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Mormonism: A Latter Day Deception
Mormon Deception.org ^ | Martin Wishnatsky

Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

What the world calls "Mormonism" will rule every nation.
God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it.

Chief Apostle Orson Hyde
Journal of Discourses, VII, 48-53

Mormonism is neither a fraternal order nor a religious association: it is a kingdom, the kingdom of God. In the words of Joseph F. Smith, sixth Prophet of the Church:

The greatest event that has ever occurred in the world, since the resurrection of the Son of God from the tomb and his ascension on high, was the coming of the Father and the Son to that boy Joseph Smith, to prepare the way for the laying of the foundation of his kingdom — not the kingdom of man — never more to cease nor to be overturned.

The kingdom "never more to cease nor to be overturned" is the messianic kingdom foreseen in the second chapter of the Book of Daniel:

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Stated Church historian B.H. Roberts:

We are warranted in the belief, however, that it will be a tangible, bona fide government of God on earth, consisting of a king; subordinate officers; laws; subjects; and the whole earth for its territory - for its dominion.

History of the Church, Vol. I, Intro. p. xxxvi. The Mormons equate this kingdom as well with the words of Revelation 11:15: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign forever and ever."

"The kingdom is organized," wrote Brigham Young in 1844, "and although as yet no bigger than a grain of mustard seed, the little plant is in a flourishing condition and our prospects brighter than ever." Id., Vol. VII, p.381—Note. Few Americans comprehended the magnitude of the political expectations of the Mormons. "As was observed by Brother Pratt, that kingdom is actually organized and the inhabitants of the earth do not know it," stated Brigham Young on July 8,1855. "If this people know anything about it, all right; it is organized preparatory to taking effect in the due time of the Lord, and in the manner that shall please him." Id.

Joseph Smith, capitalizing on the fervor for primitive Christianity that animated the American frontier in the 1820's and 1830's, claimed that Jesus Christ Himself had chosen him to restore His original ceremonies, build up a Church to greet Him at the Second Coming, and rule the earth during the Millennium. "Flee the wrath to come" and "gather to Zion" were the watchwords of Mormon missionaries in the early days. "The missionary was confident the end of the world was hourly approaching," wrote one observer, "that soon the earth and all therein, except such as embraced Mormonism, would be destroyed, and his benevolence made him use extraordinary exertions to bring the human race within the pale that he assured them could alone save them from impending destruction." William White Smith, The Prophets (1855).

Although the Mormons argue that the church of God will be distinct from the government of God during the Millennium, this is true only in the sense that the communist party of the Soviet Union was different from the government of Russia after the revolution of 1917. Brigham Young did say that the "kingdom grows out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it is not the church." He also said, however, that "no one can draw the line between the government of God and the government of the children of men." History of the Church, Vol. VII, p.382; April 9, 1844. In fact, although non-Mormons may participate in the rulership of the millennial kingdom, the Mormon priesthood will control its organization and administration. The kingdom of God and the church of God will both be run by the Mormon Church - under the direction of Christ, who will pass freely back and forth "through the veil" during this period.

"What I mean by the kingdom of God," wrote Joseph F. Smith in October, 1906, "is the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, over which the Son of God presides, and not man. That is what I mean." On another occasion he said, "I know that this is the kingdom of God and that God is at the helm." It is such claims that inspired Apostle Parley Pratt to say of Joseph Smith: "His work will live to endless ages. Unnumbered millions yet unborn will mention his name with honor." Grieving at the blindness of humanity in failing to recognize the nascent kingdom in their midst, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson wrote in 1948: "The history of humanity has, to a large extent, been one of groping blindly in the dark, fearing for the future and yet resisting the guiding hand of inspired men who would willingly lead mankind in the path of safety." Forward to W. Cleon Skousen, Prophecy and Modern Times (1948). At the head of the path stands Joseph Smith, holder of the keys of salvation — "keys which will unlock the door into the kingdom of God to every man who is worthy to enter and which will close that door against every soul that will not obey the law of God." It can hardly be expected that Christ will allow the governance of His kingdom to rest in the hands of those who refuse to acknowledge His chosen medium of salvation. "No man or woman in this dispensation," declared Brigham Young, "will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." Journal of Discourses 7:289.

Well known and often cited within the church is the utterance of Joseph Smith that "the day will come when the Constitution of the United States hangs by a thread — and will be saved only by the elders of the Church." One student of Mormonism phrased this expectation somewhat differently: "They are promising their followers," wrote Bruce Kinney in 1912, "that they will in time control things politically in the United States." Mormonism: the Islam of America. Mormon political activity is rooted in the assumption that the day is coming when the American political system will collapse and the hierarchical apparatus of the Mormon Church will take its place. The Mormon Church, in this sense, is a shadow government — like the ayatollahs of Iran — only awaiting the Biblically-predicted chaos that shall sweep away American democracy and install Mormon theocracy in its place — to reign forever, "never more to be overturned." A commonly-cited scenario envisions the inevitable degeneration of the godless American polity into the anarchy envisioned by Christ in his discourse on the Mount of Olivet: "Nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom . . . . Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death." Mark 13:8, 12.

Joseph Smith added his own personal vision to this prophecy: "I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers."

