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Essays for Lent/Easter: Jehovah's Witnesses
StayCatholic.com ^ | 04-26-12 | Sebastian R. Fama

Posted on 04/26/2012 9:19:07 PM PDT by Salvation

 

Jehovah's Witnesses

by Sebastian R. Fama

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be "God's Visible Organization." They also claim to be "His prophet." They say that Jesus inspected their organization in 1919 and found a "faithful and discreet slave class, dispensing fine spiritual food to true believers" (Yearbook 1975, page 88). So what type of spiritual food have they been dispensing? In "The Finished Mystery" published in 1917, they claimed that in 1918 God would destroy the churches and church members by the millions, and Christendom would go down into oblivion that year. They also predicted that there would be worldwide anarchy in the fall of 1920. In 1920 they claimed that the Bible foretold the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and other faithful ones of old. It was written that they would arrive in 1925 (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 81). They have predicted that the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, and 1975. Obviously none of their predictions have come true. Are we to believe that this is "fine spiritual food?"

They don't vote in elections, and they won't salute the flag or serve in the armed forces. They teach that it is wrong to celebrate birthdays, Christmas and Easter. They believe that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same.

Ricarda Bradford was seriously injured in an automobile accident. She was in desperate need of a blood transfusion. Her father, a devout Jehovah's Witness, refused to allow it, as Witnesses believe that the Bible prohibits blood transfusions. As a result, Ricarda died on her sixth birthday. Many of their teachings, such as this one, are arrived at by taking Bible verses out of context. When they are shown Bible verses that contradict their theology, their responses generally imply that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false one. But even their version of the Bible disagrees. In Genesis 1:26 God says, "Let us make man in our image." In the next verse we read that "God proceeded to make man in His image." So God alone created man, and yet more than one person was involved. This is the doctrine of the Trinity. It is true that in some places the Scriptures speak of Jesus as being subordinate to the Father, but this is perfectly natural and necessary to the Christian view. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. In His human nature He is subject to the Father. In His divine nature He is equal to the Father.

Jesus' divinity is illustrated in John 2:18-21, where we read, "Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to Him, 'What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?' In answer Jesus said to them, 'Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Therefore the Jews said, 'This temple was built in forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?' But He was talking about the temple of His body." Acts 5:30 tells us that "The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus." So the Bible tells us that Jesus raised His own dead body. It also tells us that the one who raised Him was God. Therefore Jesus is God.

Isaiah 9:6 predicts the birth of Jesus. Note what it calls Him: "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that the Holy Spirit is not a person but God's active force. He is likened to "electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations." But this is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible not only tells us that the Holy Spirit is a person, but a divine one as well. In Acts 13:2 we read, "As they were ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.'" And again, "The Holy Spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet" (Acts 28:25). If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, how is it that it can speak and refer to itself in a personal way?

The divinity of the Holy Spirit is revealed in Acts 5:3-4: "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the Holy Spirit…You have played false not to men, but to God.'"

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the doctrine of the Trinity derives no support from any Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ (Should You Believe in the Trinity, page 7). Among the early writers mentioned are Tertullian, Origen and Theophilus of Antioch. However, Tertullian wrote, "And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, the Son, and the Spirit" (Against Praxeas 2:1, 213 AD).

Origen wrote, "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He [the Son] did not exist…For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (On First Principles 4:4:1, 220 AD).

Finally, Theophilus of Antioch: "The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, His Word, and His Wisdom" (Ad Autolycus 2:15, 181 AD).

Jehovah's Witness theology concerning hell is also problematic. They teach that the Biblical terms used to describe hell are merely symbolic; that after death the damned will no longer exist. The idea of eternal torment is flatly rejected. But the Scriptures teach otherwise. In Matthew 25:41 we read, "Then He will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.'" Notice how the everlasting fire is a place that was prepared. If it were not an actual place, no preparation would be needed. Further evidence is found in Revelation 21:8: "But as for the cowards and those without faith, and those who are disgusting in their filth, and murderers and fornicators, and those practicing Spiritism and idolaters, and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death." There could only be a second death if those in question were still in existence after the first one.

