Posted on 04/17/2012 9:55:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
I’d end this article here, because that is your answer, should anyone ever ask you. And with the presidential election on the horizon, it is more than likely that Mormonism and Christianity might come up in conversation.
Already the high-profile Christian leaders are being asked about it. Saddleback Church’s Rick Warren sort of answered it by saying that Mormons don’t believe in a trinity as we do, calling it a “sticking point.” And Christian apologist Ed Stetzer completely muffed it recently by asking the question and then dancing completely around it without giving the answer we all so desperately need to hear.
The Truth.
The Truth has become increasingly muddy for Christendom because many evangelicals and almost ALL Mormons believe that Mormons must be Christian, because they say they believe in and love Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
But the real truth is that Mormonism preaches a different “jesus;” a different “gospel” and a different “truth.” So the answer we need to hear is that Mormonism and biblical Christianity cannot be squared; they are completely different faiths.
If that sounds mean-spirited, it is not. It is a neutral, biblically-based, factual statement. But mean-spirited is most assuredly how this Truth will be portrayed in the months ahead in the national conversation.
This Truth will divide. and if you believe it, then you will be accused of judging other people’s hearts. You will be in excellent company. Look at the approach the Apostle Paul took when he wrote to the early Church in Galations 1:6-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
When you put a face on Mormonism or any other faith, whether it’s a presidential candidate, a news talk show pundit or that nice, intelligent, funny, lovely person you work with or live near, it is hard to think of these people as accursed. Yet isn’t that what we all are, young and old, apart from the genuine, biblical Jesus?
* Are fundamentalist Mormons Mormon? (Do mainstream Lds have a "right" to place a definitional boundary around who is "Mormon?"...The answer from Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley was that "there was no such thing as a fundamentalist Mormon..." Hinckley's answer was to even deny their existence!)
* If the Lds church is the "ONLY true & living church on the face of the earth" (Lds "scripture" -- Doctrines & Covenants 1:30) -- are do Christians have to become Mormons to live with Heavenly Father forever? (Mormon theology says "yes")
And, then there's this question: If Mormonism is 'anti-Christian,' then how can it be considered 'Christian?'
So...a plea for consistency here...
Anybody coming into this thread to rag on the question asked in the headline...
Can we count Catholicism in the non-Christian category?
Yes. Are the people who dog them on FR Christian? Im not sure.
I’ll give you the premise, but I find it to be more worthwhile, and bit harder, to articulate my reservations in the context of why I reject the one and embrace the other:
I have studied Mormonism carefully, for myself and unguided by its detractors and I find much to question, not the least of which is the unsustainable alternating claims of “restoring the Gospel” and relying on it for legitimacy. It’s a very pick-and-choose sort of amalgam that brings to me no light, no warmth, no hint of the truth that is eternally reflected by the very laws of nature and existence. The incongruency of its reason for being and its show of provenance is beyond good sense.
In turn, my own Christian faith is based on no leap into the darkness of doubt, no transitory feeling or warmth, but it is a light of wisdom that shines brighter and brighter the more I question, investigate, and demand that the Truth be more worthy and higher than myself. I seek to let it conform me to all things that are true.
The hard work is within my own journey of faith, not in mounting a defense of it. I trust it because it tells me what I know in my heart to be true: that I am desperately unable to keep it all together, to think my way into peace and salvation. If I could, why would I need a God? Or even a pretty story?
Conversely I know that if salvation is merely deemed to be “correct thinking” about God, then who will arbitrate such thought? Why not the next man who says, “god told me”? This is a deadly fallacy for any civilization, and one we are rapidly descending into.
Moreover, the entire arc of the OT and NT are of a perfect, unified story of how we come to find God. And how He came to find us. To pretend that it was somehow “lost” after our own liberty as humans was founded on its abiding principles [truth] is to set oneself up on shifting sands. And to set up one’s neighbor to say, “what’s the difference?” because non-believers are very astute in their skepticism. No wonder Jesus went to the lost sheep.
I know Christians are admonished by scripture to defend Christianity, and that means pointing out imitations when they crop up, so I understand having to clarify that Mormons aren’t Christians, something that has been pointed out since Joseph and the boys got their religion going. What I don’t understand is why Mormons want everyone to think they are Christian? It may have had its advantages when Christianity faced less antagonism from the the world, but now that Christians and Jews are once again enemy number one, it seems like Mormons would be celebrating their differences.
Why would you say that? Jesus Christ, Word and Sacrament, centers the worship of the Catholic Church. Catholics also believe in the Holy Trinity, God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
Mormons don’t have these beliefs at all.
Likewise, can we count those who believe the Bible “contains the word of God” but is not “the Word of God” in the non-Christian category?
