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On Fifteen Years a Catholic ("How can you join a church that tells you how to think?")
Catholic World Report ^ | April 20, 2012 | Carl Olson

Posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:32 AM PDT by NYer


(Photo courtesy of Fr. Lawrence Lew, O.P.)

“How can you join a church that tells you how to think?”

The question, uttered with equal parts puzzlement and anger, surprised me. In hindsight, it should have been about as surprising as an afternoon drizzle here in Eugene, Oregon, in early spring. The question—almost an accusation, really—was made one early spring day over fifteen years ago. It was said in the middle of an intense discussion about the reasons why my wife and I, both graduates of Evangelical Bible colleges, had decided to become Catholic.

I’m happy to note, all these years later, that I have a good and healthy relationship with the man who made the remark. We both uttered strong words that day, but time and some further conversations—more calm and measured in nature—have brought peace, if not perfect understanding.

I’ve sometimes joked, in recounting the full story to close friends, that I came up with the perfect retort several hours later: “At least I’m entering a Church that knows what the word ‘think’ means!” It would have been a low blow, but it touches on two issues that continue to resonate with me, now fifteen years a Catholic, nearly every day in some way or another.

The Mindless Scandal

The first is the intellectual life. The Fundamentalism of my youth was, in sum, anti-intellectual; it looked with caution, even fearful disdain, on certain aspects of modern science, technology, and academic study. But it wasn’t because we were Luddites or held a principled position against electricity, computers, or space exploration. The concern was essentially spiritual in nature; the guiding concern was that televisions, radios, “boom boxes” (remember?), and movies were potential tools for conveying messages—often subliminal in nature—contrary to a godly, Christian life. The general instinct was, in fact, actually sound. Only the creators of “Jersey Shore” can deny the power and influence of popular culture, and then only with a smirk. But the permeating fear was rarely controlled, critiqued, and concentrated through rigorous thought and study. It was reactionary and highly subjective, and so it became a sort of rogue agent, undermining the most innocent activities: reading the Chronicles of Narnia, listening to any “non-Christian” music, or studying art or literature not including any overt references to “Jesus” and “the Gospel”.  

My time in Bible college proved helpful in many ways, as several of my professors were certainly not fearful of going outside the box, even—gasp!—assigning books by Flannery O’Connor and Gerard Manley Hopkins (there was also some reading of Augustine, but in an extremely abridged form). But for every question answered, others sprung up like dandelions, multiplying with maddening surety. When I read Mark Noll’s controversial bestseller, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (Eerdmans, 1994), I was confirmed in many of the intuitions and thoughts I had mulled and culled over the years. Noll opened his book with this withering shot of lightning: “The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind.” Readers can disagree on the level of hyperbole used; Noll, a dedicated Evangelical scholar, seemed dead serious in his assertion. “For a Christian”, he wrote, “the most important consideration is not pragmatic results, or even the weight of history, but the truth.” These and other statements rang true. I had become convinced, at a relatively early age, that if something is true and good, it must be of God.

The Need for Authority

Of course, how did I know what was “true and good”? Enter the second issue: authority. I won’t regale readers about the details of my struggle with sola scriptura. (Readers can catch a few of them in my 1998 account our journey into the Church.) Instead, I’ll skip to something I wrote in February 1996, from a list of “several points of consideration” I put down regarding the claims of the Catholic Church. “I have become increasingly convinced”, I wrote, “that the idea of sola scriptura is in the end untenable … Again, this does not render judgment on the inspiration or infallibility of Scripture, it just moves the question to a different arena—that of authority.”

Nearly every non-Catholic adult who chooses to become Catholic will admit, or least should admit, the centrality of the matter of authority. As a Fundamentalist, I had been fed the standard, Jack Chick-ean version of Catholic authority: bloody, despotic, dishonest, power-driven, and so forth. The hike from there to looking squarely and honestly at authority in the Catholic Church was lengthy, but one key mile post was studying St. Paul’s description in his first letter to Timothy of “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). A passage by Abp. Fulton Sheen, written in the 1940s, sums up the matter quite well:

There is nothing more misunderstood by the modern mind than the authority of the Church. Just as soon as one mentions the authority of the Vicar of Christ there are visions of slavery, intellectual servitude, mental chains, tyrannical obedience, and blind service on the part of those who, it is said, are forbidden to think for themselves. That is positively untrue. Why has the world been so reluctant to accept the authority of the Father’s house? Why has it so often identified the Catholic Church with intellectual slavery? The answer is, because the world has forgotten the meaning of liberty.