Hell-fire cannot be symbolic of non-existence, as it would defeat the purpose of symbolism. The purpose of symbolism is to teach by way of illustration. Whenever symbolic language is used, there is always a parallel principle involved. For instance, if I said that I had an ocean of water in my basement, would you think that it was flooded or bone dry? Most people would think that it was flooded. An ocean is a large body of water, so it would symbolize an excessive amount of water. It would never be used to describe an absence of water. Similarly, hell-fire would never be used to describe non-existence. There are no two concepts more radically opposed. Non-existence is a total absence of reality, while fiery torture is the most vivid form of reality. How could one symbolize the other?

Consider what Jesus said about Judas in Matthew 26:24: "Woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him to have never been born." Why would it have been finer for him to have never been born? If he were never born he would be non-existent. If he died unrepentant and went to a symbolic hell he would be equally non-existent. If such were the case, Jesus' statement would be foolish. It would only make sense if Judas went to a hell of eternal punishment.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. But the Bible disagrees. Luke 24:38-39 records the following: "So He [Jesus] said to them, 'A spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.'" In response, Witnesses tell us that Jesus materialized bodies as the angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Once again we appeal to John 2:18-21 where Jesus says that He will raise His then present body.

As we have seen, the Jehovah's Witnesses have a history of false claims and faulty theology. This hardly qualifies them to be "God's visible organization," let alone "His Prophet."

Copyright © 2001 StayCatholic.com 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; jw

For Further Study

The Early Church Fathers on The Divinity of Christ  (Free)  The Early Church Fathers on Hell  (Free) The Early Church Fathers on the Trinity (Free) Jehovah's Witnesses and the Early Church Fathers (Free) 
Books -
Answering Jehovah's Witnesses by Jason Everett and Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered Verse by Verse  by David A. Reed (not a Catholic Publication but for the most part it is excellent)
DVD - Witnesses of Jehovah and Hell


1 posted on 04/26/2012 9:19:12 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Any thoughts?

Ping!


2 posted on 04/26/2012 9:22:54 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Essays for Lent/Easter: Jehovah's Witnesses
Essays for Lent/Easter: The Word of Faith Movement
Essays for Lent/Easter: Salvation Outside the Church?
Essays for Lent/Easter: The Words of Consecration
Essays for Lent/Easter: Traditionalists [Catholic Caucus]
Essays for Lent/Easter: Women's Ordination
Essays for Lent/Easter: Abortion
Essays for Lent/Easter: Annulment

Essays for Lent/Easter: Divorce and Remarriage
Essays for Lent: Marriage
Essays for Lent: Natural Family Planning
Essays for Lent: Contraception
Essays for Lent: Abstinence
Essays for Lent: The Rapture
Essays for Lent: Call No Man Father
Essays for Lent: Scapulars Medals and Relics
Essays for Lent: Statues and Holy Pictures
Essays for Lent: The Rosary

Essays for Lent: The Assumption
Essays for Lent: The Immaculate Conception
Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
Essays for Lent: Praying to Saints
Essays for Lent: Indulgences
Essays for Lent: Purgatory
Essays for Lent: Confession
Essays for Lent: The Eucharist
Essays for Lent: The Mass
Essays for Lent: Baptism

Essays for Lent: Justification
Essays for Lent: Tradition
Essays for Lent: Scripture Alone
Essays for Lent: The Canon of Scripture
Essays for Lent: Papal Infallibility
Essays for Lent: The Pope
Essays for Lent: The Church
Essays for Lent: The Bible
Essays for Lent: The Trinity
Essays for Lent: Creationism or Evolution?

3 posted on 04/26/2012 9:36:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

My thoughts are that JW’s many end-of-world predictions alone disqualify them for serious consideration of being true.

And, I believe, their history reflects this: their number of adherents has fallen off with each prediction becoming false.

But... we do need to be aware of this group and their teaching in order to properly refute and evangelize.

thanks for the post.


4 posted on 04/26/2012 9:52:01 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

My biggest confrontation with them was when one of the children tried to save one of my kids and give them a JW book. I wrote in the book — showed it to the teacher at that time and returned the book, defaced.

They weren’t too happy with me.


5 posted on 04/26/2012 10:00:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Photobucket

I read Three Books On Padre Pio. He did not like Jehovah Witnesses. I do not mean hate but disliked.

After World War Two the Jehovah Witnesses came to Italy. He did not mind meeting Protestants. He meet his first protestants during the war and after from American soldiers who would visit. He was asked why he did not convert the Protestants. He declared "If God wants them Catholic he will do it."