The principle of "gathering to Zion as God pours out His wrath" is fundamental to Mormonism. Current policy is that Mormons should stay in their own localities, not migrate to Salt Lake City, but "build up Zion" where they live. When the time comes, however, the Prophet shall summon all Mormons everywhere to gather in to Salt Lake City for shelter while the Great Anarchy sweeps the globe. After the Great Wrath, Christ Himself shall return, appearing first in a Mormon Temple in Independence, Missouri on a plot of ground designated by Joseph Smith for this purpose. This Temple shall be the centerpiece of a holy city, the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, which shall surround it and become the new capital of Mormonism. From it the world shall be ruled as the Mormons who fled to Salt Lake City for protection return to their hometowns and home lands as rulers and organizers of the new and everlasting theocratic kingdom. Although Christ will also appear in Jerusalem to organize the repentant and worshipful Jews into the Millennial Kingdom, the real seat of world government will be the New Jerusalem in Missouri. The two capitals will be formally co-equal, but the New Jerusalem will be the source of power, much as the Disney Corporation is to Disneyland. The new Jewish kingdom will require instruction, guidance and ultimately subordination to the Mormon authorities, for he who receives authority from another is subservient to the giver of that authority. The Jews can only receive the authentic priesthood of God from the Mormons, and therefore, must be beholden and obedient to them.

Yes, the messianic kingdom described by Isaiah is already here in embryo in Utah; the Jews shall be part of it - indeed, it cannot achieve its fullness until they do — but they will not rule it. That question was decided in 1820 when Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the Keys of the Millennium. In the 1830's one dramatic day Moses and Elijah also came to visit and invested the Prophet Joseph with their authority as well. "And it shall come to pass in the last days," reads Isaiah 2:2, "that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." In the annotated Mormon edition of the Bible, the mountains here are the Rocky Mountains and "the Lord's house" is the Salt Lake Temple. "For out of Zion shall go forth the law" continues Isaiah, supposedly referring to the Mormon capital, "and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem," the Jewish capital.

The Mormons have quite a message for Messianic Jews — quite a message — and someday, no doubt, if they get their hands on the levers of power, they will attempt to deliver it — first as protectors of the Jews and then as their rulers.

Before the Church became a national institution and began to soften and obscure its publicly-displayed doctrines, the inevitable consolidation of all earthly power into the hands of the Mormon authorities was clearly understood. "The understanding," related Bishop Cahoon in his testimony, "was that God had established His Kingdom upon the earth, and the Mormon Church was the Kingdom of God, and all that belonged to the Mormon Church were expected to yield allegiance to that church, to that Kingdom alone, and the highest allegiance was to the Mormon Church — the Kingdom of God." An oath administered in the endowment ceremony at that time committed the priesthood to "avenge the blood of the prophets" and teach this doctrine to their children and their children's children. The Church "taught," testified Bishop Cahoon, "that this government would be overthrown, and the Kingdom of God be established on its ruins . . . . They didn't care much about the government of the United States when they had a kingdom." The comparable oath that I took in the Mormon Temple in Washington, D.C., in August, 1981 had no political overtones but did commit me to pledge all my time talent and treasure to the upbuilding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such an oath does not leave much room for any other loyalty.

The official establishment of the government of God as distinct from the government of the Church took place in 1844 when Joseph Smith organized a secret Council of Fifty as the ruling politburo of the kingdom of God. This council encompassed non-Mormons, including Joseph Jackson, who, by his own report, was offered $3,000 by the Prophet to kill the governor of Missouri. In the days before the authority of the United States government became effective in Utah, the Council of Fifty, according to church historians Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, "began deliberations on the nature of civil government to be established in the valley." Having ruled the Salt Lake valley directly through the church, Brigham Young and his associates now decided to establish a civil government subsidiary, nominally independent of the church, called the State of Deseret. On March 8,1849, three days after the opening of the constitutional convention, a standard state constitution of the time was adopted — and an election scheduled for two months later to select officers for the new state. Ballots, however, were actually cast four days later on March 12,1849 — somewhat limiting the amount of campaigning any independent candidate might undertake. Brigham Young won the office of governor and Heber C. Kimball chief justice, both winning 100% of the ballots cast for their respective offices. The election of the temporal government of the Kingdom of God had as much resemblance to a free election as the elections conducted by the governments of Eastern Europe in 1946. This procedure was deliberate. "Every government lays the foundation of its own downfall," declared Brigham Young in 1872, "when it permits what are called democratic elections." "Remember," said the church authority who interviewed me for my worthiness to become a Mormon priest, "the Church is a theocracy, not a democracy." Any government the church creates, it creates in its own image.

All power lies with the Prophet who is God's representative on earth; his word is law. As the Prophet is to the Church, so the Bishop is to the local ward. Unlike the rabbi of a Jewish congregation, who is dependent upon the favor of the synagogue for his position, the Bishop is chosen and installed solely by his ecclesiastical superiors. The notion of "division" or "separation" of powers is anathema to Mormonism.

The members of the ward are sternly enjoined to "sustain the authorities" for this is the "only true" church of God and the officers of it God's chosen — selected by "inspiration" after "prayerful consideration," and installed by the laying on of hands. To dispute the church authorities is to defy God. And who would do that?

Thus, it is not surprising that, given the occasion and the opportunity, the Mormon hierarchy will create a civil government in the image of their church government — elections by acclamation and zealous obedience the essence of virtue. The popularity of military careers for Mormon youth is a direct outgrowth of the inculcation of these principles. That the Mormons fully expect to rule the United States and the world as well one day is, of course, a political hallucination that could never happen. If so, however, it may be expected that they will formally reverence the U.S. Constitution while simultaneously abolishing the division of powers, based on mistrust of all unchecked human authority, that underlies it. A portion of Bishop Cahoon's testimony, given in 1889, expresses the sentiments that still reign in the minds of the Mormon authorities:

Q. Did they ever teach you anything in regard to the overthrowing of the Constitution of the United States, did you ever hear that at all?

A. The Constitution of the United States would be, perhaps, an after consideration; after the government was overthrown the leaders of the Mormon Church would reform that document to suit themselves.

