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Female Episcopal Priest Visits a Mormon Temple
The Mormon Dialogue ^ | April 23,,2012 | Danielle Tumminio

Posted on 04/24/2012 1:28:27 PM PDT by Jeff Head

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To: Elsie

Yeah only goats can have shenanigans...


101 posted on 04/24/2012 7:38:20 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Elsie
Weddings and funerals get the most UNBELIEVERS into church. I've been to both where there were ALTAR calls after/during the ceremonies! No church (in it's right mind) would exclude any unbeliever from attending any service on it's grounds!

They have a right to establish their own rules of ceremony within the church. No one is holding a gun and saying you must marry here and as Jeff said evidently some opt for public {civil} wedding and later have another ceremony in the church. Marriage vows are about and between the couple and GOD. It's THEIR wedding remember?

102 posted on 04/24/2012 7:38:20 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: svcw

and kneelers in pretty pastel shades with lilies and roses ???

He’s the Lily of the Valley

He’s the Rose of Sharon


103 posted on 04/24/2012 7:42:29 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Elsie

Do you wear the garment both night and day
____________________________________________

I’d slap any pervert who asked me about my undies...


104 posted on 04/24/2012 7:44:35 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

“Would I feel God’s presence in this space, even though it’s not a space that’s sacred for me?”

from the article...

I can answer, NO!!! God is not present in this crazy
sect. Absolutely not. Pray for the LDS and the RLDS,
their split to convert to to the true faith.

The title should tell you, two falsehoods, Female
Episcopal Priest and Mormon Temple.


105 posted on 04/24/2012 7:52:00 PM PDT by stpio
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THX 1138


106 posted on 04/24/2012 7:52:22 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Tennessee Nana; svcw

Well, I don’t know what they were thinking about the white or slightly off white carpeting. The place was like a very nice hotel. Absolutely nothing sacred about it. Pleasant, but sterile. No real character.

When the tour guide (who was an amiable twit) took us to a room with two large mirrors facing one another across the room (either the sealing room or the celestial room, I can’t remember which), he said the mirrors were to remind people about their coming eternity with God (i.e. the two facing mirrors show reflections within reflections within reflections, etc.). All I could think of was, “No looking in those mirrors would remind you of how YOU’RE going to be a god for eternity.”


107 posted on 04/24/2012 8:15:52 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

I was in a room like that once on Santa Monica pier, they called it the “fun house”, it didn’t have white carpet though, just concrete floors.


108 posted on 04/24/2012 8:22:10 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Tennessee Nana

http://www.wham1180.com/pages/boblonsberry.html?article=10037569


109 posted on 04/24/2012 9:14:25 PM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: BlueMoose

First mormonism is NOT a Christian religion.
Second it is magic underwear because mormons (15% of them anyway) wear it to protect them from something or other.


110 posted on 04/24/2012 10:06:36 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

bbb


111 posted on 04/24/2012 10:21:07 PM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: cva66snipe
They have a right to establish their own rules of ceremony within the church.

No one said they didn't.

It's just merely been pointed out how UN-christian the MORMONs are.

Is there a law against THAT?

112 posted on 04/25/2012 2:46:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
They can wait in the parking lot, as it won't take very long.


Officiator: Brother ______, [naming groom] and Sister ______, [naming bride] please join hands in the Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.

Marriage Couple: Joins hands in the "Patriarchal Grip, or Sure Sign of the Nail." This token is given by clasping the right hands, interlocking the little fingers and placing the tip of the forefinger upon the center of the wrist. No clothing should interfere with the contact of the forefinger upon the wrist.

Officiator: Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Groom: Yes.

Officiator: Sister ______ do you take brother ______ by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Bride: Yes.

Officiator: By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

113 posted on 04/25/2012 2:53:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: BlueMoose
Bob; you need a bit more knowledge.

Why do I say this?

That is a Christian religion founded in 1830 in upstate New York.

It is about as 'christian' as Rastafarian.

You continue talking about other religions having distinctive clothing, trying to make the point that MORMONs should NOT be taken to task over theirs.

Well, Bob; none of those other religions make the claim that only THEY are the TRUE christians and that only THEY have the CORRECT rituals and procedures to get a soul into Heaven. (the top level anyway)

So you see Bob, it is not actually the GARMENT (with it's purloined MASONic symbols) that is getting mocked; but the ENTIRE structure and form of MORMONism; a NON-christian cult (That has STOLEN the name of Jesus and boldly emblazoned it onto it's buildings.)