I really believe he would do this because he could see into the spiritual realm. Traditional Protestants believe in 1John 4. So he could see the Holy Spirit in a person. Jehovah Witnesses do not believe Christ came in the flesh as Divinity like it declares in the bible. This is very important as St. John declares in his epistle.

Padre Pio "flipped his wig" when he heard the were going door to door in his home town. He appeared in his home town.

6 posted on 04/26/2012 10:01:05 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Thanks for this little bit of Padre Pio history. I know you are a big fan of his. Me too.


7 posted on 04/26/2012 10:05:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All; Salvation
Photobucket

Did you notice this in the article.

He is talking about the Holy Spirit. Now I know the concept of the human mind can have us declare "it." I have made this mistake and asked forgiveness. The Holy Spirit is a He. But the author is writing about a person of the triune God in the same sentence.

"If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, how is it that it can speak and refer to itself in a personal way?"

That is strange. Did the author proofread his own work? He declares it is personal but writes "it"or "itself." Strange. Especially when it is about how the Jevohah's Witnesses do not believe as a person. He must of met a deadline. Strange.

8 posted on 04/26/2012 10:24:14 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation

always tell them when they come to my door, sorry DONT believe your brand.. good by and close the door. much better the my old man he told them we didnt believe in god and slamed the door in their faces.. then laugh his ass off


9 posted on 04/26/2012 10:31:11 PM PDT by markman46 (engage brain before using keyboard!!!)
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To: johngrace
"He declares it is personal but writes "it"or "itself."

Wow! I did the same! God forgive me!!

This Should be The Holy Spirit or He.

"He declares it is personal but writes "it"or "itself."

Should be.

"He declares The Holy Spirit is personal but writes "it" or "itself.

Forgive me LORD!

I am no better.

We know not what we do.

10 posted on 04/26/2012 10:34:00 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: markman46; Salvation
When my mother was alive I gave them Catholic or Protestant tracts against this religion. Well for weeks my mom said a man kept coming around for weeks looking for me.

Well it was the big muckety muck of their club. He was furious. I must of caused a rift. I remember some what it read. it showed who started it. The first person with also the phony predictions.

Right on my front lawn I had a debate. We went through the bible. He got into stereotypes. So the last point was the Trinity.

He declared not in bible. I looked at him nonplussed got my pocket( I think) bible showed him the baptism of Christ. The Father was speaking, Son in water And Holy Spirit as a dove. So there I declared. He left befuddled. My mother prayed for him. And you know what I believe he found Christ if my mother prayed. She was a walking miracle praying worker. Dozen of know miracles and also I believe unknown thousands prayed into heaven.

I believe like that nun who prayed for the atheist who almost went to hell. Howard Storm.

Praise God for little old ladies who pray!!

LOL!

Praise Jesus!!

11 posted on 04/26/2012 10:53:00 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation
Whenever I see a Watchtower tract or Watchtower Bible Society booklet, I discretely toss it in the trash. We have a few that come door-to-door in our neighborhood and they cornered my husband in the yard one day. He stopped them after they talked to him for a few minutes and said, “What you are talking about doesn't have the ring of truth to me. My wife graduated from a Bible college, why don't you come back sometime and talk to her.”. They NEVER came back! I think, like the Mormons, they count on most people not really understanding the truths of Christianity. We all need to not only know what we believe but why we believe it, too.
12 posted on 04/26/2012 11:04:34 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: johngrace

Praise God for little old ladies who pray!!

that is because they are closer to god and their prayers are heard. when I was a kid the JW was very big in the Los Angeles area esp the San Fernando Valley. lots of doors getting slamed

13 posted on 04/26/2012 11:24:29 PM PDT by markman46 (engage brain before using keyboard!!!)
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To: Salvation

for later


14 posted on 04/26/2012 11:47:42 PM PDT by JDoutrider (Impeach! Incarcerate! Deport!)
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To: Salvation

Our Priests need to give more warnings when the Jehovah Witnesses are in the neighborhood. I can only recall one warning by a Priest during a Mass. It was years ago & I forgot exactly what the Priest said.
____________________________________________

My opinion:
The Jehovah Witnesses ring the doorbell = Their objective is to >spiritually KILL you for all ETERNITY. It’s like lunatic criminals with large knives waiting to stab you in the heart.

