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Essays for Lent/Easter: Salvation Outside the Church?
StayCatholic.com ^ | 2001 | Sebastian R. Fama

Posted on 04/23/2012 6:04:14 PM PDT by Salvation

 

Salvation Outside the Church?

by Sebastian R. Fama

One of the Catholic Church's most controversial teachings is the doctrine of "No Salvation outside the Church." The controversy stems from a misunderstanding of what the Church really means by this. The doctrine has been stated a number of times throughout Church History. One such time was in 1302 when Pope Boniface VIII wrote the following in "Unum Sanctum:" "That there is one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…. In her there is 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism'" (Ephesians 4:5) (no. 1).

It appears that the Church is saying that only Catholics can go to heaven or that Catholics are better than everyone else. However, neither view would be correct. The Church is simply acknowledging the fact that Jesus formulated one plan of salvation. If that is true, then it follows that all other plans are false. The Church is merely declaring that she believes her teachings to be true. Certainly that should be expected of any religion. After all, if you didn't believe that your teachings were true, why would you believe them?

But if only the Catholic Church has the complete plan of salvation, how would it be possible for a non-Catholic to get to heaven? Vatican Council II addressed this point in its "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium)," "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation" (no. 16). In short, those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.

Ironically, many Bible Christians have their own version of "No Salvation outside the Church". They believe that unless a person accepts Christ as personal Lord and Savior he or she is headed for hell. No allowances are made for people who don't know any better. The Catholic Church rightly portrays God as both just and merciful as opposed to legalistic.

Traditionalists view God in the same way that Bible Christians do. They believe that God makes no exceptions. Do it right or you are lost. In this case if you are not Catholic you have no chance for salvation. They reject Vatican II's qualification of the doctrine. They contend that Vatican II ignored earlier councils and introduced something new. Thus it is invalid and to be ignored. This of course is false. The Church's teachings before and after the council are the same.

Prior to Vatican II, children were taught the faith from the Baltimore Catechisms. In Catechism number 3, on page 106 question 185, and page 39 question 69, you will find the following:

185. Who is punished in hell?

Those are punished in hell who die in mortal sin; they are deprived of the vision of God  and suffer dreadful torments, especially that of fire, for all eternity.

69. What three things are necessary to make a sin mortal?

To make a sin mortal these three things are necessary: First, the thought, desire, word, action, or omission must be seriously wrong; second, the sinner must know that it is seriously wrong; third, the sinner must fully consent to it.

So only a mortal sin can damn you to hell. And in order to be guilty of a mortal sin, you must know that you are committing one! Hence, if you don't know, you are not guilty. Jesus Himself teaches this very thing in John 9:40-41 where He says to the Pharisees: "Some of the Pharisees near Him heard this, and they said to Him, 'Are we also blind?' Jesus said to them, 'If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say 'we see,' your guilt remains.'" In other words because they knew better they were guilty of sin. Had they not known better, they would not have been guilty.

Prior to Vatican II Pope Pius IX, in his encyclical "On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)," said the following:

We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment (no. 7).

He said essentially the same thing in "On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam);"

It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord (no. 7).

The invincibly ignorant would not include those who think that all religions are the same. That would be indifference. Jesus said, "I am the way" (John 14:6), not a way. The person who is invincibly ignorant honestly believes, though erroneously, that he is going the right way.

St. Augustine's position is also consistent with Vatican II. "When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body…. All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:28 [39] [A.D. 394]).

Clement of Rome, a contemporary of the Apostles, wrote, "Let us go through all generations and learn that in generation after generation the Master has given a place of repentance for those willing to turn to him. Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God" (Letter to the Corinthians, no. 7 [AD 95]).

Paul clearly teaches that we are judged by our intentions. "Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God" (1 Corinthians 4:5).

He expands on this in Romans 2:13-16, "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the Law do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."

