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Evangelicals Becoming Catholic, why?
CatholicConvert.com ^ | May 10, 2011 | Steve Ray

Posted on 05/17/2012 4:18:46 PM PDT by Salvation

Evangelicals Becoming Catholic, why?

by Steve Ray on May 10, 2011

Below is an interesting YouTube video (really audio) of an Evangelical Radio show in which two Evangelicals discuss why so many Evangelical Protestants are leaving to join the Catholic Church.

The host and guest are trying to be honest in the show entitled  “Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome.” Although towards the end of the video they are making some statements that are historically inaccurate (about Luther and the Popes); nevertheless, their questioning tries to be honest. It is interesting that they are taking note of a large exodus. I am one of those who Crossed the Tiber to Rome.

Furthermore, this was coming from a Protestant network that is decidedly anti-Catholic.  They are willing to discuss openly what has been happening for years now (the exodus of Evangelical ordained ministers to Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches).  They also mention briefly EWTN, the program Journey Home and the moderator Marcus Grodi, a convert from Evangelical Christianity. It is obvious this is all new to them since they didn’t even know how to pronounce Marcus Grodi’s name.

The moderator Ingrid Slater asked Pastor Bob DeWay; “Let’s talk about the problem; what do you think is the seed bed (this is sort of a rhetorical question; everybody knows what a mess Evangelicalism is as a whole today doctrinally speaking).  What is setting people up for this disenchantment and the willingness to look to Roman Catholicism?”

Here are some of the Problems that Bob Deway lists, though they really have no explanation since they are blind to the real problems within Protestantism, which are things that cannot be fixed. If they were fixed they would be Catholics.
(1) The Seeker Movement took the Bible out of churches.
(2) People are not steeped in solid Bible teaching (yeah, but according to whose interpretation?).
(3) Big churches that don’t preach the Bible (who decides what should be taught??).
(4) The influx of mystical practices, contemplative prayer, the labyrinths.
(5) Seminaries that are training therapeutic practitioners rather than theologians.
(6) The idea that we have to have to justify our practices and beliefs from Scripture – according to what Luther and the other reformers – which has now been overlooked.

The moderator then mentioned a book saying, “Coming Home by Fr Peter [Eastern Rite] (I am not even going to use the term father). . . He used to head up Campus Crusade here in the Midwest” Evidently he is now heading up an organization helping Evangelical ministers come into the Eastern rite Churches.  If you want to know why he made his move from Evangelical Protestantism you can listen to the video.

For years you’d hear Evangelicals boast of the fact that their churches were filled [with] ex-Catholics.  But in too many cases the Evangelical churches are just the exit ramp that eventually leaves them disillusioned and abandoning the faith altogether. Now the tide is changing.  Some Evangelicals seem to be oblivious to the fact of this large exodus of Evangelical ministers and lay people.

A year ago, Karl Keating of Catholic Answers Live said he believed there were now more Evangelicals or Fundamentalists leaving Protestantism to become Catholic than the other way around. Even Evangelicals admit that there are notable Protestants becoming Catholics but no notable Catholics becoming Protestants.

I could take exception to several of Pastor Bob’s statements and argue decisively against them, but that is not the point of my posting this video.



TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; convert; evangelicals; faith
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To: editor-surveyor
the tares are leaving

Exactly! NO ONE who knows the Gospel ever goes to the RC, they leave because they finally found The Truth! Tares, spot on!

101 posted on 05/18/2012 5:31:40 AM PDT by presently no screen name (God First!! VAB: Voting Against Both---> Romney and Obama.)
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To: Melas; SuziQ
You would always be welcomed in a Catholic Church. Doesn't mean you can take part in the Sacraments, but you're certainly welcome to attend Mass! If you go, engage the priest in conversation; ask him questions. You never know where it might lead.

That's right...A priest may be able to qualify your first marriages for annulment...You could be home free...

102 posted on 05/18/2012 6:05:13 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: MarkBsnr

To my shame, I am one of them.

&&&
Oh, my, there is not shame but joy in your coming back. Welcome, FRiend.


103 posted on 05/18/2012 6:54:49 AM PDT by Bigg Red (Pray for our republic.)
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To: Salvation

Who, having tried the old wine would want the new again?


104 posted on 05/18/2012 7:01:38 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: Salvation

Who, having tried the old wine would want the new again?


105 posted on 05/18/2012 7:01:53 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: kearnyirish2

“You’re right, especially when they want to move on to the second husband/wife.”