Then the Jehovah Witnesses want to drag you out of your home = The Catholic Church, to ensure you stay DEAD for all ETERNITY.

Then the Jehovah Witnesses want you to KILL other people. They help you kill your >children, family, friends & anyone else you may meet. The DEATH >can be for all ETERNITY.

If the Jehovah Witnesses can’t KILL you on the first attempt they hand you POISON in the form of pamphlets (The true works of Satan). They want the poison in your house so it can KILL someone for all ETERNITY.

If you give any encouragement to Jehovah Witnesses, they’ll keep coming back to your house hoping to KILL everyone in the home for all ETERNITY.

______ ++++++++++++

My advice: Don’t answer the door. Don’t take a pamphlet from a Jehovah Witness. (Don’t take a Chick tract from anyone else either)

The Jehovah Witnesses are NOT at your house to >listen to you. They want to KILL you for all ETERNITY. The Jehovah Witnesses are trained to deal death to people.

_____ ++++++++++++

If someone wants to ‘reach out’ to the Jehovah Witnesses, they should get special training. Jesus Christ: “and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over unclean spirits.” Jesus made sure his disciples went in >twos for spiritual strength.

Adam&Eve were in Garden of Eden with God. Adam&Eve were created without >concupiscence. YET, Satan was able to deceive Adam&Eve. (Satan worked his lies on Eve when she was by herself.)

Be careful around the works of Satan.

Pope John Paul II called the family: “God’s smallest church.”
My opinion: I do NOT think anyone should open the door to Satan & give access to Jehovah Witnesses in their attempt to KILL everyone in your family for all ETERNITY.

If God puts a burden on your heart, to witness to Jehovah Witnesses, then: Only witness to Jehovah Witnesses when there are >two of you & you are both wearing your armor. +You initiate the contact or else plan the contact when they are in the neighborhood. Be careful!


15 posted on 04/26/2012 11:54:51 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: boatbums; count-your-change

cyc — your thoughts?


16 posted on 04/27/2012 12:00:49 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Salvation
Catholics have nothing to fear from JW's or Mormons. Get yourself some of the Catholic answers tracts and a read a bit.

When they come around invite them in. If you feel like letting them get some of their spiel going then let them and look for an opening.

Years ago I got a copy of some of the Mormon books and some of the JW tracts that had some of the doctrines that changed. I keep them by the door.

When I see an opening I ask them "Hey what about....." and show them their own book or tract.

I am not mean or confrontational.

I do this for three reasons:

1) I just might open their eyes, you never know what will touch their heart.

2) It takes their time and money and keeps them occupied so that they won't have a shot at converting a neighbor that is not as strong or as knowledgeable in their faith.

3) It is fun to do after a while.

Also as True Christians are we really called on to slam doors in their faces and be mean to others?

17 posted on 04/27/2012 2:02:56 AM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Cronos
This fellow says he is a teacher or instructor of others yet he seems to need instruction since his lack of understanding of the Scriptures begins at his attempted explanation of Genesis 1:26 and continues at length.

He writes (in part):
“In Genesis 1:26 God says, “Let us make man in our image.” In the next verse we read that “God proceeded to make man in His image.” So God alone created man, and yet more than one person was involved. This is the doctrine of the Trinity”

“Elohim” is the Hebrew word translated as “God” in Genesis 1:26.

However even as the Catholic Encyclopedia explains under the heading “Elohim”:

“Elohim is the common name for God. It is a plural form, but “The usage of the language gives no support to the supposition that we have in the plural form Elohim, applied to the God of Israel, the remains of an early polytheism, or at least a combination with the higher spiritual beings” (Kautzsch). Grammarians call it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h).”

Note that the plurality of Elohim is of “majesty or rank” and has nothing to do with another person being present according to the Catholic Encyclopedia and other reference works.

My thoughts? I call these Ego-blogs since that seems to be the only purpose they serve..boosting the ego of the blogger.

18 posted on 04/27/2012 2:29:44 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Salvation

DR WALTER MARTIN

and his

“KINGDOM OF THE CULTS”

is excellent on the JW organization.

He notes after many years of research that the founding leaders brazenly created the organization with 2 main goals:

1. to make a lot of money.
2. to !CONTROL! the lives of others tyrannically.