One Surprise: The Bad

We entered the Catholic Church on March 29, 1997, Easter Vigil at Saint Paul Catholic Church in Eugene, Oregon. It was a joyful night and I can say with complete honesty I have never regretted becoming Catholic. But I have been surprised a few times as a Catholic. Two surprises stand out; they also, in a way related to the two points above, stand together.

As an Evangelical, I was very familiar with “church splits”. I endured my first as a four-year old (our family and several others left the local Christian and Missionary Alliance assembly) and my wife and I stopped attending our last Evangelical church while it was in the middle of a dramatic split. I soon learned, as a new Catholic, that “splits” aren’t really part of being Catholic. I also learned that disgruntled Catholics, especially those upset about Church teaching on sexuality, authority, and the priesthood, don’t always leave the Church; on the contrary, they often simply try to take over the Church. And by “Church”, I mean both the local parish and the Church as a whole. My first big surprise, then, was finding out that while I (and many other former Protestants) had spent months and years working through Church doctrine and moral teaching, we were entering a Church apparently dominated and largely run, at least in practical terms, by Catholics complaining incessantly and obnoxiously about Church doctrine and moral teaching.

Moving toward and then into the Church, I wasn’t unaware of such problems. But the sheer scope of the situation was confounding. It helped that I had a relatively low view of the human state; I didn’t expect pews full of Catechism-quoting saints. But I had hopes that most of them knew about the Catechism and had some desire to live holy lives. And so the farmer boy arrived in the city.

It’s not surprising that Catholics sin. It is surprising how some Catholic insist certain sins are not only sins in name only but are actually virtues in disguise!  It’s not shocking that many Catholics misunderstand the nature and mission of the Church. It is shocking how some Catholics deliberately distort and misrepresent the nature and mission of the mystical Body of Christ. It is not scandalous, per se, that many Catholics don’t have a close relationship with Jesus Christ. But it is scandalous when Catholics insist they don’t need Christ or his Church in order to be Catholic.

A case in point is the recent statement released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) about the status of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR). The CDF noted its serious concerns with long established patterns of “corporate dissent” indicating LCWR leaders often “take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality.” In fact, from its founding in the early 1970s, the Conference has thumbed its corporate nose at a host of Church teachings, including papal authority, the male priesthood, sexuality and contraception, the uniqueness of Christ, and so forth. It is the height (or depth) of irony that the LCWR site has this quote from Margaret Brennan, IHM, President from 1972 to 1973: “One danger for us is that we may become legitimators of society's commonly held values.” It ceased being a danger long ago, perhaps even before the quote was uttered. The CDF also highlighted the deep influence of radical feminist theology within the LCWR, and the undermining of the fundamental and “revealed doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.” Details!

To judge by the mainstream news, the Vatican has been forcibly removing old nuns from convents and shuttling them to live beneath bridges and overpasses in southern Utah. One headline declared, “Vatican targets US nuns' reps”; another darkly stated, “Vatican condemns American nuns for liberal stances”. None of this surprising, of course, as the secular media is fixated on sensationalism, conflict, and opposition to traditional Christian teachings. You won’t see a headline stating, “Vatican offered LCWR a chance to save itself from self-inflicted death.” It would not fit the narrative, even if it fits the facts: the average age of LCWR women religious is at least twice that of those women religious in the CMSWR (Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious). Instead there are delicious sound bites, such as when Sister Simone Campbell, head of the lefty Network (named directly by the CDF), tells NPR it’s all about out-of-touch men in the Vatican who “are not used to strong women” and then blithely—arrogantly, really—says:

Women get it first and then try to explain it to the guys who - I mean, as the women did to the Apostles. So, we will try to explain it to the guys. We'll keep up our roles from the Scriptures.