114 posted on 04/25/2012 3:06:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

http://thesludgelord.blogspot.com/2011/09/sure-sign-of-nail.html


115 posted on 04/25/2012 3:10:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AnTiw1

Take reading material so you have something to do while you wait for the wedding to be over. Say, “Mountain Meadows Massacre”. HA


116 posted on 04/25/2012 6:12:42 AM PDT by NEMDF
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To: NEMDF

oh Snap!


117 posted on 04/25/2012 6:38:47 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw; Jeff Head

[svcw to Jeff Head]: “Your experiences are so very different than what most people experience and they sure are different than mine.”


They certainly are different from mine as well. Although very “nice” to your face, the Mormons I know consider theirs the one and only way, and if you don’t agree (ESPECIALLY if you once were a practicing Mormon) you are to be reviled and shunned (while they will call it “pitied”).

If the average Mormon were as Jeff Head describes, I doubt it would be so easy to find the multitude of ex-Mormon sites and literature out there. All of those people can’t be completely crazy.


118 posted on 04/25/2012 7:25:28 AM PDT by freedomlover (Make sure you're in love - before you move in the heavy stuff)
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To: Jeff Head

Thanks for the ping, Jeff.

FReegards


119 posted on 04/25/2012 7:35:16 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Jeff Head
Female Episcopal Priest

Liberal and most likely gay....

120 posted on 04/25/2012 7:51:27 AM PDT by dragonblustar (PETA. President Eating Tasty Animals)
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To: dragonblustar

When Obama says he’d like a hot dog; he MEANS it!


121 posted on 04/25/2012 8:17:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw

I am truly sorry if you have been mistreated, shunned, or belittled. That is not good coming from anyone, and particularly not family or people who consider and call themselves Christian.

As I have stated, I have been a member now for 42 years this September. In that time I have been to, been involved with, and served in wards and branches in all the following areas:

Denton, TX
Provo, UT
Karsruhe, Germany
Feurerbach, Germany
Mannheim, Germany
Worms, Germany
Kaufbeeuren, Germany
Brea, CA
Fontana, CA
Houston, TX
Spring, TX
Arlington, TX
San Jose, CA
Livermore, CA
Gainsville, TX
Milfrod, OH
Dillon, MT
Nephi, UT
Taipai, ROC
New Delhi, India
Boise, ID
Meridian, ID
Emmett, ID

Certainly I have seen wrong doing, and cases where people turned away from someone who may have showed up smelling badly of tobacco or alcohol...in all cases I have tried to remind and point out that all God’s children are welcome, that the Church is a hospital for sinners and not a country club of saints, and that folks with ills are what the church and the Gospel is for...for each of us. I have given talks on what might happen if lieing, cheating, immorality, watching bad things on TVs or Movies, or jealousy, envyy, or any other sin had its own distinctive smeell like Tobacco or Alcohol. In each case my sentiment and message was that the whole place would stink so badly that we would all be driven out...so it is best to love people and try and help them when they come, and not shun or turn away from them because, spiritually if we could smell the aroma of our own sins...we would be just as obvious.

So, of course, as humans, and imperfect, we find these types of things everywhere. The best we can do is try and live ourselves, humbly, trying to avoid such attitudes and behavior and help others to do the same...and not point the finger.

As I say, for the most part, the vast majority of members where I have lived and worked try to do this and are good, honorable, decent people. I am sorry that your experiences have clearly run you up against folks who apparently do not try and be Christ-like. The best you can do is to love them, and try and treat and show them how to be Christlike by treating them as you would be treated.

Again, the vast majority of members I have dealt with in all of those places, all over the country and around the world, have been good, Christian people, trying to follow the Savior and live as best they can, thankful for and relying on His grace and atonement to guide their lives.

I ray the people you have had run ins with will turn their lives around and seek you out one day, asking for your forgiveness.


122 posted on 04/25/2012 8:34:25 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
I am truly sorry if you have been mistreated, shunned, or belittled. That is not good coming from anyone, and particularly not family or people who consider and call themselves Christian.

Mormonism is not a Christian faith.

I have to wonder how you believe that posting your resume and testimony is going to convince anyone of mormonism's claim to be "Christian" when there are 52,000 mormon missionaries going out every single day telling Christians that their faith is bogus, and the only way to salvaion is to become baptized mormon and take part in arcane temple rituals that are manmade and do NOT bind God to their promises.

What does it mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church?

Our first responsibility and purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ to a world that suffers to know of His divine mission. As my response to that great responsibility, I will speak about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true and living Church. In doing so I know I speak against the powerful tide of what is called “political correctness.”

The fashionable opinion of this age is that all churches are true. In truth, the idea that all churches are the same is the doctrine of the anti-Christ, illustrated by the Book of Mormon account of Korihor (see Alma 30). That account was given to teach us a vital lesson in our day.

A revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1831, soon after the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spoke of those who had been given “power to lay the foundation of this church.” The Lord then referred to the Church as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased” (D&C 1:30).

Because of this declaration of the Lord, we refer to this, His Church—our Church—as the “only true Church.” Sometimes we do this in a way that gives great offense to people who belong to other churches or who subscribe to other philosophies. But God has not taught us anything that should cause us to feel superior to other people. Certainly all churches and philosophies have elements of truth in them, some more than others. Certainly God loves all of His children. And certainly His gospel plan is for all of His children, all according to His own timetable.

So what does it mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true Church?

Three features—(1) fulness of doctrine, (2) power of the priesthood, and (3) testimony of Jesus Christ—explain why God has declared and why we as His servants maintain that this is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth.

Mormonism is anti-Christian.

123 posted on 04/25/2012 9:05:48 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: svcw

Ping to #123.


124 posted on 04/25/2012 9:08:04 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: Jeff Head

Jeff, as always you state your experiences are not mine or the millions, upon millions who have left lds or deal with it on a daily basis.
My lds family does not and has never referred to themselves as Christians, as they are not. The say they are lds, sometimes they say mormon.
They beleive in the foundation of mormonism, and at its core is anti-Christian. Most of them can trace their line to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
My personal experiences have been going on since 1962, even longer than yours.
In fact Jeff, I have never heard anyone talk about their real experiences with lds as glowingly as you do.
One of my lds cousins says “they are nice to your face, and will cut your spin in two if it benefits them, while they have an “oh I am so good” smile on their faces”.


125 posted on 04/25/2012 9:14:32 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw; Jeff Head
The Only True and Living Church [Mormon]

Link for post #123.

126 posted on 04/25/2012 9:29:55 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: Jeff Head; reaganaut
He got to talking religion with my parents. A few days later they attended an LDS Cottage Meeting and invited missonaries who were also there to come by and talk to us. I walked in during their presentation of the Jospeh Smith story and listened to all the discussions over time. I talked with our paster oand others and ultimately prayed to God in Heaven in the name of Christ if the message, the Book of Moromon and other issues were true. I had been given all sorts of anti-mormon literature, quotes, and sentiments by others I knew in the mean time. I attended LDS meetings and found that the people there were committed to Christ and not at all like they were represented to be by most of the literature. Ultimately, I received an answer to my prayers through the power of the Holy Ghost in the affirmative. It was a very pwoerful and personal experience in the late summer of 1970. One I have never fogotten and to which I have been true to this day.

That’s my story.

Since you are bearing your testimony - let me bear mine since it is somewhat similiar to yours.

I was in my mid-20s and doing very well by the world's standards. Life should have been good but there was a discontent in me that I couldn't identify. A Mormon co-worker consistently discuss Mormonism with me and shared a lot of LDS materials with me. Since he was (and still is) a good friend and I wasn't sure about what I was looking for, I listened carefully for a long period of time. He counseled me to pray about Mormonism which I did.

However, the Holy Spirit did not give me the answer my Mormon friend was hoping for. I never got a peace about Mormonism. Fortunately, at the same time, the Holy Spirit brought someone into my life who exhibited that contentment and peace that I longed for. She explained the true Gospel to me and helped me to understand that her source of joy was Jesus Christ. She got me plugged into an evangelical Bible Study with other committed Christians who exhibited this same joy and peace which was totally lacking in my Mormon friends. I know that the Holy Spirit was answering my prayers and I committed my life to Jesus Christ and have never looked back. The Lord has granted me the peace that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).

So what does that get us? My subjective experience cancels your subjective experience. So if we are honest about our search, it means that we have to look for objective measures to determine truth. On this front, as shown repeatedly on the so-called "Anti-Mormon" threads, Mormonism fails when objective measures can be used.

The Holy Spirit reaffirmed the truth He revealed during my graduate school experience. Among the Ph.D. students, there were three committed evangelicals and a dozen Mormons including at least, five RMs. We had some spirited discussions but one thing became abundantly clear to us evangelicals: the Mormon students had no spiritual understanding at all. As Walter Martin correctly observed (paraphrasing here): "Discussing spiritual things with a Mormon is like trying to describe a rainbow to a person who was born blind." The illogical twists that these intelligent people would make were sometimes mindblowing. Looking back on the experience, I realized that these Mormon apologists were exhibiting what Reaganaut so succinently stated when she said that 'Mormons don't want truth, they want the Mormon church to be true.'

127 posted on 04/25/2012 9:53:30 AM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: Elsie
It's just merely been pointed out how UN-christian the MORMONs are.

