walk into some churches with stained glass windows with biblical stories. The baptism of Christ, His birth and all the Passion of Christ. I know in the Holy Spirit within me confirming the beauty of it as I honor God.

In my book with accurate thinking you would be doing idolatry by sacrificing to the image. I have a picture of my mother. I honor her not worship her like the Good book also says "Honor your Mother or Father."

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Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

15 posted on 04/15/2012 10:45:40 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: BipolarBob

Thanks for the corrections...Fingers move too quickly sometime.

porn

I think you realized what I meant.

Have a blessed Sunday — and let me know when the Cross is removed (because this thread) from your church.


16 posted on 04/15/2012 10:47:12 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
I think you realized what I meant.

Well at first I didn't and about the time I hit post I thought you could've meant pornography. a little too late

17 posted on 04/15/2012 10:53:35 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: BipolarBob

***I doubt Sunday keeping is the Mark ****

I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine, but some of the independent SDA missionaries used to preach it many years ago.


18 posted on 04/15/2012 11:20:50 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I don’t believe this is official SDA doctrine

I have no idea as I broke from them many years ago. My reading of the Bible is the Mark will be an enforced sign of obedience. The hand or forehead would be symbolic of action (hand) and the forehead would be symbolic of how you think. In other words people will be forced to change how they think and what they do in a way contrary to Gods ways. You see evidence of that now with television. We are being told to be "tolerant" of homosexuality (Real meaning is acceptance). The anti "Stand your Ground" crowd and "guns are evil" that are coming out now are trying to change how people feel about self defense of their home and family. The division of mans law and Gods Law should always be examined to see if Caesar is claiming that which is Gods alone to direct.

19 posted on 04/15/2012 11:42:51 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
The line between veneration of what a statue represents, and worship of the statue is a very thin line

Very thin indeed! That's why I have problems with kneeling in front of a statue, lighting candles and praying. I used to do all these things growing up Catholic in Spain. I don't do it any longer.

Some here are arguing that veneration has nothing to do with "trust is to be reposed in images" to use the RCC's words.

Have you ever put an image of St. Christopher in your car, to keep you safe? My parents would not start the car without such an image.

Have you ever knelt in front of a statue of St. Anthony to ask for help finding something important you misplaced? A few years ago I was teaching at a Catholic HS here, in the US, when the chemistry tests the students had taken earlier that day misteriously "disappeared" from my desk. The headmistress wanted me to go to the chapel and pray in front of a statue of St. Anthony, asking him for help finding the papers.

Growing up in Spain I went to quite a few villages when they were taking the statue of the patron saint in procession, asking him or her to send rain. A few times they were asking for intercession, most times they were asking for the saint to provide the rain.

I could keep on going, but you get the idea!

20 posted on 04/15/2012 12:07:45 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: GonzoII

“Thus you have made the commandments of God of none effect by your traditions.” - Matthew 15:6


21 posted on 04/15/2012 12:23:58 PM PDT by RoadTest (There is one god, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.)
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To: Quix
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." Deuteronomy 12:32

"...if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ." Galatians 1:9-10

"For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it!" 2 Corinthians 11:4 [I.e. don't tolerate heresy]

"Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6

"If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
22 posted on 04/15/2012 1:47:35 PM PDT by crosshairs (As long as there is evil, "Coexist" is impossible.)
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To: RoadTest; GonzoII
"Thus you have made the commandments of God of none effect by your traditions.” - Matthew 15:6"

Can you explain if this passage is referring to "paradosis" or "kerygma" and how that difference might reflect on the validity of the criticism of the Catholic Church?

23 posted on 04/15/2012 2:11:24 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law
Can you explain if this passage is referring to "paradosis" or "kerygma" and how that difference might reflect on the validity of the criticism of the Catholic Church?