Because every good Scripture scholar know that what Mary Magdalene and the other women did, to their eternal credit, was publicly thumb their noses at the Apostles' teachings and actions!

What the media also won’t say (again, understandably) is the situation with the LCWR is about a crisis of faith that has been festering and spreading for decades as an affront to genuine Church authority. One result of this crisis of faith is, I think, a laity weary, numb, angry, or simply confused. How to make sense of it? Stepping back as much as possible, one can situate it somewhere in the stream of parasitical, self-loathing, and self-righteous pseudo-religiosity that may be best defined as “modern, pantheistic-secularist liberalism”. Its heaven is earth; its authority is self (wrongly identified as “conscience”); its goals are horizontal (“social justice”); its rhetoric is both morally charged and completely bankrupt. “When you set out to reform a people, a group, who have done nothing wrong,” opined the endlessly opining Joan Chittister about the CDF statement, “you have to have an intention, a motivation that is not only not morally based, but actually immoral.” This is the same woman who praised and eulogized the radical, lesbian, Church-hating Mary Daly, saying Daly’s work “was an icon to women”. She fails completely, by any decent standard, to comprehend the meaning of “immoral”.

But this, I’ve learned, is the way of heresy within the Church, going back to the very beginning (think, for example, of Paul’s fight for the Galatians): to abuse trust and power, to misuse language, to undermine genuine authority, to dismiss essential truths, to claim the morally superior ground, to be a victim but never a martyr, and to distract and deflect at all costs.

The Second Surprise: The Good

This past Thursday marked the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the Chair of Peter, despite the assurances of the usual suspects with unusually suspect intuition. This was a moment of great joy for me; Cardinal Ratzinger had long been a favorite theologian and author. His books helped me in becoming Catholic and they’ve helped me in becoming a better thinking and, hopefully, better living Catholic.

But, of course, just as the narrative about the LCWR presents disobedience as goodness, the narrative about Benedict XVI has often been as follows: an angry, narrow-minded, Nazi-sympathizing reactionary is now Pope, and he is intent on dragging the Church back to the dreaded Dark Ages. Perhaps some of this utterly banal silliness could be forgiven in the first week following the election. But since then it has reflected unlearned arrogance (a media specialty), or petulant and personal smearing (a media delight), or slovenly regurgitation of falsehoods (a media habit). Or all three (a media trinity).

I won’t bother with an apologetic. Simply read the man’s writings. And if you haven’t read the recently published collection, Fundamental Speeches From Five Decades (Ignatius Press, 2012), which contains a fabulous talk given in 1970, when then Fr. (and Professor) Joseph Ratzinger was just about my own age now, forty three or so. The talk was titled, “Why I am still in the Church”. It begins with a nuanced and thoughtful reflection on the confusion faced by many Catholics in the years after the Council, which Ratzinger described as “this remarkable Tower of Babel situation”. He noted some Catholics wish to make the Church into their own image, reflecting their desires and goals, not those of the Church herself. Behind all of the struggles over what the Church “should be”, Ratzinger said, is a “crucial” point: “the crisis of faith, which is the actual nucleus of the process”.

Then, answering the question implicit in his talk’s title, he said:

I am in the Church because, despite everything, I believe that she is at the deepest level not our but precisely “his” Church. To put it concretely: It is the Church that, despite all the human foibles of the people in her, gives us Jesus Christ, and only through her can we receive him as a living, authoritative reality that summons and endows me here and now. … This elementary acknowledgement has to be made at the start: Whatever infidelity there is or may be in the Church, however true it is that she constantly needs to be measured anew by Jesus Christ, still there is ultimately no opposition between Christ and Church. It is through the Church that he remains alive despite the distance of history, that he speaks to us today, is with us today as master and Lord, as our brother who unites us all as brethren. And because the Church, and she alone, gives us Jesus Christ, causes him to be alive and present in the world, gives birth to him again in every age in the faith and prayer of the people, she gives mankind a light, a support, and a standard without which mankind would be unimaginable. Anyone who wants to find the presence of Jesus Christ in mankind cannot find it contrary to the Church but only in her.