Walter shredded their theology and their history up one side and down the other.

He believed that all the upper ranks of the leaders knew why the organization was established though the lower ranks did not.


19 posted on 04/27/2012 2:56:13 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: verga

I have had JW’s approach our door, and once engaged a pair of them in discussion, after which none have returned to our door. But I did so in a civil manner. I try to remind myself that true charity in part revolves around sharing truth with one who has been hornswoggled, rather than allowing them to continue to be misled. Not in any sort of abusive way, of course. Perhaps one of the better ways to begin is to point out the various ways in which the JW “truths” have changed over the years, and ask the person at your door why that might have changed, and what they think about what used to be said, versus what is currently said.

The Institute of Catholic Culture had a great lecture series on this. Here’s a link to an mp3 of the lecture which focused on the JW’s: http://instituteofcatholicculture.org/media/Kingdom_of_Cults_Carnazzos_1_Jehovahs_Witnesses.mp3


20 posted on 04/27/2012 3:27:43 AM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: verga

Jesus calls and commands ALL, be they alone or in a family to witness to all for the good news of the GOSPEL.


21 posted on 04/27/2012 3:31:18 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: johngrace

Great story about your mother.


22 posted on 04/27/2012 8:13:06 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: boatbums

I’ve told both the JWs and the Mormons, sure I’ll listent to you (and I don’t move from the front step) and then I will be glad to invite you in and answer all your questions about Catholicism over a cup of coffee/tea/water — depended on the weather.

They always refused and then stopped coming by.


23 posted on 04/27/2012 8:16:05 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
As we have seen, the Jehovah's Witnesses have a history of false claims and faulty theology

This is rich...A religion which claims that the mother of Jesus is the Queen of  Heaven... That the mother provides salvation and grace and that all prayers must go thru the mother...And then criticize another religion that doesn't believe that there are 4 members of the household of God in heaven, but just one...

Yep, that's rich...

24 posted on 04/27/2012 1:01:44 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Quix

I read that book I think twice at around the time one of them came to the door. I think Walter Martin gave me the confidence to debate that person at the time. I like that Walter Martin book. Great book!


25 posted on 04/28/2012 1:23:18 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

INDEED.

THX THX.


26 posted on 04/28/2012 4:21:27 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Iscool; Quix
I'm surprised nobody has called you on this.

That the mother provides salvation and grace and that all prayers must go thru the mother

(1) Nothing in the Catechism says that "all prayers must go through Mary". Where are you getting this from? It's not Catholic dogma. Read through the prayers of the Mass (sadly not available on the net for copyright reasons) sometime ... Mary is barely mentioned. The consecration of the Eucharist ends with the priest elevating the sacrament above the altar and singing, "Through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor are yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever". Sounds like a Trinitarian prayer to me.

(2) If Mary "provides salvation and grace," she does so through her Son.

And then criticize another religion that doesn't believe that there are 4 members of the household of God in heaven, but just one.

There are millions or billions of "members of the household of God" in heaven, not one. That's what heaven is. But perhaps you don't actually believe in the Scriptural understanding of heaven.

Yep, that's rich.

What's "rich" is that you two take the side of an anti-Christian cult, which teaches that you two are part of the whore of Babylon, that Jesus is the incarnation of the archangel Michael, and that only 144,000 members of the generation alive in 1914 get to go to heaven ... over and against the Catholic Church, which unhesitatingly preaches the Triune God of the Scriptures and hopes to see both of you in heaven.

That's rich.

27 posted on 04/29/2012 5:45:38 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion
I'd rather not get into this again. However, the issue is SOOOO Biblically and spiritually crucial, I must state again:

As the Ferraro devotional documents, MANY RC leaders and organizational 'stars' have attested to such a blasphemous outrage as truth--with the organization's ALMOST total blessing.

Certainly without the RCC or its Magisterical censoring such assertions.

But WITH a LOT of repeated pontificating and glorifying of such assertions . . . for decades and often centuries for such ilk.

The appeal to the Catechism as the definer of RCC truth is wholesale farcical.

1. The Catechism is a mess and covers all sides of a long list of issues--providing so much wiggle room for believing at least a couple sides of many big issues as to be grossly and embarrassingly absurd. It boggles my mind that thinking bright folks would appeal to that tome as a justification for any purportedly solid, rational belief.

