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Parents: Donít Delay Baptism for your Infants!
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | April 22, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 04/27/2012 6:36:28 PM PDT by Salvation

BAPTISM

There is a trend that has set up for years now, and that is that Catholics are waiting many months to get their children baptized. I suspect that what we have here is a combination of a much lower infant mortality rate and, also, a less fervent practice of the faith by many. Further, there seems little sense among the faithful today that an unbaptized infant would be excluded from heaven.

As regards the last point, I think it is pastorally sound to trust in God’s mercy for infants who die before baptism. However, I do not think it follows that we ought to disregard or substantially delay a sacrament which Jesus commands, and which the Church indicates ought not to be delayed. The Code of Canon Law says the following:

Parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks. As soon as possible after the birth, indeed even before it, they are to approach the parish priest to ask for the sacrament for their child, and to be themselves duly prepared for it. If the infant is in danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay. Can. 867 §1,§2

The Catechism also states: The Church and parents deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer baptism shortly after birth. (CCC # 1250) So it seems clear that a higher priority should be given to scheduling the baptism of babies within the first few weeks after birth.

Protestant practice departs from the received Tradition – Another factor for American Catholics is that many are influenced by the Protestants. Protestants, (though not all of them) disagree with our Catholic practice of baptizing infants. They usually wait until a child is between 8 and 12 to baptize,  reasoning that the child will know and understand what is happening and be able to claim Christ for themselves.

But, I hope you see the supreme irony of this in the fact that the Protestants, who so emphasize that salvation does not come from works, delay baptism on the grounds that the infant has not achieved (i.e. worked up to) the proper level of maturity. To know, requires one to learn, which is a work. And we Catholics, who supposedly teach salvation through works (we do not), baptize infants who can work no work.

Novelty – Indeed, the Protestant denominations (mostly Baptists (another irony), Pentecostals, Fundamentalist and Evangelicals) who refuse baptism to infants, engage in a novelty unknown to the Church until recent times.

It is a simple historical fact that the Church has always baptized infants. Even our earliest documents speak of the practice. For example the Apostolic Tradition written about 215 A.D. has this to say:

The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. (Apostolic Tradition # 21)

Scripture too confirms that infants should be baptized if you do the math. For example

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. (Luke 18:15-17 NIV)

So the Kingdom of God belongs to the little children (in Greek βρέφη (brephe) indicating infants and little children still held in the arms, babes).

And yet elsewhere Jesus also reminds that it is necessary to be baptized in order to enter the Kingdom of God: Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5 NIV)

If the Kingdom of God belongs to little children, and we are taught that we cannot inherit it without baptism, then it follows that baptizing infants is necessary, and that to fail to do so, is a hindering of the little children which Jesus forbade his apostles to do. So both Tradition and Scripture affirm the practice of baptizing infants.

Many of the Protestants who do refuse infant baptism also water down (pardon the pun!) the fuller meaning of baptism, no longer seeing it as washing away sins and conferring righteousness per se, but more as a symbol of faith that they claim to have already received when they said the “sinners prayer” and accepted Christ as their savior. But what a tragic loss for them, since baptism and particularly the baptism of infants, says some very wonderful things about the complete gratuity of salvation and the goodness of God. Consider these points:

1. The baptism of infants is a powerful testimony to the absolute gratuity (gift) of salvation. Infants have achieved nothing, have not worked, have not done anything to “merit” salvation. The Catechism puts it this way: The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. (CCC # 1250) The Church is clear, salvation cannot be earned or merited and infant baptism teaches that most clearly. Salvation is pure gift. How strange and ironic that some of the very denominations which claim that Catholics teach salvation by works (we do not) also refuse, themselves, to baptize infants. They claim that a certain age of maturity is required so that the person understands what they are doing. But this sounds like achievement to me. That the child must meet some requirement, seems like a work, or the attainment of some meritorious status wherein one is now old enough to “qualify” for baptism and salvation. “Qualifications….Achievement (of age)….Requirements….it all sounds like what they accuse us of: namely works and merit. To be clear then, the Catholic understanding of the gratuity of salvation is far more radical than many non-Catholics understand. We baptize infants who are not capable of meriting, attaining or earning.