And therein lies the answer to the question that opened this essay, the question presented to me not long before I became Catholic. How could I join a Church that tells me how to think? How could I not join the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the household of his Father, infused with life by her soul, the Holy Spirit? How could I think—or desire, or choose, or will—to do otherwise? And how can I, given the grace to be a Catholic, not stand up for my mother, the Church? “Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith” (CCC 169). She teaches us how to think because, alone, we know not how. Or why. Or Who.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
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1 posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:36 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 04/22/2012 11:24:23 AM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: NYer

I thought telling you how. To think was a hallmark of every religion?


3 posted on 04/22/2012 11:27:21 AM PDT by BigCinBigD
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To: NYer

What’s the problem with believing the truth?


4 posted on 04/22/2012 11:33:34 AM PDT by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: BigCinBigD

the church doesnt tell you what to think...you have the free will to accept the grace offered, and think along the lines of the church and Christ’s teachings....


5 posted on 04/22/2012 11:36:23 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: BigCinBigD
Nothing wrong with being taught HOW to think, but everything wrong with being told WHAT to think.

A matter not thought through is unsettled still.

6 posted on 04/22/2012 11:38:25 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: NYer
And therein lies the answer to the question that opened this essay, the question presented to me not long before I became Catholic. How could I join a Church that tells me how to think? How could I not join the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the household of his Father, infused with life by her soul, the Holy Spirit? How could I think—or desire, or choose, or will—to do otherwise? And how can I, given the grace to be a Catholic, not stand up for my mother, the Church? “Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith” (CCC 169). She teaches us how to think because, alone, we know not how. Or why. Or Who.

AMEN!

7 posted on 04/22/2012 11:46:36 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

I’ve heard him speak. He is also a dynamic speaker as well as writer.


8 posted on 04/22/2012 11:48:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

The Church does not tell you what to think,
One Voluntarily Submits to it’s Teachings

some interpretations of Islam may force Submission,
but Christianity doesn’t

Voluntary Submission is required for
Confession, Contrition, and Penance


9 posted on 04/22/2012 11:53:25 AM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: NYer

I just celebrated my 20th anniversary of becoming Catholic. Been growing ever since.


10 posted on 04/22/2012 12:21:00 PM PDT by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: NYer

Very clear-minded view.


11 posted on 04/22/2012 12:52:41 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: NYer

I must’ve been a mind-numb robot.

I was twelve when I wondered into a Catholic church, one Sunday afternoon during Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.

I saw a man in gold vestments, swinging a gold smoking object while pointing it at a gold monstrance which had a White Object in it, saw the smoke, smelled the incense, heard the bells while everyone was quiet. Looked at the many statues and, somehow I knew that this was for me. I shall always remember that scene.

That was a lifetime ago, and I never looked back.


12 posted on 04/22/2012 1:21:25 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: NYer
>>the pillar and foundation of truth<<

What does a pillar do? It upholds something doesn’t it. It doesn’t create something or define something. It upholds or supports what is there. It’s the same for a foundation. It doesn’t generate something. It supports what has been built. The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth. That it can edict something which isn’t in scripture and the followers must believe it. Mariology is completely made up by the RCC using age old pagan rituals and beliefs. It has no foundation in scripture. What the RCC wants followers to believe about “the pillar and foundation of truth” is a fallacy.

13 posted on 04/22/2012 2:10:38 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: NYer

Here is another true story that can make us all think.

Although there is a TON of good stuff here, scroll down to
FATHER Lazarus El Anthony — THE LAST ANCHORITE — A hermit of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church in the Egyptian desert

Lazurus El anthony was a university lecturer in literature and philosophy in Australia, an atheist of 40 years and a Marxist. Then his mother died.

And he entered the desert.

His autobiography is MOST interesting.

http://stpaulbr.webs.com/foryourprivateretreats.htm


14 posted on 04/22/2012 2:55:38 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth.”

The Catholic Church has NEVER, EVER taught that or supported that idea.


15 posted on 04/22/2012 2:57:19 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: CynicalBear
That it can edict something

Is "to edict" a sort of Protestant verb? like "to fellowship?"

