Skip to comments.The Apostasy [What Lds believe re: Christians: Label us 'apostates' like Islam calls us 'infidels']
Posted on 04/15/2012 3:02:11 PM PDT by Colofornian
The Church...of Latter-day Saints affirms...there was a falling away...The long night of apostasy lasted well over a millennium. During this period, man-made creeds and practices were substituted for the plan of salvation that Jesus...taught.
C. A universal apostasy occurred...
...an absolute apostasy of the Church... (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 745).
...they put together an incomprehensible God idea (Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 425).
(Excerpt) Read more at institute.lds.org ...
I'm talking about HUNDREDS if not thousands of MSM articles...
...hundreds if not more of blog entries...
...other media-venue coverage (broadcasting)...
So, why has Mitt Romney received a near 100% "cone of silence" -- a near-free pass of what he and his church labels Christian Protestants, Christian Catholics, and Christian Orthodox???
Why was it somehow "relevant" what a Texas pastor believed about Mormonism; but somehow "irrelevant" what Mitt Romney & other Mormon leaders believe about Christianity???
Why? [Well who did the MSM really want to get the GOP nomination, anyhow?...to make it closer to "cakewalk" for Obama?]
So...Where are the articles, the blogs, the broadcasts on Mormonism's "revelation" on what they believe Christian churches to be?
When the Jeffress & other "cult" reference articles broke out in the Fall of 2011, that had to be among the most lopsided MIScoverage of relio-politics I've ever seen!!!
A belief of a Texas pastor that nobody had heard of nationally mattered? But what Romney believed about Christians -- as well as his dominant general authorities ... those who might be tempted to reduce him to a "puppet" in the White House ... what they believed about Christians wasn't even worth one article???
'Tis time for a series of articles to redress this:
This thread excerpt comes from the OFFICIAL Institute Web site of the Lds church, which is what Mormons OFFICIALLY teach to their college students nation-wide.
From official Mormon teachings of its college students: A universal apostasy occurred......an absolute apostasy of the Church... ( [Lds "apostle" James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ
A "Universal" apostasy is a Mormon accusation that the world-wide Christian church -- in its entirety -- "flunked out"...went AWOL...meaning the Mormons are just like radical Islamicists in their claims about Christians...such radical Islamicists label Christians as "infidels."
Mormons -- including Mitt Romney -- obviously want to "inspire" you Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) voters by saying...
Quotes from the Mormon leaders:
If the Savior had come back to earth at the beginning of the fifth century A.D., I doubt whether he would have recognized the Christian Church...Christianity had actually become a composite of...Jewish teachings and rituals; Greek, Roman, and Egyptian pagan philosophies; and pagan religions...The power of godliness was no longer present in the Christian Church. Thus there was a complete falling away from the gospel which had been established by the Son of Man...darkness enveloped the earth.
For over seventeen hundred years on the eastern hemisphere, and for more than fourteen centuries on the western, there appears to have been silence between the heavens and the earth."
So...the Mormon church STILL teaches about other churches:
* Jesus doesn't recognize you
* You've been in total darkness
* Godliness as a power was wholly gone...'cause you "Christians" -- per Mormonism -- were paganized...
* The God of the Christians didn't talk to them for over 1700 years in the Eastern hemisphere...
* The gospel wasn't available anymore...
* And the Christians preached a different God -- one incomprehensible to Mormon leaders...
Hmmm...so this Mormon "prophet" -- one that Mitt Romney treated as HIS "prophet" -- thought that Christians made a different God from the Mormon "god." And earlier in the Web site Mormon teaching, an Lds "apostle" -- Talmage -- is cited...And what distinction did Talmage highlight about the differences in these "gods?"
"We affirm that to deny the materiality of God's person is to deny God; for a thing without parts has no whole, and an immaterial body cannot exist. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims against the incomprehensible God, devoid of 'body, parts, or passions,' as a thing impossible of existence..." (The Articles of Faith, p. 48 James Talmage, published by The Church of JC of Latter-day Saints, 1987)
IOW, the Mormon "god" has body parts...Either he does, or can't exist...
Talmage also taught: "...plainly...His person cannot be in more than one place at any one time." (The Articles of Faith, p. 43)
(So much for an omnipresent Mormon God!)
Oh...so Christianity "changed" the idea that God and men are of the "same race?" That the Mormon god was "saved?" And that if he needed to be saved, that would mean the Mormon god was a "sinner?"