2. The Baptism of infants also powerfully attests to the fact that the beauty of holiness and righteousness is available to everyone regardless of age. To be baptized means to be washed. Washed of what? Original Sin. At first this seems like a downer, “Are you saying my baby has sin?” Yep. All of us inherit Original Sin from Adam and Eve. We are born into a state of alienation from God that is caused by sin. The Scriptures are clear: [S]in entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Rom 5:12). So even infants are in need of the saving touch of God. Now why would we wish to delay this salvation and resulting holiness for 7 to 12 years? The Catechism says this,

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by Original Sin, children also have need of new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and be brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God….The Church and parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer baptism shortly after birth. (CCC # 1250).

St. Cyprian Bishop of Carthage in the 3rd Century was asked if it was OK to wait to the 8th day to baptize since baptism had replaced circumcision. He respond with a strong no:

But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day We [the bishops] all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man. (Epist# 58).

So then here is the beauty, that infants are summoned to receive the precious gift of holiness and righteousness and that they are summoned to a right relationship with God by having their sin purged and holiness infused. Infants are called to this dignity and should not be denied it. With this done, some of the holiest and most innocent days of our lives may well be our first years. Then, as the will begins to manifest, and reason begins to dawn, the grace of holiness gives us extra strength to fight against the sinful world that looms.

3. The Baptism of Infants also attests to the fact that faith is gift for every stage of development- To be baptized is to receive the gift of faith. It is baptism that gives the true faith. Even with adults, true faith does not come until baptism. Prior to that there is a kind of prevenient faith, but it is not the Theological Virtue of Faith.

Now faith is not only an intellectual assent to revealed doctrine. It is that, but it is more. To have faith is also be be in a righteous and trusting relationship with God. An infant relates to his parents long before he speaks or his rational mind is fully formed. He trusts his parents and depends on them. It is the same with God. Thus the infant can well trust and depend on God and be in a right relationship with God, in an age appropriate way.

With his parents, his or her relationship of trust with parents, leads the infant to begin to speak and understand as he or she grows. It is the same with God. As the infant’s mind awakens, the infant’s faith grows. It will continue to grow until the day he or she dies (hopefully) as an old man or woman.

That faith accompanies us through every stage of our life, and develops as we do, is essential to its nature. An infant needs faith no less than an old man. An infant benefits from faith no less than a teenager or an adult. To argue, as some Protestants do, that you have to be a certain age before faith can exist, hardly seems to respect the progressive nature of faith which is able to bless EVERY stage of our human journey.

I have some very vivid memories of my experience of God prior to seven years of age and I will say that God was very powerfully present to me in my early years, in many ways even more so than now, when my mind sometimes “gets in the way.”

Too many Catholics are waiting months, even years to have their children baptized. Precious time is lost by this delay. Infant Baptism speaks powerfully of the love that God has for everyone he has created and of his desire to have everyone in a right and saving relationship with Him. Surely baptism alone isn’t enough. The child must be raised in the faith. It is the nature of faith that it grows by hearing and seeing. Children must have faith given at baptism but that faith must be explained and unwrapped like a precious gift for them.

Don’t delay. Get started early and teach your child the faith they have received every day.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; catholic; msgrcharlespope; sacrament; sacramentofbaptism; sacraments
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Some things for all to consider. Why not have you child baptized as an infant?

What if they should die the next week?

1 posted on 04/27/2012 6:36:35 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Baptism Ping!


2 posted on 04/27/2012 6:39:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Why, they’d go straight to hell. Right?


3 posted on 04/27/2012 7:00:47 PM PDT by tumblindice (Our new, happy lives.)
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To: Salvation; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; pieces of time; ...
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4 posted on 04/27/2012 7:01:07 PM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation

Points to remember: any Christian can baptize a person. In an emergency there is no problem if you have water.


5 posted on 04/27/2012 7:01:59 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

??


6 posted on 04/27/2012 7:04:29 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tumblindice

Limbo. And not the dance.