16 posted on 04/22/2012 3:57:20 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this. I am reading Pope Benedict’s book on the Eicharist, written while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger. He discusses the dissension after Vatican II and says that some poeple thought that making mass more “everyday” was what Christ wanted. He said this is why we had a series of churches built with multi-purpose areas rather than a separate church and parish hall. This struck me because that is how MY parish church was until about 8 years ago, when they gathered enough money to build a separate church and leave the mulit-purpose room to be the parish hall.

I also have struggled with parishioners who seem like they would be more happy as Methodists or something else non-Catholic, but instead are within the Church complaining and pushing false doctrine. I struggle with the abysmal music, my personal share in the sufferings of Christ.

Yet I cannot be anywhere else. One of the reasons I joined was BECAUSE of obedience, something I knew I needed to learn. And I joined because I cannot escape the idea that this is the Church Christ founded.

Now I must tell you I probably will not be here anymore. I have appreciated all the posts you have put up, but this place has become very unpleasant and is not on my list of places to visit. I came upon your post by accident.

So thank you for all of your work here over the years, and may God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit bless you for it.


17 posted on 04/22/2012 5:20:10 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: vladimir998
>>The Catholic Church has NEVER, EVER taught that or supported that idea.<<

Then show from scripture the bodily assumption of Mary.

18 posted on 04/22/2012 5:37:27 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“Then show from scripture the bodily assumption of Mary.”

Something doesn’t have to be explicitly in scripture to be true, nor does something not appearing explicitly in scripture mean it was “generated” by the Church. Also, the Assumption is seen by orthodox Christians in Revelation 12.


19 posted on 04/22/2012 6:03:55 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: ex-snook
What’s the problem with believing the truth?

It depends upon the individual's focus. If the individual is focused upon the truth, then everything is good. If the individual has a particular belief system in place, then 'truth' becomes not an absolute, but a fluid.

20 posted on 04/22/2012 6:43:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: vladimir998
>>Something doesn’t have to be explicitly in scripture to be true<<

A belief so central to Catholics wasn’t taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break. We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.

>>Also, the Assumption is seen by orthodox Christians in Revelation 12.<<

LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.

21 posted on 04/22/2012 6:44:02 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.

This is ALWAYS the response, isn't it? "Show it to me in the Bible!" "Okay, here it is ..." "LOL ... That passage doesn't mean that"

ALWAYS. ALWAYS.

Hear this, loud and clear: You have NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA authority to tell ANYONE else what the Bible means, and that's according to your own theology!! ... if you apply it consistently.

If you don't have to accept that the Pope can tell you what Scripture means, then logically I don't have to accept that you can tell me what Scripture means, either.

This is of course the fundamental flaw at the root of sola scriptura. Who gets to decide what the hard passages mean? You think you ought to get to decide what the hard passages mean for you, but I'm under no compunction to recognize your authority to decide that for me, am I? Of course not. Denying the Papacy in principle does not mean that you then get to appoint yourself to the office that you just rejected.

And, BTW, you're completely wrong about Revelation 12. The son is an individual, the dragon is an individual, and the woman is also an individual.

22 posted on 04/22/2012 7:02:50 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“A belief so central to Catholics wasn’t taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break.”

Learn to read. I said Revelation 12. That being said, no, something that we might all consider important does not have to be in scripture. Example = what books belong in the Bible.

“We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.”

No, actually we can’t. We can’t do that anymore than all those claims that the story of Jesus is just a pagan story. Idiots make claims, but they are easily refuted: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm
There is, in fact, no demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories.

“LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.”

No, actually the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary, Israel and the Church. That’s the way orthodox Christians have always seen it. Only modern Protestants don’t. Even early Protestants often saw it.


23 posted on 04/22/2012 7:08:19 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: 353FMG

How wonderful for you, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

I was in Catholic churches fairly often because I live in a small town and went to weddings and funerals and I never even saw any of that stuff, I was probably so into myself I couldn’t see them.

I was around 38 when I seriously started asking questions and making my lazy Catholic friends answer them even if they had to go to the priest. I was 46 when I was confirmed, so the journey was long but wonderful.


24 posted on 04/22/2012 7:31:35 PM PDT by tiki
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To: tiki

Ah, I forgot to mention that this event took place way before Vatican II.

