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Teacher Claims Catholic School Fired Her Over IVF
theindychannel.com/ap ^ | April 26, 2012 | uncredited

Posted on 04/26/2012 8:35:52 AM PDT by Abathar

FORT WAYNE, Ind. -- A Fort Wayne teacher who claims she was fired from a Roman Catholic school for using in vitro fertilization to try to get pregnant is suing in a case that could set up a legal showdown over reproductive and religious rights.

Emily Herx's lawsuit accuses the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend and St. Vincent de Paul School in Fort Wayne of discrimination for her firing last June.

Herx, 31, of Hoagland, Ind., said that the church pastor told her she was a "grave, immoral sinner" and that a scandal would erupt if anyone learned she had undergone in vitro fertilization, or IVF.

The Roman Catholic Church shuns IVF, which involves mixing egg and sperm in a laboratory dish and transferring a resulting embryo into the womb. Herx said she was fired despite exemplary performance reviews in her eight years as a language arts teacher.

Legal experts said Herx's case illustrates a murky area in the debate over separation of church and state that even the U.S. Supreme Court has failed to clearly address.

(Excerpt) Read more at theindychannel.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: catholic; ivf; moralabsolutes; romancatholic; stuartcrisatroll
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1 posted on 04/26/2012 8:35:59 AM PDT by Abathar
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To: Abathar

“shuns” is a pretty lame word for the actual dogma.

How about FORBIDS.


2 posted on 04/26/2012 8:37:38 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Abathar
This stuff always stuns me. Does the First Amendment mean nothing? Why should a civil court system approach a religious organization and declare, "You're doing it wrong?"

Religious groups should have their own rules -- barring force or fraud -- they should call their own shots.

3 posted on 04/26/2012 8:39:54 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Like Emmett Till, Trayvon Martin has become simply a stick with which to beat Whites.)
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To: OpusatFR

She knew the rules when she went to work for the school. Whether the school is right or wrong is not the point here. It’s a private school and they can do what they want.


4 posted on 04/26/2012 8:41:07 AM PDT by RC2 (Buy American and support the Wounded Warrior Project whenever possible.)
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To: Abathar

“TEACHER FIRED FOR IVF”

Works for me. And good riddance, teach’.

Times are changing. The great Church is FINALLY barking back and living the faith for a change. Damn near too late, but the Lion is roaring now on a few fronts.


5 posted on 04/26/2012 8:42:36 AM PDT by RitaOK ( LET 'ER RIP, NEWT. Newt IS Galt. (& Always has been.) 1144 isn't here, yet!!!!)
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To: ClearCase_guy
"barring force or fraud"

Never, ever, let fraud be mentioned when the subject of faith comes up, especially in the eyes of a court.

6 posted on 04/26/2012 8:44:25 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Like Muslim groups?


7 posted on 04/26/2012 8:47:29 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Abathar

I thought I heard it reported somewhere that the actual reason she was fired, was for using excessive sick days. ??


8 posted on 04/26/2012 8:51:22 AM PDT by NEMDF
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To: stuartcr
"Like Muslim groups?"

Yes. The last thing you want is for the government determining the boundaries of legitimate faith so that means we have to cast a pretty wide net.

9 posted on 04/26/2012 8:52:19 AM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Abathar

asking for some clarification here (I’m not a catholic).

I understand the proscription on birth control, as that prevents a birth that God may have wanted to occur. It inhibits the creation of life.

But, IVF does exactly the opposite, it enables life where the mother may, through no fault of her own, be unable to conceive.

Does the catholic church frown on this? If so, what is the rationale? I simply don’t understand (no insults intended, and if so, I appologize in advance) I’m simply curious as to the ‘why’.


10 posted on 04/26/2012 8:54:52 AM PDT by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: RC2

Sounds like you believe in private property rights. According to the left, that’s “hatred”. Except of course when it comes to their private property.


11 posted on 04/26/2012 8:55:15 AM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Abathar
..and (they) she goes around telling people about it?
..bragging....a celebrity?... what about his vows of pretatinng to silence!

12 posted on 04/26/2012 8:56:05 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (WA DC E$tabli$hment; DNC/RNC/Unionists...Brazilian saying: "$@me $h!t, w!th d!fferent fl!e$". :^)
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To: Abathar

Out of curiosity, is this woman married? I scanned for the word married and husband and didn’t get a hit. I can see a school also having a problem with choosing to have an out-of-wedlock child, regardless of how it was conceived.


13 posted on 04/26/2012 8:56:32 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (I didn't know she was a liberal when I married her.)
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To: Hodar
asking for some clarification here (I’m not a catholic).