There is nothing unchristian about a church having it's own marriage policies. So by that reasoning denying communion to a non member or worse one who has not met the requirements stated for such by Christ would be unchristian even though many main stream churches have such policy?

What about a church where women must sit on one side and men the other? What if I want to sit with my wife? Certain Baptist have that rule.

Oh and BTW my wife told me about a school field trip she took as a kid. They were allowed to enter only certain parts of the Temple as long as no services were taking place and no others were present. No it wasn't a Mormon Temple either LOL.

She also for first grade attended a Catholic School. For her to enter the church with the rest of the class every morning where Mass was held she had to cover her head. If she did something wrong in class she had to light a candle and stand before the class and apologize. Nope she wasn't Catholic but the school was ran by the Catholic church.

I have known and interacted with many Mormons in my lifetime from school teachers to my cousin who married into the church after being raised Baptist. We worship the same LORD and Savior. The love of Christ dwells in them. I have also interacted with some Christians so self righteous and legalistic they condemn all views outside their specific denomination as work of the devil.

Watch to whom a Christian gives the glory and watch the fruits of their labors by that you will know them. I can think of a lot of churches I radically disagree with. These are ones attacking such things as prayer in school etc where ones doing so are often members of United Church of Christ. One example is the Director of Americans for Separation of Church and State. Rev Lynn I think is the name the other a friend and former preacher of Obama.

The Mormons as in LDS are not my enemy. I can find a lot I disagree with talking to Catholics, Baptist, Methodist, etc but I understand whom they serve.

One Mormon I know has had nothing short of a medical miracle. He gives Jesus Christ the glory for that and all things in his life and that should be enough proof.

128 posted on 04/25/2012 9:56:14 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
We worship the same LORD and Savior.

Oh, really?

lds jesus - created

Biblical Jesus - eternal

lds god - was once a man

Biblical God - eternal

lds jesus - brother or satan Biblical Jesus - not the brother of satan

lds jesus - not sufficient for salvation. Must work with Joseph Smith to decide if you are worthy. Must work for salvation, with no assurance.

Biblical Jesus - sufficient for Salvation because of Grace

lds men can becaome gods of their own planets

Christians say there is only one God.

The same, not even close.

129 posted on 04/25/2012 10:06:44 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: cva66snipe
Watch to whom a Christian mormons gives the glory and watch the fruits of their labors by that you will know them.

"fruits" - referrers to false prophets, such as Joseph Smith.

Watch, who lds give glory to - Joseph Smith for restoring something or other.

130 posted on 04/25/2012 10:10:38 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head; svcw
That is not good coming from anyone, and particularly not family or people who consider and call themselves Christian.

Just because someone says their watch is a Rolex doesn't make it so. It could be a fake.

The bible warns of false Jesus - yet I'll bet the followers of those false Jesus called themselves Christian too - but they weren't.

It is undeniable Jeff - mormonism staked its claim that they were NOT Christian. They still teach that Christian churches are apostate and that mormonism is the only "TRUE" church. So don't try to spread this falsehood. By every key criteria, mormonism is NOT Christian.

And mormonism's doctrine would repudiate that a woman PRIEST could even exist - let alone give credence to it - except for PR purposes - blurr the lines and begile the unknowing.

131 posted on 04/25/2012 10:21:42 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: svcw

svcw, you are clearly emotionally involved and upset over this (obviously) and probably justafiably so. A such some times you make some very wide ranging and generalized statements, IMHO.

You may have had experiences since 1962...but it has been with a relative few members of the church with whom you have these issues, and then with other discontent folks who also have had bad experiences...and that’s most of your world as regards the LDS Church. So the experiences you have had, and the experiences I have had naturally are with completely different populations. I deal, for the most part, with active, engaged members who are glad they are there and wish to share their happiness with others. You deal with people who are upset at the church and have left it for those reasons. Outside of your own relatives and others who have wronged you, you probably do not deal with active, engaged, and content members of the Church very often.

I have been dealing with Wards and Branches and Stakes all over the country and around the world...and have not seen the types of negative things to the extent you have, though there are certainly, as I stated, some experiences. In my own role as a home teacher, in bishoprics, as a quorum president or leader, I have had to deal with people who were dissaffected for one reason or another, usally some member offended them for some reason or another...somtimes even unaware that ehy had done so. and I have been able to, with a lot of prayer and working with both sides, for the most part help them reconcile their differences. But not always.

But regarding “millions and millions” who have left the church. This is, IMHO, somewhat exagerated when there are only just over 14 million members altogether. Millions and millions implies quite a bit more than three or four million and I believe such a number is an exageration, though I certainly do not know an exact number.