As a Catholic, do you fully trust that Jesus' sacrifice atoned all your sins, past, present, and future? Or do you believe you must add to it in order to save yourself? If you must add to it, are you prepared to be judged according to law (which by the way, no human can pass), rather than being saved by God's grace?
24 posted on 04/15/2012 2:30:40 PM PDT by crosshairs (As long as there is evil, "Coexist" is impossible.)
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To: Former Fetus
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Any real Catholic knows we ask for Prayerss from the saints. I have asked Prayers from Saint Benedict with Christ. Instaneous healings. In Christ through him in Him and the unity of the Holy Spirit we are asking prayer from the Heavenly Host with Jesus.

When we see chickens sacrificed then I will believe you.

25 posted on 04/15/2012 2:49:37 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: BipolarBob
The Roman Catholic Magisterical DID alter the Written Word of God’s 10 commandments about graven images to suit their own power mongering goals and methods. Facts are facts and rants ... don’t tend to alter the facts.

Good point.

Tell me, why do you then issue rants whose contents are blatant falsehoods (like the above)?

By the way, is, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" still in your list of the ten commandments? I ask because you just violated that commandment above.

26 posted on 04/15/2012 2:51:23 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: crosshairs
As a Catholic, do you fully trust that Jesus' sacrifice atoned all your sins, past, present, and future?

Catholics believe that the merits of the Atonement are infinite.

However, that does not excuse the Christian from the obligation to live as what he is, a son of God, by adoption, through grace. Consistent with that sonship, and enabled by grace, he repents and asks pardon of his sins from his heavenly Father. (cf the parable of the Prodigal Son)

This repentance is ongoing throughout life, just as sinning is ongoing throughout life. It is not a one-time event that one allows one to "trust in Christ" and then sin without consequence forever after.

Or do you believe you must add to it in order to save yourself?

Nobody can save themselves. But by a sufficiently stiff-necked and unrepentant heart, one can certainly damn himself. That's simply a matter of God giving the reprobate what she or he wants, that's all. God won't save you against your will.

27 posted on 04/15/2012 2:57:53 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: crosshairs
It is a state of Grace. Just look 1john1. We maintain it. Notice John talks about himself.

This is addressed to Christians. We have to live the life.

We have to confess our sins to God as Christians though Jesus.

John 1:

5 “This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 IF we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

verse 7 “shows IF WE KEEP THE WALK THE SON PURIFIES.”

8 IF WE( Christians) claim to be Without Sin, WE DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT in US. 9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”

There are several IF ‘s in this by John The Apostle.

IF is defined as Condition, Requirement Or Stipulation in my Dictionary.

Notice every One of the words IF the true meaning it reads after this word if are presented for true understanding.

Notice Decieve. Deceive equals if We Claim to be with out Sins.

Notice how “we make God a liar” and His Word is Not in Us.

Do Not Be Decieved. Why would The Apostle John write These exact words!

He uses the word “We” meaning he includes himself.

He uses a lot of We’s too. Hmmmm. Do Not Be Deceived!

Jesus I Pray for All to Understand Your Apostle’s Words !

Praise You Jesus Always!

Glory Be To The Father ,Son and Holy Spirit!

Going to Mass! Freeper Cheers!!

28 posted on 04/15/2012 2:58:22 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: BipolarBob; Lx

Thanks for your kind replies.

I’m not much interested in the drawn out back and forths so traditional hereon about such things.

Holy Spirit is well able to affirm what HE will’s in the hearts, minds, spirits of those SERIOUSLY interested in

GOD’S TRUTH on such matters.


29 posted on 04/15/2012 3:08:31 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: raygunfan
this is the best you anti catholics can do? simply declare the catholic church did it, and provide nothing to substantiate it or bring up facts to refute the actual article itself?

lame.

Not lame

AT ALL.

Quite OBVIOUS, actually.

There's no other remotely adequate explanation that fits the historical record or the rather plain linear facts of the documents.

30 posted on 04/15/2012 3:10:41 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: crosshairs

YUP


31 posted on 04/15/2012 3:19:07 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: GonzoII

On my phone, but there are two lists of the 10 commandments. Of interest Lutherans follow the more traditional reading like the Catholics.


32 posted on 04/15/2012 3:25:19 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Quix

A misunderstanding. I was agreeing that it was nonsense. and that rants were unhelpful. I obviously failed to convey that message that I was agreeing with you when I said agreed. My apologies.