I understand the proscription on birth control, as that prevents a birth that God may have wanted to occur. It inhibits the creation of life.

But, IVF does exactly the opposite, it enables life where the mother may, through no fault of her own, be unable to conceive.

Does the catholic church frown on this? If so, what is the rationale? I simply don’t understand (no insults intended, and if so, I appologize in advance) I’m simply curious as to the ‘why’.

The rationale for the second is the same as the first... the Will of God. Life is His domain. We cooperate with His Will in generating offspring. It's the height of hubris to seek to create a life that God Himself has denied you.

14 posted on 04/26/2012 9:00:37 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Abathar

Condition of employment is “You must follow our Rules”.

Catholic schools are not obliged to teach secular concepts, which oppose Church teachings.

Either by curricula or example!


15 posted on 04/26/2012 9:01:08 AM PDT by G Larry (Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding)
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Emily Herx

The diocese said that teachers, even those such as Herx who aren't Catholic, are required by their contracts to abide by Catholic tenets and "serve as moral exemplars."

2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."166

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union .... Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168

16 posted on 04/26/2012 9:02:04 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: ReformationFan

Exactly. This is what we need to get away from. Leave us alone and adhere to the Constitution of this country.


17 posted on 04/26/2012 9:03:58 AM PDT by RC2 (Buy American and support the Wounded Warrior Project whenever possible.)
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To: pgyanke

Thank you.


18 posted on 04/26/2012 9:04:50 AM PDT by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Natural Law

How does the legitimacy of a faith get determined?


19 posted on 04/26/2012 9:05:10 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Hodar

IVF involves masturbation which the Church teaches is immoral. IVF takes place outside of the conjugal act which the Church teaches is immoral. IVF usually involves the fertilization of more than one egg, thus creating more than one embryo. What happens to those other embryos? Are they left in a state of suspended animation, frozen, or are they destroyed, aborted? Both options are immoral.


20 posted on 04/26/2012 9:07:37 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Hodar

“But, IVF does exactly the opposite, it enables life where the mother may, through no fault of her own, be unable to conceive.

Does the catholic church frown on this...”

The embryo is a living being. All well and good. The problem comes eggs are harvest and fertilized. Those embryos are discarded or frozen. The best are cherry-picked.

All life is sacred. Not just the ones you choose or want.


21 posted on 04/26/2012 9:08:25 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Hodar

Yeah, I’m with you—I don’t understand this one at all.


22 posted on 04/26/2012 9:10:13 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: pgyanke

But God didn’t really deny her the ability to have a child, did He?


23 posted on 04/26/2012 9:11:19 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: ClearCase_guy
This stuff always stuns me. Does the First Amendment mean nothing? Why should a civil court system approach a religious organization and declare, "You're doing it wrong?" Religious groups should have their own rules -- barring force or fraud -- they should call their own shots.

Barring force or fraud, you're absolutely correct.

That's why Islam is not a 1st Amendment religion, however - it refuses to remove its force or fraud.

Interestingly, the Catholic Church has just as bloody a history as Islam. But the RCC is based ont he teaching of Jesus, which overcame its internal corruptiona and forced it (at least nominally) to drop the barbarism. And one of the was Jesus did this is through the rise of Protestantism, to provide a counterforce to challenge church corruption.

But how can such a counter-force arise in Islam, when Mohammed's own life and teachings read like some sort of pornographic chainsaw massacre? There have been genuine Muslim saints throughout history (and of course the beautiful offshoot of Sufism), but they were all put to the sword, driven out and marginalized. Most people can't even believe there were any Muslim saints at all - but why wouldn't God try to save Muslims, too?

I guess I got somewhat off track, LOL. Anyway, the whole idea of a "1st Amendment Religion" needs to be considered very carefully, rather than some undiscriminated idea of religion as "anything." Because the Muslims are infiltrating this country - and look around, ALL countries - under the guise of a religion, but actually as declared enemies of the whole world. And once in, they're getting into the political structure as well. So let's see, Muslim politicians and representatives and bureaucrats - what could possibly go wrong?

24 posted on 04/26/2012 9:12:08 AM PDT by Talisker (He who commands, must obey.)
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To: Hodar

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

The answers you have been given are accurate, but not comprehensive. This link is to the instruction which covers the issues in detail.


25 posted on 04/26/2012 9:16:53 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Ten the hard way. (Day 14, -10 lbs.))
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To: Hodar
For its part, the school denies that there was any discrimination and says that it “has clear policies requiring that teachers in its schools must, as a condition of employment, have a knowledge and respect for the Catholic faith and abide by the tenets of the Catholic Church.”