What is the History of Your Church?
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No.
Only the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens with accuracy and specificity.
Neither the Book of Mormon, nor the Pearl of Great Price, nor the Quran nor the Koran, nor the writings of Charles Taze Russel do this.
Only the Bible.
“It’s a very pick-and-choose sort of amalgam that brings to me no light, no warmth, no hint of the truth that is eternally reflected by the very laws of nature and existence.”
No “burning in the breast”, then? Related, to have Rick Warren say that the rejection of the trinitarian nature of God is a “sticking point” for acceptance of Mormonism as Christian just points out the vacuum that is much of the contemporary feel-good church. Discernment is not condemnation, but too many feel they’re condemning by pointing out the irreconcilable conflicts between Mormon doctrine and orthodox (in its classic sense) Christianity. Never met a Mormon I didn’t like, but I pray for the salvation of my Mormon friends.
The Catholic Church’s doctrine is closer to Judaism than Christianity.
1. Salvation by works alone
2. God’s presence in ONE location (Eucharist vs Holy of Holies)
3. No salvation outside of the Church (no protestants vs. no gentiles)
4. The view that “God’s house” must be grandiose and expensive (like Solomon’s temple)
5. One individual to communicate with God (Pope vs. High Priest)
6. Neither believe that the sacrifice of Christ paid for our sins forever.
Aside from those similarities I could also point to the selling of indulgences during the Protestant Reformation. Your money in exchange for forgiveness. That’s the same thing the money changers were doing in the synagogues when Jesus overturned their tables and drove them out with a whip.
Odd, I see “catholic”, which means “universal”, but no “Roman Catholic”, which means something completely different.
Not to pick a fight, but “catholic” and “Roman Catholic” are not the same thing. The church at Rome did not exist in AD 33. Paul didn’t get to Rome until over 20 years later, Peter didn’t get to Rome until after Paul was beheaded (IIRC). I understand your position, but it’s probably better not to use that particular date.
Great minds! See my Post #14...
Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church? NOPE.
The word “Catholic” is never mentioned.
He and the Apostles DID however bring us the Gospel, which Catholicism chooses to cherry pick at some points and completely ignore at other points...
For example, Christ says “this is the blood of the new covenant, poored out for you” and the Catholic Church CREATES the doctrine of trans-substantiation.
The Catholic church doesn’t believe in PERMANENT forgiveness of sins through Christ ALONE. It’s ironic that they celebrate the Body and Blood of Christ but don’t actually accept the meaning of it!
And finally, when Jesus told Peter that he held the keys to the Kingdom he was not referring to literal keys. Rather he was explaining that God would reveal himself to the hearts of men (just as he did with Peter) when asked “who do you say I am?
BTW, when you use the moniker Roman Catholic or RCC it is an automatic note to us that the true knowledge of the Catholic Church is not known. Please do look at these links:
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Did all of you know that there are 22 Catholic Churches? LOL!
Adding The Book of Mormon and claiming it, too, is inspired differs in magnitude but not in kind from throwing out the books of the OT. Or, is the assertion that it's OK to throw out portions of the Scripture but not to add to the Scripture?
Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ, God from God, is our risen Savior which means they are not Christian no matter what they like to call themselves. Those who today are focused on being anti-Mormon and tomorrow focused on being anti-Something else but agree with what Joseph Smith said about the Catholic Church and about Christian denominations or groups other than their own are just like Joseph Smith. They're people who have made up their own religion and claim it's Christian but who in reality are not Christian.
NOPE there will be NO “Mormans” in heaven! NONE!
also...
This idea of the infallibility of the Pope is ludicrous. Even Catholicism’s “first Pope” Peter denied Christ 3 times!
- They slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people (see the Aztecs and Muslims) in the name of the Church
- For a long time, they discouraged people from reading the Bible at all. They don’t recognize that the Holy Spirit (which they allege to believe in) gives us understanding of scripture.
I could go ooooon and ooooon about this.
My point is that (in my opinion at least) none of the candidates practice true Christianity.
Mormon 1830 Joseph Smith New York
New York huh, it figures!
Many people confuse the word infallability with the word impeccable.
The Pope is human, he is not sinless, thus infallibility is not a characteristic of the pope’s personal conduct or his private views.
But on pronouncements of faith and morals with the Magisterium of the Church, he is infallible.
“Even when Vatican I (1869-1870) defined papal infallibility, it did so in terms of the Church. Vatican I stated that when the pope defines a dogma of faith (often described as speaking “ex cathedra”—from the chair), he is gifted by the Holy Spirit with that infallibility with which God wished the Church to be endowed in defining a doctrine of faith or morals.”
Sorry, I hijacked the thread. Additional comments about Catholicism need to be sent to me in FReepmail.