No doubt there are many who have left, whatever that number is...as there are with any large denomination. But the church has continued to grow and retains far more than it looses throughout the time period. Otherwise it could not have grown from a couple or three million in 1970 to 14+ million today.

Anyhow, again, so very sorry for your difficult and untoward experiences, and I pray you and those who have treated you badly can reconcile and be caring and helpful to one another.


132 posted on 04/25/2012 10:40:49 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Godzilla

I may not accept that she is a “Priest” from a doctrinal perspective, but I do recognize her as a child of God, and respect her as such.

IMHO, she did not write this from a doctrinal, Episcopal Priest standpoint as much as she did as an individual who visited our open house...which I felt she made pretty clear. There was no attempt on her part to dwell on or call out the obvious doctrinal differences we have...just to describe pretty much what she experienced and thought of it.

As to our faith being Christian or not...I am grateful it will be Christ Jesus, whom I worship, adore, and who is the author of my Salvation who will make that determination...for He knows the heart and judges us all accordingly as regards our acceptance of His atonement and our discipleship.

You may call it what you wish, but is He whom I profess, and His atonment and sacrifice for my sins...for all of our sins...that I proclaim.

My Wintess for Christ
http://www.jeffhead.com/jlhwitness.htm


133 posted on 04/25/2012 10:50:21 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: CommerceComet

Thank you for sharing. I do not believe they cancel each other out at all...to the contrary, I believe they show the wonder of God in Heaven’s knowledge of His children, each and every one, and where He would use them best.

I certainly know my brother and so many other good Christian people I know outside of my own faith are used daily by God in Heaven and His Son through the promptings of the Holy Ghost to bring people to Christ...and that is always good, to whatever measure of His atoenment and knowledge they can.

I know from personal experience that the LDS church does like wise...I have seen it and felt it spiritually very deeply on countless occassions.

A statement that in essense says that LDS people cannnot understand or feel spirituality is, I am sorry, very opinionated and very narro on its face...and I can tell you from my own experiences that it is simply wrong. I would not make such a statement about you or any other sincere believer in Christ. He will use them as He will.

Now, we do believe that in due time, Christ will bring all of His sheep to a full knowledge of the entire truth...and you know what we believe in that regard. I know that others, conversel believe that it is another interpretation of doctrine that we will be brought to...and I am fine with that.

In the end, if we sincerely, love, accept, profess, and follow Jesus Christ, hhe will lead us where He needs and wants us to go. Guess what...if He one day appears to me, or comes back and tells me, Jeff, you need to stop attending the temple...if HE bids me do so, I will. I would hope, that in due time, should you stand before Him or as He returns to this earth in great glory and tells you that you should be attending...that you will do so. I know you will if your love for Him is true and it is He doing the bidding.

I am content to leave it there and let us each go about doing good and bringing people to Him...for that is surely what I intend to continue doing according to His witness which I have received through the Holy Ghost.

God bless you in your endeavors to do the same.


134 posted on 04/25/2012 11:01:48 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head; svcw; Godzilla; CommerceComet
Jeff, mormonism is not a "large denomination". The 14 million claimed includes many who have been baptized and are not active, yet will be carried on the rolls until their age would be 110. It also includes many, many children who are baptized at the age of 8, when many Christian churches baptize at a much later age. There are at least 60 such "members" in my own extended family.

In the US, there are fewer than 2% of these "members" (remember, they are reported as such even if they haven't set foot in a mormon church for years.)

"Attendance at sacrament meeting varies substantially. Asia and Latin America have weekly attendance rates of about 25 percent, Europe averages about 35 percent" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, 1992, 4:1527.)

"Canada, the South Pacific, and the United States average between 40 percent and 50 percent." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, 1992, 4:1527.)
"The percentage of adults in a temple marriage varies from about 45 percent in Utah to less than 2 percent in Mexico and Central America." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, 1992, 4:1531)

"For the U.S. as a whole, only 59% of baptized males ever receive the Melchizedek Priesthood.
In the South Pacific, the figure drops to 35%; in Great Britain, 29%. In Mexico (with almost 850,000 members) the figure is 19%; and in Japan, only 17% of the male members ever make it past the Aaronic Priesthood. (Lowell C. Bennion and Lawrence Young, Dialogue, Spring 1996, p.19.)

LDS Membership Indicators

Generalized statements which IMO you are prone to make without sourcing to unbiased sources are sure to be challenged as "propaganda".

135 posted on 04/25/2012 11:22:52 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: Jeff Head
I may not accept that she is a “Priest” from a doctrinal perspective, but I do recognize her as a child of God, and respect her as such.

Oh really.

As to our faith being Christian or not...I am grateful it will be Christ Jesus, whom I worship, adore, and who is the author of my Salvation who will make that determination.