One of those tenets holds that IVF treatments are a sin because, the Diocese explained in a statement, they “frequently involve the deliberate destruction and freezing of embryos.”

In her lawsuit, Herx claims that her bishop told her that IVF “is an intrinsic evil, which means no circumstances can justify it. “ She also claims in her lawsuit that her parish pastor told her that she was a “grave, immoral sinner” for pusuing IVF.

The church sees the case as a test of constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.

The diocese tells TODAY that is(sic) supports infertility treatments for its employees, just not in vitro fertilization, which the church believes contradicts its right-to-life beliefs.

“The Diocese views the core issue raised in this lawsuit as a challenge to the Diocese's right, as a religious employer, to make religious based decisions consistent with its religious standards on an impartial basis,” the Diocese said in a statement.

26 posted on 04/26/2012 9:18:03 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Future Snake Eater

The link at #25 will also explain the Church’s reasoning to you.


27 posted on 04/26/2012 9:18:23 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Ten the hard way. (Day 14, -10 lbs.))
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To: stuartcr
But God didn’t really deny her the ability to have a child, did He?

Apparently, He did if a third party has to intervene in the conjugal act to produce a child.

See Post #16 for text from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the matter.

28 posted on 04/26/2012 9:18:51 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Talisker
the Catholic Church has just as bloody a history as Islam.

False.

the rise of Protestantism

Which also has a bloody history. Oddly enough, you chose to gloss over that fact.

Next time, do more than just a little research.

29 posted on 04/26/2012 9:19:25 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: pgyanke

“The rationale for the second is the same as the first... the Will of God. Life is His domain. We cooperate with His Will in generating offspring. It’s the height of hubris to seek to create a life that God Himself has denied you.”

I’ve got to be honest here. Is this REALLY what Catholics believe? This just seems a bit off.


30 posted on 04/26/2012 9:20:12 AM PDT by VanDeKoik (If case you are wondering, I'm STILL supporting Newt.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
In her lawsuit, Herx claims that her bishop told her that IVF “is an intrinsic evil, which means no circumstances can justify it. “ She also claims in her lawsuit that her parish pastor told her that she was a “grave, immoral sinner” for pusuing IVF.

If Ms. Herx can be believed, then, astoundingly, both the bishop and the pastor correctly informed her of Catholic doctrine.

31 posted on 04/26/2012 9:20:38 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Ten the hard way. (Day 14, -10 lbs.))
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: VanDeKoik
I’ve got to be honest here. Is this REALLY what Catholics believe? This just seems a bit off.

Cooperating with the Will of God seems a bit off to you?

33 posted on 04/26/2012 9:23:19 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
... just not in vitro fertilization, which the church believes contradicts its right-to-life beliefs.

Who writes this garble? IVF is contrary to the Catholic Church's teaching on human life and sexual morality. It just is ... no "the church believes" about it.

34 posted on 04/26/2012 9:23:37 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Ten the hard way. (Day 14, -10 lbs.))
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To: pgyanke

Maybe she believes that God gave her another chance at having a baby and being a mother?

Otherwise, why would God provide an alternative for people that can’t conceive? Surely He knew all this was going to happen before she was even born, right? Didn’t God also know all the steps man would take in medical research, to lead up to this ability?


35 posted on 04/26/2012 9:26:21 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Tax-chick
Since Herx isn't Catholic I wonder why the article says "her bishop"? The Bishop and the Pastor need to have a long talk with Herx's "supervisor".

“For two years my supervisor has known about it and said she was praying for us,” Herx told TODAY’s Ann Curry. “So there was no warning. There was nothing. So in my heart I had support and I was being honest about it.”

36 posted on 04/26/2012 9:27:25 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: stuartcr
Otherwise, why would God provide an alternative for people that can’t conceive? Surely He knew all this was going to happen before she was even born, right? Didn’t God also know all the steps man would take in medical research, to lead up to this ability?

We have the ability to do lots of things that God disapproves. Having the ability doesn't equal God's Will.

Look at the fact that a great deal of medical advancement came through Nazi experimentation on their "undesirable" populations... does that mean that all that comes out of it is evil? No... but neither does the good outcomes make the original act good. God can make all things new and all things (even when we try to do evil) accomplish His Will. That doesn't mean that everything we do, then, is sanctioned by God.

37 posted on 04/26/2012 9:36:56 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Hodar; Future Snake Eater

IVF involves the fertilization of, and the deliberate destruction of, many, many developing human embryos. This is gravely immoral.