I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and I still miss it.


25 posted on 04/22/2012 9:03:59 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: CynicalBear

blah, blah, blah. The facts are that those who reject Christ’s teachings reject the Church and the wanderings from the teachings of Christ through His apostles leads to kooks like the Raelians, Benny Hinn and the like...


26 posted on 04/23/2012 2:50:15 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Miss Marple

But...we need good people like you to provide the balance, wisdom, etc. We need to pray for those who are frustrated and help them think. This Caucus has become one of the best things here for me...and that is because these good people are faithful.

;-)


27 posted on 04/23/2012 4:48:58 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: CynicalBear
"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21


28 posted on 04/23/2012 8:24:34 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: CynicalBear
The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth.

Nonsense.

The makers of Royal Crown Cola want people to think that their product is a tasty beverage.

29 posted on 04/23/2012 8:34:14 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Campion
>>and the woman is also an individual<<

So you think Mary is coming back to earth to be persecuted and protected?

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

30 posted on 04/23/2012 8:43:11 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: vladimir998
>>There is, in fact, no demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories.<<

Oh really? Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.

Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;

25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.

26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.

31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre.

32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.

33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people.

34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?

36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.

37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.

38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.`

Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.

There are other references to the “queen of heaven” concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?

31 posted on 04/23/2012 9:44:22 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
>>The facts are that those who reject Christ’s teachings reject the Church<<

I’m sure you would be so kind as to show us where Jesus taught the concept of the “queen of heaven”?

32 posted on 04/23/2012 9:46:04 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: A.A. Cunningham
>>"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21<<

Why is it you think we use only scripture to interpret scripture?

33 posted on 04/23/2012 9:51:07 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: HangnJudge

Well put. I think what I will. When what I think seems against the magesterium, I figure it’s a mystery, and I’ll find out later, if its important. I didn’t necessarily BELIEVE everything I was told, but I ACCEPTED it. And honestly, the church and I were very closely matched before I decided to join.


34 posted on 04/23/2012 10:29:42 AM PDT by ichabod1 (Cheney/Rumsfeld 2012)
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To: CynicalBear

Read the bit about honor your father and your mother. Jesus did and does honor His mother...


35 posted on 04/23/2012 12:35:46 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn't mean this term can't rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Dn 2:37), yet this doesn't preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rv 17:14; 19:16).

have you ever read rev 1:6 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - so, in heaven to reign as kings and Queens. Mary is in heaven (or do you doubt that?), so add those two ...

36 posted on 04/23/2012 12:43:27 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear

or lets take another one — Ba’al — that’s canaanite for Lord. So, ya saying that to call God Lord is pagan?


37 posted on 04/23/2012 12:47:22 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
"What does a pillar do? It upholds something doesn’t it. It doesn’t create something or define something. It upholds or supports what is there. It’s the same for a foundation."

Not in biblical symbolism. Throughout Scripture a pillar is used as a symbol of God's presence and law.

38 posted on 04/23/2012 12:55:14 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Cronos

-—fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.-—

The key to understanding this for me is that Mary is the “Queen Mother” of Jesus, the King of the eternal House of David.

Solomon exalted the office of Queen Mother to be higher than that of the Queen.

Queen Bathsheba bows to her husband, King David. King Solomon bowed to her, his Queen Mother. The Queen Mother sat at Solomon’s right hand.


39 posted on 04/23/2012 12:57:43 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: CynicalBear
now, tell me why you don't listen to Christ's words?

Jesus said


40 posted on 04/23/2012 12:58:01 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
And, if you want to give proof, prove the Trinity Doctrine ...... ALL of it without using the tradition of the Ecumenical fathers

Note -- ALL of it:
the Father is 100% God
the Son is 100% God
the Holy Spirit is 100% God
All are co-equal
All are co-powerful
All are co-existing
All are omniescient (IOWs exist inifitously and outside of time and space)
That All live in All time and space

41 posted on 04/23/2012 1:00:53 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Furthermore, to a proponent of the Gap theory of creationism, how can you explain that without what is NOT there?

do you realize that it is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states?