Their conflicting thoughts would accuse them if they suspected but ignored the fact that God required them to be members of His Church. As Vatican II put it in it's "Decree on the Church's Missionary Activity (Ad Gentes Divinitus)," "Hence, those cannot be saved, who knowing that the Catholic Church was founded through Jesus Christ, by God, as something necessary, still refuse to enter it or remain in it" (no. 7). Their conflicting thoughts would excuse them if they truly sought God but were unaware of this requirement.

Dissenting Catholics, Traditionalist or otherwise, would do well to read the letter of the Holy Office concerning Fr. Leonard Feeney, who dissented on this issue back in 1949. It states in part, "But this dogma [No Salvation outside the Church] is to be understood as the Church itself understands it. For our Savior did not leave it to private judgment to explain what is contained in the deposit of faith, but to the doctrinal authority of the Church."

Copyright © 2001 StayCatholic.com



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; salvation
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For Further Study

The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church  (Free)
Books -
Salvation Outside the Church by Fr. Peter Stravinskas


1 posted on 04/23/2012 6:04:19 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All

Please read this CAREFULLY all the way through before making your comments.


2 posted on 04/23/2012 6:06:20 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic Ping — there is a lot to discuss here.


3 posted on 04/23/2012 6:08:24 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

There’s only one requirement for salvation according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31).


4 posted on 04/23/2012 6:12:06 PM PDT by PapaNew
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To: PapaNew

And the sins you might commit?

Sin separates you from Jesus Christ.


5 posted on 04/23/2012 6:14:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Scripture: Holy Bible
Author: God
Book: Jonah
Chapter: 2
Verse: 9
“Salvation comes from the Lord”


6 posted on 04/23/2012 6:14:30 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: Salvation
Essays for Lent/Easter: Salvation Outside the Church?
The Question of Universal Salvation: Will All Be Saved?
"There Can Be No Rupture in Salvation History" [Benedict XVI to Jewish Community in Germany]
The Catholic Teaching on Salvation by Faith Alone (Catholic / Orthodox Caucus)
Promising Salvation to Non-Catholics: A Sin against Charity
On Being Sober and Serious in Seeking Salvation
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Benedict XVI at Angelus: Mary's mission of salvation and intercession continues..
Finders Keepers? - The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical.
Fresh Embrace of Everlasting Salvation [New Mass Translation Does Away With "Barbecue Talk"]

Marriage is instrument of salvation for society, declares Benedict XVI
Catholic and Protestant "Similarities" on Faith, Faith Alone, Salvation...
Radio Replies Second Volume - Salvation of the Soul
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: A Biblical Portrait
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Salvation: "Being Saved"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Catholic Response to "Are You Saved?"
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Knowledge of Salvation
A note from Roy Schoeman... (author of 'Salvation is from the Jews')
Radio Replies First Volume - Grace and salvation
Radio Replies First Volume - "Outside the Church no salvation"

Salvation - Are You Saved?
No Salvation Outside the Church
Prayer the Great Means of Salvation: Ch.1: The Necessity of Prayer, Sect. 3 Invocation of the Saints
Prayer the Great Means of Salvation: Chapter 1: The Necessity of Prayer, Section 2
Prayer: The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection Ch. 1: The Necessity of Prayer, Section 1
What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
Christian, I Presume? (Salvation) [Ecumenical]
Rock Solid: The Salvation History of the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]
Who Can Be Saved?
Grace, Faith, and Works

Getting in Touch With Reality (good character and behavior as a ticket to Heaven)
My Personal Savior
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Extra ecclesiam - Outside the Church there is no salvation.M.a
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation? (Part 2)
Good Will Equals Salvation? (Did the pope say non christians could be saved - part 1)
The Experience of the Salvation of Christ Today
Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope
Worthy Is the Lamb?
Limbo and the Hope of Salvation

7 posted on 04/23/2012 6:15:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BereanBrain

Yes, Salvation comes from God.

But did you read the article about the unknowing?

You know, so that puts you in a different place with the Lord.