Guessin’ you don’t know much about the Baptists. They’d have less problem having a serial killer teach a SS class or preach than a divorce-and-remarried person.

I know as many, probably more, divorced-and-remarried Catholics as I do protestants.

All denominations have their ideal standards; few members follow them 100%.


106 posted on 05/18/2012 7:03:13 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: Fido969

Good question.

And besides, wasn’t the water made wine at the Wedding of Cana BETTER than what the groom have originally supllied?


107 posted on 05/18/2012 8:38:33 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: presently no screen name

And the passionate (first against Christians and then for them) Paul’s words justifying Himself - in which he acknowledged it sounded like speaking as a fool, (2Cor. 11:16,23) was driven by his love for this most troublesome of his churches, (2Cor. 12:11-15) imploring the Corinthians to come to their senses, rather than following after shameless self-promoting “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ,” (2 Corinthians 11:13) who excluded Paul as being part of the class of apostles, and who hijacked the church.

Sometimes parents have to remind their rebellious offspring who birthed them, changed their diapers, and wisely counsel and guided, when in their pride they spurn their counsel and listen to vain philosophers.

The Lord’s own appeal to the Jews to come to its senses and recognize Him as the one true God was also done out of love, not insecurity (as atheists charge), while the charge of “massaged” Bible texts is part of the liberal school of Biblical interpretation, which much or most of RCM subscribes to.

But i think there are many RCs who resent Paul as he seems too much like a Protestant: an evangelistic preacher who emphasized faith as appropriating justification, though a faith that effected obedience, (Rm. 2:13; 4:1-7) and only ordained bishops/elders, (Titus 1:5-7) and did not pray to the departed, etc., and emphasized the body of Christ as being the church. (1Cor. 11:17-33ff)

And who exampled much independence from the other apostles in his preaching, writing and ministry, and was very restrictive in his affirmation of them, and who even rebuked Peter, and while implicitly affirming Peter as having prominence among the apostles, yet he never directed or otherwise reminded the churches under his care to look to Peter as their particular supreme corporate magistrate, and did not even mention him among his many friends in Rome. (Rm. 16)

Moreover, the primary Christian theologian and human author of most of the N.T. never actually mentioned Mary the mother of Jesus - who, in the gospel tradition is quite marginal - is literally emphasized more devotionally by many Catholics than the Lord Jesus.


108 posted on 05/18/2012 11:40:45 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: johngrace

“Hi stpio- This visions Or prophecies are your own? The visions or prophecies line up with what some of the Catholic Saints have predicted. What I find interesting is that the book of Daniel intrepretation with the future abomination in these prophecies.”

~ ~ ~

john, hi, I have a devotion to prophecy, my “conversion” came about because of private revelation. I am NOT a prophet. I shared the link to the message, the two prophets are Cletus and Vern. Their messages have ended, each year they receive one or two new. See the latest at the link. http://www.godspeakswillyoulisten.org/ These messages are full of Scripture reference as you read along to confirm what is ahead. MO, they help you see the entire picture and answer many questions.

Our brothers and sisters in Christ should look at Daniel,
the repeated about the “continual sacrifice” and the “abomination of desolation” written together. Only in Catholicism, there is no “continual sacrifice” in Protestantism or Judaism. The “continual sacrifice” is the Holy sacrifice of the Mass. The messages from Heaven and the saints of old tell us the “AOD” takes place when the Anti-Christ takes away the Eucharist, the words of consecration changed. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass will be offered in secret and later when the persecution gets worse, at the refuges. Remember history, like the first Christians in the catacombs.


109 posted on 05/18/2012 11:43:03 AM PDT by stpio
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To: NELSON111

“I’ll get my house in order then worry about others” - sadly that is not shared by the opposition which preaches a church, while we preach a faith that we seek to live up to.


110 posted on 05/18/2012 11:58:59 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: johngrace

See last post. I go by formal surveys, which in time would confirm your anecdotal story, which of course, may have been a years reaping, while an evangelical church elsewhere could have the same or more of former RCs.

Up here where there are many more evang. churches than in my youth, that they would not have grown as they did except by RC converts, while she has closed many churches.