Q. Did you ever hear them say that the document needed reforming?

A. O, yes.

Q. You never heard it taught that that was a Divine Document?

A. O, yes, they taught that it was an inspired document, but that it would be better - eventually it would be better.

Q. Who was going to better it?

A. The priesthood of the Mormon Church.

Q. When?

A. Well, when they got it in their hands.

Q. When was that going to be?

A. Well, directly, it has been put off from time to time. They say it is pretty near now.

Q. State when and where you heard it.

A. Heard it all the while, ever since I was in the church.

To obscure the fundamental incompatibility of Mormon doctrine with democratic politics, Brigham Young made the remarkable statement: "The Constitution and laws of the United States resemble a theocracy more closely than any government now on earth." Journal of Discourses 6:342. He came slightly closer to the truth in the following statement:

Few, if any, understand what a theocratic government is. In every sense of the word, it is a republican government, and differs but little in form from our National, State, and Territorial Governments; but its subjects will recognize the will and dictation of the Almighty . . . .

Id.

There is no room for legitimate disagreement in Mormonism. Anyone who questions church practices is considered to have lost his faith in revealed truth. Such an individual must speedily repent and humble himself, begging forgiveness or he will be excommunicated. A man named Morris had the effrontery to establish his own mini-Mormonism in Utah in the days of Brigham Young, claiming to receive instructions from God as did the Mormon prophet. Brigham sent his "avenger" on horseback and shot the fledgling prophet dead in broad daylight in the presence of his followers. John Taylor, successor to Brigham Young as Prophet, made it clear that the Mormons envision no separation of church and state once they take power.

Was the kingdom that the Prophets talked about, that should be set up in the latter times, going to be a Church? Yes. And a state? Yes, it was going to be both Church and State, to rule both temporarily (sic) and spiritually.

When Utah became a state and began to elect Senators and Congressmen, some question arose as to whether a Mormon Senator would consider himself bound by his oath to support the Constitution and laws of the United States, or whether his endowment oaths of supreme loyalty to the Church would prevail. John Taylor answered as follows:

It may be asked, How can we live under the dominion and laws of the United States and be subjects of another kingdom? Because the kingdom of God is higher, and its laws are so much more exalted than those of any other nation, that it is the easiest thing in life for a servant of God to keep any of their laws and, as I have said before, this we have uniformly done.

Journal of Discourses 6:24. The Mormon leadership fully expect the American government to collapse as a prelude to their assumption of power on the American continent. "When the Lord commands it through his living prophets," writes a BYU faculty member in the June, 1976 Ensign, "the New Jerusalem will become the capital city . . . ." The Constitution will then become the responsibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time," warns the Ensign. "Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task." Should the Mormon apparatus ever come to power in the United States during a period of inner turmoil, this country will become a white tyranny, the ecclesiastical mirror image of communism. "And this is the redemption of Zion," said Joseph Smith in 1841, "when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory."

The Mormons will come as saviors of the constitution, firm-willed virtuous patriots full of love for God and country. Their ecclesiastical autocracy will come wrapped in the evocative symbolism of constitutional purification.

But, of course, it could never happen here. Joseph Smith was but twenty-five years of age, full of the fire of youth, when he donned the mantle of prophethood: Brigham Young was forty-seven. There has not been a prophet under the age of sixty since. The Church is a mature businesslike institution that discourages excessive fanaticism. Its doctrines have been softened and blended to have as wide an appeal as possible. Tradition since World War II has chosen the oldest apostle for the office of Prophet. Of the five prophets since 1945, four were in their mid-seventies when chosen and the fifth over ninety. The current Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, is eighty-seven: his two counsellors are eighty-four and eighty-five. The Church in many of its activities today displays a silly farcical spirit — a spirit I always found offensive but now view as inherent in a company of religious play actors. Gordon B. Hinckley, who was recently elevated from the Council of the Twelve Apostles to be a third counsellor to the Prophet, was active in the 1970's as an adviser to the Public Communications Department — the Church's propaganda agency. [In 1995, Hinckley became the 15th President and Prophet of the Church.] He worked, in particular, on the "subject content" for the Washington, D.C. Visitor's Center, which is attached to the Temple.

In the Washington center, life-size mannequins representing Isaiah, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and other prophets will speak their messages from the scriptures. With translucent masks and hidden rear projection, the figures will speak as living oracles.

Ensign, August, 1974.

One does not associate such Disneyland techniques with traditional religious solemnity. They remind one more of Revelation, Chapter 13: "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Whether the Wizards of Mormon will one day install a humanoid mannequin as prophet is beyond my power to foresee. Whether or not a young ambitious technocrat prophet will be able to simulate the second coming of Christ and gather an ocean of white-robed believers to the templed Missouri hills to witness the inauguration of the Millennium is also beyond my power of prediction. A visit to the Hill Cumorah pageant staged every summer in Palmyra, New York to commemorate and re-enact Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon will keep interested observers of the Millennial Kingdom up to date on the state of the art in religious pyrotechnics, while we wait patiently for the Mormon "rendezvous with our Constitution's destiny." Ensign, June, 1976.



TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; inman; lieslieslies; mormon; romney
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To: Deb

It’s trolling with raw meat on these threads isn’t it.

When I see respected FR folk as diverse as Jeff Head and Deb lambasted and disparaged on a site centered on conservative activism it shows that the posters are here for one purpose only.


101 posted on 04/26/2012 4:50:45 PM PDT by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years.)
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To: GOP Poet
to save Californians' butts

But NOT Massachusetts?? So I it call 'severely' bogus!

102 posted on 04/26/2012 4:51:09 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
My understanding of mormon teaching is that if you are not considered worthy, you will never have the chance to meet God in person.

Your understanding is correct and if you are a woman who's husband refuses to call her name you don't get to go anywhere.

103 posted on 04/26/2012 4:54:41 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39; GOP Poet
Here is a list.