8 posted on 04/23/2012 6:16:55 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Essays for Lent/Easter: Salvation Outside the Church?
Essays for Lent/Easter: The Words of Consecration
Essays for Lent/Easter: Traditionalists [Catholic Caucus]
Essays for Lent/Easter: Women's Ordination
Essays for Lent/Easter: Abortion
Essays for Lent/Easter: Annulment

Essays for Lent/Easter: Divorce and Remarriage
Essays for Lent: Marriage
Essays for Lent: Natural Family Planning
Essays for Lent: Contraception
Essays for Lent: Abstinence
Essays for Lent: The Rapture
Essays for Lent: Call No Man Father
Essays for Lent: Scapulars Medals and Relics
Essays for Lent: Statues and Holy Pictures
Essays for Lent: The Rosary

Essays for Lent: The Assumption
Essays for Lent: The Immaculate Conception
Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
Essays for Lent: Praying to Saints
Essays for Lent: Indulgences
Essays for Lent: Purgatory
Essays for Lent: Confession
Essays for Lent: The Eucharist
Essays for Lent: The Mass
Essays for Lent: Baptism

Essays for Lent: Justification
Essays for Lent: Tradition
Essays for Lent: Scripture Alone
Essays for Lent: The Canon of Scripture
Essays for Lent: Papal Infallibility
Essays for Lent: The Pope
Essays for Lent: The Church
Essays for Lent: The Bible
Essays for Lent: The Trinity
Essays for Lent: Creationism or Evolution?

9 posted on 04/23/2012 6:20:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Douay-Rheims Bible


10 posted on 04/23/2012 6:30:55 PM PDT by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
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To: Colorado Cowgirl

Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying

“Lord, Lord” will inherit


11 posted on 04/23/2012 6:33:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Colorado Cowgirl

Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains


12 posted on 04/23/2012 6:34:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
But if only the Catholic Church has the complete plan of salvation, how would it be possible for a non-Catholic to get to heaven? Vatican Council II addressed this point in its "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium)," "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation" (no. 16). In short, those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.

Ironically, many Bible Christians have their own version of "No Salvation outside the Church". They believe that unless a person accepts Christ as personal Lord and Savior he or she is headed for hell. No allowances are made for people who don't know any better. The Catholic Church rightly portrays God as both just and merciful – as opposed to legalistic.

I did read it all the way through. No matter how this is spun, the magesterium of the Roman Catholic Church HAS admitted error. Not only on this all important issue but in others as well. It was NOT merely a "misunderstanding" that caused people to insist that salvation can only come through membership in the Roman Catholic Church and obedience to her - it was held for centuries and so-called "heretics" were murdered by the condemnation that they led people away from the Catholic Church and had "stolen their souls".

Not only this, but the current explanation for the state of souls who "through no fault of their own" do not know about THE Church are given a pass by God if they were "good". How far from Scriptural truth can presumed knowledgeable theologians get??? Scripture clearly states that Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life and NO ONE comes to the Father but through Him. Now, are these experts in Christianity calling Jesus a liar? And how about the TRUTH that we are NOT saved by our righteousness but by the righteousness of Christ? Sure, babies, children unable to grasp the truth yet, the mentally disabled and others incapable of understanding the Gospel ARE covered by the grace of God and will not be sent to Hell - something BTW that the Catholic Church only recently recanted regarding the unborn aborted or babies who die before baptism. God is merciful, not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. NO ONE is saved because they are "good" because there are NONE that are good - ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter how it boils down, the Catholic Church is AGAIN trying to sell the idea that IT is the only way to salvation and/or that those who are good enough, try their "best", will be saved by God's grace. Sorry, there is way too much Scripture to counter that false doctrine. It starts with the truth that the "church" is the body of believers in Christ, ergo, all those who come to saving faith in Christ ARE part of the body, the church. It is not being baptized in it first and obedience to all its rules before that happens.

I'm not sure what authority this author has to be making such statements about the RCC, but he has shown himself wrong a number of times in this series you have been posting. Do you stand by what he claims as well? Or is this just one man's opinion and it can be pondered but not assumed to be factual?