Now back to the title of this thread. Are Mormons Christians?
The answer is an emphatic “NO.”
And we, as Christians, are a "kingdom of priests" and are "saints", without need of an advocate, save for one, Christ Jesus himself, who makes daily intercession for His chosen. I need no man as mediator, as the Jews did, since the blood of bulls and goats merely covered the sin, but not removed it. But Christ, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, ... For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Moreover, the entire arc of the OT and NT are of a perfect, unified story of how we come to find God. And how He came to find us. To pretend that it was somehow “lost” after our own liberty as humans was founded on its abiding principles [truth] is to set oneself up on shifting sands
I think what I bold-faced above is the "better version" of what you wrote -- How he came to find us ... especially how God in Christ...vs. how we "find God." After all, if 'twas left up to us to merely try to find & fathom God, who could do it?
Not sure what you're referencing as "lost"...Because indeed, the Bible presents man-upon-natural birth as spiritually in bondage; spiritually dead; in sin; subject to darkness, death & the devil. Those are hardly "neutral" spiritually enlightened conditions to begin a "trek" toward God.
In turn, my own Christian faith is based on no leap into the darkness of doubt, no transitory feeling or warmth, but IT is a light of wisdom that shines brighter and brighter the more I question, investigate, and demand that the Truth be more worthy and higher than myself. I seek to let IT conform me to all things that are true.
I don't know you...I may be off-base in this assessment...but having read many others' comments about their "spirituality" makes me ask you: do you have any New Age tinges in your "faith?"
Why do I ask? Because those who integrate some New Age leanings into their spirituality tend toward the impersonal in describing their relationship with divinity. And, in this graph, you twice reference an impersonal "it" -- first in reference to your "faith" -- and then to "wisdom/Truth."
Our Lord Jesus has shown that Truth is Personal...a Living Person. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," says Jesus. (John 14:6). Likewise, if I was to ask about your trust relationship with your spouse or key other person in your life, would you describe the relationship as an "it?" (I think of a trust relationship as deeply more personal than that).
Conversely I know that if salvation is merely deemed to be “correct thinking” about God, then who will arbitrate such thought?
Good reminder. There is such a thing as "dead orthodoxy."
But that gets back to my previous graph...that Jesus defined eternal life as follows: 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3)
Notice ALL key components here: An intimate relationship ("knowing" -- going beyond dead orthodoxy); it also includes not only knowing Jesus...but knowing "the ONLY true God."
In the context of your comments, knowing "any ole god" won't do...You may have given a nice counterbalance to relying only upon dead orthodoxy, but knowing any ole god won't do, either. You may think you might have a "wonderful" online relationship with someone you've never met face to face, but if that person has either misrepresented themself -- or if others have done that on his/her behalf -- you don't really know that true person, do you.
People can be counterfeited...
...$ can...
...Goods can...services...products...currency...
However much the temptation exists to downgrade "correct thinking about God," the opposite error is to neglect the sad reality of counterfeit spirituality...counterfeit knowledge...counterfeit relationships...counterfeit presentations about who the "only true God is.
In the context of this thread, there is really no way Mormons can properly honor Jesus' words in John 17:3. Why? Because Lds theology doesn't teach that there's "only ONE TRUE God."
They teach many!!! God the Father had a father & a grandfather. A "council of Gods" appointed him to become a god. This god had a wife or wives...apparently also divine. Mormons deem their "jesus" and their "holy ghost" as separate gods. And then they teach that males can become gods & add to the great god count.
Such theology makes a mockery of many straightforward statements by Jesus and by writers of the Bible.
Something for you to research: How many thousands did the Aztecs kill in order for the sun to come up every morning? From the dawn of their existence until its merciful, albeit bloody, demise, how many, do you think? Cortez said the streets ran deep with blood on Aztec high holy days. Christians were appalled at the brutality, bestiality, perversity of the Aztecs toward their own people, children, women.
Then there are a lot of mainline denominations that would also not be considered Christian.
The Mormons say the Gospels were “lost,” not me.
Moreover, I don’t give one fine damn what you think about my faith.
Defend the faith, but never forget that Mormons, being bereft of the Living Water, might be thirsty. Your ten-ton truck of Truth can’t make it across your 1/4-inch plywood bridge of Love. Let Love be your highest aim.
And I am ashamed to have wasted my effort on such a foolish thread.
Excuse me? I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior, that he died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later. He dies for my sins, for all sins committed by those who lived and live on this earth. And I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. At the judgement day Christ will look upon my heart and see how I followed Him and his words and teachings. That is what it all comes down to for everyone.
Oh, so now you are the judge of who will be in heaven?