Do you realize that this theory if you hold to it puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture?

42 posted on 04/23/2012 1:04:58 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices

Wow, folks use that to compare Odin's handing on a tree to condemn us Christians. wow...

43 posted on 04/23/2012 1:13:10 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
"wow..."

Symbol is derived from the Greek word symbolon, meaning half of a broken object. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. Its earliest uses was as a proof of a pact or contract. Often a sacred object would be broken and the pieces distributed between the parties. The pieces remained the symbol of the agreement and the perfect fit with the other pieces, like a key, proved the legitimacy of the relationship.

All persons were created in His image by God and for God and have within their hearts a desire to return to God. Pagan symbols, rituals, and practices that fit perfectly with the Word of God are not a coincidence, unless one presumes that God would have been too damned dumb to plant and make use of them when calling His lost and separated Children home. Because God is the author of all truth and beauty, any traces of truth or beauty found in paganism was of God. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church"

1147 God speaks to man through the visible creation. The material cosmos is so presented to man's intelligence that he can read there traces of its Creator. Light and darkness, wind and fire, water and earth, the tree and its fruit speak of God and symbolize both his greatness and his nearness.

1148 Inasmuch as they are creatures, these perceptible realities can become means of expressing the action of God who sanctifies men, and the action of men who offer worship to God. The same is true of signs and symbols taken from the social life of man: washing and anointing, breaking bread and sharing the cup can express the sanctifying presence of God and man's gratitude toward his Creator.

1149 The great religions of mankind witness, often impressively, to this cosmic and symbolic meaning of religious rites. The liturgy of the Church presupposes, integrates and sanctifies elements from creation and human culture, conferring on them the dignity of signs of grace, of the new creation in Jesus Christ.

44 posted on 04/23/2012 1:42:20 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Cronos
>>Read the bit about honor your father and your mother. Jesus did and does honor His mother...<<

Let’s let Jesus speak for Himself. Jesus didn’t agree that Mary was to be venerated above others.

Jesus disagreed with the words spoken about Mary and said those who believed were the ones who were blessed.

Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,

Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.

Further more, when Jesus was a child He rebuked His mother when she went looking for Him. Then you may remember when He made the statement “who is my mother and who are my brethren”.

Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

So where is the veneration the Catholics like to bestow?

45 posted on 04/23/2012 2:48:53 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
>>Mary is in heaven (or do you doubt that?), so add those two ...<<

Whoever said she wasn’t? No special place of veneration however. See my last post to you.

46 posted on 04/23/2012 2:51:49 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: BigCinBigD

Lots of Christians aren’t in communion with the Roman Catholic Church; most of them happen to be in communion with some other organized religion. Why someone would claim to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but to disagree with its fundmental teachings is more than a little irrational.


47 posted on 04/23/2012 2:59:48 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Cronos
>>or lets take another one — Ba’al — that’s canaanite for Lord. So, ya saying that to call God Lord is pagan?<<

Oh, we could get deep into where that name “lord” came from and how it began to be used wrongly. I’ll just let God speak for Himself and leave it at that.

Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.

17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

Let’s just say the correct names of Yahúweh and Yahushúa will once again be used in the not too distant future.

48 posted on 04/23/2012 3:07:40 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Cronos
"Nay rather..."

Sorry Bear, we've been through this before. The Greek word used was μενοῦνγε (menounge). It is used three times in New Testament Scripture; Luke 11:28, Romans 9:20, and Romans 10:18. The closest English idiomatic translation is "of course" or "and even more so".

"The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women."

Been through this one too. The Hebrew word used to describe Jael as blessed was a present tense verb. Jael lived about 1,000 years before Christ. No where does Scripture declare that Jael would remain the most blessed woman to ever live. It simply states that she was the most blessed in Israel at that time.

Idiomatically, when Mary is declared Blessed among women it means that within the group of all women Mary is the blessed one.

49 posted on 04/23/2012 3:12:52 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Natural Law
>>Throughout Scripture a pillar is used as a symbol of God's presence and law.<<

Um, NO. It was a cloud for Israel. Then there is the Shekinah but no pillar as such.

50 posted on 04/23/2012 3:13:18 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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