13 posted on 04/23/2012 6:43:47 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” I John 5:12-13.


I found the article quite interesting, especially since I'm not a Catholic. Similar to the age of accountability for those who were allowed into the promise land.
14 posted on 04/23/2012 6:48:00 PM PDT by Idaho_Cowboy (Give me liberty, or give me death!)
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To: Salvation
Congratulations, you just made a case for not baptizing till the death bed (which was very popular in the early Church).

Most Christians believe in no salvation outside the church. The issue is what does “Church” mean. The Catholic position has slid all over the place in the last few hundred years. In the past, the Eastern Orthodox were viewed as schismatics and outside the Church. As were all of what are popular called Protestant churches (though some of the Lutheran synods were in a odd state till after Trent, but that is another issue).

Now the old tradition did say that if you were born, say, a Russian Orthodox, you MIGHT be saved if you never committed a mortal sin IF you had no real knowledge of what the Catholic Church claimed. BUT that was viewed as a very slight chance. The current view is much looser than that.

We shall see how this doctrine changes. I suspect it will be cut down to a much more narrow thing as the old liberals die off.

15 posted on 04/23/2012 6:49:16 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Salvation
>> In short, those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.<<

So they really don’t need Jesus? Hmmmm

16 posted on 04/23/2012 6:54:23 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums

Thanks for reading the entire article. I think the author is still addressing the traditionalists. See the last paragraph.


17 posted on 04/23/2012 6:55:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

John 14:2 springs to mind, as does Matthew 7:7. (Hey, I can use bible verses, just not very good at it!)

Our Lord is one of love and compassion. One who loves and trusts Him and walks in his path will not be denied, even if he knows not the Lord the way we of the Church know him.

I cannot know the mind of God. Heck, I cannot know the mind of the person right next to me. I expect a lot of confused and lost people on Judgement Day, who say “I went to church every Sunday!” yet who were not filled with His grace and light during the week.

As much as I love, respect and admire our Church, our Holy Fathers, the martyrs and the Blessed Vigin and our long history, this is one “heresy” I will not recant. I cannot. It is a question that was settled in my mind a long time ago after much prayer and contemplation.


18 posted on 04/23/2012 6:55:51 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: Salvation
But if only the Catholic Church has the complete plan of salvation, how would it be possible for a non-Catholic to get to heaven? Vatican Council II addressed this point in its "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium)," "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation" (no. 16). In short, those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.

Ironically, many Bible Christians have their own version of "No Salvation outside the Church". They believe that unless a person accepts Christ as personal Lord and Savior he or she is headed for hell. No allowances are made for people who don't know any better. The Catholic Church rightly portrays God as both just and merciful – as opposed to legalistic.

I did read it all the way through. No matter how this is spun, the magesterium of the Roman Catholic Church HAS admitted error. Not only on this all important issue but in others as well. It was NOT merely a "misunderstanding" that caused people to insist that salvation can only come through membership in the Roman Catholic Church and obedience to her - it was held for centuries and so-called "heretics" were murdered by the condemnation that they led people away from the Catholic Church and had "stolen their souls".

Not only this, but the current explanation for the state of souls who "through no fault of their own" do not know about THE Church are given a pass by God if they were "good". How far from Scriptural truth can presumed knowledgeable theologians get??? Scripture clearly states that Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life and NO ONE comes to the Father but through Him. Now, are these experts in Christianity calling Jesus a liar? And how about the TRUTH that we are NOT saved by our righteousness but by the righteousness of Christ? Sure, babies, children unable to grasp the truth yet, the mentally disabled and others incapable of understanding the Gospel ARE covered by the grace of God and will not be sent to Hell - something BTW that the Catholic Church only recently recanted regarding the unborn aborted or babies who die before baptism. God is merciful, not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. NO ONE is saved because they are "good" because there are NONE that are good - ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No matter how it boils down, the Catholic Church is AGAIN trying to sell the idea that IT is the only way to salvation and/or that those who are good enough, try their "best", will be saved by God's grace. Sorry, there is way too much Scripture to counter that false doctrine. It starts with the truth that the "church" is the body of believers in Christ, ergo, all those who come to saving faith in Christ ARE part of the body, the church. It is not being baptized in it first and obedience to all its rules before that happens.