7 posted on 04/27/2012 7:04:54 PM PDT by T bench ("God wills it." Urban II)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Parents: Don’t Delay Baptism for your Infants!
One Baptism for the Remission of Sins/The Sacrament of Baptism {Ecumenical thread)
Radio Replies Second Volume - The Sacraments [Baptism]
Baptism and Infant Baptism

"Baptism Now Saves You" - Nuts & Bolts - Tim Staples
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Baptism: Initiation and Regeneration
Are Catholics “Born Again?”
Baptizing infants, Pope speaks of 'adventure of being disciples'
Celebrate Your Birthday in the Church
Infant Baptism
Once a Catholic . . . (and part 2) . . . The Chicken's Questions
How Soon Should a Baby be Baptized?
Baptismal Complexes- The Sacrament of Baptism, Part 2
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas BAPTISM
Beginning Catholic: The Sacrament of Baptism: Gateway to New Life [Ecumenical]

Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Baptism [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 20: The Sacrament of Baptism
Baptism and the Usus Antiquior (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Justified by Baptism (fallout from the Beckwith conversion grows)
The Million-Dollar Infant Baptism
Mystical Baptism and Limbo
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
A Critique of a Critique (On Baptism by Immersion)
Catholics, Reformed Christian Churches sign document recognizing common baptism

8 posted on 04/27/2012 7:07:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

What don’t you get? Any Christian can do an emergency baptism.


9 posted on 04/27/2012 7:08:52 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Salvation

Because Baptism doesn’t save a person, no less an infant who doesn’t know what it means to be “born again” (John Ch. 3).

God’s grace rules for those young among us who don’t know any better. -J.S.


10 posted on 04/27/2012 7:09:51 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: tumblindice

Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16 – baptism required for entering heaven


11 posted on 04/27/2012 7:09:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JSDude1

Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…


12 posted on 04/27/2012 7:10:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Secret Agent Man

I am aware of that. Three dashes of water Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your post made it sound as though water were not necessary.


13 posted on 04/27/2012 7:11:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Lutherans face the same challenge nowadays, despite the strong admonitions of the Larger Catechism:

Of Infant Baptism.

47] Here a question occurs by which the devil, through his sects, confuses the world, namely, Of Infant Baptism, whether children also believe, and are justly baptized. Concerning this we say briefly: 48] Let the simple dismiss this question from their minds, and refer it to the learned. But if you wish to answer, 49] then answer thus:-

That the Baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ is sufficiently proved from His own work, namely, that God sanctifies many of them who have been thus baptized, and has given them the Holy Ghost; and that there are yet many even to-day in whom we perceive that they have the Holy Ghost both because of their doctrine and life; as it is also given to us by the grace of God that we can explain the Scriptures and come to the knowledge of Christ, which is impossible without the Holy Ghost. 50] But if God did not accept the baptism of infants, He would not give the Holy Ghost nor any of His gifts to any of them; in short, during this long time unto this day no man upon earth could have been a Christian. Now, since God confirms Baptism by the gifts of His Holy Ghost, as is plainly perceptible in some of the church fathers, as St. Bernard, Gerson, John Hus, and others, who were baptized in infancy, and since the holy Christian Church cannot perish until the end of the world, they must acknowledge that such infant baptism is pleasing to God. For He can never be opposed to Himself, or support falsehood and wickedness, or for its promotion impart His grace and Spirit. 51] This is indeed the best and strongest proof for the simple-minded and unlearned. For they shall not take from us or overthrow this article: I believe a holy Christian Church, the communion of saints.

52] Further, we say that we are not so much concerned to know whether the person baptized believes or not; for on that account Baptism does not become invalid; but everything depends upon the Word and command of God. 53] This now is perhaps somewhat acute, but it rests entirely upon what I have said, that Baptism is nothing else than water and the Word of God in and with each other, that is, when the Word is added to the water, Baptism is valid, even though faith be wanting. For my faith does not make Baptism, but receives it. Now, Baptism does not become invalid even though it be wrongly received or employed; since it is not bound (as stated) to our faith, but to the Word.

54] For even though a Jew should to-day come dishonestly and with evil purpose, and we should baptize him in all good faith, we must say that his baptism is nevertheless genuine. For here is the water together with the Word of God, even though he does not receive it as he should, just as those who unworthily go to the Sacrament receive the true Sacrament, even though they do not believe.

55] Thus you see that the objection of the sectarians is vain. For (as we have said) even though infants did not believe, which, however, is not the case, yet their baptism as now shown would be valid, and no one should rebaptize them; just as nothing is detracted from the Sacrament though some one approach it with evil purpose, and he could not be allowed on account of his abuse to take it a second time the selfsame hour, as though he had not received the true Sacrament at first; for that would mean to blaspheme and profane the Sacrament in the worst manner. How dare we think that God’s Word and ordinance should be wrong and invalid because we make a wrong use of it?