You’re right, of course. If it ain’t in the Bible (and I read the King James version) it ain’t of God. You can have your version and your extra books and all that hoodoo. help yourself!
No my Heavenly Father and the Creator of EVERYTHING will be. And if YOU have not accepted his gift of his son and accested him as your saviour YOU will NOT be in Heaven.
you could easily reverse the Catholic and the Orthodox chuch. Given the history that is too long to go into here.
That said.
is there a problem with the “mormonistas”?
is there a utah liberation organization?
are there mormons beheading nyt reporters?
is tom cruise a member?
It’s an open secret Navy Vet is trying to share with you. Jesus made it clear that He is the door, He is the way. Joseph Smith will not be a ‘co judge’ as your LDS inc leadership has tried to assert. In fact, given Joe Smith’s heresies and blasphemies toward The Jesus, I’d say Joe will not even know of Heaven from his place of torment. You don’t want to go where Joe Smith is.
I am aware of the bloody history of the Aztecs. Does that mean they deserved genocide in the name of the Catholic Church?
No, but Harry Reid is an official visiting home teacher of the Mormon church.
And of those teachings, could you clarify the difference 'tween a Scientologist "Thetan" who has no body & a pre-existent Mormon near Kolob who has yet to get a body?
Could you clarify the distinction 'tween the Scientologist vision of Venus having a "landing station" & the star/planet near Kolob being a before-and-after stomping grounds of the Mormon?
Could you clarify for us how Romney's Mormon-touted "spirit birth place" of being near Kolob (out-of-this-world alien "birthplace") is all that much different from Obama's alleged out-of-this-country birthplace?
are there mormons beheading nyt reporters?
Can you first PROVE for us -- with documentation -- Obama as a Muslim?
Secondly, if your Islamic terrorist references aren't Obama-related, don't we take our cultural cues (if we're Christians) from a certain God-Man named Jesus?
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." (Luke 12:4-5)
So does Jesus say, "fear the Muslim decapitators?" (No)
Instead, does He say to exercise fear of the One who has authority to cast somebody into hell? (Yes)
So, indeed, our "fear" is on behalf of those who are placing their eternal spiritual lives at risk...including Mormons.
As the apostle Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)
Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)
Tell us something, longtermmemory: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years, do you think it's rather important? So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"
Thank you for the clarification.
Re: Love vs. Truth...1 Cor. 13:6 talks about how love rejoices in the truth...It's not pitted one vs. the other...
One way to treat another is actually to love one with the truth...vs. enabling them to continue believing falsehoods.
Even tough love is love.
(Obviously, I don't endorse all done under the banner of "truth"...and the apostle Paul says to speak the truth in love)
I do give a care what others believe...I'm sorry you took issue with that...(which leads me to believe I was onto something)
Actually, I hope like the apostle Paul did: re: the legalistic Jews of his day...that many would be saved (Romans 9:1-3)...
I only wish I could be like Paul...who said in those verses that if only he could be damned/cursed...to hell...so that the Jews would be saved...
Fortunately, Jesus was "cursed" (Gal. 3:13) & went to hell on our behalf -- including Mormons...if only they could trust in Jesus' proxy work on the cross...so they, too, could be saved (vs. a works-righteousness of their own)
I cannot speak of deserts. I can only speak of what was, what happened, and what was the result. They were certainly practicing self-genocide in the name of Cuatlique, who gave no option of "convert or die" just simply, "die."
Much like our own society is killing its newborns. I shudder to think what we deserve.
I’m pretty sure I’m the thread hijacker here. Whoops!
That said, I agree 100% with you. Mormonism is NOT Christianity.
Yes, you’re onto something: assumptions.
You’re as bad as Joe Smith peeping at stones and seeing what isn’t there.
The Catholic Church did not commit genocide on the peoples of the Americas. The Church sent missionaries to liberate the native populations from what many consider the most institutionally evil society in history. It was the Aztecs, who numbered only about 20% of the population of Mesoamerica who were committing genocide on its neighboring tribes. In 1487, in one four day ceremony, between 80,000 and 100,000 human victims sacrificed and then ritually eaten.
The Aztecs were overthrown in 1521 by Hernan Cortez who had a force of only 400 soldiers and 100 sailors from his scuttled ships. He relied heavily upon his alliances with the neighboring tribes who provided most of the manpower for his conquest.
Cortes and his troops killed fewer natives than were sacrificed in any given week, but millions died as a result of the diseases introduced by the Europeans. The conquered and liberated Indians rapidly embraced Christianity. In 1531 St. Juan Diego, an Aztec peasant and convert to Catholicism, had his Marian apparition. The most complete and rapid conversion took place in the following 10 years over 9 million converted to Catholicism.
Go back and read your Bible. Christ gives the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, the first Pope.
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