God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement (Lds apostle John A. Widtsoe, Rational Theology, 1915, p. 61)
According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (Bruce R. Mconkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 250)
The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 34)
We offend again in our doctrine that men are of the same race with the divine personages we call Gods. Great stress is laid upon the idea that we believe that 'as man is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become.' The world usually shouts 'blasphemy' and 'sacrilege' at one when he talks of such a possibility (B.H. Roberts, 1992, Defense of The Faith and The Saints 2:570)
The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same. (Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
When you can thus feel, then you may begin to think that you can find out something about God, and begin to learn who he is. He is our Fatherthe Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. (Brigham Young, Oct. 8, 1859, JoD, 7:333)
It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been once a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed, (BY, Oct. 8, 1859, JoD, 7:333)
The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man. (BY, Feb. 23, 1862, JoD, 9:286)
What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this...He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his faithfulness, and he is beomce Lord of all. (The Essential BY, p. 138)
Knowing what we know concerning God our Father-- that he is a personal being; that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as our own; that he is an exalted and glorified being; that he was once a man and dwelt on an earth and knowing that this knowledge was had by many of the ancients, should we be surprised to find legends and myths throughout the cultures of the earth concerning gods who have divine power but human attributes and passions? (BYU professor Robert L. Millet, The Eternal Gospel, Ensign, July 1996, p. 53)
Joseph Smith did in fact teach that God is a Man of Holiness, an exalted and glorified man. (BYU professor Robert L., Millet, The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, p. 169)
Joseph Smith's purpose is to show that the Bible teaches that our Father in Heaven was once mortal, as we are. (BYU professor Emeritus Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration, p. 1087)
Oh...you mean...the CURRENT Mormon "gospel" like...
* ...taking out necro-baptizing...which, btw, even the Book of Mormon doesn't mentioned as having been practiced in its times??? [monopoly on the religio-necro industry, that's for sure! I think we should call this a polymonopoly on necro-baptisms...when are they going to open up fast-food-like windows to meet the demand to grow with more genealogical records online?]
* ...men becoming gods...gods of their own world...which, btw, even the Book of Mormon doesn't mentioned as having been taught??? ["Hey, God, move over...you can go ahead & take Mormon men's measurements for their thrones"]
* ...Temple works of washings, anointing, endowments, sealing; along with temple -- at least for its newly re-purposed usage [I guess the people of the Book of Mormon times weren't very "sacred" compared to contemporary Mormons]
* ...Celestial marriage [marriage is forever for Mormons only] [If you want to become an eternal polygamist, current Lds church policy says you can...just make sure you secure permission of anybody you've divorced & get "married" to your multiple SERIAL spouses one at a time in the temple for eternity]
* ...Three degrees of glory -- Hitler, having been necro-baptized, might be "saved"...Anne Frank, one of his victims, may have rejected her after-life Mormon proxy baptism [Mormons tout resurrection for all; yet John says there's a resurrection unto "damnation" (John 5:29) -- not too glorious]
* ...Eternal progression [at least til you hit the ceiling of your assigned glory...you terrestials aren't getting out!]
* ...The Aaronic Priesthood [yeah, like the Bible -- apostle Paul -- says, these 12-year-old "elders" better keep to one wife!]
Oh, I get it...The man for whom the university Mitt Romney graduated from -- BYU -- was named after...must have had the "correct" "God idea"...eh? And taught it from at least 1852-1873:
April 9, 1852: Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spokenHe is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50-51)
1857: Brigham Young preached that "Adam...helped to make this world...Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5,p. 331)
1859 Young taught, "Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)
June 8, 1873: Young never gave up trying to convince the 'Utah saints.' In June, 1873, Young delivered a message in the new tabernacle in Salt Lake City the afternoon of June 8:
"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me--namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve...Our Father is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to alll his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth (David W. Evans, The Deseret News, June 18, 1873 under headline of "Discourse")
Makes you wonder why mormons are so apoplectic in their attempt to be called Christian.
If I got upset over every religion who thought my religious beliefs were wrong I wouldn't have time to eat.
Are they advocating cutting my head off? No. So they aren't like the Islamics.
Let them believe as they like. That is part of what America is about you know.
It sounds similar to what many evangelicals claim. But I wonder, is this LDS Bashing Sunday?????
Uhhhh - with Muslims bearing down onus from all directions (White Hut to Mid East) the Mormons, Evangelicals, and all who want America to survive had better forget the theological small change and work together>
Slavery, dhimmitude or death are the only options available to those who lose to Islam.
Oh, conversion to Islam is another option, if one can call that a ‘choice’.
How about you indicate just what is "bashing"...rather than what is absolute, SOURCED CHAPTER AND VERSE true teachings and beliefs of the mormon church?
