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To: HarleyD; BereanBrain; Iscool
It doesn't matter if there will be some special "Tribulation" or not.

It makes it impossible to understand Revelation especially chapters 4-19 without believing there will be a Tribulation. Jesus Christ discussed the end times in Matthew. The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel discussed the end times as well. IOW, the end times must be important.

Could you be a bit more specific?

Iscool stated it a lot better than I did in his post just a couple before this. The Millennial Reign is the fulfillment of the Jewish understanding of the Messianic Kingdom. The people inhabiting the earth are not believers in glorified bodies. They repopulate the earth prior to the final rebellion.

The supersessionist view that the church is the "nation" that Jesus gave the Kingdom to does not account for these people. It makes understanding Revelation impossible. I'm arguing that these people are the 1/3rd of Israel that survives the Tribulation and the people saved through the testimony of the 144,000 witnesses. They live the promise that God made to Abraham and foretold of in Prophesy before we are all united in the New Jerusalem.

24 posted on 05/14/2012 10:38:08 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights; BereanBrain; Iscool
There are plausible explanations of Revelation but I have yet to find one that I'm content with. As far as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Daniel are concern they are much more easy to reconcile.

That being said, there are certain facts of faith that cannot be thrown out simply trying to explain Revelation. The first, and most important, is that anyone that does not know our Lord Jesus as their Savior is under a curse and the wrath of God rest upon them. God does not bless them. This is stated over and over in both the Old and New Testament. That is simply because the purity of God cannot stand the sight of us. This speaks volumes of the love of God which STILL would try to reach to us despite our wickedness. It also should give us a clue to our self-worth.

The second is all who desire to live a godly life will face persecution. The third is that Christ blood is the ONLY thing that covers our sins-not the blood of goats and pigeons.

Everyone who has known God through the ages has come to know Him exactly in the same way. There is no difference between the way Moses, Abraham, or Jacob were called verses the way you or I were called. We might not have seen a burning bush or a staircase to heaven but our saving faith was exactly the same. God opened our eyes and ears to the truth. God called us out of darkness into a great light to somehow bring glory to His name.

I think all of this talk about the “final battle” is, quiet frankly, silliness. What final battle? Do believers think for one moment that God, who nearly destroyed the world through the flood, swallowed up the rebels of Korah, or rained sulfur on Sodom, is in some epic battle or conflict with Satan? This is the same God who the demons must ask permission to enter a herd of swine. This is the same God who controls nature, time, and death itself. This is not only heretical doctrine but it's also pagan doctrine.

Please consider the fact that in the supersessionist view, which was the church's view for over 1900 years, the “Millennial Reign” Jews simply do not exist. The Jews of Acts, the moment they believed, were happy to call themselves Christians. We who are believers and of Adam's race, both Jews and Gentiles, are ALL adopted into God's family which contains just ONE perfect Son.

God saves us simply so we will bring glory and honor to Him. God, in His mercy, for some unknown reason to execute His plan, decided that He is going to take His time and effort to pour out His blessings on His believers so that He can show what mercy really is. We didn't earn it. We didn't ask for it. God just simply opened our eyes and our spirits cried, “Abba, Father”. And though we are covered in Christ's blood and we are saved through Him, we are still evil and wicked needing His constant attention and improvement which He gladly gives.

Because we represent God, God MUST chasten us to help us conform to the image of His Son. It is all His chastening and turbulence in our lives that causes us to grow as Christians. It isn't because we make a decision for Christ and rush out to actively live a life to Christ. We don't. We would want to sin if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit constantly nagging us in the background.

God doesn't need a special age in which to bring people around nor does He need a Millennial Reign. He is bring people around right around us. And when the fullness of the Gentile is completed, that will be the end-and the beginning.

26 posted on 05/14/2012 5:58:42 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: wmfights
This is an excellent article on replacement theology and the fact that those who buy into it are in grave spiritual danger.

An excerpt:

The epistle of 1 John clearly tells us the method to determine of someone was from God regarding the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The test was whether Jesus Christ literally came in the flesh. Those that believed He did were of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Conversely, those that did not believe that He came in the flesh were not of God, but were of the spirit of antichrist. This is a very simple test that revolved around the literalness of Bible prophecy.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This was aimed at the gnostics which believe that Jesus Christ was just a spirit being that did not have a body, but notice that it was the literal interpretation of the Bible that is what the Apostle John was defending. There was much more than the Lord Jesus came in the flesh because if He was merely a man, He could not redeem mankind. EVERYTHING about the first coming of the Lord Jesus was LITERAL. This is what John is driving at in showing who is from God and who is manifesting the spirit of antichrist. It was over the literalness of Christ’s first coming according to the Bible.

There is really no scripture about Christ’s first coming that was not literal. The following are just a few verses to show the Old Testament scriptures prophesying the Lord’s coming as a man were all literal. There is no spiritualizing the first coming of the Lord Jesus. It is all literal!