I'm not sure what authority this author has to be making such statements about the RCC, but he has shown himself wrong a number of times in this series you have been posting. Do you stand by what he claims as well? Or is this just one man's opinion and it can be pondered but not assumed to be factual?

19 posted on 04/23/2012 7:01:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

I apologize for the double post.


20 posted on 04/23/2012 7:05:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

St. Paul:

Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling


21 posted on 04/23/2012 7:06:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PapaNew

Matthew25: 31-46, The Judgment of Nations lets people know who will get into Heaven.

Love God above all things & your neighbor as yourself is the commandment.

A belief in Jesus Christ has to be more than talk in the ordinary route to salvation.

The good thief on The Cross praised Jesus, believed in Jesus and had his sins forgiven. (The good-thief suffering death on the cross offered his prayer directly to Jesus Christ.) (The bad thief cursed God and died.)

There are plenty of other of Biblical passages explaining that God is looking doers of the word & just not talkers of the word.

Prior to death, perfect contrition will bring forgiveness of sins.

There is a ‘final exam’ on Judgment Day. The question & the answer is in the Bible.
Q. ‘Do you love me?’
A. ‘Yes Lord, you know I do!’

It’s not possible to deceive God. It’s always pointed-out in regards to the passage cited (Acts15: 31) that there is >more to that passage than simple belief. As beelzebub & his minions believe in Jesus Christ. They couldn’t pass the final exam so they are out of luck.


22 posted on 04/23/2012 7:08:54 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: Salvation
I asked Jesus to forgive my sins and take me to heaven when I die, Aug. 15, 1981, at Eddie Klein's kitchen table.

Did I get saved? (salvation)

Am I still saved?

23 posted on 04/23/2012 7:10:16 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Salvation
Because...

"...this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10:12, 14.

As a result...

"...if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Romans 5:17.

Therefore...

"...he hath said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. Hebrews 13:5.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, the New Testament, declares that if you have received Jesus Christ, you have the (unearned) gift of righteousness, your sins past, present, and future have been forgiven, and washed by his blood. You are now the righteousness of God by grace.

24 posted on 04/23/2012 7:10:47 PM PDT by PapaNew
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To: Salvation
Jesus:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:18)

25 posted on 04/23/2012 7:11:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation
Jesus:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

26 posted on 04/23/2012 7:13:03 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation

“if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains” What version is this? Your Douay-Rheims Bible says: For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins. The NIV says: If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.
The key word is “willfully” or “deliberately” keep on sinning! Now is that something a Christian would do?


27 posted on 04/23/2012 7:13:57 PM PDT by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
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To: CynicalBear
What do you mean by "Hmmmm?"

Consider the following scenario:

CynicalBear is born not some time in the 1900's in the United States (I assume) with access to bibles and preachers and internet forums and what have you.

Rather, he is born CynicalRhinoTusk in a small jungle village in Africa in say, 1077 AD. Will you ever hear the word of God or be contacted by a clergyman of any type? Doubtful. So you will you ever be a Christian? Not likely.

So what happens to CynicalRhinoTusk? After all, he has never known Jesus, at least not in the conventional sense.

Hmmm...

28 posted on 04/23/2012 7:15:31 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (The brain is the weapon; everything else is just accessories. --FReeper Joe Brower)
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To: gghd
So, here I am on a battlefield and I just saw my buddy lose his head to an RPG, and I cursed like a marine for about 35 minutes, ripping everything resembling an enemy human being with the weapon I have ... (must'a took out a dozen or so) and my conscience (Holy Spirit?) was in my head, "Stop this, it isn't right", and I ignored it for my buddy's sake, before I took a shot in MY heart, and now I'm dead ...