56] Therefore I say, if you did not believe then believe now and say thus: The baptism indeed was right, but I, alas! did not receive it aright. For I myself also, and all who are baptized, must speak thus before God: I come hither in my faith and in that of others, yet I cannot rest in this, that I believe, and that many people pray for me; but in this I rest, that it is Thy Word and command. Just as I go to the Sacrament trusting not in my faith, but in the Word of Christ; whether I am strong or weak, that I commit to God. But this I know, that He bids me go, eat and drink, etc., and gives me His body and blood; that will not deceive me or prove false to me.

57] Thus we do also in infant baptism. We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith; but we do not baptize it upon that, but solely upon the command of God. Why so? Because we know that God does not lie. I and my neighbor and, in short, all men, may err and deceive, but the Word of God cannot err.

58] Therefore they are presumptuous, clumsy minds that draw such inferences and conclusions as these: Where there is not the true faith, there also can be no true Baptism. Just as if I would infer: If I do not believe, then Christ is nothing; or thus: If I am not obedient, then father, mother, and government are nothing. Is that a correct conclusion, that whenever any one does not do what he ought, the thing in itself shall be nothing and of no value? 59] My dear, just invert the argument and rather draw this inference: For this very reason Baptism is something and is right, because it has been wrongly received. For if it were not right and true in itself, it could not be misused nor sinned against. The saying is: Abusus non tollit, sed confirmat substantiam, Abuse does not destroy the essence, but confirms it. For gold is not the less gold though a harlot wear it in sin and shame.

60] Therefore let it be decided that Baptism always remains true, retains its full essence, even though a single person should be baptized, and he, in addition, should not believe truly. For God’s ordinance and Word cannot be made variable or be altered by men. 61] But these people, the fanatics, are so blinded that they do not see the Word and command of God, and regard Baptism and the magistrates only as they regard water in the brook or in pots, or as any other man; and because they do not see faith nor obedience, they conclude that they are to be regarded as invalid. 62] Here lurks a concealed seditious devil, who would like to tear the crown from the head of authority and then trample it under foot, and, in addition, pervert and bring to naught all the works and ordinances of God. 63] Therefore we must be watchful and well armed, and not allow ourselves to be directed nor turned away from the Word, in order that we may not regard Baptism as a mere empty sign, as the fanatics dream.

64] Lastly, we must also know what Baptism signifies, and why God has ordained just such external sign and ceremony for the Sacrament by which we are first received into the Christian Church. 65] But the act or ceremony is this, that we are sunk under the water, which passes over us, and afterwards are drawn out again. These two parts, to be sunk under the water and drawn out again, signify the power and operation of Baptism, which is nothing else than putting to death the old Adam, and after that the resurrection of the new man, both of which must take place in us all our lives, so that a truly Christian life is nothing else than a daily baptism, once begun and ever to be continued. For this must be practised without ceasing, that we ever keep purging away whatever is of the old Adam, and that that which belongs to the new man come forth. 66] But what is the old man? It is that which is born in us from Adam, angry, hateful, envious, unchaste, stingy, lazy, haughty, yea, unbelieving, infected with all vices, and having by nature nothing good in it. 67] Now, when we are come into the kingdom of Christ, these things must daily decrease, that the longer we live we become more gentle, more patient, more meek, and ever withdraw more and more from unbelief, avarice, hatred, envy, haughtiness.

68] This is the true use of Baptism among Christians, as signified by baptizing with water. Where this, therefore, is not practised, but the old man is left unbridled, so as to continually become stronger, that is not using Baptism, but striving against Baptism. 69] For those who are without Christ cannot but daily become worse, according to the proverb which expresses the truth, “Worse and worse-the longer, the worse.” 70] If a year ago one was proud and avaricious, then he is much prouder and more avaricious this year, so that the vice grows and increases with him from his youth up. A young child has no special vice; but when it grows up, it becomes unchaste and impure, and when it reaches maturity, real vices begin to prevail the longer, the more.

71] Therefore the old man goes unrestrained in his nature if he is not checked and suppressed by the power of Baptism. On the other hand, where men have become Christians, he daily decreases until he finally perishes. That is truly to be buried in Baptism, and daily to come forth again. 72] Therefore the external sign is appointed not only for a powerful effect, but also for a signification. 73] Where, therefore, faith flourishes with its fruits, there it has no empty signification, but the work [of mortifying the flesh] accompanies it; but where faith is wanting, it remains a mere unfruitful sign.