33 posted on 04/15/2012 3:46:43 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I did not see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: Iscool
Wrong again...When God says to do something for him, you do it...When he says don't do it for you, you don't do it...You guys can thumb your noses at God and tell him that if he can tell you to do it for him, you can decide for yourselves to do it for you...But I certainly would advise against it...

Short, sweet and to the point. I agree.

You don't get to negotiate with God, well maybe what Abram did with the 50, 40...10 righteous people in Sodom or Gomorrah.

34 posted on 04/15/2012 4:11:12 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Quix

the historical record validates the church, you and your like-minded fellow traveler types, have presented zero verifiable historical to counter it.


35 posted on 04/15/2012 4:14:05 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: BipolarBob

My apology.

I spring boarded off your post without affirming sufficiently clearly that I was agreeing with your post. Sorry on my part.

{{{hugs}}} LOL.

I probably should qualify the agreement, however.

I think that on occasion, rants are informative to some souls . . . probably on both sides.

I don’t automatically think that all rants are evil. LOL.

I just think that ego driven, overly contentious and redundant rants for the 666th time are more than a little unnecessary

at BEST.

Alas, there’s always new lurkers on all sides to possibly learn something from a repeat performance.

Still, relentless repetitions of wearisome blather which takes even possibly authentic Christian brothers and sisters by the throat and batters them back and forth with prickly self-righteousness and arrogance . . .

is not likely to be evidence of the fruit of Holy Spirit—at least not most of the time.

Now that I’ve probably muddied the water more than I intended, I’ll shut-up for the moment. LOL.

Thanks for your kind reply.


36 posted on 04/15/2012 4:16:42 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: johngrace
Any real Catholic knows

LOL! The good nuns must have failed miserably with me. And so did our archbishop, when he personally awarded me for my knowledge of catechism. But you're right, maybe I never was a REAL Catholic. That's why I found Jesus in a Southern Baptist Church!

37 posted on 04/15/2012 4:17:00 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: crosshairs
"As a Catholic...."

Rather than talk past one another I propose we engage in a dialog. First you answer my question and then I'll answer yours:

Can you explain if this passage is referring to "paradosis" or "kerygma" and how that difference might reflect on the validity of the criticism of the Catholic Church?

38 posted on 04/15/2012 4:31:44 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: raygunfan
the historical record validates the church, you and your like-minded fellow traveler types, have presented zero verifiable historical to counter it.

.

Photobucket

Photobucket

.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh

I would guess that most educated folks are keenly aware that

The Jewish copies of the Mosaic Penteteuch existed for centuries before the Roman Catholic magicsterical decided to twist the record into their power mongering schemes a few centuries after Christ.

The RC mangled text version of the 10 Commandments

did NOT EXIST until the RC magicsterical power-mongering manglers got a hold of it and contorted it toward their !!!CONTROL!!! schemes and idolatries.

.

Enough. The evidence is available for all to see. Those who truly seek God's Truth in the matter can, with Holy Spirit's help, ferret it out.

But there's no real ferreting necessary. It's plainly available just by comparing the ancient Jewish text with the mangled RC version.

39 posted on 04/15/2012 4:33:52 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Former Fetus
I do not think you are any way dumb but just wrong. That's all.

If he awarded you. What does that all mean. So they told you Catholics worship saints. Then they awarded for teaching worship of saints. We know that can't be. If he did he was died against Catholic teaching.

Also let me tell you an open secret if you confessed the Nicene Creed and believed it. You had Jesus all along. Whether you know it or not. Just read 1John 4 . Of course if you really believed. All of this confession stems from famous verses of scripture especially 1John4 .

I have personally encounter an occultist who could not declare The Apostles or Nicene Creed after she told me she was a Christian. She could not do it in the personal pronoun. I challenged her she could not declare it with strange manifestations. Honest. Very important to know with all these " New Age" thought going around.

40 posted on 04/15/2012 5:48:36 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: GonzoII
First of all there were 10 commandments so we KNOW that they were numbered somehow by God and Israel:

Exo_34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

So they were numbered, but how?