2. REGARDLESS of what the Catechism says, THE PONTIFICATIONS AND PRACTICES from the Pope and the Vatican itself down to the local parish are flagrantly, routinely and relentlessly of the ilk that Mary is part of the God-head and at least Jr manager of all things spiritual and Salvific. What blasphemy.

Oh, I know about the proffered test cases of this or that group of Nuns that got censored or even excommunicated for some brazen Maryolitry. Stack that up against many 100's of THOUSANDS of examples on the opposite side of the ledger and it's laughable.

In short, the chronic practices of a huge chunk of the organization's faithful AND THEIR LEADERS mirror the worst of the classical pontifications in Ferraro's book.

And, as with everyone, Y'ALL'S ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN YOUR WORDS, TOO.

The nonsense about Ferraro's book being hyperbole doesn't wash either. WORDS MATTER. The UNMODIFIED original 10 COMMANDMENTS MATTER.

Exodus 20:1-17

And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

1.You shall have no other gods before me.

2.You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5.Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6.You shall not murder.

7.You shall not commit adultery.

8.You shall not steal.

9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10.You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

.

God didn't leave wiggle room in HIS #1 & 2. The RCC's Magisterical revisionist version NEVER received Heaven's approval in the least. .
.
.

Here's the title:

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Meditations-Mysteries-Rosary-Ferraro/dp/0819801577/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272938246&sr=1-2

And it carries the official sanctions of:

ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.

WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR

Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .

Here they are:

However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.

p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence

p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18

p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."

28 posted on 04/29/2012 6:24:10 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Quix, you do seem to shout quite a bit in your written comments.

There are Catholic sites on the web that will explain The Blessed Mother to you if you wish to look at them.

I don’t know who you be? Are you a Jehovah Witness or just someone that ‘Shouts’ about the Mother of Jesus (our Mother too)?

There seem to be some catholics ‘chomping at the bit’ to witness to Jehovah Witnesses but they let you get the last word in. What’s up with that?

I’m Irish & willing to talk to folks for a bit. Why you be ranting so about the Virgin-Mary (Mother of Jesus) and all of us Roman Catholics & the Roman Catholic Church?

Are you a Christian? or a Jehovah Witness?

This meant with true >kindness. Please look at how your comment is presented on a Catholic thread. It doesn’t look very friendly at all!

How about Bible verses as a closing prayer. Colossians 3: 8-17, “But now you must put them all away: >anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.
Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do.
And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”

My advice Quix, learn to pray the Mysteries of the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary; pray it daily> “then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.”


29 posted on 05/02/2012 11:44:58 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

NOPE.

The outrageous blasphemies and idolatries in Ferraro’s devotional are worth a lot more than CAPS and colors in protest.

The biggest fuss possible over such UnBiblical hideousness is still an inadequate protest, yet the most loving response possible.

Ex 20:3

New International Version (©1984)
“You shall have no other gods before me.

New Living Translation (©2007)
“You must not have any other god but me.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“You shall have no other gods before me.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall have no other gods before Me.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Ex 20:4

New International Version (©1984)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

New Living Translation (©2007)
“You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Ex23:5

New International Version (©1984)
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

New Living Translation (©2007)
You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.

English Standard Version (©2001)
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

20:6

New International Version (©1984)
but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

English Standard Version (©2001)
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But I show mercy to thousands of generations of those who love me and obey my commandments.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

In view of the above Scriptures, any molly coddling of the outrages in Ferraro’s book would be unloving.

Of course, I’m NOT a JW. I believe the authentic Bible cover to cover.


30 posted on 05/03/2012 5:10:36 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: gghd

BTW, The idea that RC’s don’t teach that prayers must go through Mary needed a fitting response.


31 posted on 05/03/2012 5:12:44 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that a person >can pray >directly to Jesus.

Does your church have what is called a >prayer chain?

That’s where people pray for each other or they all pray to God for something they want. Sometimes they will meet and all pray together. &Sometimes they contact each other through the >telephone. It’s called a ‘prayer-chain’ because when one person is contacted, that person is responsible for contacting other people.

For instance, I can ask you to pray for me. That’s perfectly acceptable in the Catholic Church & in a lot of other Protestant churches. (By-the-way, please pray for me.)

The Catholic Church teaches there is only >One Church. All the Souls (Saints) in Heaven & all the people living on earth who are in a state of >grace are all in the Church of Jesus Christ.