From the Democratic Underground, surely no lover of Mormons. PRESS RELEASE: "Catholics stand with Mormons: Prop 8 protestors are 'bigots, intolerant'

From the New York Times, surely no friend of the Mormons. Mormons tipped the scales in ban on gay marriage

Here is a wiki with many sources on who helped with Proposition 8. California Proposition 8

From Minneapolis. Proposition 8 and Beyond

From the San Francisco Chronicle. Catholics, Mormons allied to pass Prop. 8

The Boise Backpage contains links to other news organizations and websites about Proposition 8. I saw the Wall Street Journal in the list. The Mormon (LDS) Church and Proposition 8 -- Contributions, Campaigning and Consequences

On a personal note, my mom is from California, her brother, my cousins and members of the LDS church in Fresno worked tirelessly to get Proposition 8 passed. I have several cousins who want nothing to do with church and they were out there working as well to pass Prop 8.

I do know for a fact that they worked in coordination with other organizations and religions to go door to door and tell people about Proposition 8. They also went to or ran call centers to contact people.

I need to get my mom from the airport, I am sure I will have many replies when I check back in tomorrow.

104 posted on 04/26/2012 4:56:32 PM PDT by Utah Girl (John 15:12, Matthew 5:44)
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To: KC Burke
diverse - Laughing Pictures, Images and Photos
105 posted on 04/26/2012 4:59:22 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: GOP Poet
I personally thank God for ally's in his name.

Be careful what you associate with God, the Father of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, on what *you think* is of God nor use HIS NAME in vain for your agenda. Massachusetts agrees with me.

106 posted on 04/26/2012 5:02:00 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: KC Burke
'Conservative activism' ... how very Alinskyish of you to use terms inappropriately. FR is a conservative activism site, but I don't think it's meant to be a 'protect those pushing non-Christian deceptions' site, do you? The ISM some of us address regularly is antithetical to Christianity. I'll give you a couple of examples of this particular ISM being antithetical to Christ:

"We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ's] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 299, 1859]

"Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, "it is an immaterial substance!" What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.
I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." [ LDS Prophet Bingham Young, JoD 1:50-51 April 9, 1852]

I wouldn't want you to be confused by the deceptions MormonISM apologists spittle at FR. Do you see how the above quoted teachings from LDS inc approved sources is antithetical to Christianity? Are you aware that this religion from which those blasdphemies have arisen claims to be 'christianity restored'?

Some will continue to expose these blasphemies, so long as allowed at FR, regardless of how you try to squelch us using alinskyish tactics.

107 posted on 04/26/2012 5:02:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: presently no screen name; Jim Robinson
There is no getting him elected - the POS ROMNEY is GIVING it to him. Barry has ALL THE AMNO on Romney - ALL READY with his staff being busy for a year. So the maggot MORMON is responsible - for allowing Barry and all his thugs run rampant on America for 4 more years - DON'T be looking for others to blame like liberals do!

Amen!

108 posted on 04/26/2012 5:04:18 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: GOP Poet
Me thinks the trashing of Mormons and Mormonism without a doubt linked to Romney's

Duh! Another rocket scientist!

109 posted on 04/26/2012 5:07:00 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; svcw; Godzilla
When you used the phrase “spat on”, it sounded so much like our old friend, Saundra Duffy! Of course, she exaggerated as much as you just did.

You're right AMPU...sounds very very familiar to me too.

110 posted on 04/26/2012 5:07:00 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: KC Burke; aMorePerfectUnion; svcw; Godzilla; pennyfarmer
a site centered on conservative activism

Pay attention. This is the Religion Forum. That's what we discuss. If you don't approve, just don't click on a thread entitled "Mormonism: A Latter Day Deception"

BTW, both Jeff and Deb are doing fine in their defense of mormonism and "lambasting"...maybe you want to join in?

111 posted on 04/26/2012 5:15:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: svcw

Someday you will get old and will also try posting from your cell phone when you are exasperated.


112 posted on 04/26/2012 5:16:45 PM PDT by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; svcw; MHGinTN; colorcountry; Utah Binger; SZonian; Colofornian; Godzilla; ...

Your post #94 is one of the very best explanations of the false mormon christ that has been posted on FR...excellent job!


113 posted on 04/26/2012 5:23:00 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: svcw; aMorePerfectUnion

Did either of you leave off the sarcasm tag? I sure hope so.


114 posted on 04/26/2012 5:25:05 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: KC Burke

?


115 posted on 04/26/2012 5:25:19 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

So - what I read: Mormons are going to try to be the agents of the “one world religion” many of us Dispensationalists believe will be set up, with the AntiChrist ultimately being the object of worship...

Then, 7 years later... they are gonna get a great big surprise!


116 posted on 04/26/2012 5:26:36 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: Utah Girl
I do know for a fact that they worked in coordination with other organizations and religions to go door to door and tell people about Proposition 8.

Thanks, UG. Our problem was that the poster kept insisting that mormons ALONE were responsible for the work. There was a united effort as your post shows.

117 posted on 04/26/2012 5:28:06 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: presently no screen name

Nope.
If the lds husband does not call his wife after death, she goes nowhere. (Part of the secret temple ceremony is a new name for the wife)
So the lds wife must be terrified to defy, even question him, then to be called unworthy by her priest husband, then the bishop then the stake president.
Can you imagine what that is like to live under?


118 posted on 04/26/2012 5:30:35 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Bryanw92
and another great Christian denomination will be apostate.

Sorry to break the news to you - but that particular denomination fell into apostasy some time ago. One particular (but relatively more recent) example is the adoption of the official view that there are many ways to Heaven/God - that all religions are equal... summed up with "we all worship the same God" - including Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and all variety of dark jungle spiritualism...

So much for Christ's statement "I am the Way, the Truth, and The Life. NO man cometh to the father BUT BY ME".

But all this debate and finger-pointing is a distraction from the far bigger picture of the sad reality - we have a Satan-led, Muslim Communist vs. a Satan-led cultist Socialist in November. I don't even see a "lesser evil".