111 posted on 05/18/2012 12:13:49 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: stpio

These are not hard to come by, with varied messages, all professing to be of God, yet fail, while i must go by the “more sure of prophecy,” the Scriptures which reprove Rome, and in which the commemoration of the Lord’s supper is shown by how the participants treat the members of His body the church:http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Bible/1Cor._11.html#11


112 posted on 05/18/2012 12:21:01 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: daniel1212

“Moreover, the primary Christian theologian and human author of most of the N.T. never actually mentioned Mary the mother of Jesus - who, in the gospel tradition is quite marginal - is literally emphasized more devotionally by many Catholics than the Lord Jesus.”

~ ~ ~

Daniel,

Mary knew the Gospel writers. It is her humility always
pointing to Our Lord. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ. There are some verses in the Old Testament which speak of Mary but mainly...

God’s revelation about who Mary is and you see even in our time would come LATER. In these 2000 years...via the Church, the saints and prophecy (private revelation).

I keep sharing do not take it personal. The “reformers”
mistakenly follow the evil one Satan, distancing themselves
from Catholicism by rejecting Mary. You didn’t decide it!~

Mary can’t appear to Protestants yet, though God can make exceptions yes, because you all believe HERESIES. Mary will appear, maybe (MO)...I wish...at the Great Warning which is “soon” but for sure after the Great Warning she will appear to you all. Non-Catholic Christians will
have accepted the faith. Sadly, there will be a group
who will still say no.

She is your mother, everyone’s mother...believe in her
love and help now. Speak to her in prayer. It would make Our Lord very happy. There is a Scripture verse, new to me,
from the Book of Ecclesiasticus:

3:5
And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up a treasure.

It applies personally in regards to your earthly mother
and your heavenly mother, Mary. Also, think of the “his” as Jesus. It’s really true.


113 posted on 05/18/2012 12:21:29 PM PDT by stpio
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To: Scoutdad
"So you equate those people who violate the most basic tenets of scripture and prove with their actions that they have no love for God with many others who, by their lives, show that they have a relationship with Christ?"

On the issue of authority, yes. Although the core beliefs and outcomes are dramatically different between secular humanists like Biden and Pelosi and Evangelicals the fact that they both look first to themselves and their individual experiences, educations and reason as chief determiner of what is truth and what is not points to the problem with their shared approach.

114 posted on 05/18/2012 12:23:17 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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To: daniel1212

I have been over this with you in other threads.

I am not going to bother with anti-Catholic links and it is
foolish to try and use Catholic teaching and writings, the
Bible, a Catholic book to attack the Church.

And on prophecy, Scripture says despise not prophecy.

God would not be silent in this time. Prophecy makes God’s
plan more explicit. You gotta believe. There is one
end time, not one for Protestants and one for Catholics.
All the Protestant prophetic is gently preparing our brothers and sisters in Christ to accept the faith.


115 posted on 05/18/2012 12:27:55 PM PDT by stpio
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To: daniel1212
Dear Brother Dan- You like to lather up the Lawyering with "facts" .

You play gotcha games with historical statements. That means you are acting like a lawyer.

When you go around take old 12 th century statements from a Pope you are lawyering it up my brother. Nowhere in the statement does it mean what you are trying to prove.

It is a general statement. It does not specifically say Daniel 1212 or Johngrace is going to hell.

Take for instant today's comparision. Billy Graham states at an event that if you believe in Jesus Christ you will have eternal life. Nowhere is he saying that Daniel1212 or Johngrace is going to Hell. Nor will you find Billy Graham or the Pope use a specific name to say someone went there. It is General statement to learn from in the Holy Spirit.

Both of these great men know it is always up to God.

Praise Jesus! Freeper Cheers!!

116 posted on 05/18/2012 12:37:32 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212
Dear Brother Dan- You like to lather up the Lawyering with "facts" .

You play gotcha games with historical statements. That means you are acting like a lawyer.

When you go around take old 12 th century statements from a Pope you are lawyering it up my brother. Nowhere in the statement does it mean what you are trying to prove.

It is a general statement. It does not specifically say Daniel 1212 or Johngrace is going to hell.

Take for instant today's comparision. Billy Graham states at an event that if you believe in Jesus Christ you will have eternal life. Nowhere is he saying that Daniel1212 or Johngrace is going to Hell. Nor will you find Billy Graham or the Pope use a specific name to say someone went there. It is General statement to learn from in the Holy Spirit.

Both of these great men know it is always up to God.

Praise Jesus! Freeper Cheers!!

117 posted on 05/18/2012 12:37:32 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: MarkBsnr
"How else can you explain multiple versions of each book; further, how else can you explain the selection of which particular version?"