74] And here you see that Baptism, both in its power and signification, comprehends also the third Sacrament, which has been called repentance, 75] as it is really nothing else than Baptism. For what else is repentance but an earnest attack upon the old man [that his lusts be restrained] and entering upon a new life? Therefore, if you live in repentance, you walk in Baptism, which not only signifies such a new life, but also produces, begins, and exercises it. 76] For therein are given grace, the Spirit, and power to suppress the old man, so that the new man may come forth and become strong.

77] Therefore our Baptism abides forever; and even though some one should fall from it and sin, nevertheless we always have access thereto, that we may again subdue the old man. 78] But we need not again be sprinkled with water; for though we were put under the water a hundred times, it would nevertheless be only one Baptism, although the operation and signification continue and remain. 79] Repentance, therefore, is nothing else than a return and approach to Baptism, that we repeat and practise what we began before, but abandoned.

80] This I say lest we fall into the opinion in which we were for a long time, imagining that our Baptism is something past, which we can no longer use after we have fallen again into sin. The reason is, that it is regarded only according to the external act once performed [and completed]. 81] And this arose from the fact that St. Jerome wrote that repentance is the second plank by which we must swim forth and cross over after the ship is broken, on which we step and are carried across when we come into the Christian Church. 82] Thereby the use of Baptism has been abolished so that it can profit us no longer. Therefore the statement is not correct, or at any rate not rightly understood. For the ship never breaks, because (as we have said) it is the ordinance of God, and not a work of ours; but it happens, indeed, that we slip and fall out of the ship. Yet if any one fall out, let him see to it that he swim up and cling to it till he again come into it and live in it, as he had formerly begun.

83] Thus it appears what a great, excellent thing Baptism is, which delivers us from the jaws of the devil and makes us God’s own, suppresses and takes away sin, and then daily strengthens the new man; and is and remains ever efficacious until we pass from this estate of misery to eternal glory.

84] For this reason let every one esteem his Baptism as a daily dress in which he is to walk constantly, that he may ever be found in the faith and its fruits, that he suppress the old man and grow up in the new. 85] For if we would be Christians, we must practise the work whereby we are Christians. 86] But if any one fall away from it, let him again come into it. For just as Christ, the Mercy-seat, does not recede from us or forbid us to come to Him again, even though we sin, so all His treasure and gifts also remain. If, therefore, we have once in Baptism obtained forgiveness of sin, it will remain every day, as long as we live, that is, as long as we carry the old man about our neck.


14 posted on 04/27/2012 7:13:03 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: Salvation

First of all, I doubt that there are any infants in hell, if, perchance, I am wrong, I doubt they are there because they were not baptized. In the same voice, I doubt there are any infants in heaven just because they were baptized.

If G-d is in the habit of condemning infants to eternity in hell or a lengthy time in a limbo state just because they missed baptism, he is not the G-d of the bible and, mayhap, a god I don’t wish to entrust my eternal salvation to.

Saying that, I have entrusted my eternal salvation to Him and therefore know He would never condemn and infant to hell or any mythical limbo.

Baptism is a voluntary offering to God indicating that you publicly acknowledge that Jesus is your savior and infants can’t voluntarily do anything except eat, sleep and poop.


15 posted on 04/27/2012 7:14:13 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: Salvation

When I was a baby, the Catholic Church emphasized that babies should be Baptized as soon as possible. I think I was maybe three weeks old. However, today... the Church doesn’t really emphasize this much. For your first child, the parents have to attend classes (AFTER the birth of the child). So, our son was closer to four months old. (I say AFTER because our Parish had that restriction). So, I did what my old Catholic school girl friends did... I Baptized them myself at home and then had them “formally” Baptized. My husband Baptized our youngest in a hotel room in China (just in case). It made me feel better. Wether this is sanctioned or not... I know seven old school friends who did just this.


16 posted on 04/27/2012 7:16:45 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: momtothree

I think it’s going back to those old rules.


17 posted on 04/27/2012 7:24:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: lightman

Ir would seem tham many people do NOT realize that there is an imparting of the Holy Spirit to the child. Some children know they are bound for a vocation as a priest or religious at the early age of five.

It’s the grace of Baptism


18 posted on 04/27/2012 7:26:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“... to those old rules”.