Yes indeed Jeff. Yet Jesus Himself warned us about following false Jesuses. Many will say they did a lot of thing in "his name" and are rejected. So that in itself makes it clear WHO he is is what matters - not just claiming the name of the individual.

Your "Jesus", a junior god of a plethora of gods. Your 'salvation' - based upon your works AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO - contrary to what the bible and even a systematic examination of mormon doctrine states. His 'atonement' - again mormon concept is non-biblical and universal to all - the only difference are the works and ordinances of the individual after all they can do.

You may call it what you wish, but is He whom I profess, and His atonment and sacrifice for my sins...for all of our sins...that I proclaim.

After all you can do Jeff - it is in YOUR doctrine. Your doctrine is not Christianity nor is compatable with Christianity - so it becomes absurd to claim to be Christian when your doctrine denies all the key doctrines of Christianity. Really Jeff.

My Wintess for Christ

Your witness is countered by far more witnesses to the contrary Jeff, and you would be dishonest to deny it. A "witness" based upon subjective experience is a foundation built upon sand - particularly when you have to ignore all the plainly evident falsehoods built into mormonism. You may whitewash it as you wish - but Jesus wasn't too keen on those who whitewashed things either.

136 posted on 04/25/2012 11:31:30 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Jeff Head

Well, Jeff what can I saw, yet again you discount what I have said.
Am I emotionally involved you betcha, I have seen my lds families destroyed, I have seen aunts and uncles weep, yet are terrified to leave.
The tipping point for me was when my cousin put a bullet in her brain because of how she was treated by her “god” “priest” husband, the bishop and stake president.
Your assumption I have experiences with relative few people, is a condescending statement.
I have had personal experiences over many states and hundreds of people since 1962.
I told you most of my lds family traces their beginning to JS and BY, this is not a small group in a tiny area of some mythical state. These people are in the hundreds over many states.
I have friends who are lds in many states and their experiences are what I am reporting to you .
I only have three cousins who have left (yes and they have been shunned, ignored berated by their lds family and former friends), the rest just dutifully follow the rules, hoping for their own planet/godhood, whatever.
Even my uncle who sings in the MTC, has little good to say about lds.
It is not as easy to leave lds, a person has to be willing to give up family, friends, home and harth, maybe a job.
I know of only one lds member who glowingly talks about mormonism and that is you.
You used the word “reconcile” what is there to reconcile? If I chose not to be lds or leave lds, I will be shunned, berated, ignored......a whole host of other things. It sounds almost as if your “counseling” is more of a ‘you better come back” sort of deal.
According to the lds articles of faith, I am free to beleive what I want (apparently only as long at it mormonism).
(As a side note lds is not growing, hence the many articles write by lds publications this year about shrinking membership)


137 posted on 04/25/2012 12:15:45 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head

Oh my goodness, Jeff, you seem to be a very nice and thoughtful person. I pray that one day, something that is written here by all these caring people will click and we will hear you tell that you are out of the darkness and into the light. I care.


138 posted on 04/25/2012 12:17:56 PM PDT by PeachyKeen
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To: Godzilla

Like I said, He will be my Judge. And I am content and etermnally grateful for that because I know He knows my heart.

As a result, I will continue doing what I know to be right, and seek and bring as many souls closer to Him as I possibly can.

God’s speed to you as you seek to do the same.


139 posted on 04/25/2012 12:18:12 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: BlueMoose

Thanks for the link.

Here’s one for you back that will raise the ire of many on this thread, but nonetheless represents the honest thoughts and feelings of this well known Evangelical:

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/October/Joel-Osteen-Says-Mormons-Are-Christian/


140 posted on 04/25/2012 12:23:53 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: svcw

It was never my intent to ridicule, put down, or discount.

I am truly sorry for the way you have been treated and for your loss.

Reconcile was a word I used regarding what I have seen with other people I have personally worked with...it is not a warning, nor was it meant to be.

That is what I mean when I say sometimes your emotions (understandably) cause you to look at things skewed. I was not warning you...I truly hope you and your family can reconcile...and that does not mean you coming back to the LDS church either, simply that you may have peace between yourselves, care for one another and have no animosity over belief in Christ. That is a sincere wish, and perhaps, hopefully in some respects, after so many years, is already the case.

Again, God bless you...I am sincerely sorry for the experiences you have had.

I am sorry you have met only one person who glowingly talks about the church. I know literally hundreds...and have seen and heard many more whom I do not know. Attend a fast and testimony meeting at any ward some 1st sunday of the month and you will hear quite a few...but that is up to you.

God bless you, and my sincere hope and prayer is that you will have peace, contement, and joy in your life now, and in the hereafter as a result of your sincere love for and faith in Jesus Christ.