119 posted on 04/26/2012 5:35:01 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: MHGinTN
You are a special case. I have read hundreds of your posts over the years and there isn't an ounce of troll in you. You apparently don't care for the Mormon church but since I have no interest in it either, the fact that I have read and appreciated hundreds of your posts without knowing that about you tells me that you are judicious in posting about your concerns.

I am more concerned about those that come to this site and post ninety percent of their posts on the religion threads only and then only about the Mormons.

I try to ignore the religion threads but reading from a cell phone you sometimes just click on a funny or blunt comment and there you are in Bloody Mary's throne room watching someone you know be disparaged.

120 posted on 04/26/2012 5:35:09 PM PDT by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years.)
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To: MHGinTN
; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS

WOW! The more I read, the more I feel the need to stop reading. The basis of Christianity and they say 'no'. Well, they richly deserve the label as cult by that one statement.

121 posted on 04/26/2012 5:35:46 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Utah Girl
I am sure I will have many replies when I check back in tomorrow.

I don't see a reason in your post for "many replies"...it appears factual and straight forward to me. "I do know for a fact that they worked in coordination with other organizations and religions

That's all that was needed, IMO and it wasn't what we were seeing from others.

122 posted on 04/26/2012 5:36:48 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: TheBattman

>>Sorry to break the news to you - but that particular denomination fell into apostasy some time ago. One particular (but relatively more recent) example is the adoption of the official view that there are many ways to Heaven/God - that all religions are equal... summed up with “we all worship the same God” - including Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and all variety of dark jungle spiritualism...

Some leftist pastors say that, but the offical stance of the church is still that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father.


123 posted on 04/26/2012 5:43:56 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: TheBattman; onyx; Jim Robinson
we have a Satan-led, Muslim Communist vs. a Satan-led cultist Socialist in November. I don't even see a "lesser evil".

Romney began demonizing anyone he saw as a threat to his nomination way back in '07-'08. He used his millions and the millions of fellow mormons to demonize all the candidates this season (except RuPaul).

He has effectively ruined the chance for conservative Christians to see a nominee that could possibly unite the Christian conservatives, the Tea Partys and possibly more independents out of his own selfishness. He will lose in a landslide and secure four more years of Obama.

THAT, my FRiend is just plain evil...not a "lesser" evil.

124 posted on 04/26/2012 5:46:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: greyfoxx39; TheBattman; Jim Robinson

The Battman doesn’t see a lesser evil either. You’re right that Romney, his crew and his millions have been destroying our TEA Party, Christian patriots since ‘07 to pave his way to the nomination and White House. Romney has an insatiable lust for power.

I know it’s been proved that Romney was behind some of the early smears against Governor Sarah Palin when she was first named McCain’s VP. There’s no useful purpose in repeating myself, but I will, for posterity. I will not vote for the slimebag S.O.B.


125 posted on 04/26/2012 5:59:36 PM PDT by onyx (SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC, DONATE MONTHLY. If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, let me know.)
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To: onyx; Jim Robinson
I know it’s been proved that Romney was behind some of the early smears against Governor Sarah Palin when she was first named McCain’s VP.

Yes. When you see the words, "this will be the dirtiest campaign in history", the term fits BOTH candidates!

126 posted on 04/26/2012 6:05:03 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: KC Burke
I find a glass of wine or a nice super cold Bombay Sapphire martini with three olives helps on occasion.
127 posted on 04/26/2012 6:05:54 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: svcw
If the lds husband does not call his wife after death

? How does he call her? Like shouting out after she is dead - Like in grief?

Part of the secret temple ceremony is a new name for the wife

So this ceremony is when? When they get married? Does she pick our her new name?

So the lds wife must be terrified to defy, even question him, then to be called unworthy by her priest husband, then the bishop then the stake president.

Well, if she believes it. I can't understand, what happens to them when they become mormons - common sense is suddenly forbidden? I'm trying to make sense of this - does being a husband automatically make him a priest? So I take it - their private business is the church's business if a bishop or a president are involved. Stake? Like putting a stake through you/backstabbing? :)

Can you imagine what that is like to live under?

No. Reading about it for five minutes is enough. I wouldn't live next door to anyone I was terrified of - much less under my roof.

Now what you posted, is this something like their 'original' ways/many years ago or is this practiced currently?

128 posted on 04/26/2012 6:06:16 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Good question. I think the husband calls his wife/wives after his death.
Yes, it is when they get married in the temple, where she gets her named, the name is assigned someone not her husband.
Men become this priests thing at around 12 or so, don’t really get it myself.
Yes, their personal problems can become known by the bishop and stake president, friends well everyone I guess. My lds family seems to want everyone to know.
No this is current.
Look in freepmail.


129 posted on 04/26/2012 6:16:01 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Deb

Mormons were the main financial supporters of Vermont’s Joseph Smith and his doctrines and covenants 132, defining marriage as between one man and many women.


130 posted on 04/26/2012 6:44:47 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Mormons were the main financial supporters of Vermont’s Joseph Smith and his doctrines and covenants 132, defining marriage as between one man and many women.

Now THERE'S a good point!

131 posted on 04/26/2012 6:48:52 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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Comment #132 Removed by Moderator

To: Utah Girl; Deb; aMorePerfectUnion; greyfoxx39; svcw; Tennessee Nana; MHGinTN
I was not aware any group but the Mormons campaigned to stop Prop 8 and I live in L.A. The Mormons were the most vocal and took the brunt of the backlash from the gay/Marxist troops. [Deb, post #82]

The Mormons contributed heavily re: Prop 8 -- perhaps up to 40% of needed funds -- certainly more than the 2-3% of the State that their population represents in CA...
...and yes, they took the brunt of the backlash...
...but no, they weren't the most vocal because they did things via informal Lds networks already established...
...whereas 'tis Evangelicals which had (and still have) access to the loudest media sources.