Where will I go?

29 posted on 04/23/2012 7:16:37 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Salvation
St. Paul:

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:17-19)

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4)

30 posted on 04/23/2012 7:17:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation

but did you READ Romans chapter 1, starting at verse 18?

After you do, then you can answer your own question about the unknowing.


31 posted on 04/23/2012 7:20:23 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: Salvation
St. Paul: Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling

Work "out" NOT "for".

32 posted on 04/23/2012 7:21:00 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: knarf

Do you still walk in the way of the Lord?

Pray and give thanks? Confess your daily trespasses? Reverence the most High? Live your belief rather than just talking about it?

If yes, I figure you are still saved. If no, you might want to fix that.

I used to be a Protestant (not a good one, but I accepted Christ into my life as my savior.) It sort of lapsed after a while, when what C.S Lewis called the honeymoon period was over.

Let me give you a very poor analogy. You shower every day because you get dirty. Our saviour is not a magic shower that cleans you from sin for good - you still need to bathe in His Grace daily, because you will sin each and every day.

I rejected Protestantism for that reason. People saying “Oh, I am saved,” then carrying on as normal. The Church doesn’t let you do that. You must examine your sins and atone for them.

I hope and indeed expect you personally do so and I fully expect to meet you in the fullness of time under His banner. Different battalions maybe, but under the same General.


33 posted on 04/23/2012 7:31:46 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: boatbums

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2875690/posts?page=21#21

I said “out”

What are you talking about?


34 posted on 04/23/2012 7:37:05 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: EnglishCon
"The Church doesn’t let you do that"

And how does "The Church" accomplish this?

If there is anything men do to get saved or stay saved, Jesus is not needed.

I'm saved because of what He did and He is the one that has my sins from the east to west remembered no more ... past, present and future.

35 posted on 04/23/2012 7:37:19 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Salvation
I said “out” What are you talking about?

I know you said "out" because that is what the verse says. What I said is St. Paul said to "Work out your own salvation..." not "Work FOR your own salvation...". Can you understand the difference? Some people quote that verse as if it is saying everyone has to work for their own salvation, but it is not what he said. Working your salvation OUT does not mean you work FOR it. You cannot work out or exercise something you don't already have.

36 posted on 04/23/2012 7:44:47 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: knarf

Well, we have confession, for a start. And believe me, confession is rough. Most Priests know all the evasions and half truths and drill right down to the reasons and underlying thoughts.

It is a tool to focus on your daily sins. Not saying it is something you need, but it is something I need. Men are not involved - when you confess you are talking to the Lord. You just get a response you cannot ignore.

So you are implying that because you were saved in ‘81, you would be forgiven if you murdered someone in cold blood tomorrow? You see, this is why I joined the Church.
Our Lord saves. He also said an impossibility for us - “Go forth and Sin no more.”

He knew that. Remember “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?”


37 posted on 04/23/2012 7:45:56 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: boatbums

I have heard and seen people say that and it steams me.

Salvation is purely through our Jesus. You can no more gain salvation by good works and “following the laws” than you can get to Mars by standing in a field and wishing hard.

Yet ....

We are commanded to walk with the Lord. That means good works, charity, witnessing and living (and sometimes dying) for our faith.
It is not working FOR our salvation. It is something we must do BECAUSE we are saved.

Easy to get flipped over.


38 posted on 04/23/2012 7:58:54 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon
I left Catholicism when, after a long discussion with a Jesuit, regarding my father's destination after he had died, resulted in "Jude" (not Fr. Jude ... just Jude .. (Newman Center) .. ) admitting he didn't know where my father was (as good and staunch a Catholic if there ever was one), and nobody could know, because no one had ever come back and told us .... and I realized ... he was no closer to God than I was.

He was more than likely in Purgatory and would get out .... eventually ... but no one knows when)

So ... a 33.33% chance my father was in Heaven and a 66.66% chance he wasn't.