When Catholics ‘pray’ to Mary, they just including her in the prayer-chain. If Mary had a telephone, ALL Catholics would be calling her up constantly. But, ‘There ain’t no phone lines up to Heaven’ except through >prayer. That’s how we ALL talk to everyone in Heaven including the Upper Management of the Catholic Church (Father, Son & Holy Spirit).

It’s in the Bible that we ALL become “Brothers & Sisters” with one another & brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. It’s part of God’s Mercy.

The Virgin-Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. He is both True-man & True-God. Obviously, Mary did NOT “create” Jesus=eternal=God. But, she did give birth to Jesus in the form of His >humanity.

Elizabeth: “filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, ‘Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my >Lord should come to me?”

In the 10 commandments we are obligated to honor God. We are obligated to honor our earthly father & mother.

Catholics >rightly teach that as we become >brothers with Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary becomes our mother too through the action of the Holy Spirit infusing us with God’s grace.

A lot of people outside the Catholic Church look upon >Roman Catholics as >worshipping The Virgin-Mary. That’s incorrect; Catholics are just honoring her for being our mother too through Jesus Christ.
+Mary is due honor from ALL Christians for saying YES to God. “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”

I’ll admit that, at times the ‘flowery’ language of the praises for Mary may seem a bit too much to >non-Catholics. But, ALL Roman Catholics >start with the basic teaching of the Catholic Church: Mary is a creature like us.
She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus. (That’s a real good recommendation as to her Virtue.)

To say Mary is in a, >Mysterious way, is the mediator of ALL graces is correct. The Virgin Mary said, “Yes” to God. Jesus was conceived in her womb & his ‘whole’ human life was entrusted to >Mary. She raised Jesus from conception to when He reached the age where He could care from himself. (By-the-way, Quix, please say >Thank-you to your mother. Do it today either by telephone or prayer.)

Mary is a >creature like all of us. But without Mary as The Blessed Mother, Jesus as we know him today would NOT exist. Maybe, God would have found someone else to be His mother; But that is simply conjecture (like how many angels can dance on a pin.).
We know for certain, Jesus Christ decided the Virgin-Mary was going to be his mother. It’s in the human-heart, ‘Perfect Mother = Perfect Child.’ God is perfect. >But part of the mystery of the incarnation is God also wanted a >Perfect Mother.

Jesus Christ is the >True Mediator of ALL graces. But, he acted through Mary to have a human-body here on Earth.
Repeat: Jesus Christ is the >True Mediator of ALL graces; He acted through His mother as part of His salvation plan: The incarnation, life, ministry on earth & death on the Cross.
Repeat: Jesus Christ according to the Catholic Church is the True Mediator of ALL graces. ALL of creation came about through the Word of God = Jesus Christ. (Jesus = Humanity needed Mary to say YES.)

A prayer for ALL of humanity = Thank you Mary for saying, “Yes to God.”

Everyone has a vocation. Are you, Quix, upset with Televangelists when they take telephone calls from people in the audience & then send the messages up to Heaven to Jesus. They in a mysterious way also are ‘mediators’ between the faithful & Jesus.

I’m a Roman Catholic & I go to Church as required. +I pray daily.

What is your Religion? Do you go to Church? If it’s a small Church that gives away your location, obviously, you don’t have tell it.

The reason I ask: I found that on freerepublic, I can end up discussing Christianity with someone that sits at home on Sunday in their own armchair church. They seem to interpret the Bible as to whatever suits their fancy that day?

Roman Catholics teach >everyone in the entire world is given sufficient grace & opportunity to get into Heaven. In Mathew 25: 39-46, God sets out who will get into Heaven in the ordinary course of events. Please notice that God is looking for acts of Mercy.

The good-thief on the Cross also teaches ALL of us, that when a person is at >death’s door, a >direct appeal to God can get a person into Heaven. The Catholic Church recognizes this possibility.

The summary is: “Please be polite about the Virgin-Mary as she is >our Mother too!” +On Judgment Day, we will stand before Jesus Christ. = Jesus doesn’t want anyone ‘talkin’ trash’ about any mother, much less HIS Mother!