Wikipedia cites the following:

The two texts commonly known as the Ten Commandments are given in two books of the Bible: Exodus 20:1–17 and Deuteronomy 5:4–21.
Religious groups use one of three historical divisions of Exodus 20:1–17 into ten parts[14] tabulated below:

Phi. The Philonic division is the oldest, from the writings of Philo and Josephus (first century), which labels verse 3 as number 1, verses 4–6 as number 2, and so on. Groups that generally follow this scheme include Hellenistic Jews, Greek Orthodox and Protestants except Lutherans. Most representations of the commandments include the prologue of verse 2 as either part of the first commandment or as a preface.[15][16]

Tal. The Talmudic division, from the third-century Jewish Talmud, makes verses 1–2 as the first "saying" or "declaration" (rather than "commandment"), and combines verses 3–6 as number 2.[17]

Aug. The Augustinian division (fifth century) starts with number 2 of the Talmudic division, and makes an extra commandment by dividing the prohibition on coveting into two. Both Roman Catholics and Martin Luther adopted the Augustinian method. Roman Catholics use Deuteronomy by default when quoting the Ten Commandments whereas Luther used the Exodus version.[18]

Since the Philonic division is closest to the time that Jesus Christ lived, it's very likely that he considered this the valid numbering system.

The article attempts to obfuscate the fact that they are using a numbering system that was developed over 500 years after the death of Christ.

41 posted on 04/15/2012 6:15:42 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Natural Law
Can you explain if this passage is referring to "paradosis" or "kerygma" and how that difference might reflect on the validity of the criticism of the Catholic Church?

Frankly, I'm not interested in terms Catholics use to muddy issues and turn everything into their cultish legalistic rules and regulations.
42 posted on 04/15/2012 6:44:22 PM PDT by crosshairs (As long as there is evil, "Coexist" is impossible.)
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To: crosshairs
"Frankly, I'm not interested in terms Catholics use to muddy issues and turn everything into their cultish legalistic rules and regulations."

That is an interesting response. Ideas are the subjective evocation of objective facts and can only be expressed in words and terms. Terms form the basis of statements which in turn form arguments. They are essential to ensure that arguments do not become quarrels.

The use of precise terms accomplishes exactly the opposite of muddying the issues. It illuminates the discussion by ensuring that ideas are clearly articulated and than innuendo and the unintended do not make communication impossible. Since Protestantism places so much emphasis on the written word, it seems that an intentional lack of precision is actually irreligious.

43 posted on 04/15/2012 7:57:21 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: RoadTest

In the context of the article, are you agreeing that the commandment prohibits the making of statues?


44 posted on 04/15/2012 10:52:32 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: johngrace
Nice picks, Johnny.
45 posted on 04/15/2012 11:19:39 PM PDT by GonzoII (Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea...Quare tristis es anima mea?)
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To: GonzoII

Thanks! You wrote Johnny! Lol! I just came back a month ago on vacation with my cousins and my Brothers. Mini family reunion. They were calling me Johnny half the time. I am the youngest in this group who went on the trip. Brought me back to my childhood. Lol! I never hear this as an adult. It has a nice sound.


46 posted on 04/15/2012 11:58:04 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Natural Law; crosshairs

Can you elaborate on paradosis?

I am a litte familiar with the concept in the sense of traditions which, of course, Paul would have have known and lived.


47 posted on 04/16/2012 5:28:34 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR
"Can you elaborate on paradosis?"

Paradosis, in the New Testament context, is a passing on of a tradition. The word is used to refer to oral teachings both positively (3 times) and negatively (5 times).

What we can take from this is that "Tradition" itself is not categorically condemned, but rather what the content and origin of that Tradition is. This will be hotly contested in these threads because the categorical condemnation of Tradition is essential to Sola Scriptura Protestantism.

I also mentioned the word "kerygma" because it is the proclamation of a religious truth. The Church teaches that the paradosis of the New Testament IS kerygma.

48 posted on 04/16/2012 9:37:24 AM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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