On a personal note, my mom is from California, her brother, my cousins and members of the LDS church in Fresno worked tirelessly to get Proposition 8 passed. I have several cousins who want nothing to do with church and they were out there working as well to pass Prop 8. I do know for a fact that they worked in coordination with other organizations and religions to go door to door and tell people about Proposition 8. They also went to or ran call centers to contact people. [Utah Girl]

Yes, the Lds did a lot in 2008 re: Prop 8...and did a fair amount for a similar CA ballot initiative in 2000 (Prop 22) as well.

But what neither Deb -- nor Utah Girl -- acknowledges is the pro-homosexual rights' work done by the Mormon church in Salt Lake City in 2009...see links in column 2 of chart below...showing an abrupt "about face":

GOV. Romney Mormon 'scripture' & History Sources Quotes
Gov. Romney pro-civil unions for same-sex couples 2002-2005 (before he turned against it) and he is still in favor of taxpayer-funded domestic partnership benefits for sexual minorities. He says he supports 'Partnership agreements'. Also, Gov. Romney sucked up to the Bay State Gay Log Cabin...saying he would give the GLBT youth funding a greater spotlight at the fed level to emulate…he was endorsed twice by the Log Cabin Club of MA; he said in 1994 and reiterated in 2007 that he was in favor of forcing businesses to hire alternative sexual minorities (in ’94 he wanted feds to do it; now he wants the states to do it...his third position on that issue). Recent Lds history: Homosexual rights: Mormon church supports Salt Lake City's protections for gay rights and Mormons Back Salt Lake City Gay Rights Laws 10 reasons Christians should reject Romney and “Mitt Romney’s deception, His Stealth Promotion of ”Gay Rights” and “Gay Marriage” in Massachusetts,” book by Amy Contrada Per Amy Contrada’s book, “Mitt Romney’s deception, His Stealth Promotion of ”Gay Rights” and “Gay Marriage” in Massachusetts,” Gov. Romney, from 2003-2006: worked closely with homosexual activists and pro-gay rights advisers; implemented “gay marriage” through his executive departments without legislative authorization, violating the Massachusetts Constitution; pushed a constitutional amendment strategy doomed to failure, and ignored the call to remove the activist judges who ruled for “gay marriage”; funded and promoted GLBT indoctrination in the public schools through his “Governor’s Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth,” and his Department of Education “Safe Schools” programs; undermined religious freedom, failing to defend Catholic Charities in the “homosexual adoptions” fiasco; continued or implemented radical homosexual and transgender programs in his executive departments.

133 posted on 04/26/2012 7:38:50 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: KC Burke

From my phone!


134 posted on 04/26/2012 7:49:42 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39; KC Burke; aMorePerfectUnion; svcw; Godzilla

I have said this before.

Truth without love is cruel, love without truth is deception.

All of us “Anti’s” approach these threads with that in mind. We speak with truth and facts. That is why there are so many quotes from LDS sources posted by the “Anti’s” we want you to have the facts and the truth with the knowledge that if someone leaves Mormonism that they will be welcomed by Christians without judgment.

The attacks are leveled on the religion not the people. It is the organization that Christians have a problem with, not the people.

Religion is crap, it seeks to replace Jesus with man made authority. It is clearly evident in the LDS religion.

Using the LDS model of salvation a drowning man better at least know the breast stroke and be able to implement it for an indeterminate amount of time. In Christianity a savior saves he doesn’t just cheer you on.


135 posted on 04/26/2012 8:10:29 PM PDT by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: GOP Poet; aMorePerfectUnion; Deb; Utah Girl; greyfoxx39; svcw; Tennessee Nana
I think that anyone that supported Prop 8 is a hero and fighter for the Lord. Yet credit should be given where credit is due. The Mormons fought hard for the law of the Lord on earth.

First, see my post #133 where I acknowledge what the Mormons did in CA for both 2008 & 2000.

Still, CA is but one state out of 50...and one out of a dozen or so where marriage has especially had to be protected from homosexual activists...especially over these past 12 yrs or so...

One state out of a dozen or so is less than a .100 "state scope" batting average ...and two years out of the past dozen is but a .167 average even in the state where they've attempted the most! (CA)

136 posted on 04/26/2012 8:43:46 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: pennyfarmer

Well said.


137 posted on 04/26/2012 8:57:48 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Bryanw92
Some leftist pastors say that

Some Leftist pastors? Like the ones who put up the billboards all over the place just a few years back - that were put up, not by a single church, but by the UMC as a denomination? After those signs finally came down, the "open minds, open hearts" campaign started - which (at least in the radio spots I heard) included giving equal heed to those who essentially worship "mother earth" and would prefer to think of church as getting together to discuss the environment, or a myriad of other secular and even unholy pursuits in the name of "church".

138 posted on 04/26/2012 8:58:19 PM PDT by TheBattman (Isn't the lesser evil... still evil?)
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To: Jeff Head; cva66snipe; greyfoxx39
There have been numerous former leaders, who have LEFT THE CHURCH and had occassion to attack it who would try and get people to believe that the church somehow is bent on "taking over" the United states and making some kind of religious government to prepare for Christ's coming and that simply is not true. I have been in the Church for 42 years and held numerous leadership positions and no such occurance or desire or plan or hope has ever been discussed.

Jeff Head, the Mormon, would have you believe that the Lds leaders I cite below in this chart have as he false claimed -- "left the church" (unless he is talking about other ex-Mormons)...

Tell, us, Jeff...which of these Lds leaders below "left the church?"