141 posted on 04/25/2012 12:33:22 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
Well, I wrote a glowing report about a Lutheran Church, the Faith Lutheran Church in Bellaire, TX. that took me and my wife in through their outreach program, the Faith House, to which we were miraculously admitted when I was in Houston fighting for my life at MD Anderson with malignant bone cancer.

Getting into their aprtment wa a literal and direct answer to prayer for me and my wife and so many others praying for us at the time...all in the name of Christ, Jesus.

Jeff, the mormon church boasts all the time about its humanitarian aid. Houston is a VERY large city. There are probably several thousand mormons who live there.

Why is it that there is not an LDS sponsored Outreach program similar to Faith House, even for members only available?

Faith House

Waiting List Procedure Due to the popularity and demand for Faith House units, a waiting list system is utilized. As soon as you know you will need temporary medical housing in Houston, call the Faith House phone number (713) 876-7533 to have the patient’s name placed on the waiting list. Faith House is coordinated by a dedicated group of church volunteers who use a voice mail system for receiving and returning phone calls. When you reach the Faith House voice mail system, leave your name, phone number, patient’s name, and date when housing is needed. If possible, leave a local callback number. A church volunteer will return your call within 24-48 hours. At that time, you will be asked for more information, such as the patient’s ID number, approximate date and duration of treatment and names of hospital and social worker. In order to keep the waiting list current, Faith House volunteers request that you update your information at least one time every two weeks, or your name will be removed from the list.

Faith House is comprised of two apartment units (“Faith House I”) and a six bedroom house (“Faith House II”).

Somehow, I can't imagine that in the eventuality that the mormons in Houston had a similar facility, a non-member would be considered for this program.

How is it that you lucked out?

Church Statistics

Statistics of the Church

Official 2010 statistics about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Worldwide Church Statistics


Membership 14,131,467
Missions 340
Missionaries 52,483
Missionary Training Centers 15
Temples (current 2011 number) 134
Congregations 28,660
Universities and Colleges 4
Seminary Students Enrollment 369,373
Institute Students Enrollment 348,111
Family History Centers 4,648
Countries with Family History Centers 127
Countries Receiving Humanitarian Aid Since 1985 178
Value of Humanitarian Assistance Since 1985 (25 years) $1.3 Billions
Welfare Service Missionaries
(Including Humanitarian Service Missionaries)
8,583
Languages Church Materials Available

How is it that you lucked out?

142 posted on 04/25/2012 12:33:33 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: CommerceComet

Bump #127


143 posted on 04/25/2012 12:42:09 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: Jeff Head
I believe they show the wonder of God in Heaven’s knowledge of His children, each and every one, and where He would use them best.

So you believe that the Holy Spirit would tell one person that the fullness of the everlasting gospel is in Mormonism and the other that Mormonism is false?

to whatever measure of His atoenment

What is the "whatever measure" statement? Either a person's sins are atoned for by Christ or they are not.

I know from personal experience that the LDS church does like wise...I have seen it and felt it spiritually very deeply on countless occassions.

We know from ex-Mormons what Mormons really think of Christians. I know this is a sample of one but the Mormon who tried to get me to join Mormonism was anything but gracious to Christians. What about the statements of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other Mormon prophets about Christians? Hardly sweetness and light.

A statement that in essense says that LDS people cannnot understand or feel spirituality is, I am sorry, very opinionated and very narro on its face...and I can tell you from my own experiences that it is simply wrong.

And I tell from my experience that it is true. In my discussions with the RMs, I was absolutely stunned at their lack of Biblical understanding.

I would not make such a statement about you or any other sincere believer in Christ.

I wouldn't care if you did. I'm not here for the approval of men (Galatians 1).

Now, we do believe that in due time, Christ will bring all of His sheep to a full knowledge of the entire truth

Some "sheep" are going to find out they are goats. Christ's judgement "depart from me, I never knew you" was directed at those who claimed to be Christians and pointed to good works (Matthew 7:21-23). A person needs to realize that there are wrong paths that lead to damnation even when they use Christian labels.

Guess what...if He one day appears to me, or comes back and tells me, Jeff, you need to stop attending the temple...if HE bids me do so, I will.

Of course, such a witness is very unlikely to occur. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:30) which tells us that the testimony of Moses and the prophet (the written Word of God) is a sufficient testimony. What you are asking for is what Joseph Smith claimed occurred to him. Did it happen? I don't think so. Based on other evidence, I personally think it was a total fabrication. However, even if it had occurred, the discerning Christian would be reminded of Paul's warning in Galatians 1:6-9. A new gospel delivered by an angel which contradicts Paul's should not be believed as a heavenly message whether it is asserted to by Mohammad or by Joseph Smith. Spiritual beings, if indeed they actually appeared to Smith and Mohammad, are not always reliable communicators of the truth (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Instead of a personal appearance of the Lord of the Universe, have you considered that maybe Jesus Christ has placed us "anti's" in your presence to open your eyes?