What is the color of the robe the Roman Soldiers placed upon Jesus? Was it Scarlet (Matthew), Purple (Mark & John) or White / Brilliant (Luke)? Each color is symbolic, but different in meaning.

118 posted on 05/18/2012 12:38:01 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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To: MarkBsnr

“My point is that Paul’s Epistles did not ‘have’ to be massaged, and I never said that.”

I understood that in the light of your statement that “If these were the best (after massaging), then what were the worst?” Meaning (i presumed, sorry if wrongly so) that Paul’s words were in need of redactors to make them acceptable or conformable, and your response was to Kosta’s allegation that “Paul’s writings are clearly “harmonized” in the Nicene Creed in the beginning (where it adds to Paul’s words that the Father and the Son are of the same essence) as well as in the part where it says that Christ raised himself (rather than being raised by God, as Paul says), indicating that Paul was “close” but not on the mark.”

The existence of multiple versions of each NT book does not necessitate that this was due to deficiency in Paul’s writing, and thus needing redactors, but it certainly could be due to poor copying and subsequent attempts to reconcile them, but i reject that this was due to attempts to make each selected NT book to conflate with each other as originally penned.

Thanks for explaining the reason for your response.


119 posted on 05/18/2012 12:43:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: Melas
From the outside looking in, the Catholic church always seemed to have a sense of holiness that protestants lacked.

Satan isn't the great deceiver for nothing. All of the things that the Catholic Church has appeals to the 5 senses. Stained glass windows, holy water, candles, incense, Gregorian chants, priest's cassocks, statues everywhere, etc. This all gives it the appearance of legitimacy, and billions of people over the centuries have been deceived because of it. As a matter of fact, this is probably Satan's greatest work of deception ever.

Matthew 7:14 King James Version (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
120 posted on 05/18/2012 12:57:22 PM PDT by crosshairs
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To: stpio
Malachi 1:

11 "My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty"

This verse is brought up by Justin Martyr who met one or two of the apostles as a boy. He uses this to talk about the Mass being perpetual from Holy Thursday when Christ initiated it. Totally amazing. It is one of many things that brought me back to the Church.

Especially when I see the priest using the incense with the priest offering the bread above his head looking above. Also along the reasoning is also there was only one temple for offerings in the old testament.

So how could this be in Malachi unless it is the Mass offering which has been continual for Two thousand years. Notice in every place too. There are churches on every continent. This fills the bill on this prophecy.

121 posted on 05/18/2012 12:59:18 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212

So sorry! Double post.


122 posted on 05/18/2012 1:01:30 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: All

Paul gets trashed, disbelieved because his words are too
hard to hear. Paul is speaking of the most Holy Eucharist.

1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the BODY of the Lord.

And on the various Bible interpretations even some of the modern Catholic Bibles. There are changes. If you can’t read Latin, the closest to Our Lord’s words would be the English translation of the first Bible, St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, called the Douay-Rheims Bible.

http://www.drbo.org/

A brilliant Catholic apologist, John Salsa recommends the
Douay-Rheims.


123 posted on 05/18/2012 1:03:13 PM PDT by stpio
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To: ansel12
"Evidently that is normal for Catholics since the majority of them vote for Pelosi and Biden and their party platform, in support of their decisions."

There are over 34 million registered Catholic voters in this country. President Obama got 12 million Catholic votes, or 54% of the votes cast by Catholics. The story no one talks about is the fact that Obama only got a little more than 1/3 of the actual Catholic vote with the an equal number of Catholics voting for "none of the above". I have no reason to believe it is any different in congressional elections.

124 posted on 05/18/2012 1:03:59 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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To: johngrace

“Malachi 1:

11 “My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty”

This verse is brought up by Justin Martyr who met one or two of the apostles as a boy. He uses this to talk about the Mass being perpetual from Holy Thursday when Christ initiated it. Totally amazing. It is one of many things that brought me back to the Church.

Especially when I see the priest using the incense with the priest offering the bread above his head looking above. Also along the reasoning is also there was only one temple for offerings in the old testament.

So how could this be in Malachi unless it is the Mass offering which has been continual for Two thousand years. Notice in every place too. There are churches on every continent. This fills the bill on this prophecy.”

~ ~ ~

You say it so well, better than I can. I was gone from
the faith most of my adult life. I didn’t understand about
the Eucharist (40 plus years of bad catechesis). But, when I finally did by a “grace”, I can see why they are so many martyrs for the Eucharist.