Lds Leader Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)
John Taylor Lds 'Prophet' #3 “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)
Orson Hyde President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)
Heber J. Grant Lds 'Prophet' #7 "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)
Harold B. Lee Lds 'Prophet' #11 ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)
Spencer Kimball Lds 'Prophet' #12 "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)
What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)
Ezra Taft Benson Lds 'Prophet' #13 Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #5 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #9 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?)
Benson (cont'd) Fundamental #10 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?)
B.H. Roberts LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180
Mitt Romney as POTUS??? Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]

Aside from the above Lds leaders, Jeff Head & other Mormons hold the following Lds "scriptures" as "sacred":

Hopefully, the rolls of "truthing" Mormons will increase as a result of the threatening theo-political Mormonism seeks to sweep its way into the White House...including Mormon "scriptures" like these two (Note, ALL: "Zion" to Mormons = the Mormon church):

“…if Zion do these things she shall prosper, and spread herself and become very glorious, very great, and very terrible. And the nations of the earth shall honor her" (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 97:18-19)

"For behold, I say unto you that Zion shall flourish…And the day shall come when the nations of the earth shall tremble because of her, and shall fear because of her terrible ones". (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 64:41, 43)

139 posted on 04/26/2012 9:03:27 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: TheBattman
You know what they say, if you have an open mind your brains fall out.
place marker

140 posted on 04/26/2012 9:03:48 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

I did read it all, grey. And what I stated still stnads. When Christ returns HE will be the ruler, the Lord of the whole earth and He will govern in rightousness.

If that is the case and He asks the Elders of His Church at the time to minister, I expect they will do so, and all Christians will flock to those calling at His direction...whatever it may be.

we have had this concersation in the past, on several occasions.

At that time, I will happily and gratefully do as Christ bids, and I expect you will too.


141 posted on 04/26/2012 9:04:29 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Half truth as you define it, AMPU. But that does not make it so, that just makes it your interpretation of what I say. But God knows and sees and judges the heart and I am grateful for that, and comfortable with it. I have sincerely born you my witness and it is up to you to deal with it however you will. But the witness is sincere and it is true. It is not "finely crafted" it is not meant to hide anything, it is simply my wintess and the feelings of my own heart regarding my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The fact that you think you have to tell me what I believe, and then try and define my words to fit that definition, is what is really happening here, and it ios ashame that you feel you have to be so judgemental...but if that is your desire, so be it. I am more than content for others reading to make up their own mind, and as I stated, ready, willing, and comfortable to stand before my Savior when He calls me, for I know He knows my heart and the truth of my convictions to Him. God's best to you and yours.
142 posted on 04/26/2012 9:12:07 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head; cva66snipe; greyfoxx39; All
I believe that church members do and certainly will fight and die for this nation and the Constitution. God in Heaven and His Son are certainly capable of miraculously intervening and they have done so (IMHO) as regards this nation in the past.

And that is also counterbalanced by the 2nd, 3rd, & 4TH generations of Mormons still living who were part of a quite distinctive mainstream Mormon culture that Jeff Head seems to refuse to acknowledge on these threads...It's what I called part of the Mormon heritage that's still a "wildcard" ... because you don't even know which Mormon descendents & their ancestors took this oath to their God seriously enough to carry it out:

Do we realize -- that if you were a temple Mormon in 1926 -- ALL temple Mormons promised to fulfill the following Oath of Vengeance in their sacred temple ceremony:

You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets UPON THIS NATION, and that YOU WILL TEACH THE SAME TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION. Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2335353/posts

Fact: Mitt Romney was born in 1947. We could doubt all we want that he took such an oath...since we know it wasn't imposed upon its followers by the Mormon church since 1926.

But Mitt's father, George, was 19 years old when this oath was still being imposed in the Mormon temple. How do we know George didn't take this oath...or Mitt's grandfathers??? These men made an oath to their God that they would teach it to their grandchildren and Mitt's kids, too!

Are they oath-breakers...covenant-breakers to their god? Or do they keep their promises made in their sacred temples?

What kind of wildcard "vengeance" awaits this nation by these men who swore such oaths -- and generationally fulfilled their promises to pass them on?

143 posted on 04/26/2012 9:15:58 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Jeff Head

Do you believe this?

“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)


144 posted on 04/26/2012 10:10:46 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Jeff Head; aMorePerfectUnion; greyfoxx39; cva66snipe; MHGinTN; svcw; Tennessee Nana
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the Cross and paid for all of our sins and suffering...the key thing is His atonement, His offering for our sins if we will accept Him and confess Him as Lord and Savior and the author of our Salvation.

You know, at times those of us who regularly converse with Lds walk a balance.

We love to hear statements like yours which sound Biblical...'cause frankly we know a lot of Mormons do read the Bible...and we know that influences them...

So part of that balance will be to "amen" when Mormons read Biblical conclusions. But when those Mormons then usurp General Authority authority...and portend that what they are saying represents official Mormondom... No, that just won't do.

Because it allows you to spin what isn't so.

So if the above is your personal take on the atonement, why would I want to attack that?

But...If you are claiming that is what the Mormon church officially teaches re: the atonement...think again.

Now what is incomplete re: what Jeff says...that betrays official Mormon teaching on the atonement?

#1 Christ's atonement covers our sin nature...something Mormons even deny that humankind has (a sin nature)

What do I mean by a sin nature?
Allow us all to filter our understanding thru the Living Word -- Jesus Christ: 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. (Matthew 15:19)

Our heart isn't simply corrupted by the sin we allow into our lives; no, Jesus says that it's our heart that spills over into enacted sin...

Let's go back to Jewish theological thought from a long time ago:
* Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5) [Based on this verse, Joseph Smith & Mormons call the Psalmists a liar on this...they think the Psalms teaches falsely on this]
* Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward... (Psalm 58:3)

What people mix up is that they think the Garden happens all over again at some point in their life: something environmental tempts them & then they sin "for the first time." Until then, they think they're innocent. [Mormons teach that children are perfect angels until age 8...I guess all those children's temper tantrums are just done to help parents be better people -- and no other "sinful" reason]

Unlike Adam & Eve, people do not simply sin & then become sinful; they sin because they are sinful by nature. The symptoms are the misdeeds -- not the diagnosis itself.