See a short discussion from Catholic Answers and a longer one from the former Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-can-the-church-deny-the-right-of-women-to-use-ivf-if-they-cannot-conceive-a-child

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html


38 posted on 04/26/2012 9:41:29 AM PDT by iowamark
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To: pgyanke

So why do you think God allowed the Nazis to do what they did? He knew they would do it prior to there even being Nazis.

Since God is infallible, doesn’t something He knows will happen, have to happen?


39 posted on 04/26/2012 9:42:09 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: stuartcr
God allows evil to exist because of the greater good that can come out of it, aka lessons learned.

Birth defects a third more common in IVF babies

40 posted on 04/26/2012 9:58:07 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Then why call it evil? Why not just call it part of His plan?


41 posted on 04/26/2012 9:59:54 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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42 posted on 04/26/2012 10:01:27 AM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: stuartcr

Why call anything evil?


43 posted on 04/26/2012 10:08:02 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Abathar
Unfortunately, stories such as these usually end up in discussions and arguments over the belief or tenet rather than the freedom of the church to enforce or support said beliefs. I'm Baptist and don't agree with every teaching of the Catholic Church. However, if I went to work for a Catholic school and part of my agreement was to abide by their doctrine, and if I didn't, they have every right to fire me. It doesn't matter what if I think the Church is wrong, I did not fulfill the terms of my contract.

It would be like if I went to teach at a Jewish school, I wouldn't expect to bring bacon cheeseburgers for lunch.

44 posted on 04/26/2012 10:11:38 AM PDT by tnlibertarian (I <3 PEJSWDTDSOPC)
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To: Hodar

Because children are not commodities.


45 posted on 04/26/2012 10:14:22 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Hodar

Two or three ideas:

One, that the sexual act within marriage cannot be separated from potential fertility, and potential fertility cannot be separated from the sexual act. There is a sacredness and a total self-giving in the marriage act, and conception of children is not permitted outside of this sacredness.

Two, that IVF treats the embryos created as commodities not as human beings, and substitutes the physician’s will for the will of God - this embryo is not dividing well, discard it, these are extra, freeze them.

Three, a practical problem rather than an intrinsic problem, the death of discarded embryos, equivalent to abortion, or the direct abortion of extra fetuses within the womb.

The Church does permit the transfer of an unfertilized ovum from above a blocked fallopian tube to below the blockage. It permits hormonal treatment to trigger ovulation and support pregnancy. It permits intrauterine injection of sperm, provided that the sperm was collected during a normal act of intercourse in the marriage (via a condom with a few holes pricked in it.)

It does not permit insemination with the sperm of a man who is not the husband, nor the use of an ovum not from the wife. It does permit the adoption and implantation of frozen embryos.

So it isn’t that what occurs by nature must be God’s will. It’s a question of the limits on tweaking nature, and keeping those tweaks within the sacred nature of the marriage act. This can certainly look like hair-splitting, but there’s a complex consistency to it.

Back to the article - the teacher would never have had a problem if she hadn’t talked about it - who would ever have known how the baby was conceived? Was she unaware of the teachings of the Church, or did she decide to be confrontational?


46 posted on 04/26/2012 10:18:07 AM PDT by heartwood
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To: Abathar

I keep thinking the only way the Parish found out about this is that she told them. How else would they know? If she truly wanted to attempt IVF... she should have kept her private life... private. By telling the Priest, she essentially painted him into a corner. IMHO.


47 posted on 04/26/2012 10:22:40 AM PDT by momtothree
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To: heartwood

I appreciate the thought you put into your reply. Thank you for that. I often like asking questions, to help understand those with viewpoints different than mine - I just try to be as respectful to othes, as I expect them to be to me and my faith.

That said, I know have a much better grasp of the ‘why’.

And I agree with your final assessment. She did not have to tell anyone what she did, as it was truly not anyone’s business. But, once she informed others about this - the church had no choice but to respond. She knew she was in violation of the morality clause of her employer, she went ahead and pursued this course of action, she made it known that she had flagrantly violated the contract of her employment - now she is demanding that ‘her’ morality over-rides the ‘morality’ of the person providing her paycheck. Too bad she threw what appears to be an outstanding career opportunity away.


48 posted on 04/26/2012 10:27:35 AM PDT by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Hodar

As part of the IVF process, many fertilized embryos are created that will not be implanted. Those are either destroyed, or left to sit in a freezer until the person wants to try and get pregnant again. The person undergoing IVF might successfully have one child, but at the same time kill dozens of others in the process.


49 posted on 04/26/2012 10:31:29 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: A.A. Cunningham

For man, I believe it’s so we can make laws and assign responsibilities. I don’t think anything is evil in God’s eyes.


50 posted on 04/26/2012 10:34:07 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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