I wish, I pray, our brothers and sisters in Christ would ask
Our Lord in prayer, are you truly present in the Catholic
consecrated host?


125 posted on 05/18/2012 1:23:20 PM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio; johngrace
Here is the original Justin Martyr statements:

" Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.'"

"It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

All going back to Malachi 1

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

126 posted on 05/18/2012 1:28:39 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html


127 posted on 05/18/2012 1:29:24 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation

“Excellent point. However, if I find out that they are a baptized Catholic, I will always invite them to the next Mass, evening with Faith Formation 101, Sctiputre Study, or whatever.”

Sure. As a practical matter I’d take an on-fire-for-Christ Baptist for a son-in-law, neighbor, or friend, over a CINO liberal any day.

Sure, I might prefer a on-fire-for-Christ Catholic, but at this point in time in history, I’m willing to make do.


128 posted on 05/18/2012 1:30:16 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (I will never vote for Romney. Ever.)
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To: Natural Law

I’m afraid we’ll never really see eye to eye. God, through his Word and the Holy Spirit gave/gives direction to us, His children. He gave us an outline, although not overly detailed, of the structure of the local church with the offices of deacons and elders, and the various offices (apostle/prophet/ teacher/evangelist/pastor). You seem to think that “Evangelicals” can believe and act on whatever grabs them. Well, my friend, that’s exactly why the Lord established these offices, to direct believers. Are there differences between say, a Baptist or Presbyterian, yes. Do those differences go to the critical issues of the Christian faith? No.

I think we all, whether Baptist, Presbyterian or Catholic hold to the basic tenets of the faith - our sinfulness, the deity of Christ, the blood atonement and resurrection and salvation through faith in the propitiating work of Christ. As Paul said in I Corinthians, “I am determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” This is the heart of the Gospel message and the true heart of God. You disparage great men of the faith when you say that people like Billy Graham or George Muller were following themselves and their experiences when they went out and did great things for God, similar to Savonarola, when he opposed the curia for the corruption in their ranks and St. Francis, who marched through the ranks of the Muslim Saracens and presented himself to the Sultan in an attempt to present the Gospel.

What do these men have in common? It appears that they all accomplished great things under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. It wasn’t feelings or education or reason that drove these men, it was obedience to God. And I daresay that the Lord gave each one of them a strong knowledge of the Word and wise, strong men to provide Godly counsel. There is NOTHING similar between those clowns and men who conduct lives pleasing to the Lord.


129 posted on 05/18/2012 1:49:05 PM PDT by Scoutdad
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To: Scoutdad
"I’m afraid we’ll never really see eye to eye. God, through his Word and the Holy Spirit gave/gives direction to us, His children."

You are right, we will never agree. Because there are, by some counts, over 30,000 denominations of Protestants, differentiated by doctrinal and interpretation issues, one has to believe that either the Holy Spirit is whispering different things to different people or many of His children are following an errant theology taught by errant leaders.

130 posted on 05/18/2012 2:19:32 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
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To: Melas

My pastor one Sunday advised those who are married outside the Church to keep attending Mass regularly even though they cannot receive Communion. He said that they still benefit from attending Mass, and that one day circumstances in their lives may change and they can marry in the Church and begin receiving Holy Communion once again. My sister was married outside of the Church 25 years ago, and she and her husband, who is not Catholic, both attend Mass every Sunday without fail.


131 posted on 05/18/2012 2:22:27 PM PDT by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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To: Salvation

My husband was very upset when he heard that 53% of Catholics voted for Obama in 2008. I tried to explain to him that many people identify themselves as Catholics because they were baptized Catholic but are not practicing Catholics or who do not follow Church teachings. I suspect that there were many of those who were included in the 53%. Not one person in my family, who are all Catholics, voted for Obama.


132 posted on 05/18/2012 2:32:42 PM PDT by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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To: ansel12

I am Catholic and consider Biden and Pelosi CINOs (Catholics in name only). I would never vote for either of them or anyone of their ilk.


133 posted on 05/18/2012 2:34:27 PM PDT by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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To: johngrace

“When you go around take old 12 th century statements from a Pope you are lawyering it up my brother. Nowhere in the statement does it mean what you are trying to prove.”

Sorry, but there is a disconnect here. You were responding to the survey data, and i do not know where 12th century statements fit in.