What I have been told is that Godparents were essential for two reasons. They assisted in the Catholic upbringing of the child AND the godmother usually held the baby (in the olden days, many of the Moms sat in a pew because they were still not healed from delivery). If parents could take the classes before the birth, that would help. If the parents could schedule the Baptism before the birth, that would help as well. You have your due date and most doctors will not let you go over two weeks past that. So, an earlier Baptism is possible. IMHO.


19 posted on 04/27/2012 7:30:08 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: Salvation

Baptism is a symbol. Water does not save you. Baptism does not save you. The cross does not save you, nor does the Pope, priests, nuns, preachers, the church, or any human living or dead. You can certainly be told about Christ from these people...but that’s where it ends. Your relationship with Christ is personal.


20 posted on 04/27/2012 7:33:49 PM PDT by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: Dallas59

And that personal relationship starts with Baptism. And the sooner the better.

Wouldn’t you want your child to receive graces of the Holy Spirit early on in life?

They they can more easily form that prayerful life with the Lord.


21 posted on 04/27/2012 7:42:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dallas59; Salvation

The person of Christ has a physical body. On this earth He used physical signs to accompany His word. He says that Baptism saves and that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are His very Body and Blood.

I do not worship a disincarnate voice but the Word made flesh.


22 posted on 04/27/2012 7:49:35 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran Ping!

Alleluia! Christ is Risen!

Schamerei are on the attack on this thread just like in the 16th Century. Could use a little back-up!

Old heresies never die, they just form "new" denominations.

23 posted on 04/27/2012 7:56:09 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: Salvation

I said “there is no problem if you have water.”

Maybe you read it over too fast.


24 posted on 04/27/2012 8:02:56 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Secret Agent Man

Must have.


25 posted on 04/27/2012 8:11:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: lightman

As a former Lutheran I can attest to the fact that infants are baptized shortly after birth;I was back in ‘76 and my sister was in ‘94.


26 posted on 04/27/2012 8:16:33 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (I love you so much,Pumpkin. You're the best cat in the world.)
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To: Salvation

I’ll read it..


27 posted on 04/27/2012 8:31:36 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: doc1019
Baptism is a voluntary offering to God indicating that you publicly acknowledge that Jesus is your savior and infants can’t voluntarily do anything except eat, sleep and poop. Oh good, you, like other protestants , are establishing your own rules. Now you see how much easier life can be if YOU make the rules.....PATHETIC
28 posted on 04/27/2012 8:31:46 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: terycarl

Bull, nothing in the bible requires baptism for entrance into heaven. The only requirement is acceptance that Jesus is our Lord and savior.


29 posted on 04/27/2012 8:38:44 PM PDT by doc1019 (Romney will never get my vote!)
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To: Salvation

I remember my parents most fondly for the fact that they baptized me as a baby. While I understand that had I chosen to be baptize as an adult, that, too would have been a valid baptism, it is the greatest gift to be baptized BEFORE it is a decision of an adult mind.

Thank you, mom and dad. You were not perfect, but this is something you did just right.


30 posted on 04/27/2012 8:40:07 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: momtothree

Whenever I see a baby walking down the street, I surreptitiously baptize him just to be safe.


31 posted on 04/27/2012 8:40:21 PM PDT by Krankor
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To: Salvation

Baptism does not save you.


32 posted on 04/27/2012 8:44:34 PM PDT by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: Salvation

Was the thief on the cross baptised? NO
Did he go to heaven? YES


33 posted on 04/27/2012 8:55:46 PM PDT by Craftmore
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To: Craftmore
Was the thief on the cross baptised? NO Did he go to heaven? YES

the new covenant did not begin until the death of Christ.That having been said, Christ (God) can do anything and to attribute one persons salvation to your opinion is a little questionable..

34 posted on 04/27/2012 9:05:42 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: tumblindice

If you’d read the article you wouldn’t be asking the question.


35 posted on 04/27/2012 9:07:08 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: terycarl

But,but but,,Christ died before the thief,therefore according to you,the new covenant should have applied.


36 posted on 04/27/2012 9:09:09 PM PDT by Craftmore
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To: JSDude1

“God’s grace rules for those young among us who don’t know any better.”

And I trust for all the rest of us as well, else we all are lost.


37 posted on 04/27/2012 9:11:16 PM PDT by Elsiejay
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To: Craftmore

Christ forgave the man under the Old Covenant.