144 posted on 04/25/2012 12:45:33 PM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: CommerceComet; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...
Excellent post, CC.

Going out to all the Flying Inmans.

145 posted on 04/25/2012 12:51:37 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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To: greyfoxx39
How is it that you lucked out?"

Read my experiences with this cancer...I explain it in detail there. I do not believe "luck" had anything to do with it.

My Sacral Chordoma Bone Cancer

It was literally an answer to prayer.

We had many people praying for us, friends, family, members of our congregation, and many, many here on FR, others I have been involved with at Klaamath, Jarbidge, and elsewhere, parying in Jesus name for His will and His tender mercies.

When down in Houston initially in Jan-Feb 2010, to meet, get fully diagnosed, and set up for the surgery, we began looking. I was very worried about where my wife would stay and her security while I was in the hiospital for 3+ months and she would be coming and going at all hours. While searching we signed up then, in February for the Faith House waiting list.

On the way back to Houston from Idaho in April 2010 for the surgery (almost exactly 2 years ago now) we still had not found a place and were getting concerned as we literally drove into Houston...as we passed the Woodlands, north of Housto,n coming in on I-45, we gat a call from the Faith House and we literally drove right up to it and signed up...they then extended our stay for an extra two months to cover my rehab.

It was simply a blessing, a tender mercy and answer to prayer, for the which I remain humble to this day and give all the credit, glory and thanks to a merciful and loving Father in Heaven and His Son, Jesus Christ.

146 posted on 04/25/2012 1:08:20 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
"Like I said, He will be my Judge. And I am content and etermnally grateful for that because I know He knows my heart. As a result, I will continue doing what I know to be right, and seek and bring as many souls closer to Him as I possibly can. God’s speed to you as you seek to do the same. "

Jeff, when you use the word "He", who are you referring to?

Are you talking about the Christian God, who is eternally God, never created, nor made, omnipotent, the One Who said, "Hear, O' Israel, the Lord your God is ONE LORD" - forever ruling out any thought of polytheism as the pagans surrounding Israel believed...

- Or -

... Are you referring to the mormonic God the Father, who used to be simply a creature, but later earned godhood, and is one of thousands or millions of mormon gods spread throughout the universes?

These are not just "different interpretations", but different Gods. Which God are you referring to in your posts?

147 posted on 04/25/2012 1:24:12 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: CommerceComet
Instead of a personal appearance of the Lord of the Universe, have you considered that maybe Jesus Christ has placed us "anti's" in your presence to open your eyes?

Instead of a personal appearance of the Lord of the Universe, have you considered that maybe Jesus Christ has placed me, as an active member of His Restored Church in your presence to open your eyes?

Cuts both ways.

The answer is clear in both cases. We have out witnesses and are going about oding the Lord's work to the best of our ability, and He will judge accordingly according to the sincereity of our conversion to Him and love for Him.

In answer to your other question, "Could the Holy Ghost give those two answerrs?"

Yes, I believe He is perfectly capable of it, knowing us each personally, knowing where we best fit in His plan, not our own, whom we can and will influence for Him and how, as He, in His own way, brings people (His children) to Him through others like ourselves.

This is an understanding I have cme to through the Holy Ghost in watching my brother and his ministry to others...and he in turn regarding me, as he has also watched over a space of more than 40 years.

God's ways are not our ways. He knows and comprehends all things...the end from the beginning...we do not. If we each sincerely seek Him and follow Him according to the sincere dictates of our own conscience and faith in His Son Jesus Christ, He will lead us aright and to all truth...in His time.

Of course, the evidence of that conversion will also be written with His image in our countenance and how we deal with, love, and witness too His children, and live our life.

...and in that regard...once again, God's speed and blessing to you.

148 posted on 04/25/2012 1:28:47 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
the end from the beginning

Not true of the lds god, as he was once a man, so his time has been limited not eternal.

149 posted on 04/25/2012 1:31:38 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head
I'm well aware of your battle with cancer...was one who followed your progress and prayed for you. I'm glad you are doing well. Perhaps all the FR prayers of all faiths were involved in your luck.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the mormon church provided facilities like Faith House? That multi-billion dollars spent on the new mall on Temple Square could be helping the needy instead.

150 posted on 04/25/2012 1:47:00 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I do not expect the (FR) house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided-Jim Robinson)
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