If FReepers are being charged to vote for mormon Romney, then they have a right to know just what he believes and that he has taken THIS oath in the mormon temple:
"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."
Mormons covenant to put the church before ALL things.
Somebody disagreeing with you is quite distinctive from somebody who publishes the world over that your creeds are 100% putrid. Especially when they smile @ you & pretend they've done no such thing.
IOW...if they were true to our face -- this disagreement...tis one thing...but when they don't...and then claim they are the ones who are Christian...
I mean I've NEVER said -- nor would I claim that God has said it -- that Mormon creeds are 100% putrid...
It would be just plain weird for a Christian to label Mormon creeds as 100% putrid -- and then try to claim that they are the real Mormons...which is what Lds do -- in reverse...
Are you a flipping democrat, trying to ensure Obama’s reelection? Sure sounds like it. If not, set your hate aside for a while, hold your nose, and vote for Romney. This country can’t survive another 4 years of Obamunism, but can probably muddle through with Romney.
Ya know, as far as I can ascertain, most American Muslims aren't advocating cutting my heads, either...Yet you can't even abide by your own counsel toward the Muslims who are peaceful (to "Let them believe as they like. That is part of what America is all about you know.")
If you can't even swallow your own counsel re: the peaceful portion of Islam in America, how do you 'xpect anybody else to absorb it?
As for those Muslims in America who do advocate cutting my head off...why can't you take what Jesus says @ face value?
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)
So does Jesus say, "fear the Muslim decapitators?" (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk.
As the apostle Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)
Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)
Tell me something, Harmless Teddy Bear: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"
I'll take Paul's and Jesus' already-revealed cultural priorities to your counsel that you can't even apply evenly to all segments of Muslims.
Let's reverse this for a moment...
Let's say you entered a thread posted by a Mormon...written by the highest most official Christian leadership you can find...and the entirety of the article is about Mormons being cultists & heretics.
Would one of your first phrases, upon entering such a thread, be: "I wonder, is this Christian Bashing Sunday?????"
IOW...since the tenor of this article is one where Mormon leaders are bashing Christians as apostates, why is your kneejerk response to go 180-degree the other way???
It's almost like you deliberately -- and totally -- gloss over how Mormon leaders present worldwide Christianity in the most extreme negative light...I'm interested in knowing why?
Whom should you fear more, one who seeks to "cut your head off" or one who would lead you to lose your soul and to be damned for eternity?
Fear them both, if you will but the latter is much more dangerous.
this country cannot survive 4 years of Romney, either
havent you been paying attention??
No...are you a pro-abort socialist, trying to ensure the election of a pro-abort socialist (Romney)?
If not, set your hate aside for a while...
If not, set your disagreement (your "hatred" for those who disagree with Mormonism) aside...
...hold your nose, and vote for Romney.
Never. Voting third-party...Will advocate others do as well.
And I'll leave the GoP if Romney is nominated...
This country cant survive another 4 years of Obamunism, but can probably muddle through with Romney.
Those in the womb can't survive either Romney or Obama...if they can be targeted w/taxpayer $ thanks to Romney & Obama -- and our country aids & abets either of them into power...this country deserves whatever judgment they are ALREADY dishing out on the pre-born!
Hey there SLC Mormons!!
YOU are the 'apostates' for IGNORING what your god told you about POLYGAMY!!
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are considered unofficial by said officials.At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially.This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness.Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial.This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used on FR by haters and bigots cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site elsewhere.Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially.
We REALLY ain't here at the same time; we just flash in and out so quickly that to ol' Joseph we APPEARED to be here together...
I can refer you to some folks who have a different experience...
No more than the other six days of the week.
But is it REALLY 'bashing' to merely re-print what the MORMON religious organization has produced over the years?
Sorry; but we are EXPOSING mormonISM so that folks SOULS will survive the HERESY from SLC!
Such a ringing endorsement. Personally, I'm not compromising my conservative principles to vote for Romney when he represents such a marginal improvement over Obama.
So sad; to hear someone who values his countrie's existance over the souls of men and women.
Ain't gonna happen; for I truly HATE the HERESY that calls itself MORMONism.
May I suggest that unless Obama is not elected, and unless enough conservatives are swept into the House and Senate - the United States will not be a place where you have to worry about Hell in the afterlife.
Allow Oabama and the Muslims in again, and Hell comes to you.
Defeat the worst enemy first, then sweat the small stuff. After all, if people do have dominion over their own lives, and free will, let them choose.
Islam and socialism remove choice.
I understand what you're saying here; but even folks in Idi Amin's Uganda would STILL have to face that after his thugs were through playing with their machetes on them.
Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword.
They went about in sheepskins and goatskins,
destitute, persecuted and mistreated -- the world was not worthy of them.
They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
Our ills will NOT be 'fixed' by political means.
If, by the 'small stuff', you mean a person's eternal destiny; then I'd say you have things backward.
If you happen to DIE, defeating the 'worse enemy first', then only the heresy of MORMONism will be able to reach you in the afterlife with it's phony 'salvation'.
Preach it, Brother!
Primarily because it is none of my business what the LDS church believes. I have known some LDS folks, and found them on the whole to be charming, and with an eye to self-sufficiency. I focus on behavior.
My Church has a horrendous history under Islam. I can judge the collective behavior and say honestly that I don’t like it, at all.
BTW, I do not consider LDS to be a ‘Christian’ church. But, I am sure that my opinion on them, causes no consternation on their part.
Individually? No, probably not.
Collectively (as that opinion is made known)? Yes, it does.
It does @ a dual level [grassroots Mormons...and particularly the leadership of the Mormon church]. #1, the Christian "brand" is highly coveted; #2, Mormon leadership -- called General Authorities -- are mostly business men. Business men tend to put a high price tag on PR/Marketing.
So it's been very important for them to market Mormonism as "Christian."
Sometimes, in Lds-church owned venues like the Deseret News, you'll see the term "other" Christians (referencing us) or "we're Christians, too" focus. More often -- when you take their books, Web site, curricula, broadcasting venues en toto, -- it's more, "We're the ONLY true Christian church on the face of the earth." One of their "scriptures" -- Doctrines & Covenants 1:30 -- says their church is the "Only true & living church on the face of the earth."
In this way, Mormonism doesn't simply try to gain a place @ the table, they actually wind up trying to be the "replacement Christians..." meaning THEY alone are THE "restoration" to us apostate "infidels." Now not only does that slander worldwide Christianity, but it's not a fair presentation to all of their contacts/potential proselytes...many of which they are already "guiding" into Mormonism based upon the missionary "good will" Christian missionaries have built up in other countries. Primarily because it is none of my business what the LDS church believes. I have known some LDS folks, and found them on the whole to be charming, and with an eye to self-sufficiency. I focus on behavior.
Well, if your church has this same anti-witnessing, anti-evangelism, anti-care, and anti-missionary attitude as you do, then allow me to state this quite clearly: I have more respect for the zeal of Mormons (albeit a falsely-based zeal), than I do for your church. [I would hope you're not "representative" of your church; elsewise, you might as well place a call to your outreach workers and tell them, "C'mon home...It's none of your business what the natives...or the locals believe."]
I have known some LDS folks, and found them on the whole to be charming, and with an eye to self-sufficiency.
I am a descendent of a Mormon leader. I have lots of Lds relatives. I appreciate them relationally. As far as it goes, we get along fine enough. I certainly appreciate them -- especially the care of a relative they took over re: oversight of...
But you need to know something about motivation. And here I make a distinction between temple Mormons -- perhaps 15-20% of the Lds population -- and non-temple Mormons. For temple Mormons, they expect they will be "gods" one day.
So...when you're auditioning for godhood, of course you're going to be outwardly "charming." Likewise -- with the legalists of His day -- Jesus complimented the Pharisees' outward behavior...He told people in His Sermon on the Mount that unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees, they would in no wise inherit His kingdom. But inwardly, Jesus compared the Pharisees to rotting flesh...called them "whitewashed tombstones" who cleaned the outside of the dish, but left the inside festering... (see Matthew 23)
As far as "self-sufficient," that's one of those "cuts both ways" traits. Self-sufficiency as to taking on the responsibilities of life is great; self-sufficiency as far as working your way toward living with Heavenly Father forever -- and pulling yourselves up by your own bootstraps -- that is works-righteousness absolutely condemned in the Bible.
One of Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball's fave phrases to guide Mormons spiritually was "pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps." [I'll follow this up later with a post of his quotes along these lines]
My Church uses the power of attraction, not promotion. Sorry about yours.
Attracting who -- if you don't even know, let alone care, what they believe?
How can you even have a decent dialogue if you don't care about what people believe re: spirituality?
Such a parochial view -- as if your views were the only ones worth caring about -- doesn't sound very personal.
I am not looking for the diaglogue. Hence, what someone else believes is just none of my business. I leave the judging to Him. I receive the Eucharist several times a month. It does not get any more personal than that.
We know that the Orthodox way works. We have no opinion on others. We focus on our own spiritual experience, and help others who are interested.