38 posted on 04/28/2012 12:43:52 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Craftmore

Christ forgave the man under the Old Covenant. Remember Christ went to Gehenna to release the righteous and to end Gehenna


39 posted on 04/28/2012 12:44:30 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: doc1019; terycarl
The only requirement is acceptance that Jesus is our Lord and savior.

Not correct, this is what Jesus said

Do note that

Salvation comes FROM Christ ie through GRACE alone Christ has mandated baptism, repentance, the Eucharist as WELL as faith.

40 posted on 04/28/2012 12:47:16 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Salvation
If you think your child who only lived one hour is going to Hell because you didn't have it baptized before he/she died, you have no understanding of God at all.

What a cruel doctrine.

41 posted on 04/28/2012 12:52:38 AM PDT by Lakeshark (NbIttoalbl,cRwIdtaa)
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To: Craftmore
Dismas was baptized by desire. Under dire circumstances, he acknowledged Jesus Christ for Who He was and is and rebuked the bad thief for his lack of respect. Others were baptized by dying for the Faith but not having been baptized by water. This is known as Baptism by Blood. Both of these doctrines are not as well understood by many in the pews as once they were but they are true nonetheless.

No, this is NOT an invitation to a game of Scriptural Jeopardy.

42 posted on 04/28/2012 3:22:43 AM PDT by BlackElk ( Dean of Discipline ,Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Burn 'em Bright!)
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To: doc1019
If G-d is in the habit of condemning infants to eternity in hell or a lengthy time in a limbo state just because they missed baptism, he is not the G-d of the bible

Exactly. None of that is Biblical.

43 posted on 04/28/2012 3:36:21 AM PDT by alnick
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To: BlackElk; All

If my memory is correct, did not in the Acts of the Apostles, and I am a Catholic myself, was not whole families baptized? That had to include infants as well.


44 posted on 04/28/2012 4:29:53 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Secret Agent Man; Salvation
From the CCC:

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize,58 by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59

45 posted on 04/28/2012 5:08:47 AM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: doc1019; terycarl; Cronos
Bull, nothing in the bible requires baptism for entrance into heaven. The only requirement is acceptance that Jesus is our Lord and savior.

1 peter 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God* for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I really wish that prots would start reading the Bible, even once in a while would help them.

46 posted on 04/28/2012 5:19:15 AM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: verga

There’s no need to make offensive generalizations like you did - it doesn’t help the discussion.

It’s not as cut and dry as you make it seem. There are some Biblical verses that seem to imply that water baptism is required for salvation, but there are many other verses that speak of salvation with no mention of water baptism. The key is to understand the context of the verses in question.

In the verse you posted, we see that water is seen as a type of instrument for salvation, and was compared to the water in the flood, which “saved” Noah. Of course, the water itself didn’t save Noah, but the ark, which is a figure for Christ. In the same way, our salvation comes from Christ, and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Peter is comparing the water in baptism to the water in the flood, but in both cases, the water itself really isn’t critical piece of salvation. It is the repentant heart; trust in God, and the Holy Spirit, that brings salvation.


47 posted on 04/28/2012 6:48:58 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Lakeshark
Few hours old infant: Hi God I’m here!

God: So sorry but you were not Baptized, so you can’t come in.

Few hours old infant: Well, you must know, being that You Know and See everything that I had a pretty rough birth and things got pretty frantic between my delivery and being rushed into the NICU. You do know that I was rushed to the NICU and died before my parents even had a chance to hold me live alone Baptize me, don’t you?

God: Well I do have rules.

Few hours old infant: So you are condemning me to Hell because of a technicality?

God: Yep. That’s how I roll.

;(

48 posted on 04/28/2012 7:21:01 AM PDT by MD Expat in PA
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To: Craftmore
Was the thief on the cross baptised? NO
Did he go to heaven? YES

It is a very dangerous thing to try to establish a general rule from an exception, particularly since you are not a thief dying on a cross next to Jesus.

49 posted on 04/28/2012 7:38:36 AM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: verga; Cronos

Why is it so difficult for those who require “acceptance” of Jesus to “accept” (believe and trust) those things which Jesus has commanded, namely Baptism and Eucharist?

If “acceptance” depends on my intellectual assent or fervent emotions then “my” acceptance will always be subject to question and found wanting. If on the other hand I simply trust and believe that Jesus’s word accomplishes that for which He sends it that can never be found wanting.


50 posted on 04/28/2012 7:45:00 AM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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