Sounded like, "Good luck kid, I hope you make it"


Catholicism ceased to be a valid politic at that point.

39 posted on 04/23/2012 8:00:37 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: EnglishCon

Couple of thoughts from one who is neither Catholic nor Protestant: too many forget that little command about repenting. I’ve known some Protestants who think that since they’ve made a profession that Christ is Lord, that they now have a free ticket to sin. I’ve also known some Catholics who think that if they go and confess a sin and say a few hail Mary’s, they can continue in their sin (another “free ticket”)

My thoughts would be, as another previously mentioned, we work our our salvation, but part of that is by repenting from those sins we fall prey to, realizing that no one has a free ticket to sin, that we fight daily to live as God would desire, and have comfort in knowing that when we do mess up, we confess, and know that he is righteous and just in his forgiveness. No amount of good work does it. No membership in a particular church or denomination. Only the blood of Christ.


40 posted on 04/23/2012 8:06:26 PM PDT by The Bard (http://www.myfbc.com)
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To: knarf

Catholicism isn’t politics.

You are still a Catholic and can come back at any time. Find a priest you can talk with and get your questions answered.

On the heaven, purgatory or hell question — no one knows. The priest was right.

But read some of the NDE threads — and you will be surprised at what these near death experinces revealed to people. Many have converted to Catholicim because of them.


41 posted on 04/23/2012 8:12:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: knarf

OH {Censored}!!!

I am so sorry. Did not and could not know. That is about the cruelest thing anyone can say, ever.

May your father be seated at the right hand of God, FRiend, and may your own path to Him be smooth.
Our Lord and Saviour judge with mercy and love.


42 posted on 04/23/2012 8:15:24 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: knarf

“I’m saved because of what He did and He is the one that has my sins from the east to west remembered no more ... past, present and future.”
Your second birth was Aug. 15, 1981, at Eddie Klein’s kitchen table. Am I still saved? YES! The RCC didn’t give it to you and they can’t take it away, Amen.


43 posted on 04/23/2012 8:15:59 PM PDT by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
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To: The Bard

You repent. Honest, heart and bone deep repentance. You accept the Lord into your life.

Guess what.

It ain’t like buying a lightning rod. One purchase does not make you safe for both life and the hereafter.
You still have to check it is grounded, that it is the tallest part of your property (soul) and still, lightning may strike some other part of the house.

Every last thing you do must be examined under the commands of the Lord. No evasions, no “good intentions” (we have been told where they lead!) just under the Word.

I bought a lightning rod when I accepted the Lord into my life. I failed to maintain it and got struck hard because I did not maintain it.

I blamed Him. The one who gave me the lightning rod, not the idiot who put it up and forgot that it requires maintainence.


44 posted on 04/23/2012 8:31:03 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon; knarf
Salvation is purely through our Jesus. You can no more gain salvation by good works and “following the laws” than you can get to Mars by standing in a field and wishing hard. Yet .... We are commanded to walk with the Lord. That means good works, charity, witnessing and living (and sometimes dying) for our faith. It is not working FOR our salvation. It is something we must do BECAUSE we are saved. Easy to get flipped over.

Of course living a holy life in obedience to the Lord is what we are saved FOR, For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10) When you say it is something we "must" do because we are saved, then you get into the quandary Knarf is talking about. You just told him in the prior post:

So you are implying that because you were saved in ‘81, you would be forgiven if you murdered someone in cold blood tomorrow? You see, this is why I joined the Church. Our Lord saves. He also said an impossibility for us - “Go forth and Sin no more.”

Make up your mind. If we are saved by the grace of God THROUGH faith and that NOT of ourselves as Ephesians 2:8,9 says, then you cannot make salvation conditional upon how we live our lives after we receive Christ. Either he saves us by His shed blood for our sins and we are not condemned or we somehow must do things in order to stay saved, which is really no different than saying we must do good works to BE saved. And if we can do enough good works to merit eternal life, then Christ died for no reason, in vain.