I try to pray these direct prayers to God everyday:

“Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen”

“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world with end. Amen”

“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen”


32 posted on 05/03/2012 8:16:01 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: Quix

I wanted this to be a stand alone comment about Mary. It’s not from a Catholic Catechism; it’s from me.

Some people get upset that Roman Catholics view Mary as having >special attributes & >special abilities to work on behalf of her Son = Jesus Christ.

Mary, herself, was given the vocation from GOD to take care of Jesus Christ. He was conceived in her womb & nursed at her breast. The human-body of Jesus Christ was depended on Mary for Life itself.

Then Mary taught Jesus how to be >truly-human which is the vocation all mothers have in regards to their children. Mary played ‘peek-a-boo’ with her Baby. She taught Him ‘Patty-cake baker’s man, roll it up & put it in the pan...’

Mary taught Jesus how walk & talk. She taught Him >manners. What a blessing = Perfect mother & perfect Child.
Walk into a Church for the >first time and have ‘mom’ say, ‘Indoor feet.’ >The Perfect Child NEVER ran in a Church, ever! (As a Man, He may have ran-after ‘money-changers with a whip!’)

It’s perfectly reasonable that Jesus would still give “>tasks” to Mary to HELP take care of >ALL of us. After all, Jesus gave Mary the vocation of taking care of Him. To the Mother’s Heart, it’s not a ‘job or task’ but an act of motherly love. = Mary as the Mother of Jesus is our Mother too! Mary as our >Mother wants to take care of ALL of us too!

In summary, = Tell your mother Thank You. +Ask her how many times she had to tell you: “indoor feet.”


33 posted on 05/03/2012 8:53:27 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: Quix

This is a reply in regards to comment about ‘worshipping Idols’ as you repeated that particular commandment so many times.

The key is >Worship. Roman Catholics do NOT worship any idol or any of the ‘art’ work in a Catholic Church. You might be confusing a work of >art with what the Bible prohibits as to >Idol worship. The Catholic Church places objects in the Churches to depict some of the >friends&family of God. Just as many Protestants have items that depict their family&friends.

God instructed that the ‘Ark of the Covenant’ have >golden Cherubim (Angels=Heaven) above the Ark with their wings over the Mercy-Seat. This should clue everyone that the concern God has in the commandments is >worshipping idols & not works of art.

It’s possible to hear Protestant-ministers tell the faithful to ‘rest in Jesus as we rest from our works.’ The same ministers often tell the faithful to kneel down by their bedsides at night & pray to Jesus.

Do you think ALL those Protestants kneeling beside their beds are really Idol-worshipers that think their >beds are really God=Jesus because their ministers tell them: ‘They rest in Jesus?’ (It’s a serious question as you say things about Roman Catholics that can also be said about Protestants.)

I watch the Billy-Graham crusades on television. I like the altar call (even though Protestants do NOT have an altar in their churches).

Many times I have listened to Reverend Billy Graham tell how he decided to turn his entire life over to Jesus Christ. It goes something like this:
As a young man, Billy Graham attended a ‘tent-revival church service.’ He came home to his parents house. He went upstairs. In the darkness of his bedroom, Billy Graham knelt by his >bed, looked out the window to a group of >trees across the field, then looked up at the >moon in the night-sky. Billy Graham then prayed to God & turned his entire life over to Jesus Christ.

If you are curious, Roman Catholics do NOT teach: Billy Graham thought his >bed, the >trees or the >moon be god. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes that all people have ‘human dignity’ & should not be lied about or mocked.

Please watch World Youth Day in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, July 23-28, 2013<. There will be a large communion service where people answer the call from Jesus Christ. It’s similar to a ‘Protestant altar call’ except the Roman Catholic Church also has a real >altar.


34 posted on 05/03/2012 10:33:45 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

NOPE.

Y’all’s words are thoroughly unconvincing.

I’ll take the Word of God over y’all’s words all the time. 24/7/365

Ya’ll’s millions of actions around the world and at the Vatican speak, scream far louder than the thousands of pages of words.


35 posted on 05/06/2012 6:39:26 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

Quix, they aren’t my words. They are the >Word of God. Please read the Bible. You’ll notice Jesus Christ did NOT walk the Holy-land handing out Bibles.

Jesus Christ built a Church. History = The Roman Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ.

There is only one Church. May God bless you then Quix. Hopefully, we’ll meet in Heaven.


36 posted on 05/06/2012 7:34:30 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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