But as for showing contrasts via historical quotes, that is entirely fitting in response to the oft repeated emphasis upon consistency and history by RCS, as a premise for the authenticity of their supremacist exclusivist claims. If we are going to make such, then we should not complain when they are fairly challenged.


134 posted on 05/18/2012 2:43:58 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: stpio

Unlike your your SSPX brethren, i do doctrinally hold that the sign gifts have not ceased, that God can do as He ever did, but that such claims are subject to testing by Scripture, which reproves Rome, while your own brethren have question you.


135 posted on 05/18/2012 2:50:01 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: presently no screen name
Paul himself was a “pushy guy with a chip on his shoulder”, and a large “inferiority complex a mile wide,”

Well, God thought he was just perfect for spreading the Good News, The Gospel - He could have picked anyone and He picked Paul.

God picked a lot more than Paul - before and since. But certainly God did pick him. That does not diminish or dismiss anything of what I said.

He knew his heart, his undying obedience and unending search for Truth and Gospel first. So much for what 'man thinks'.

I take it that you are unfamiliar with Paul's conversion. Paul was not seeking for the Truth or the Gospel. He was an upper class Pharisee, bent on destroying it. He did not search for them - God revealed it to him. You appear to have gotten everything in your first sentence wrong.

So much for the thinking that went into your post, man.

When Mark gets shipwrecked, beaten and left for dead and thrown in jail for the Gospel sake - perhaps he has earned the right to speak about an inferiority complex and one being pushy.

Why don't you read Acts and Paul's Epistles and see where Paul himself says these things. The passages where he laments how the Council of Jerusalem thinks of him as less and all through the account of his Apostleship, he recounts over and over how pushy he was and how many times he got run out of town or escaped by the skin of his teeth by his own actions.

I am not making judgement on Paul - he is making the case upon himself.

I love how the Bahble Bleevers don't get what the Bible actually says. But then, I think of Paul and all the Apostles as real men with real emotions, motivations and with all the boldness, fear, caution, and devotion that comes with being a man. I don't think of Paul as a god or demiurge.

I believe that Paul was a great bishop of the Church and largely responsible for selling the Church to the Greeks and bringing Jews into the fold. I do not believe in Paul being the successor of Christ and the one to whom Christians must turn - that is the legacy of the Reformational evil that was loosed upon the world.

136 posted on 05/18/2012 2:51:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Bigg Red
To my shame, I am one of them.

&&& Oh, my, there is not shame but joy in your coming back. Welcome, FRiend.

Thank you. I came back more than 15 years ago; it is something that I will confess to the Almighty on my Judgement - that I left in the first place, and I pray He forgives me for it.

137 posted on 05/18/2012 2:53:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Natural Law
"How else can you explain multiple versions of each book; further, how else can you explain the selection of which particular version?"

What is the color of the robe the Roman Soldiers placed upon Jesus? Was it Scarlet (Matthew), Purple (Mark & John) or White / Brilliant (Luke)? Each color is symbolic, but different in meaning.

Same with the inscription above His head. Same with the events on Resurrection Sunday.

We Catholics use the operand 'and'. Our separated brethren use the operand 'or', and select which 'or' based upon what they happen to believe or would like to believe at the moment.

138 posted on 05/18/2012 2:57:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: daniel1212
“My point is that Paul’s Epistles did not ‘have’ to be massaged, and I never said that.”

I understood that in the light of your statement that “If these were the best (after massaging), then what were the worst?” Meaning (i presumed, sorry if wrongly so) that Paul’s words were in need of redactors to make them acceptable or conformable, and your response was to Kosta’s allegation that “Paul’s writings are clearly “harmonized” in the Nicene Creed in the beginning (where it adds to Paul’s words that the Father and the Son are of the same essence) as well as in the part where it says that Christ raised himself (rather than being raised by God, as Paul says), indicating that Paul was “close” but not on the mark.”

The selection process was rather secretive and we do not have the options, nor do we have the texts of those options. Clearly there was poor copying. There was also pseudoepigraphy - if Peter's Epistles were written in the second century, then they certainly reflected the Church's (or the writer's) thoughts at the moment. We don't know if the Council at Nicea had any originals. If not, then what did they have?

With all that said, we still believe that the Holy Spirit guided these bishops into all Truth and they selected the books of the NT.

The existence of multiple versions of each NT book does not necessitate that this was due to deficiency in Paul’s writing, and thus needing redactors, but it certainly could be due to poor copying and subsequent attempts to reconcile them, but i reject that this was due to attempts to make each selected NT book to conflate with each other as originally penned.