You stated that what turned you off about "Protestants" is those who "got saved" and then lived like hell and showed no evidence of being Christ's. I can certainly sympathize, I saw the same thing in Catholicism. Sure they teach you must be sorry for your sins, go to confession, do penance, try to do better, but many people used that as an excuse to live like hell because they knew all they had to do was go to confession and everything would be okay. Neither one is Biblically correct. A person who genuinely trusts in Jesus Christ to save him, and surrenders his life to the Lord in faith, is born again - which means he is reborn as a child of God and a new spirit nature resides with the old carnal one. The Holy Spirit is also given to us as an "earnest of our inheritance" or like a down payment as a guarantee of Heaven.

The new nature will contend with the old as we grow in our sanctification and we learn to heed the discipline and chastisement of our Heavenly Father. The more mature our faith, the better we become at being conformed to the image of Christ - what God is preparing us for. When we sin, and we will, our close relationship with the Lord is hindered and when we confess our sins to Him - come clean because we KNOW He knows - He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. BUT, while we may be in between the commission of sin and the confession of it, we have NOT lost our salvation - NO, because our salvation was not based upon our being good or deserving it in the first place, was it? Our sins are not paid for by anything we can do - if it were, we would spend eternity separated from God. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, his precious blood is what paid our penalty for sin and that same grace KEEPS us saved all the way to Heaven.

That is the amazing grace of God! That by His mercy we are not condemned, and by His grace we are made righteous - as righteous as Christ - because we are found IN Him. The grace of God goes even further than that by adopting us into His family and as children of the Most High we are secure in His love. Jesus said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)

45 posted on 04/23/2012 8:38:25 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: knarf

Danged, if I know. That’s up to God. Read Catholic teaching. God decides fault. God will decide whether you get into heaven or not.

If you are curious about suicide & Catholic teaching. It’s in the Catholic Catechism. 2280, 2281, 2282, 2283. The Vatican has a website & you can look in a Catholic Catechism for >free to you. (All of us Catholics donate to support the Church. >By prayers, fasting, alms giving (money).


46 posted on 04/23/2012 9:03:53 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: Salvation

It seems LG 16 speaks more to the unchurched than to the Protestants that the replies take up.

(Lumen Gentium),” “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation” (no. 16).

What about LG 14:

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

This does not seem to get the broad reading of “Catholic Church” Fama implies when it follows:

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

As is normal on these pages, it is not invincible ignorance, nor the un-evangelized, but fellow Christians that get poked in the eye.


47 posted on 04/23/2012 9:11:34 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: WhoHuhWhat

When reading Catholic teachings. The basics must be understood >first.

God decides >fault. God decides who gets into Heaven.

Sin is what keeps people out of Heaven. God gives All people free-will & sufficient Grace to get into Heaven.

Sin requires 1. Willfulness, 2. Full Knowledge & 3. Serious matter (for mortal sins).

On Judgment Day, we will not argue with Jesus Christ like lawyers. The question & answer for the final exam is in the Bible:

Q. ‘Do you love me?’
A. ‘Yes Lord, you know I do!’

It’s not possible to deceive God.


48 posted on 04/23/2012 9:54:07 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

Yes gghd, we know the Judge, but not the judgement. But the delineation of mortal sin is an argument onto itself and not a part of my post. Yes, God will not be deceived.(?)


49 posted on 04/23/2012 10:21:23 PM PDT by WhoHuhWhat
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To: boatbums

It is 6 AM here and I am falling asleep, but I’ll give it a shot.

You are quite correct that we cannot earn our way to salvation. It is a gift, freely given, that all we need do is accept.
That, to me, is a cop out. I can accept the Lord into my heart then go on a killing spree with a clear conscience.

To me, once you accept the gift of salvation, you have a duty to attempt to live up to it. We can not, as we are only human, but we both can and should try.


50 posted on 04/23/2012 10:37:24 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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