Isaiah 7:14 He was born of a virgin Micah 5:2 He was born in Bethlehem
Isaiah 9:1,2 His ministry would be from the Galilee
Isaiah 42:6,7 His healing ministry opened the physical eyes of the blind
Zechariah 9:9 He presented Himself to Israel as King riding on a donkey. Isaiah 53:9 He was sinless
Isaiah 53:10 He was made an offering for sin
Psalm 22:14-17 He died on the cross as described in these verses.
Psalm 16:10 Jesus Christ bodily rose from the dead.

The above verses show what it means that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Any denial of these verses means that this person is of the spirit of antichrist and not of God. For example, how can someone deny the virgin birth, and yet “confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”? He had to be born from a virgin, so He could be the sinless Son of God to redeem mankind? To deny He was born from a virgin was to deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Now let us look at the glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

By applying the test for His first coming, we can determine whether a doctrine of His Second Coming is from God or the spirit of the antichrist. The test is centered on the literalness of His coming. The Old Testament was literal about His first coming, so what changed about the literalness of His Second Coming? Can the first coming of Jesus Christ be literal, and yet, somehow the Second Coming is now switched to being spiritualized? Jesus Christ is coming the second time literally just as His first coming was.

Luke 21:24 Jesus Christ stated that the destruction of Jerusalem and dispersion of the Jews was temporary.
Zechariah 14:3,4 Jerusalem will be the literal location of His Second Coming.
Zechariah 12:6 Jerusalem will be the capital of a Jewish state.
Zechariah 12:6 Israel will be a great military power.
Ezekiel 36:16-24 God will restored the Jews back to Israel in unbelief before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Romans 11:26,27 At the Second Coming all Israel will be saved.
Ezekiel 36:8-15 The land of Israel will be greatly blessed.
Ezekiel 38:8 The Jews will be restored to Israel from all nations in the latter-day.
Daniel 7:13,14 Jesus Christ will return with the “Clouds of Heaven,” His church to establish a kingdom on earth.
Revelation 19:5-9 After the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, His bride will return with Him to Jerusalem.
Revelation 20:3-5 His kingdom will last of 1000 years.
Revelation 19:11-15 He is returning bodily.
Zechariah 14:12 When Jesus Christ returns, He will annihilate the armies gathered to destroy the Jews and Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 43:7 He will rule on the throne of David from His temple on Mount Zion.

There are many more scriptures but the ones posted above show what is needed to believe in the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ. An integral part of Christ’s Second Coming is the restoration of the nation of Israel as He is returning to Jerusalem, and all of Israel will call upon Him as their Savior! This is the time when all Israel and not the church will be saved. How is it possible to spiritualize Romans 11:25-28?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26-27) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

The First and Second Coming of Jesus Christ together:

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zechariah 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Based on Replacement Theology, is one suppose to believe that verse nine is literal, while the following verse is now spiritualized to mean something else? That Ephraim and Jerusalem now mean the church? The Lord Jesus came literally to Jerusalem in verse 9, but somehow Jerusalem in verse 10 is not to be understood literally? These two verses together show the fallacy of Replacement Theology. They both are literal.

Any person that tampers with the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming is playing with spiritual fire and is falling under the danger being condemned as being from the spirit of antichrist. How can someone claim to being led by the Holy Spirit and deny the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming, and in many cases actively hinder the fulfillment of God’s prophetic word? How can someone claim Jesus Christ as his Savior, and yet refuse to see the connection between the everlasting covenant and modern Israel?

The nation of Israel was twice destroyed in 600 BC and 70 AD. The second dispersion lasted for 1900 years, but now Jerusalem is once again the capital of Israel. They speak Hebrew which had been an extinct language. They even have shekels once again for money. The unbelief of Replacement Theology is very, very powerful. With Israel once again a nation, it takes a greater unbelief to deny Israel, then it does to believe the nation is the fulfillment of prophecy and covenant.

The Lord Jesus stated the coming destruction of Jerusalem, in His day, was only temporary until the “times of the Gentiles were fulfilled”. Current events are indicating that the “times of the Gentiles” are coming to an end.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Just as apostates in the Apostle John’s day refused to believe the literalness of Christ’s first coming, now in our day there are huge numbers of people who refuse to believe in the literalness of Christ’s Second Coming. These people are in great spiritual danger. They share the same unbelief as Muslims as they refuse to believe the Bible. The Muslims reject modern Israel as does Replacement Theology. Because of this unbelief, God is in the process of merging these two groups. This can clearly be seen in the rhetoric and actions in many of the Replacement Theology camp. They and Muslims both use the very same rhetoric and arguments against Israel. They both are actively trying to delegitimize Israel.

Islam is being led by the spirit of antichirst, and now many of the Replacement Theology camp have merged with them. They face the same judgment as Islam. Whoever interferes with God’s prophetic plan for Israel faces judgment from the Holy God of Israel. The reason for this is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is directly tied to the nation of Israel. He is returning to Jerusalem!

Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done (To Israel), it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

God keeps all His promises.

27 posted on 05/15/2012 8:42:16 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (" the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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