That is a valid speculation, however we have no idea if the Council had the originals in the first place, so we cannot place any order or odds upon the realities of that or similar speculations.

139 posted on 05/18/2012 3:04:57 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Natural Law

Catholic Conservatives can assume that it was a good thing that the registered Catholic voters that did not vote, did not vote, a reasonable guess is that they would have gone more than 54% for Obama, let the non-voters and non-absentee voters, stay home. The Democrats know what they are doing when they try to drag them to the voting booths.


140 posted on 05/18/2012 3:20:49 PM PDT by ansel12 (When immutable definition of Bible marriage of One Man, One Woman, is in jeopardy, call the Mormon.)
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To: Salvation

-—year ago, Karl Keating of Catholic Answers Live said he believed there were now more Evangelicals or Fundamentalists leaving Protestantism to become Catholic than the other way around.-—

Glad to hear it. Bookmarking.


141 posted on 05/18/2012 3:22:37 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (hViva Christo Rey!)
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To: MayflowerMadam

“I know as many, probably more, divorced-and-remarried Catholics as I do protestants.”

I probably do, too; the article was about Catholics who join another denomination. Many divorced-and-remarried Catholics don’t even bother.


142 posted on 05/18/2012 3:23:59 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: johngrace
Especially when I see the priest using the incense with the priest offering the bread above his head looking above. Also along the reasoning is also there was only one temple for offerings in the old testament.

You don't mean the temple where the curtain was cut in half allowing the people direct access to God, without a priest, do you???

And you certainly don't mean the temple that replaced the OT temple, the body of the believer, do you???



143 posted on 05/18/2012 3:36:17 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Scoutdad

“We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.” — Benjamin Franklin

This quote came to mind as I read your post, as the worldly forces of an immoral society, corrupt and immoral politicians, and the evils of the muslim religion attacking Christians everywhere.


144 posted on 05/18/2012 3:38:13 PM PDT by 21twelve
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To: daniel1212

-—know it. The reality is that while the vast majority of western RCs are liberal, and become conservative if they join evangelical churches.——

Regular mass attendance is the divider between conservative and liberal Catholics.

I’ve observed that many good Catholics switch to Evangelical churches for good reasons. They don’t know why they’re in church. They’re looking for an active community. But this is a function of poor catechesis. Ministries like EWTN and Catholic Answers appear to be filling the gap.


145 posted on 05/18/2012 3:40:27 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (hViva Christo Rey!)
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To: Iscool

Iscool!! He is alive!!


146 posted on 05/18/2012 3:50:26 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: murron
My sister was married outside of the Church 25 years ago, and she and her husband, who is not Catholic, both attend Mass every Sunday without fail.

Why would they???  You're religion teaches that without eating the wafer, there is no eternal life...Why waste their time???

147 posted on 05/18/2012 3:55:35 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: MarkBsnr
I believe that Paul was a great bishop of the Church and largely responsible for selling the Church to the Greeks and bringing Jews into the fold.

I don't believe Paul sold anything...He preached the words of God, with God's power...

148 posted on 05/18/2012 4:04:55 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
Photobucket

If this picture means cool what does your "is cool" mean?

149 posted on 05/18/2012 4:05:31 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: daniel1212

“Unlike your your SSPX brethren, i do doctrinally hold that the sign gifts have not ceased, that God can do as He ever did, but that such claims are subject to testing by Scripture, which reproves Rome, while your own brethren have question you.”

~ ~ ~

Please be specific or put my words in quotes.

Are you talking about disbelief in private revelation? It never works rejecting Catholicism by using the Church and her writings and now, your using Catholics themselves.

Catholics can believe or not believe private revelation.
When the private revelation has been officially condemned,
then no. The Church is prudent, because of our times and so
many messages from Heaven, we don’t know yet their decision
on many of them, the messages to Cletus and Verne are among them. Realize, the major divine “events” prophesied haven’t taken place yet.

You don’t accept the message about the end time so you’re rejecting it. If you took the time...look at the link, God Speaks Will You Listen is full of Scripture reference to confirm what the messages say.

Read the footnote on the verse you mentioned. There was
no Gospel yet when Paul was speaking to Timothy.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice.

[16] All scripture,: Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.

http://www.drbo.org/


150 posted on 05/18/2012 4:48:35 PM PDT by stpio
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