People's spiritual nature is dead (Eph. 2:1), which the NT describes as being in bondage to sin (Romans 6).

Now, in contrast what does the Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasize? It teaches that men are subject to punishment for their own sins; their Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]

IOW, not for Adam's sin nature that's been generationally passed down.

This, plain and simple, is heresy. And Mormons, like Jeff, are heretics for denying all of the Biblical scriptures above.

#2 What is the other Lds "atonement" teaching that Jeff Head conveniently ignore -- as taught by another Jeff H. in the Mormon hierarchy?

Answer?

Well, God bless her, Greyfoxx39 posted this relevant thread a few years back:
ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)

The speaker/writer is Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland.

From this link, Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to ONLY to members of the Mormon church:

From that Holland message: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...

Notice from the above quote all that Jeff Head left out re: Jeff Holland's claims:
* The Mormon version of the atonement doesn't "take" minus your "obedience" and diligent command-keeping;
* And that people "are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they are baptized in his name...and confirmation into Christ's church...

Per Mormonism, what is the ONLY true church on the face of the earth? The Mormon church...no membership...no atonement (payment for your sin; at-one-ment reconciliation with the Father) for you.

Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects

Mormon Source

[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain]
“...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price
Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30

Jesus is THE Spiritual Physician of spiritual physicians.

He didn't say jump thru these commandment & membership hoops, oh wretched spiritually infirmed one...oh, spiritual cancerous person, & then we'll talking about covering your sin.

No, Jeff. God in Christ levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesn’t need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)

The atonement is for us unhealthy sinners, Jeff...not just membership Mormons in good standing to collect a series of temple recommends from Bishop Romney & the rest of the Lds bishops...

We join with the apostle Paul in declaring the TRUE Gospel:

* But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
* Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. (1 Timothy 1:15)
* But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would BELIEVE in him and RECEIVE eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)

I have been a terrible sinner, Jeff. I have needed Jesus Christ the Physician. His atonement covered my sin pre-hoop jumping. Your leaders put up boundaries that don't exist.

We believe and RECEIVE as sinners (not meritoriously earn) eternal life -- just like those in Christ did before the Mormon church ever came along and labeled the rest of us "apostates."

Jeff you could no more overcome your spiritual cancer (sin) of you own volition, effort, diligence, commandment-keeping, membership alliance, and obedience to any given regimen than physical cancer. It's time for a NEW SAVIOR in your life...One Who can heal you PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY right now in HIS POWER with signs & wonders following this convo.

145 posted on 04/26/2012 10:20:53 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

As always, its a circular discussion with you.

I have accepted Jesus Christ, just as I have said. He alone saves and has saved me. Good works follow them that believe, they do not make their faith and they do not earn them a spot in Heaven. They are a natural conclusion to the acceptance and following of Him.

A real conversion produces this. Christ said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments.” We believe that, but you confuse which comes first, the horse or the cart in LDS faith...in fact, as with many denominations, members get this wrong too.

We are not earning our way to Heaven Col, despite your protestations and declarative staements to LDS people to the contrary about what they believe, as though you can see in their hearts and make this determination. You cannot, only God in Heaven and His Son can.

No, we are not and cannot “earn” our way to Heaven. We are just trying, as He commanded us, out of our love for Him, to keep His commandments as we ubnderstand them.

Again, God’s blessings to you.


146 posted on 04/26/2012 10:35:31 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: presently no screen name

First, the Journal of Dicourses is not scripture, and it is not where the “Doctrine of the Church,” is offical.

It is a set of sermons and speeches given by members and leaders of the Church over a long period of time.

Some of it is Doctrine, other is not, but is the personal feelings of those who gave it. You can find the official Church doctrine on the Church web site:

http://www.lds.org

Now, as to that quote, I believe that when He returns, which is when this is referring to, that the Lord Jesus Christ shall rule the whole earth, and I believe He shall accomplish it through the body of His saints, through His church.

Will that be exactly like the LDS Church is today?...porbably not exactly, but we believe it will be very close and that He will institute it and use it to govern in perfect rightousness, which we as imperfect mortals cannot do.

Whatever it is, all of us who truly and sincerely believe in, have faith in, and have accepted Him will be there to witness it and will all gladly abide by it at that day.


147 posted on 04/26/2012 10:41:39 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head
Then unless God said it, don't say HE decreed it! It is NOT Scriptural. He said NOTHING of the sort that Mormonism will rule! That is out and out deception to say God has decreed it and will bring it to pass.

Say what ever in your man made teachings - but DO NOT ADD 'GOD said' 'God decreed' or the HOLY SPIRIT this or Jesus said, unless it is Scriptural - because as THEY ARE ONE - THEY AGREED - or any other of manipulation words to insinuate it.

“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.

Remember - everything that is not of God will be destroyed when HE returns and that includes any man made teachings - ONLY TRUTH will stand and rule. And that 'Mormonism' statement will go up in smoke! As THE TRUTH comes from HIM ALONE!!

148 posted on 04/26/2012 11:06:18 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Jeff Head
If that is the case and He asks the Elders of His Church at the time to minister, I expect they will do so, and all Christians will flock to those calling at His direction...whatever it may be.

Will the mormons join with the Christians in the move to HIS church? It will mean giving up their false beliefs.

What a joy and relief it will be to them to find that all the laws, covenants, and rituals have been unnecessary and His Grace will be there for true believers.

149 posted on 04/27/2012 1:25:40 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: Jeff Head
AMEN. That is evidence enough of a profession of faith in Jesus Christ the same Jesus Christ Protestant and Catholic worship and call upon.

I'll be so glad when this election is over and the political Witch Hunt to destroy a man through his religious beliefs rather than his liberal record is OVER! These Mormon bashing threads are way over the top.

Signed,
A Baptist raised Christian

150 posted on 04/27/2012 2:11:54 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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